Enforcement of VAX escalating
- Thread starter CelticWarrior
- Start date
I don't. And my understanding is based on the lack of evidence to support anyone making such a statement to anyone about their children. It's simply not true. And saying it is, IMO and in general, is a bad idea for many reasons. Maybe you and your brother have a relationship where you can say such things to each other without repercussions. If so, then it was wrong of me to assume that the prohibition on taboo topics applies in your particular case, and I apologize.
It does not seem to me that Carl was not responding to his own interpretation of what Neil said, he was responding to the normal understanding of someone who says something very hurtful to someone they claim to love.
Maybe we need a poll. How many people here, having had a discussion with a family member about the pros and cons of vaccines, and where the family member said they were going to get the vaccine regardless, would respond to them with: "well, don't expect me to come to your funeral"? Which, I should note, is basically saying to them that "you are doing to die from taking that vaccine and when you do, I won't be sorry for you".
How many would say that to a family member they loved or care for, or think it is an appropriate thing to say in this specific context of this specific vaccine? In addition, how many people *actually* think that there is a significant risk of death for people who get the vaccine? Furthermore, how many people think that a significant majority of people who got the vaccine have died or will die in the relative near future as a result?
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Dreamweaver
The Force is Strong With This One
Another quote from the book I'm reading (the wise man's fear) I feel it has some resemblance to this.
Bredon set his stones ruthlessly, not a breath of hesitation between his moves. He tore me apart as easily as you rip a sheet of paper in half.
The game was over so quickly it left me breathless.
“Again,” Bredon said, a note of command in his voice I’d never heard before.
I tried to rally, but the next game was worse. I felt like a puppy fighting a wolf. No. I was a mouse at the mercy of an owl. There was not even the pretence of a fight. All I could do was run.
But I couldn’t run fast enough. This game was over sooner than the last.
“Again,” he demanded.
And we played again. This time, I was not even a living thing. Bredon was calm and dispassionate as a butcher with a boning knife. The game lasted about the length of time it takes to gut and bone a chicken.
At the end of it Bredon frowned and shook his hands briskly to both sides of the board, as if he had just washed them and was trying to flick them dry.
“Fine,” I said, leaning back in my chair. “I take your point. You’ve been going easy on me.”
“No,” Bredon said with a grim look. “That is far gone from the point I am trying to make.”
“What then?”
“I am trying to make you understand the game,” he said. “The entire game, not just the fiddling about with stones. The point is not to play as tight as you can. The point is to be bold. To be dangerous. Be elegant.”
He tapped the board with two fingers. “Any man that’s half awake can spot a trap that’s laid for him. But to stride in boldly with a plan to turn it on its ear, that is a marvelous thing.” He smiled without any of the grimness leaving his face. “To set a trap and know someone will come in wary, ready with a trick of their own, then beat them. That is twice marvelous.”
Bredon’s expression softened, and his voice became almost like an entreaty. “Tak reflects the subtle turning of the world. It is a mirror we hold to life. No one wins a dance, boy. The point of dancing is the motion that a body makes. A well-played game of tak reveals the moving of a mind. There is a beauty to these things for those with eyes to see it.”
He gestured at the brief and brutal lay of stones between us. “Look at that. Why would I ever want to win a game such as this?”
I looked down at the board. “The point isn’t to win?” I asked.
“The point,” Bredon said grandly, “is to play a beautiful game.” He lifted his hands and shrugged, his face breaking into a beatific smile. “Why would I want to win anything other than a beautiful game?”
Bredon set his stones ruthlessly, not a breath of hesitation between his moves. He tore me apart as easily as you rip a sheet of paper in half.
The game was over so quickly it left me breathless.
“Again,” Bredon said, a note of command in his voice I’d never heard before.
I tried to rally, but the next game was worse. I felt like a puppy fighting a wolf. No. I was a mouse at the mercy of an owl. There was not even the pretence of a fight. All I could do was run.
But I couldn’t run fast enough. This game was over sooner than the last.
“Again,” he demanded.
And we played again. This time, I was not even a living thing. Bredon was calm and dispassionate as a butcher with a boning knife. The game lasted about the length of time it takes to gut and bone a chicken.
At the end of it Bredon frowned and shook his hands briskly to both sides of the board, as if he had just washed them and was trying to flick them dry.
“Fine,” I said, leaning back in my chair. “I take your point. You’ve been going easy on me.”
