Events in Russia

[sToRmR1dR]

Another thought about those who've knowingly chosen the terrorist path -

Cs: "If you play in the dirt, you're going to get dirty!"

So don't be surprised when retaliation happens in kind!

@sToRmR1dR - is this pic of Joe Biden photoshopped or is he sporting a black eye for real (or so it appears)? If real, part of the Black Eye club as one would expect?

It's photoshopped.

 

[Yas]

And I repeat, my argument is for the question: How do you get them to talk without torture?

And you, do you even know the destruction and death that is happening in my country?

Is this relevant to the topic here, Bluegazer?

There was a discussion about torture, yes, and I think you made yourself clear in that you think that one should appeal to conscience of people who have shown no conscience in order to get them to speak, and most people disagree with you. But now it seems that you're going on with the topic without much purpose other than to defend your point of view.

And about Argentina, you know there's a thread about that elsewhere where you participate and share the news and your views, so why bring it up? Unless there is a connection I'm missing, I don't see the purpose of bringing that up.

 

[Possibility of Being]

John Helmer has a bit on this:

You beat me on this. There is much more to it, and many more questions. For example:

- Is there any truth to claims that there are about 100 people still missing but not officially mentioned?

- Question about all necessary permissions for first, building the Hall, and then using it for public events. Several official answered the first question positively, but all documents need to be thoroughly checked. Corruption is more than likely. The second question is partly covered by Helmer. Again, officials and Agalarovs say everything worked while there are multiple witnesses' testimonies to the contrary.

- Question about the existence of the building insurance, still not answered AFAIK. Emin claims it was, but only for 1/30 - 1/40 of the amount of damage. Given that CCH is pledged on a loan from Gazprombank, more problems can arise, for the bank included.

- Questions about the delayed arrival of special forces. The first '112' calls from the attendees came a few mins after the horror started. Medics and fire brigades arrived very quickly. According to many sources and various outlets' timeline, special forces arrived about 45 min AFTER the criminals had left the building and over 1h after the attack started (about 19:55 Moscow time and it lasted 18 mins.)

The Insider:

The entire attack takes 18 minutes. At 20:13, the vehicle — with the four terrorists inside — leaves the parking area.

RuWiki, transl:
According to a TASS report from 20:33, "the Moscow units of the SOBR and riot police have been raised on the command "alarm", they are heading to the place." As of 21:01, according to the same news agency, the SOBR and riot police were still on the way.

A rather strange statement on RT reads:

After shooting people in Crocus City Hall and setting the building on fire, they did not attack the special forces which arrived at the scene and instead got in a car and fled from Moscow.

It also seems that the firefighters waited with entering the building, afraid that the attackers were still inside.

Here we come to Emin Agalarov, who claims he “entered the building 40 minutes after the first shots were fired ... and the fire safety system was working" ... We went inside several times and spent more than 30 minutes there, went through all the evacuation corridors, which were not smoky at that time". But according to the timeline, it was "reported at 20:44 that the roof of the building began to collapse, and firefighters still could not start extinguishing the building until the arrival of a special forces team." Isn't it "interesting"?

Also, spectators who were on the mezzanine and balcony said that the emergency exits at Crocus were closed during the terrorist attack, while others reported that some doors were closed too and they had to break through.

From Mash, translated:

21:00 - more than 50 ambulances and other special services were on the scene. OMON and SOBR are preparing for an assault.
21:14 - rescuers evacuate people from the burning roof of the building.
21:30 - firefighting helicopters are drawing water from the Pavshinskaya floodplain to extinguish the roof of the Crocus.

- According to some sources, Araz Agalarov (Emin's father) is Azerbaijani ex-"vor v zakone" ("thief in law", think: "godfather") turned into businessman-billioner (was 55th on Forbes list). He crossed his paths with God Nisanov, another Azerbaijani entrepreneur somewhen in late 1980's or early 1990's. At some point, Nisanov, infamous Moscow food-market king turned to Agalarov and Azer mafia for solving his problems with officials, competitors, and gangs. Around his "Crocus Group" there was a scandal after scandal involving Agalarov and officials, investigations and cover-ups. Many of his state contracted constructions were faulty and caused problems. Not long ago, there was a scandal with illegal poaching hunting for bears and cubs for restaurants, including those belonging to the empire of the Araz and Emin Agalarov family. Investigation against engaged in the crime federal institution officials was blocked and the whole thing hushed up.

