Depression As A Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth)

[Iron]

Perhaps personalized anger (directed towards specific people) goes away at the level of development you are alluding to. But it is likely that anger at injustice, exploitation etc remains as a general form of righteous anger.

If one has reached a high level of empathy and emotional development, I doubt if sadness can be eliminated. I would think it would be natural to feel sad at the suffering of others while acknowledging and accepting such suffering as lessons in their life path. Such sadness would perhaps be a pure emotional function in contrast to the type of sadness or disappointment that comes from a sense of unfulfilled expectation of others which I think is an example of the intellectual center function of comparison working along with the emotional center.

Yes, it was the negative aspect of those feelings I was talking about indeed.
I agree that such feelings would be changed in a integrated man like Dabrowski talked about, and understand that such expectations are one example of wrong work of centers.

An yes Kenlee and Tigersoap, very true, seems that people are too burn out to even react...
People say in my face that they dont care. They care about things in the context they are inserted. If the person is a undergrad, they care about the money the government is spending on education, but if I talk about how brutal murders between couples and fathers murdering their own children, they say that its not their problem.
Or the person is politically inclined. Everything related is outrageous and deserves action, but USA destroying the world and concerns about what you eat are paranoia.
It seems to me that even those who can be aroused, can only be aroused by a definite set of events.

Thanks for the response kenlee, it was helpful.

 

[Maat]

I have a question, and since this thread is also related to the role of the emotional center in the work, I think here may be the appropriate place.

Well, here it is... if on the course of studies, evolution and self observation, one realizes with all their being that human beings are reaction machines, can not be anything else unless they do some work and merely respond mechanically to situations,

This has been my observation as well. Actually it may be that the majority of people these days have even lost what little power they do have which is to even react to things. At least reacting to things has a degree of freedom in it to respond one way or the other and it requires a certain amount of sensitivity.

What I am observing is that many people have even lost that little bit of sensitivity and freedom to even react. So they are even less then reaction machines and more like passive automatons. They don't complain about anything, don't feel anything, don't think beyond cliches and don't get indignant at all regarding how they are getting screwed daily by the pathocrats in power. They'll do as they are told by any authority figure without any thought or question and will endlessly "adapt" to any situation as it goes from bad to worse, no matter how bad it gets.

In this regard, I think it's important to remember this great article :
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/152054-Our-Learned-Helplessness

Hoping i'm not off topic here

 

[Risen]

MMMM, I can't access that link. Is it off limits to some?
*edit* Okay, I got to it by typing it in.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/152054-Our-Learned-Helplessness

 

[go2]

I have a question, and since this thread is also related to the role of the emotional center in the work, I think here may be the appropriate place.

Well, here it is... if on the course of studies, evolution and self observation, one realizes with all their being that human beings are reaction machines, can not be anything else unless they do some work and merely respond mechanically to situations, I think its only logical to assume that this man or woman that realizes this can not afford to be angry, or really sad or disapointed with his fellow man.
I may be short sighted in this but I think that the reason of much of our negative emotions towards another is due to high expectations of another, and if the another is just a machine, maybe there is not a lot to expect other than programs running amok.

Perhaps personalized anger (directed towards specific people) goes away at the level of development you are alluding to. But it is likely that anger at injustice, exploitation etc remains as a general form of righteous anger.

If one has reached a high level of empathy and emotional development, I doubt if sadness can be eliminated. I would think it would be natural to feel sad at the suffering of others while acknowledging and accepting such suffering as lessons in their life path. Such sadness would perhaps be a pure emotional function in contrast to the type of sadness or disappointment that comes from a sense of unfulfilled expectation of others which I think is an example of the intellectual center function of comparison working along with the emotional center.

Isn't anger a negative emotion?

Isn’t all anger righteous anger, at least for the one who is angry?

Are you saying anger is justified if it is directed at an abstraction, Obyvatel?

Doesn’t negative emotion close the gate leading from the higher centers through the emotional center?

How can I manifest empathy or compassion when my emotional function is clouded by righteous anger?