“No,” Bredon said with a grim look. “That is far gone from the point I am trying to make.”
“What then?”
“I am trying to make you understand the game,” he said. “The entire game, not just the fiddling about with stones. The point is not to play as tight as you can. The point is to be bold. To be dangerous. Be elegant.”
He tapped the board with two fingers. “Any man that’s half awake can spot a trap that’s laid for him. But to stride in boldly with a plan to turn it on its ear, that is a marvelous thing.” He smiled without any of the grimness leaving his face. “To set a trap and know someone will come in wary, ready with a trick of their own, then beat them. That is twice marvelous.”
Bredon’s expression softened, and his voice became almost like an entreaty. “Tak reflects the subtle turning of the world. It is a mirror we hold to life. No one wins a dance, boy. The point of dancing is the motion that a body makes. A well-played game of tak reveals the moving of a mind. There is a beauty to these things for those with eyes to see it.”
He gestured at the brief and brutal lay of stones between us. “Look at that. Why would I ever want to win a game such as this?”
I looked down at the board. “The point isn’t to win?” I asked.
“The point,” Bredon said grandly, “is to play a beautiful game.” He lifted his hands and shrugged, his face breaking into a beatific smile. “Why would I want to win anything other than a beautiful game?”
I can imagine that having read earlier posts in this thread, you may have felt that this was a similar anti-vax space where people who get the vax are dehumanized. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Tauriel
Dagobah Resident
May I ask you whether you have children?
My daughter got the moderna shots and will take the booster in a couple of days.
I'm afraid for her and for myself, I think. I know it's her decision and that I have no right to interfere but still I'm not at ease.
In the beginning I gave her information but she chose not to follow. It made me sad, afraid and angry... and honestly the control freak inside me wasn't amused either.
But it also breaks her heart because she knows I cannot support her emotionally in her choice. She probably sees it as a lack of appreciation which is an issue she struggles with for some time.
Our relationship became ....silent.
I saw her yesterday. We went for a long walk and suceeded to establish a more peaceful, less silent state.
As I could see her and me drifting further away from each other in these crazy months I realized that all I could do is love her and that is that.
If I'd tell her that I wouldn't cry for her if she'd become sick or even die this would be an outrageous lie and it would hurt her to the core.
If she would tell me that she wouldn't cry for me if I'd die from covid because I'm not vaccinated it would break my heart in turn.
The fact alone that these times brought with them the possibility of even thinking and saying such things is proof for the sad state of affairs.
We must look for each other, no matter what we choose otherwise we all lose.
Okay, I admit, today I did buy a whole lot of protocol NEM's for her and I think she will take them because she loves me.
siftingmaterials
Jedi
There are two things about covid that concern me. The first is its apparent rate of transmission from person to person. Based on what I've learned from people in my town, and from what I've seen, when the virus finds a host who's mobile in their community, it only takes a week or so before one becomes sixty. I've seen this happen and I've seen the grief it leaves behind, as well. Which I'll get back to. The rate of transmission is alarming to me. The second thing I considered was my community and my role within it. It's a largely immuno-compromised community with people of all ages. Based on who I visit with routinely, I surmised that I'm a likely vector for rapid transmission. The reading I do on this stuff isn't beyond any average person. Also, at the time of my jabs I was pretty convinced that the available data wasn't going make the decision for me. I did a risk assessment and concluded that I was in a position not only to leap into this for the experience, but also because of the number of people who would gain simple, basic piece of mind from the decision. Plus I wasn't afraid of the vaccine. I'm afraid of needles, though. That was hard.
We're not talking about anything special, here. If you run a keyword search on a search engine of your choice with the phrase "moderna vaccine decline" you get a lot back. I can't tell you exactly what sources tipped it over for me, but I can tell you that when it comes to something so panic inducing and politicized, I try take in the broad strokes of journalism and the academic press. I think all I had to decide was a personal probability assessment. Is it at all likely that these weird vaccines wear off over time? Yeah, I think that sounds likely. And I know that inactive and live-attenuated vaccines are also error-prone, so this is mostly in the service of my own judgement. I have a lot more to say about the difficulties we face as a species navigating hostile environments like media landscapes. I believe we are largely formed by heuristic responses that grow from a kind of deep evolutionary logic that is easy to abuse if you're the sort of person who might stand to profit off of co-opting someone's judgement. I'm not immune. In some sense I have to accept that kind of exploitation will be baked into my reactions to man-made information. But we persevere!
