Éiriú-Eolas - Breathing Program

Tavo said:
Yeh the back pain should be because of my position in the bed indeed, I never found the right position. I'll keep that in mind next time.

But what about the breathing issues when I woke up? I'm still recovering, and it's 17:30 here already :cry:.
We're leaving the summer here, and the change makes my asthma to reappear, but like I said, THIS is not one of those times.

Hi Tavo
From the intro video, have you been practicing the diaphragm/belly breathing? (Placing a book on your belly, breathing in and watching it rise...breathing out and watching it fall?)
I ask because mostly people do not breath with their belly and have to relearn how to use their diaphragm..... as such trying to do the E-E program without breathing from your belly feels constrictive and even suffocating. Doing the pipe breathing should always feel effortless and never forced....although it may require some focus to make sure you breath with your belly. SeekinTruth also makes a good point in that we practiced the pipe breathing for quite a while before starting the E-E program.
Keep us posted as to how things are going :)
 
SeekinTruth said:
Learner said:
I think, the body needs its time to adjust itself to that kind of breathing, as we are used to breathe otherwise.
Many of us, myself included, did pipe breathing once or several times a day for a couple of months before the full EE program was put together. So maybe those of us who did got a helpful preparation before starting the whole program.

Hi SeekinTruth,

I originally refered with "adjusting the body to that kind of breathing" to only Pipe Breathing (in form of Three Stage Breathing). Sorry, that I did not make that clear. :shock: By "adjusting" I also meant the use of the full lung capacity (in the course of time by doing PB), as we are not used to do so usually. I hope, that clarifies it a bit ;)

But your words made me think about something regarding the whole program. And now there's all the more to consider, since forge brought the matter about proper Pipe Breathing up again. By the way @forge: Thank you honestly for creating that marvellous little guide for PB! A well done reminder, that made and makes me re-observe myself doing the Pipe Breathing. I had your words in mind by doing it last night. ;)

@SeekinTruth, I was considering to fully familiarize myself with the pipe breathing as well, at least a couple of weeks, before starting the full program. But I didn't follow that. Was too curious to test it out. So my very first EE-session in mid November was a full session. In the hindsight I think, I should have waited with that, to be honest. I often doubted, if I was doing the Pipe Breathing right - especially in regard to the glottal constriction. Well, I listend to Laura's introduction several times and also watched the training video two or three times; the second video by Laura one time. But I still was not sure about my breathing. :/ So, by reading forge's guide I need to re-watch and re-listen to Laura's instrucitons.

Plus just pipe breathing helps reduce stress in a big way, another benefit.
Well, here I fully agree with you! Just only doing PB helped me out many times already. So, reagrding my doubts, can I say from the effects then, that I am doing it right? :/
 
After reading and pondering on the below excerpt, I remain confused:

Quote from "Meetings with remarkable Men," by G.I. Gurdjieff:

