Do-it-yourself liposomal nutrients

[msante]

before I tried to give vitamin C ( in liquid form) my kids ( 7 & 10), they wouldn't take it and I ended up giving them 500 mg chews with 4 grams of sugar . I used to hate it give with sugar. with LPC ( laua's concentrated lpc), my kids take 2 or 3 times, one table spoon of it with out any complaints. In fact my elder one asks for it.:)

Apparently not a good idea given glucose along with vitamin C.

Vitamin C and glucose actually directly compete with each other for insulin-mediated transport into the various cells of the body (Washko et al., 1991; Cunningham, 1998).

_http://www.infoisus.com/naturalhealtharchives/grouppekurosawa.com/blog/2006/02/how-to-make-your-own-dehyd_114115275209892585.htm

Sugar, as in glucose, decreases the efficiency of DHA uptake into the intestines. Therefore, this form of DHA must be taken on an empty stomach. Sugar and carbohydrates in general will inhibit its uptake.

Interestingly, sugar in the body inhibits the uptake of vitamin C into cells. Both glucose and vitamin C bind the same receptors so they compete with one another. Glucose does not inhibit the uptake of DHA into cells, however.

The taste is really ugly, but I do not think it helps improve with sugar. Perhaps it can be experienced with xylitol or vanilla essence ...

 

[Renaissance]

I had trouble getting the sodium bicarbonate to dissolve. I dissolved the sodium ascorbate first. Just some stirring the mixture was clear. I added the sodium bicarbonate, thought it was dissolved added the lecithin and put it in the ultrasonic machine for 480 seconds. After the timed session I poured the mixture into a jar. After a few minutes some of the sodium bicarbonate settled to the bottom.

I tried mixing with a spoon in the ultrasonic for 2 more runs of 480 seconds. This helped some. Then I mixed it with the blender wand, this dissolved nearly all of it. Next time I will mix the sodium ascorbate and sodium bicarbonate with the wand to completely dissolve it all. BTW I did not notice that these two ingredients reacted with each other when I was mixing them together.

That's strange. The baking soda should definitely be reacting - it fizzes and foams when added to the Vit C. Maybe try a new box of baking soda?

 

[Gaby]

I made my first batch this morning. I use Laura's recipe 6 tbsp of sodium ascorbate, 3 tbsp of sodium bicarbonate in a cup of water and 3 tbsp of lecithin in a cup of water.

There shouldn't be any need to add the extra sodium bicarbonate. Sodium ascorbate already is buffered and ready to use with lecithin to make the liposomal form.

Those who are using ascorbic acid should add the sodium bicarbonate in order to make sodium ascorbate, which is more friendly for liposomal forms. Alternatively, ascorbic acid can still be used. I might have missed something, but this is the basic thing that registered in my mind.

I hope to find some time later this week to make my first batch. I have both ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate. The later one is a high quality one which I was planning to keep in stock. However, I was going to mix the ascorbic acid with with sodium ascorbate and use that for the liposomal solution.

 

[Thomas Alan]

I made my first batch this morning. I use Laura's recipe 6 tbsp of sodium ascorbate, 3 tbsp of sodium bicarbonate in a cup of water and 3 tbsp of lecithin in a cup of water.

There shouldn't be any need to add the extra sodium bicarbonate. Sodium ascorbate already is buffered and ready to use with lecithin to make the liposomal form.

Those who are using ascorbic acid should add the sodium bicarbonate in order to make sodium ascorbate, which is more friendly for liposomal forms. Alternatively, ascorbic acid can still be used. I might have missed something, but this is the basic thing that registered in my mind.

I hope to find some time later this week to make my first batch. I have both ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate. The later one is a high quality one which I was planning to keep in stock. However, I was going to mix the ascorbic acid with with sodium ascorbate and use that for the liposomal solution.

Ok, next time I'll try it without the sodium bicarbonate, either with sodium ascorbate only or mix with ascorbic acid.

Mac

 

[Thomas Alan]

I had trouble getting the sodium bicarbonate to dissolve. I dissolved the sodium ascorbate first. Just some stirring the mixture was clear. I added the sodium bicarbonate, thought it was dissolved added the lecithin and put it in the ultrasonic machine for 480 seconds. After the timed session I poured the mixture into a jar. After a few minutes some of the sodium bicarbonate settled to the bottom.