We cannot escape ideology without setting thinking aside and all of this parsing we're doing here is thoroughly rooted in - and contingent on - an elaborate environment of thought. Every opinion we lean on in turn leans on a nearly unfathomable web of contingent thinking. Sever one of those connections, though, and we seem to feel it like a plucked hair or perhaps a pulled muscle. If someone invalidates a presupposition contingent to a dearly held belief, that presupposition is illuminated for me as if psychic pain were signalling for my healing attention. I was raised, like most people in my culture, to react defensively to pain and to cast suspicion on those who cause me pain. It takes me a great deal of effort to face pain, even psychic pain, with no or little judgement. I assume this is probably true for others.
I assume that when I see people fly off the handle when one of their beliefs is challenged I'm seeing something similar to what I observe going on in myself. It's a defensive reaction to the pain caused by the attempted severing of foundational mental structure, something that supports my subjecthood.
The flipside is I could receive information that re-enforces one of these contingent presuppositions and the consequence is my belief is affirmed and that feels good. These are useful questions you're asking, I think.
That's what I mean by polarization. I suppose I see it as a consequence of light, in a sense, because light is an overwhelming channel by which we connect with other people's pain - and connect their pain with our own. The rest is, literally, history. I think a great deal of human drama can be explained with this model. I think the model is reaching toward one of these deep evolutionary mechanisms, these proto-logical instincts that helped to keep us alive but rendered us imminently exploitable when we remade the world into a frictionless plain.
Pain is the catalyst, if that wasn't clear. I propose that thought for us has mutated into something we call ideology. It doesn't exist for its own sake. It is catalyzed by pain and refined/proliferated through a process of polarization and conflict. When two opposing prepositions come into conflict, a synthesis is often produced from the wreckage. That's what I mean when I say refined and proliferated. You could ask me to cite my sources on this, but it's just my takeaway from studying Eastern and continental European philosophy.
I've been going through some of the content slowly, thank you for the rec. While I'm here I intend to engage. I suppose that intention is worth stating!
I hope at this point I've provided the background information that explains my impulse to confront and challenge. But I'll add that sometimes it feels altruistic. Maybe that speaks to synthesis. I think it's often a service to others when we can collapse conflict into synthesis. Not always, though. It's good to be aware of what's going on if that's possible.Explain
I mean to heal myself, I guess. That's why I disclosed. Thanks for helping to broaden out my post. I hope there's enough space in this thread to hold this dump of tangentially related content. I'll cut it off here and let that be my input for the day!
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Risen
Jedi Council Member
I wouldn’t say that because it certainly wouldn’t be true. I would grieve deeply.
I do think it’s possible that a significant number of people will die in the near future due to the experimental gene therapy.
I’m not trying to persuade or convince anyone else, just truthfully answering the question.
Probably not the source siftingmaterials had in mind, but see this for example: Comparison of official govt reports suggest fully vaccinated developing acquired immunodeficiency syndrome much faster than anticipated -- Sott.net
Norman Fenton also had a good post explaining the confusing statistics behind some of the efficacy numbers: Paradoxes in the reporting of Covid19 vaccine effectiveness -- Sott.net (keeping in mind that there could be confounding factors in the data used, which he discusses elsewhere). Full version here.
Most of the data I've seen (mainstream and skeptic, like Fenton) suggests that vaccines are effective at reducing the incidence of severe cases for a period of time, but that steadily drops, potentially even into the negative as suggested by the first article above. However, the vaccines are not effective at any time for reducing incidence of covid itself or transmissibility (thus negating the very reason for mandates). I have read some possible criticisms of even these points, however, suggesting that while the numbers show vaccinated (less then 6 months) people with lower rates of hospitalization, the rates of covid-like-illness are similar among both groups, so it could just be a matter of biased diagnosis - unvaxxed people are more likely to be diagnosed as covid, thus biasing the numbers. And Fenton has done work on all-cause mortality for both groups showing that it isn't even clear that vaccination prevents a significant number of deaths.
ok, it's possible. But do you think that that possibility makes it reasonable to convey to someone that they will die, or that there is a high (greater than 50%) chance that they will die, if they get the vaccine? Note the interesting point that the two people who said this to family members both independently used the phrase "and I won't come to your funeral".