When the dervish had finished speaking about artificial mastication, and the different means of assimilating food and its automatic transformation in us according to law, I said:
'Be so kind, Father, and also explain to me what you think of what is called artificial breathing. Believing it useful, I practise it according to the instructions of the yogis, namely, after breathing in the air, I hold it a certain time, and then slowly exhale it. Perhaps this also should not be done?'
The dervish, seeing that my attitude towards his words had completely changed, began to be more in sympathy with me and explained the following:
'If you harm yourself with your way of chewing food, you harm yourself a thousand times more by the practice of this breathing. All the exercises in breathing which are given in books, and taught in contemporary esoteric schools can do nothing but harm. Breathing, as every sane thinking man should understand, is also a process of feeding, but on another sort of food. Air, just like our ordinary food, entering the body and being digested there, disintegrates into its component parts, which form new combinations with each other as well as with the corresponding elements of certain substances which are already present. In this way those indispensable new substances are produced which are continuously being consumed in the various unceasing life processes in the organism of man.
'You must know that, to obtain any definite new substance, its constituent parts must be combined in exact quantitative proportions.
'Let us take the most simple example. You have to bake bread. For this you must first of all prepare the dough. But to make dough you must take definite proportions of flour and water. If there is too little water, you will get, instead of dough, something that will crumble at the first touch. If you take too much water, you will simply get a mash, such as is used for feeding cattle. It is the same in either case. You will not get the dough necessary for baking bread.
'The same thing occurs in the formation of every substance necessary for the organism. The parts composing these substances must be combined in strict proportions, both qualitatively and quantitatively.
'When you breathe in the ordinary way, you breathe mechanically. The organism, without you, takes from the air the quantity of substances that it needs. The lungs are so constructed that they are accustomed to work with a definite amount of air. But if you increase the amount of air, the composition of what passes through the lungs is changed, and the further inner processes of mixing and balancing must also inevitably be changed.
'Without the knowledge of the fundamental laws of breathing in all particulars, the practice of artificial breathing must inevitably lead, very slowly but nonetheless surely, to self-destruction.
'You should bear in mind that besides substances necessary for the organism, the air contains others which are unnecessary and even harmful.
'Well then, artificial breathing, that is to say, a forced modification of natural breathing, facilitates the penetration into the organism of these numerous substances in the air which are harmful to life, and at the same time upsets the quantitative and qualitative balance of the useful substances.
'Artificial breathing also disturbs the proportion between the amount of food obtained from the air and the amount obtained from all our other foods. Hence, on increasing or diminishing the intake of air, you must correspondingly increase or diminish the amount of other kinds of food; and to maintain the correct proportion you must have a full understanding of your organism. 'But do you know yourself so well? Do you know, for example, that the stomach needs food not only for nourishment but also because it is accustomed to taking in a certain quantity of food? We eat chiefly to gratify our taste and to obtain the accustomed sensation of pressure which the stomach experiences when it contains this particular quantity of food. In the walls of the stomach there branch out what-are-called wandering nerves which, beginning to function when there is not a certain pressure, give rise to the sensation we call hunger. Thus, we have different hungers: a so-called bodily or physical hunger, and, if it may be so expressed, a nervous or psychic hunger.
'All our organs work mechanically and in each, owing to its nature and habits, there is created a special tempo of functioning, and the tempos of the functioning of different organs are in a definite relation to each other. So there is established in the organism a certain equilibrium: one organ depending on another -all are connected.
'By artificially changing our breathing, we change first of all the tempo of the functioning of our lungs, and, as the activity of the lungs is connected, among other things, with the activity of the stomach, the tempo of the functioning of the stomach is also changed, at first slightly, then more and more. For the digestion of food, the stomach needs a certain time; let us say that food must remain there an hour. But if the tempo of the stomach's functioning is changed, then the time for the passing of food through the stomach is also changed: the food may pass through so quickly that the stomach has only time to do a part of what it has to do. It is the same with the other organs. That is why it is a thousand times better to do nothing with our organism. Better leave it damaged than try to repair it without knowing how.
'I repeat, our organism is a very complicated apparatus. It has many organs with processes of different tempos and with different needs. You must either change everything or nothing. Otherwise, instead of good you might do harm.
'Numerous illnesses arise just from this artificial breathing. In many cases it leads to enlargement of the heart, constriction of the windpipe, or damage to the stomach, liver, kidneys or nerves.
'It very rarely happens that anyone who practises artificial breathing does not harm himself irreparably, and this rare case occurs only if he stops in time. Whoever does it for a long time invariably has deplorable results.
'If you know every small screw, every little pin of your machine, only then can you know what you must do. But if you just know a little and experiment, you risk a great deal, because the machine is very complicated. There are many tiny screws which might easily be broken by a strong shock and which cannot afterwards be bought in any shop.
'Therefore--since you have asked me for it-my advice to you is: stop your breathing exercises.'
 
ROEL said:
After reading and pondering on the below excerpt, I remain confused:

"Meetings with remarkable Men said:
When the dervish had finished speaking about artificial mastication, and the different means of assimilating food and its automatic transformation in us according to law, I said:

'Be so kind, Father, and also explain to me what you think of what is called artificial breathing. Believing it useful, I practise it according to the instructions of the yogis, namely, after breathing in the air, I hold it a certain time, and then slowly exhale it. Perhaps this also should not be done?'