BTW, originally, right after the tragedy, he allegedly considered himself a victim and expected the government (i.e. taxpayers) fund his Crocus reconstruction project. Met with a loud and wide outrage, he changed his tune and said that reconstruction will depend on the authorities decision. I'll stop here, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.
--
I don't think Putin will be able to hold the masterminds and organisers accountable, but if some serious purging within the corrupt structures can follow, it itself can prevent some further disasters.

PS/ Never saw so heavily edited Wiki entries as the Russian entry on the attack. There are still a few versions whos timestamps precede cited sources. Most of the history is fake now, as it seems. I didn't know it's possible, but saw part of it happening in real time, for example the very first version of March 22 citing an article published only 2 days later. At some point there was over 1K edits with messed up chronological order, including some edits dated March 1; must have caught it during the final cleaning.

 

[Beorn]

That is why I asked the question and partly what I want to express. We don't know for sure what goes on in these guys' heads. But well, as I read I am contradictory, baroque. When the reality is that I am looking for an answer that has balance.

You asked how do we get them to talk without torture? You could also ask how do we find the truth if we torture them? Probably not much is going on in their heads but we can observe and look for evidence to see what's going on. It's understandable people want payback. That's the mechanical reaction. We can understand it but we don't have to play a part.

I was contemplating this issue the other day. My conclusion was that payback/balance is for the angels, or demons as the case may be, to figure out. I think balance is not going to be found here, but humans will still do what they do.

 

[Bluegazer]

Is this relevant to the topic here, Bluegazer?

There was a discussion about torture, yes, and I think you made yourself clear in that you think that one should appeal to conscience of people who have shown no conscience in order to get them to speak, and most people disagree with you. But now it seems that you're going on with the topic without much purpose other than to defend your point of view

Well, I was already forgetting about this, but if you mention it....

The general question starts with: STS forces created this situation to derail Russia? Then I wondered and shared if the torture issue is involved in it. So it could be related because... these are events that are happening in russia. Or not?

Connection with Argentina? There is something. Since it involves Zelensky and therefore Ukraine and thus Russia. But I put it in the corresponding thread.

Shall I continue or stop?

I am not going to say anything more, unless you quote me, want to know or ask me.

 

[JEEP]

It could also be an attempt to set a trap for Russia. To encourage them to take action that would ignite a wider NATO war, which is precisely what the deep state wants, another war in Europe, from which they alone emerge as the real victors, just like WW2.

Counting on Putin to be too smart to fall into the trap. And let's pray that he is.

He is too smart!

Putin We are not going to attack any NATO countries. This is complete nonsense. We have no aggressive intentions toward these states. But we will shoot down your F-16s.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1773287540188971514

 

[Ryan]

Can you assure me that it is as you say?

Demand for proof.

I think you are missing my point. And it has to do with the question: How do you get them to confess and talk without torture?

Plea bargaining often works even with hardened criminals. You seem to think there are only two options though: confession with torture or no confession without torture.

Do you have a useful idea, contemplating as many variables as possible or are you falling into black and white thinking?

Since you mentioned black and white thinking, you might want to look at your own statements.

Now if you think I'm being too naive, you're missing the mark by a mile.

"Either you or I are wrong, there are no other options."

if there is someone angry with what is happening in my country with Milei, it's me, and this guy is a rabid dog. And I believe that if the dog cannot be cured, it must be sanitized... with a rifle.

Interesting that you protest for the consciences of merciless killers, yet Milei doesn't receive the same latitude, he's just a "rabid dog".

The anger is such that I know that more than one of you would like to grab each one of these terrorists and beat them to a pulp with your fists.

Can you assure me that it is as you say?

As a side note, and because this is what is happening, understand that my country is under attack. [..]

If the murder of 150 Russian citizens is horrible, how horrible is the murder of an entire nation?

The murder of an entire nation is happening only in your head. The deaths of those Russian citizens however, was real. And you liken the situation in Argentina to Palestine? Your critical thinking appears to be disintegrating.