I have experienced a noticeable decrease in righteous anger since seeing and acknowledging my own lack of empathy and compassion. It is an odd discovery that I have been projecting my lack of empathy and compassion onto others, which justified my righteous anger.

It seems to me sorrow is a pure and positive emotion, rather than sadness which is sentimental. The world is a place of sorrow, but help is on the way.

 

[Maat]

go2, it's interesting you made this observation just after I've post the link to "our learned helpleness"
(thank you opossum for having fix it, I should have messed up the code)

I tend to have your view a few years ago and it seems to be a "be nice" program to me now. Maybe the difference, as I can say from you're writing, is that me I very rarely get angry.

Overall I think anger is nor positive or negative, it depends on the context.

Maybe what you call righteous anger is not in an "objective" way. I don't know...

fwiw

 

[go2]

go2, it's interesting you made this observation just after I've post the link to "our learned helpleness"
(thank you opossum for having fix it, I should have messed up the code)

I tend to have your view a few years ago and it seems to be a "be nice" program to me now. Maybe the difference, as I can say from you're writing, is that me I very rarely get angry.

Overall I think anger is nor positive or negative, it depends on the context.

Maybe what you call righteous anger is not in an "objective" way. I don't know...

fwiw

I think anger is a step up from apathy, but it is another magician's trick to keep us in mechanical chains of different brand. It is not necessary to be angry to stop the make nice machine. Anger is an automatic mechanical reaction to what I dislike. I do not wish to like or dislike. I do not wish to be an automatic reaction machine. I do not wish to go around kicking other machines. Judging and kicking machines accomplishes nothing permanent. I have run out of time and energy to waste indulging in righteous anger. We need all the energy and time left to Work on transformation of machines into Real Men and Real Women.

 

[anart]

I think anger is a step up from apathy, but it is another magician's trick to keep us in mechanical chains of different brand. It is not necessary to be angry to stop the make nice machine. Anger is an automatic mechanical reaction to what I dislike. I do not wish to like or dislike. I do not wish to be an automatic reaction machine. I do not wish to go around kicking other machines. Judging and kicking machines accomplishes nothing permanent. I have run out of time and energy to waste indulging in righteous anger. We need all the energy and time left to Work on transformation of machines into Real Men and Real Women.

Hi go2, it sounds like you are engaging in some black and white thinking concerning anger. Anger is actually a very important emotion - it is a natural defense. Shutting it down because you don't 'like it' doesn't mean that you are controlling it, it is still controlling you because that energy has to go somewhere and unexpressed anger tends to sicken a person in one way or another. Also, all anger doesn't result in 'kicking other machines' - a person can be angry without having it control them - it can fuel them, it can guide them and it can warn them, it doesn't have to 'take control'.

 

[Alana]

Hi go2, it sounds like you are engaging in some black and white thinking concerning anger. Anger is actually a very important emotion - it is a natural defense. Shutting it down because you don't 'like it' doesn't mean that you are controlling it, it is still controlling you because that energy has to go somewhere and unexpressed anger tends to sicken a person in one way or another. Also, all anger doesn't result in 'kicking other machines' - a person can be angry without having it control them - it can fuel them, it can guide them and it can warn them, it doesn't have to 'take control'.

Exactly. It is how we use anger that is important in the Work we do, not whether we feel it or not. How can we not? We are trying to be healthy feeling/thinking/moving humans after all, before anything else. And anger, as anart says, it can become the fuel for the energy you speak of:

We need all the energy and time left to Work on transformation of machines into Real Men and Real Women.

 

[go2]

I think anger is a step up from apathy, but it is another magician's trick to keep us in mechanical chains of different brand. It is not necessary to be angry to stop the make nice machine. Anger is an automatic mechanical reaction to what I dislike. I do not wish to like or dislike. I do not wish to be an automatic reaction machine. I do not wish to go around kicking other machines. Judging and kicking machines accomplishes nothing permanent. I have run out of time and energy to waste indulging in righteous anger. We need all the energy and time left to Work on transformation of machines into Real Men and Real Women.