The dervish, seeing that my attitude towards his words had completely changed, began to be more in sympathy with me and explained the following:

'If you harm yourself with your way of chewing food, you harm yourself a thousand times more by the practice of this breathing. All the exercises in breathing which are given in books, and taught in contemporary esoteric schools can do nothing but harm. Breathing, as every sane thinking man should understand, is also a process of feeding, but on another sort of food. Air, just like our ordinary food, entering the body and being digested there, disintegrates into its component parts, which form new combinations with each other as well as with the corresponding elements of certain substances which are already present. In this way those indispensable new substances are produced which are continuously being consumed in the various unceasing life processes in the organism of man.

'You must know that, to obtain any definite new substance, its constituent parts must be combined in exact quantitative proportions.

'Let us take the most simple example. You have to bake bread. For this you must first of all prepare the dough. But to make dough you must take definite proportions of flour and water. If there is too little water, you will get, instead of dough, something that will crumble at the first touch. If you take too much water, you will simply get a mash, such as is used for feeding cattle. It is the same in either case. You will not get the dough necessary for baking bread.

'The same thing occurs in the formation of every substance necessary for the organism. The parts composing these substances must be combined in strict proportions, both qualitatively and quantitatively.

'When you breathe in the ordinary way, you breathe mechanically. The organism, without you, takes from the air the quantity of substances that it needs. The lungs are so constructed that they are accustomed to work with a definite amount of air. But if you increase the amount of air, the composition of what passes through the lungs is changed, and the further inner processes of mixing and balancing must also inevitably be changed.

'Without the knowledge of the fundamental laws of breathing in all particulars, the practice of artificial breathing must inevitably lead, very slowly but nonetheless surely, to self-destruction.

'You should bear in mind that besides substances necessary for the organism, the air contains others which are unnecessary and even harmful.

'Well then, artificial breathing, that is to say, a forced modification of natural breathing, facilitates the penetration into the organism of these numerous substances in the air which are harmful to life, and at the same time upsets the quantitative and qualitative balance of the useful substances.

'Artificial breathing also disturbs the proportion between the amount of food obtained from the air and the amount obtained from all our other foods. Hence, on increasing or diminishing the intake of air, you must correspondingly increase or diminish the amount of other kinds of food; and to maintain the correct proportion you must have a full understanding of your organism. 'But do you know yourself so well? Do you know, for example, that the stomach needs food not only for nourishment but also because it is accustomed to taking in a certain quantity of food? We eat chiefly to gratify our taste and to obtain the accustomed sensation of pressure which the stomach experiences when it contains this particular quantity of food. In the walls of the stomach there branch out what-are-called wandering nerves which, beginning to function when there is not a certain pressure, give rise to the sensation we call hunger. Thus, we have different hungers: a so-called bodily or physical hunger, and, if it may be so expressed, a nervous or psychic hunger.

'All our organs work mechanically and in each, owing to its nature and habits, there is created a special tempo of functioning, and the tempos of the functioning of different organs are in a definite relation to each other. So there is established in the organism a certain equilibrium: one organ depending on another -all are connected.

'By artificially changing our breathing, we change first of all the tempo of the functioning of our lungs, and, as the activity of the lungs is connected, among other things, with the activity of the stomach, the tempo of the functioning of the stomach is also changed, at first slightly, then more and more. For the digestion of food, the stomach needs a certain time; let us say that food must remain there an hour. But if the tempo of the stomach's functioning is changed, then the time for the passing of food through the stomach is also changed: the food may pass through so quickly that the stomach has only time to do a part of what it has to do. It is the same with the other organs. That is why it is a thousand times better to do nothing with our organism. Better leave it damaged than try to repair it without knowing how.

'I repeat, our organism is a very complicated apparatus. It has many organs with processes of different tempos and with different needs. You must either change everything or nothing. Otherwise, instead of good you might do harm.

'Numerous illnesses arise just from this artificial breathing. In many cases it leads to enlargement of the heart, constriction of the windpipe, or damage to the stomach, liver, kidneys or nerves.