You could tell someone, "you know, there's a risk of death from getting the vaccine, either soon after or later down the line". That might be a reasonable thing to say based on the (not very) available data, and if you were challenged about the risk, you'd have to admit that the risk is very small for immediate death and for later on it is, at this point, unknown. But do you think that it is reasonable or accurate to state it in more categorical terms (like implying there is a high risk), AND that you attempt to falsely reinforce your confidence in your prediction by adding "and I won't come to your funeral"?
These researchers claim to have discovered from the data that in the UK at least, covid deaths within a few weeks of vaccination are being classified as non vaccinated.
To be honest I am a bit surprised to see how some react so strongly in how they would prefer death over becoming vaccinated if it ever gets to the point of ‘’Die or Join’’.
I would like to share my perspective on this;
If you zoom out, from this whole covid19 business and look at humanity and yourselves in general you would realize that eventually we all die, our physical body will cease to exist in this realm. When aware of this fact, wouldn’t it be a shame to sacrifice your life, your greatest shield for your loved ones, your greatest weapon against the forces of evil so.. easily?
I would rather drink the poison then choose death so that I could comfort and assist another human life as long as I could. If the poison kills me before I could be of any more help to others then that is what my fate was. If I survive and could still help others then what greater joy could one wish for?
Your intent in whatever choice you make will decide who you are, not your feelings or emotions, but your sincere intent. You might believe that self-sacrifice by rejecting the mark of the beast is a noble cause, but when you die and the people that stand by your grave ask ‘’Oh noble one, what value did your self-sacrifice have?’’ your silence would be their answer since the dead do not speak.
You already pay taxes so they wage their wars on your behalf, you already use their corrupt money to feed yourself, and so who and what exactly are you sacrificing yourself for? If you truly wanted to reject the mark of the beast, you should have walked towards a desert and quietly waited for your death years ago.
If you truly and sincerely hate what is going at the moment and you want to reject the mark of the beast, you would use every single moment of your life to creatively and smartly surf the waves between their lies while keeping yourself safe and assisting those who ask for help, instead of wallowing in an illusion that your martyrdom is the act of a noble cause, it is nothing more than a selfish act that will only serve you.
And come on guys… Life is short, too short for witnessing all the marvels of it, so be gentle and kind to your family members if they made their choice on taking the vaccine.
I would like to share my perspective on this;
If you zoom out, from this whole covid19 business and look at humanity and yourselves in general you would realize that eventually we all die, our physical body will cease to exist in this realm. When aware of this fact, wouldn’t it be a shame to sacrifice your life, your greatest shield for your loved ones, your greatest weapon against the forces of evil so.. easily?
I would rather drink the poison then choose death so that I could comfort and assist another human life as long as I could. If the poison kills me before I could be of any more help to others then that is what my fate was. If I survive and could still help others then what greater joy could one wish for?
Your intent in whatever choice you make will decide who you are, not your feelings or emotions, but your sincere intent. You might believe that self-sacrifice by rejecting the mark of the beast is a noble cause, but when you die and the people that stand by your grave ask ‘’Oh noble one, what value did your self-sacrifice have?’’ your silence would be their answer since the dead do not speak.
You already pay taxes so they wage their wars on your behalf, you already use their corrupt money to feed yourself, and so who and what exactly are you sacrificing yourself for? If you truly wanted to reject the mark of the beast, you should have walked towards a desert and quietly waited for your death years ago.
If you truly and sincerely hate what is going at the moment and you want to reject the mark of the beast, you would use every single moment of your life to creatively and smartly surf the waves between their lies while keeping yourself safe and assisting those who ask for help, instead of wallowing in an illusion that your martyrdom is the act of a noble cause, it is nothing more than a selfish act that will only serve you.
And come on guys… Life is short, too short for witnessing all the marvels of it, so be gentle and kind to your family members if they made their choice on taking the vaccine.
Risen
Jedi Council Member
Okay, I feel like this is an unfair judgement. You can’t possibly know the reason someone chooses to die instead of giving in. They may not be thinking of themselves as a martyr and it is possible that the position they take will save someone else’s life or even many people by giving them the courage to believe in their own instincts. It is not black or white. It is a complicated decision. Not everyone thinks that this life is so precious or the only life they will ever have. I won’t judge anyone’s decision either way.
I am specifically refering to those that would with absolute certainty choose death in the above scenario with the idea of it being a ''noble cause''. The situation you are describing is applying to death/dying in general.