I tried mixing with a spoon in the ultrasonic for 2 more runs of 480 seconds. This helped some. Then I mixed it with the blender wand, this dissolved nearly all of it. Next time I will mix the sodium ascorbate and sodium bicarbonate with the wand to completely dissolve it all. BTW I did not notice that these two ingredients reacted with each other when I was mixing them together.

That's strange. The baking soda should definitely be reacting - it fizzes and foams when added to the Vit C. Maybe try a new box of baking soda?

No fizzes at all here.

The box of sodium bicarbonate is fairly new. Just opened it about a week ago. I use it mostly for brushing my teeth.
During the next run I might try some ascorbic acid into the mix and see what happens. In any case it's all mixed now, no residue at the bottom.

Mac

 

[dugdeep]

I had trouble getting the sodium bicarbonate to dissolve. I dissolved the sodium ascorbate first. Just some stirring the mixture was clear. I added the sodium bicarbonate, thought it was dissolved added the lecithin and put it in the ultrasonic machine for 480 seconds. After the timed session I poured the mixture into a jar. After a few minutes some of the sodium bicarbonate settled to the bottom.

I tried mixing with a spoon in the ultrasonic for 2 more runs of 480 seconds. This helped some. Then I mixed it with the blender wand, this dissolved nearly all of it. Next time I will mix the sodium ascorbate and sodium bicarbonate with the wand to completely dissolve it all. BTW I did not notice that these two ingredients reacted with each other when I was mixing them together.

That's strange. The baking soda should definitely be reacting - it fizzes and foams when added to the Vit C. Maybe try a new box of baking soda?

No fizzes at all here.

The box of sodium bicarbonate is fairly new. Just opened it about a week ago. I use it mostly for brushing my teeth.
During the next run I might try some ascorbic acid into the mix and see what happens. In any case it's all mixed now, no residue at the bottom.

Mac

As Psyche said, you don't need sodium bicarbonate if you're using sodium ascorbate. Sodium bicarbonate is used to turn ascorbic acid into sodium ascorbate. If you're starting with sodium ascorbate you don't need to add sodium bicarbonate. Sodium bicarbonate will not react (won't fizz up) with sodium ascorbate since the reaction has already happened - there's no free ascorbic acid left to react.

So it's either ascorbic acid (vitamin C) + sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) + lecithin
or sodium ascorbate (vitamin C) + lecithin
not a combination of all three.

Hope that makes sense :)

 

[Thomas Alan]

I had trouble getting the sodium bicarbonate to dissolve. I dissolved the sodium ascorbate first. Just some stirring the mixture was clear. I added the sodium bicarbonate, thought it was dissolved added the lecithin and put it in the ultrasonic machine for 480 seconds. After the timed session I poured the mixture into a jar. After a few minutes some of the sodium bicarbonate settled to the bottom.

I tried mixing with a spoon in the ultrasonic for 2 more runs of 480 seconds. This helped some. Then I mixed it with the blender wand, this dissolved nearly all of it. Next time I will mix the sodium ascorbate and sodium bicarbonate with the wand to completely dissolve it all. BTW I did not notice that these two ingredients reacted with each other when I was mixing them together.

That's strange. The baking soda should definitely be reacting - it fizzes and foams when added to the Vit C. Maybe try a new box of baking soda?

No fizzes at all here.

The box of sodium bicarbonate is fairly new. Just opened it about a week ago. I use it mostly for brushing my teeth.
During the next run I might try some ascorbic acid into the mix and see what happens. In any case it's all mixed now, no residue at the bottom.

Mac

As Psyche said, you don't need sodium bicarbonate if you're using sodium ascorbate. Sodium bicarbonate is used to turn ascorbic acid into sodium ascorbate. If you're starting with sodium ascorbate you don't need to add sodium bicarbonate. Sodium bicarbonate will not react (won't fizz up) with sodium ascorbate since the reaction has already happened - there's no free ascorbic acid left to react.

So it's either ascorbic acid (vitamin C) + sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) + lecithin
or sodium ascorbate (vitamin C) + lecithin
not a combination of all three.