'It very rarely happens that anyone who practises artificial breathing does not harm himself irreparably, and this rare case occurs only if he stops in time. Whoever does it for a long time invariably has deplorable results.

'If you know every small screw, every little pin of your machine, only then can you know what you must do. But if you just know a little and experiment, you risk a great deal, because the machine is very complicated. There are many tiny screws which might easily be broken by a strong shock and which cannot afterwards be bought in any shop.

'Therefore--since you have asked me for it-my advice to you is: stop your breathing exercises.'

Indeed, when you juxtapose the above against what Gurdjieff said about breathing as recounted in ISOTM, you would naturally be confused. However, there are several things to consider between the two.

Notice first of all that this discussion was held among people who were not afflicted with the modern day habits of wrong, i.e., artificial breathing. Notice also some of the ideas that a few of the yogi practitioners have promoted on the EE thread about breathing, stating that this or that is the "right way" and EE is not exactly like them. It isn't like them, and all of them are derived from more "ancient systems" which were described by the Dervish above as: "All the exercises in breathing which are given in books, and taught in contemporary esoteric schools can do nothing but harm."

Notice also that EE goes into some detail explaining why and how each component works in physiological terms.

EE corrects breathing from artificial to natural Belly Breathing.

Notice what the Dervish said: "'Without the knowledge of the fundamental laws of breathing in all particulars, the practice of artificial breathing must inevitably lead, very slowly but nonetheless surely, to self-destruction." EE is based upon knowledge of the diaphragm and how it works, knowledge of the vagus nerve and the proper way to stimulate it, not some sort of mindless artificial breathing technique that is done by rote with no awareness of what it is, what it does, or why to do it.

If you study the yogic breathing methods that are being described by the Dervish above, and compare them with EE, you will see the difference.

Finally, there is my experience, the experiences of many others, as well as the info from the Cs that should resolve any confusion. If it doesn't, then nothing will.
 
A quick update. After having read forge's info about not constricting the throat too much I adjusted things in the pipe breathing parts of the program.
Seems I may have been constricting my throat too much.
Some things of note where I found myself using my diaphragm for all breath control/holding my breath between counts. No more using my throat.
Appart from waking up once, I slept really deeply...despite dreaming lots.
The last dream consisted of watching a video on youtube posted on Don't Panic Lighten Up.....based on some yet to be released/invented Apple ipod device.....thin screen colour display about the size of a small book that used touch screen hand movements to control (like the iphone, only thinner, faster and using whole hand gestures). It was a music video entitled 'iclicked my life away' about the different things in life (mostly technology) that we waste our lives focusing on. It was pretty catchy....and had the singer at a baseball stadium (sports on TV being one waste/distraction)....and also had a brown cadalack bursting into a ball of flames.
I've only dreamt of music/songs a few times in my life...and of a music video only once before this.....every dream like that I have however I find deeply touching/emotionally moving.
As a message to myself, I think that's a pretty huge (and blatant) one. I'm not a fan of sports/baseball though, so that symbolism was odd. Maybe its telling me I should make a music video/write a song? :cool:
 
RedFox said:
The last dream consisted of watching a video on youtube posted on Don't Panic Lighten Up.....based on some yet to be released/invented Apple ipod device.....thin screen colour display about the size of a small book that used touch screen hand movements to control (like the iphone, only thinner, faster and using whole hand gestures). It was a music video entitled 'iclicked my life away' about the different things in life (mostly technology) that we waste our lives focusing on. It was pretty catchy....and had the singer at a baseball stadium (sports on TV being one waste/distraction)....and also had a brown cadalack bursting into a ball of flames.

Could this device be the new iPad? _http://www.apple.com/ipad/
 
Nicolas said:
RedFox said:
The last dream consisted of watching a video on youtube posted on Don't Panic Lighten Up.....based on some yet to be released/invented Apple ipod device.....thin screen colour display about the size of a small book that used touch screen hand movements to control (like the iphone, only thinner, faster and using whole hand gestures). It was a music video entitled 'iclicked my life away' about the different things in life (mostly technology) that we waste our lives focusing on. It was pretty catchy....and had the singer at a baseball stadium (sports on TV being one waste/distraction)....and also had a brown cadalack bursting into a ball of flames.