Hi go2, it sounds like you are engaging in some black and white thinking concerning anger. Anger is actually a very important emotion - it is a natural defense. Shutting it down because you don't 'like it' doesn't mean that you are controlling it, it is still controlling you because that energy has to go somewhere and unexpressed anger tends to sicken a person in one way or another. Also, all anger doesn't result in 'kicking other machines' - a person can be angry without having it control them - it can fuel them, it can guide them and it can warn them, it doesn't have to 'take control'.

Hi anart...I am glad you answered as this question of righteous anger and the emotional center has been on my mind for a number of months. First, I will repeat a sentence which may be easy to misread and then ask a couple of questions to clarify the right use of centers with respect to anger.

Anger is an automatic mechanical reaction to what I dislike, not anger is an automatic reaction that I dislike. I am not suggesting shutting anger down, but that it becomes unnecessary and rare as we mature in understanding of ourselves and the world. It is a natural and completely automatic response to perception of a threat. Nature is an automatic machine. Does a conscious man or women need automatic natural anger to respond to a threat?

It is my experience that anger is a negative emotion. Do negative emotions inhibit the function of the emotional center, with respect to accessing higher centers? How does anger fuel a person, without engaging in the wrong work of centers?

 

[go2]

Hi go2, it sounds like you are engaging in some black and white thinking concerning anger. Anger is actually a very important emotion - it is a natural defense. Shutting it down because you don't 'like it' doesn't mean that you are controlling it, it is still controlling you because that energy has to go somewhere and unexpressed anger tends to sicken a person in one way or another. Also, all anger doesn't result in 'kicking other machines' - a person can be angry without having it control them - it can fuel them, it can guide them and it can warn them, it doesn't have to 'take control'.

Exactly. It is how we use anger that is important in the Work we do, not whether we feel it or not. How can we not? We are trying to be healthy feeling/thinking/moving humans after all, before anything else. And anger, as anart says, it can become the fuel for the energy you speak of:

We need all the energy and time left to Work on transformation of machines into Real Men and Real Women.

The Fourth Way literature is quite clear, that we must purify the emotional center of negative emotion to contact the higher centers.

Are you are saying anger is not always a negative emotion, Alana? Perhaps, if it originates in the emotional part of the instinctive-motor center, it is a proper use of that center in its survival function.

 

[anart]

go2, what is coming across in your posts here is that you are afraid of anger.

Why is that?

Regarding your questions, I would have to say that it depends on the type of anger, whether it is a positive or negative emotion. It is my understanding that not all anger is negative - that there most definitely is positive anger. Please remember the Law of Three. A human being does not progress by trying to shut out fully one half of the human experience, which is negative (or dark). Your negative identification with anger (meaning that you are so afraid of feeling it that you have decided that you must remove it) is limiting your perspective and limiting the possibility of you understanding that emotions - all of them - are useful if they are managed correctly and this includes anger. In fact, I would posit that in the world as it currently stands, an absence of anger indicates a lack in perception. Again - let me clarify so you don't misunderstand - feeling anger is VERY different from being controlled by anger and feeling anger, I think, is important.

 

[kenlee]

Some thoughts here on anger here.

I think that becoming conscious of our anger is very important so we can see where its coming from inside of us, finding out where it's "centered" and then observing it and becoming conscious of it. I think anger could be centered in our thoughts (angry running thoughts), or it can be anger in the emotional center where there might be deeper issues that go way back and has its roots in childhood (deep seated anger), or it could be centered in the body with muscle tensions and the like. I think the first step in dealing with anger is to become more conscious of it, allowing it to come to the surface, observing it and at the same time not putting one's consciousness or the 'I' feeling into it so we won't identify with it and then it'll be easier to see where its centered and where it's coming from.

What I found is that the mere act of conscious self observation along with enjoyable exercise and/or creative activity will immediately do away with a lot of my superficial surface anger but doesn't really work with the deeper rooted anger that has to be dealt with emotionally. But I think getting in touch with our anger is very important, understanding where its coming from inside and at some point allowing oneself to feel it totally and completely but at the same time being conscious of it. This, I think, will help transform the anger and make it possible to direct/transform it into making creative endeavors but I think it takes a lota work and maybe even for a long.