Hope that makes sense :)

It does, thanks. The sodium ascorbate/ sodium bicarbonate mix makes me really thirsty, kind of like drinking salt water. I made a new batch with sodium ascorbate and lecithin. I'll see how that goes today.

Mac

 

[tempo]

You can't increase the vitamin C much over 3 TBSPs per cup of water and get it into solution without the bicarb. BUT the same amount of lecithin handles this doubled amount in ascorbate form quite well. The solution is rich and milky and never settles.

I had a question/concern regarding this.

On my first attempt at liposomal C, I used 1 TBSP ascorbic acid and 3 TBSPs lecithin. Separation occurred.

Second attempt, I used 2 TBSPs ascorbic acid and enough sodium bicarbonate for neutralization with the same 3 TBSPs of lecithin. No separation occurred.

The thought I was having was that the separation was being caused by an excess of lecithin.
When enough ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate is used there does not seem to be any separation of the two solutions.

So, I am wondering if more and more sodium ascorbate is being added, but the same amount of lecithin is being used, is everything still being converted to liposomal C?
Or... are you ending up with a solution of mostly sodium ascorbate and some liposomal C, but no separation takes place because the separation only occurs when the lecithin doesn't have enough to 'encapsulate'?

So I'm wondering if there is some limit to lecithin's ability to bind to nutrients, particularly sodium ascorbate, and if so, what are those limits?

 

[Laura]

Mac and all others: you need to be paying close attention to these chemical names. As has been pointed out, sodium ascorbate is NOT ascorbic acid!!! Don't play around with this stuff even if, in this case, it's not dangerous. In some different case, it could be.

A good general knowledge of chemistry and chemical reactions is useful, too.

 

[nicklebleu]

I have had a look at the science behind liposomal formulations - it's a complicated science ...

The one thing all the papers talk about is how to increase stability of the liposomes to extend their half-life in the blood, so as to concentrate the delivery of drugs to the tissues that need it. Liposomes are quickly undergoing phagocytosis by macrophages, which means that the drug spills into blood, liver and spleen, but doesn't go to other tissues well. One way of stabilising liposomes is to attach polyethylene glycol (PEG) onto the outside membrane which hold off the cells that eat up the liposomes. The longer the PEG chain, the longer the liposome survives in the blood and is able to accumulate at other sites. As to the amount they say 5 - 8 mol% of lipid content (I haven't worked out yet to what amount of PEG that translates). The result would be to have more sustained levels of vitamin C in the blood and avoiding the troughs in between doses.

They talk mainly of iv administered liposomes, but I think by inference this might be applicable to oral formulations as well. I was thinking of experimenting with adding some PEG-4000 to my next batch of lipo C.


Here are a few links for the interested:

Short animation about liposomes (Part 1): _http://pharmaxchange.info/press/2011/04/animation-of-liposome-basics-part-1/
Short animation about liposomes (Part 2): _http://pharmaxchange.info/press/2011/04/animation-of-liposome-basics-part-2/


Interesting literature explaining some of the concepts behind liposomal formulation:

Liposomes for drug delivery: _http://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:162632/FULLTEXT01

Complementary Liposomes Based on Phosphatidylcholine: Interaction Effectiveness vs Protective Coating: _http://144.206.159.178/ft/2957/77559/1311114.pdf

Developments in liposomal drug delivery systems: _http://www.islandnet.com/~prc/PDFs/247.pdf

Novel applications of liposomes: _http://showme.physics.drexel.edu/lucci/backup/temp/encapsulation/Liposomes/Review1_Liposomes.pdf

Biophysical Aspects of Using Liposomes as Delivery Vehicles: _http://www-04.all-portland.net/bsr/022/0129/0220129.pdf

 

[Possibility of Being]

You all may want to read the thread Hemochromatosis and Autoimmune Conditions, especially if you notice any worsening of your symptoms after Vitamin C intake.

 

[Thomas Alan]

Mac and all others: you need to be paying close attention to these chemical names. As has been pointed out, sodium ascorbate is NOT ascorbic acid!!! Don't play around with this stuff even if, in this case, it's not dangerous. In some different case, it could be.