Could this device be the new iPad? _http://www.apple.com/ipad/
Yeah, looks like it....odd I had seen that before briefly but didn't connect the two. :huh:
 
I've been attempting the EE program for about 3 months now, once a week (and POT most nights). Due to osteo-arthritis and osteo -porosis of the spine (and several other joints) I find the most comfortable position is to lay down during the first and last stage and only sit up when doing the reach-up-and-grab-the-air segment. With deep belly breathing I wonder if I take in enough air ( that is if there is a 'correct' amount that you need to inhale) when in this prone position. Anyway, after undertaking a session I do feel a lot more relaxed, clear headed and positive for the rest of the day. The following days however it seems I go through period of sometimes intense introspection, erratic anxiety, pointless irritations and the processing of thoughts about past and present mechanical behaviour concerning interactions with family and friends. (gawd - that sounds so vague- I which I could express my impressions more cogently).

Motivation is a major hurdle for me mainly down to my physical condition which quite often results in tirednes, fatique and general ennui. I hope this is not begining to sound too much like a big time whinge, but I've spend 18 years trying alleviate my medical condition and tried just about every unconventional (and conventional) purported remedy out there without any real long term success. Consequently I've a somewhat jaded and jaundiced view of things regarding cures/palliatives for this illness. My uncle had the same physical symptoms, restricted torso and head/neck movements and it seems likely there's some genetic factor involved. Sometimes, it just seems to be the way things are 'designed' on this planet - to break you, either mentally, emotionally, spiritually or physically.

Without harping on to long about my medical condition I've found heat helps whether from sunlight or hot baths. ( I was once told by an accupuncturist treating me that my body too cool /cold). Fresh air, particularly sea air also appears to be of benefit.

Anyway, I just hope to continue the EE program to reach and retain an improved positive, relaxed mental mood and outlook.

Sorrry, if some off this is off topic - but sometimes it helps just to let it all spill out (osit).
 
treesparrow said:
Due to osteo-arthritis and osteo -porosis of the spine (and several other joints) I find the most comfortable position is to lay down during the first and last stage and only sit up when doing the reach-up-and-grab-the-air segment. With deep belly breathing I wonder if I take in enough air ( that is if there is a 'correct' amount that you need to inhale) when in this prone position.

I have found this too because my posture is pretty terrible, until yesterday I had been leaning against a wall during pipe breathing. I have never felt completely comfortable sitting unsupported during EE, but for some reason I have the idea in my head that this is the 'best' way, the most effective.

Definitely going to be lying down from now on. After doing the program like this yesterday I had my most eventful session, the feelings of sadness and anxiety which seem to be just beneath the surface during other sessions were stronger. They were accompanied by vivid memories from my childhood around the time when my parents separated. Perhaps it would be a good idea for someone like me (who is having such a slow and gradual progression) to do the whole program more than twice a week, instead of just pipe breathing/prayer on the 'days off'.
 
I've just uploaded a new short introduction to EE on youtube. Pop on over and take a look...and don't feel shy about leaving some nice comments! :o)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GS29Iblm9w

Oh, and last I checked YouTube was still processing the video, so the quality might still be a bit dodgy. It will look better once their processing is complete.
 
Burma Jones said:
I've just uploaded a new short introduction to EE on youtube. Pop on over and take a look...and don't feel shy about leaving some nice comments! :o)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GS29Iblm9w

Oh, and last I checked YouTube was still processing the video, so the quality might still be a bit dodgy. It will look better once their processing is complete.

I like it! Nice job all!
 
Burma Jones said:
I've just uploaded a new short introduction to EE on youtube. Pop on over and take a look...and don't feel shy about leaving some nice comments! :o)

looks good. nicely edited.
 
Ditto! The video is very well done. Two thumbs up imo! :thup:

Many thanks to all involved. This is a well informed way to refer the program to those who may be interested.
 
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