I remember reading something that was supposedly attributed to Gurdjieff although I'm not so sure about that, but anyway, the phrase went something like "if you gotta be a hound then you might as well be a wolfhound" or something like that. When I read it I interpreted it within the context of my earlier martial arts training where its possible to get in touch with that part of ourselves that can be "mad dog" brutally aggressive ("the fight in the dog") when necessary but only within the parameters of directly protecting oneself or others in a life and death situation.

So the martial arts training was directed in such a way so as to get the practitioner in touch with that instinctive part of themselves for self preservation and utilize it consciously. When it's conscious it means you have control over it and it can be more consciously directed and applied to a specific end and all the while knowing your doing it and why why your doing it.

Otherwise if it's unconscious then it controls us. I think that if the anger controls us then it can become violent, not only potentially violent in an external way but internally as well. But I think if we can become more conscious of our anger it can be transformed but if it's the instinctive protective "dog" in us then, in my opinion, being conscious of it won't really transform it but it will kinda keep it contained in the back yard (as it were) and give us the power to train it and let it out only when it's necessary and then have it trained to get back into the yard when we order it to.

 

[go2]

go2, what is coming across in your posts here is that you are afraid of anger.

Why is that?

I am horrified and afraid of anger, violence, and war. Anger may be clothed in beautiful robes …..justified, righteous, defensive, or humanitarian intervention; but it is self-love and violence which characterize my anger. I have carefully observed my habitual anger at the state of the world and its people. So…yes, I am afraid of the addiction to the emotional state of anger.

You claim conscious anger as a positive force, but to me that sounds like a little liquor for an alcoholic. I fear the blood running from my veins into the emotional state of anger. I fear the intoxication of anger and its siren call. People justify anger until they experience the violence associated with anger, then they are afraid of anger.

I work to remain conscious as states of anger and rage mechanically appear when I read the NYT, think of Fukashima, or discuss oligarchy. For now; I will continue observing its (go2) anger and working to escape identification with anger, violence, and war.

Some time ago I began to see and acknowledge my lack of compassion and empathy for others suffering. Since this realization; I do not, with the same frequency or intensity, project my own dark anger into the world. I now feel the horrors of this planet more frequently as sorrow, rather than anger.

Thank you for help seeing anger and fear are the opposite ends of my stick, anart. Perhaps, one day…I too will experience positive anger.

 

[go2]

So the martial arts training was directed in such a way so as to get the practitioner in touch with that instinctive part of themselves for self preservation and utilize it consciously. When it's conscious it means you have control over it and it can be more consciously directed and applied to a specific end and all the while knowing your doing it and why why your doing it.

Otherwise if it's unconscious then it controls us. I think that if the anger controls us then it can become violent, not only potentially violent in an external way but internally as well. But I think if we can become more conscious of our anger it can be transformed but if it's the instinctive protective "dog" in us then, in my opinion, being conscious of it won't really transform it but it will kinda keep it contained in the back yard (as it were) and give us the power to train it and let it out only when it's necessary and then have it trained to get back into the yard when we order it to.

This must be what Gurdjieff meant when he said both the wolf and the sheep must be intact in our inner world.

Only he will deserve the name of man and can count on anything prepared for him from Above who has already acquired corresponding data for the ability to preserve intact both the wolf and the sheep confided to his care. An old saying of ancient times definitely showed that by the world 'wolf' is allegorically understood the totality of all fundamental reflex-functioning of the human organism; and that by the word 'sheep' is understood the totality of a man's feeling. As for the functioning of a man's mentation, it is represented, according to the saying, by the man himself who in the process of his responsible life, owing to his Conscious Labours and Voluntary Sufferings, has acquired in his common presence corresponding data for the aforesaid ability always to create conditions for the possible existence together of these two heterogeneous and mutually alien animals (laws).
In every man there must be the constant striving that the wolf be full and the sheep intact.

 

[webglider]

quote from go2

Thank you for help seeing anger and fear are the opposite ends of my stick, anart. Perhaps, one day…I too will experience positive anger.

Here's an example - George Carlin:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqdCvfe12nM&feature=related