A good general knowledge of chemistry and chemical reactions is useful, too.

I apparently misunderstood this paragraph in the recipe that you posted:

"So, with ascorbic acid:

1 cup water, 3 TBSP acid form of vitamin C to 1 cup water and 3 TBSP of lecithin.

But with sodium ascorbate:

1 cup water, 6 TBSP vitamin C, 3 or 4 tsps of sodium bicarbonate added to 1 cup water with 3 TBSP dissolved lecithin."

I took this to mean that sodium bicarbonate should be used with sodium ascorbate using this method. I know that ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate have different properties.

In any case my second batch was made with sodium ascorbate and dissolved lecithin. I seem to be tolerating it well and feel better in general. I had been using ascorbic acid crystals and water before trying the liposomal form.

Mac

 

[Laura]

Mac and all others: you need to be paying close attention to these chemical names. As has been pointed out, sodium ascorbate is NOT ascorbic acid!!! Don't play around with this stuff even if, in this case, it's not dangerous. In some different case, it could be.

A good general knowledge of chemistry and chemical reactions is useful, too.

I apparently misunderstood this paragraph in the recipe that you posted:

"So, with ascorbic acid:

1 cup water, 3 TBSP acid form of vitamin C to 1 cup water and 3 TBSP of lecithin.

But with sodium ascorbate:

1 cup water, 6 TBSP vitamin C, 3 or 4 tsps of sodium bicarbonate added to 1 cup water with 3 TBSP dissolved lecithin."

I took this to mean that sodium bicarbonate should be used with sodium ascorbate using this method. I know that ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate have different properties.

In any case my second batch was made with sodium ascorbate and dissolved lecithin. I seem to be tolerating it well and feel better in general. I had been using ascorbic acid crystals and water before trying the liposomal form.

Mac

What I meant was making the solution "with sodium ascorbate" that this is how you get the ascorbate! Obviously, I should have been real clear on that. But if you had read the next line it said to mix vitamin C with sodium bicarbonate...

The last point about knowing some chemistry would have meant that you would have understood this, so my bad for assuming some general chemical knowledge among folks.

 

[Thomas Alan]

Mac and all others: you need to be paying close attention to these chemical names. As has been pointed out, sodium ascorbate is NOT ascorbic acid!!! Don't play around with this stuff even if, in this case, it's not dangerous. In some different case, it could be.

A good general knowledge of chemistry and chemical reactions is useful, too.

I apparently misunderstood this paragraph in the recipe that you posted:

"So, with ascorbic acid:

1 cup water, 3 TBSP acid form of vitamin C to 1 cup water and 3 TBSP of lecithin.

But with sodium ascorbate:

1 cup water, 6 TBSP vitamin C, 3 or 4 tsps of sodium bicarbonate added to 1 cup water with 3 TBSP dissolved lecithin."

I took this to mean that sodium bicarbonate should be used with sodium ascorbate using this method. I know that ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate have different properties.

In any case my second batch was made with sodium ascorbate and dissolved lecithin. I seem to be tolerating it well and feel better in general. I had been using ascorbic acid crystals and water before trying the liposomal form.

Mac

What I meant was making the solution "with sodium ascorbate" that this is how you get the ascorbate! Obviously, I should have been real clear on that. But if you had read the next line it said to mix vitamin C with sodium bicarbonate...

The last point about knowing some chemistry would have meant that you would have understood this, so my bad for assuming some general chemical knowledge among folks.

Thanks, Laura I understand now.

Mac

 

[fabric]

Made my first batch of liposomal vitamin C yesterday. I followed Laura's recipe using ascorbic acid and baking soda to make sodium ascorbate and then mixing with the lecithin which I had soaking in water in the fridge a few hours. I changed the quantities to a little less (2 cups of SA and 2 cups of Lecithin) making about a litre. It came out quite well I think, added a few drops of vanilla extract too and it does add some nice character to it, a little nutty, sour and salty at the same time. Quite drinkable. Took a half shot before going to bed and woke up with all kinds of energy. Today took a full shot after breakfast and I thought for sure I would hit bowel tolerance but I guess my body needed it since I felt great all day.