You have nothing.

It seems it's more likely you who "has nothing". Perhaps once you realise this, it will shatter your monumental self-importance and you will start doing the Work properly.

Show me your degree and PhD in Objectivity and I will shut my mouth.

Legalistic and doctrinaire thinking. There are no such credentials and never will be, and your comments display a complete lack of insight and self-control. I suggest you read the thread on Splitting as a Symptom of Internal Considering, pronto.

So, shoot Milei, because it affects you. Appeal to the consciences of mass murderers, because it doesn’t affect you.

Okay, got it.

Yep, seems like the world can either take Bluegazer's view of things or leave it.

 

[youlik]

You beat me on this. There is much more to it, and many more questions. For example:

It is also alarming that literally the next day the Prosecutor General's Office stated that they had no complaints about the actions of the security and fire extinguishing systems. Right at the same time as the first statements of the participants and eyewitnesses. Only then it turns out that the armed guards of Crocus did not even go to the place.
This is all sad and suggests that nothing in this sense is changing in our "non-Danish kingdom". As it was in the "Lame Horse" and "Winter Cherry" so it is here, only here there is more money and the "roof" is more powerful (judging by the statement of the Prosecutor General's Office. It's usually sooo expensive to make these people move)

Spoiler: Russian spelling

Настораживает еще и то, что буквально на следующий день Генеральная Прокуратура заявила, что у них претензий нет к действиям охраны и системы пожаротушения. Прямо одновременно с первыми заявлениями участников и очевидцев. Только потом выясняется, что вооруженная охрана Крокуса даже не выезжала на место.
Это все печально и говорит о том, что ничего в этом смысле не меняется в нашем "не датском королевстве". Как было в "Хромой лошади" и "Зимней вишне" так и здесь, только здесь денег больше и "крыша" мощнее (судя по заявлению Генпрокуратуры. Этих заставить шевельнуться обычно ооочень дорого стоит)

 

[Bluegazer]

I had said that if no one else quoted or mentioned me I would leave this. And I hope that now there can be some rest here because if I can't get my point across (my fault) it's noise -for me and for others-.

Demand for proof.

It may be that in the face of immediate judgment one wants to know, I repeat despite the obvious (they committed a crime, they deserve the full weight of the law) what other information one has.

You seem to think there are only two options though: confession with torture or no confession without torture.

Or it may be in the rare case that the third one appears and one of them speaks without having to resort to torture. If not, I would not have made the suggestion.

The murder of an entire nation is happening only in your head. The deaths of those Russian citizens however, was real. And you liken the situation in Argentina to Palestine? Your critical thinking appears to be disintegrating.

A nation may actually die either physically or ontologically if you consider the destruction and/or disintegration of the national being. Hatred and division among people can lead to civil wars and cause a nation to split into smaller groups. The term balkanization appears here. And I think I was clear in stating the difference between methods and time when I mentioned Palestine.

It seems it's more likely you who "has nothing". Perhaps once you realise this, it will shatter your monumental self-importance and you will start doing the Work properly.

You are right, I should have expressed myself more clearly and said that perhaps he did not grasp the concept. Yes, it was harsh. Sorry for that.

Legalistic and doctrinaire thinking. There are no such credentials and never will be, and your comments display a complete lack of insight and self-control.

If someone boasts objectivity when the evidence is that although we do not express it completely in words but we feel the emotion of the moment, that it is difficult to remain objective... what do you want me to say? Besides, I am the first one to say that I could be wrong. Here and I always admit that I can be wrong. This whole situation has triggered something here in us.

I suggest you read the thread on Splitting as a Symptom of Internal Considering, pronto.

Added to the reading list.

Yep, seems like the world can either take Bluegazer's view of things or leave it.

I am affected by what is happening here, and what is happening in Russia. And I have already expressed myself about it in other comments. But it seems that many here believe that I am on the side of the terrorists because I simply asked myself an alternative, and shared it with all of you.

And I told:

If they were not born psychopaths, they are made. That if they are brain damaged there is no way to treat them. That if the Russians consider it so, these criminals could be shot, etc.

Now, if you go to the thread and read everything that the lunatic we have as president is doing, what would you do? Because I will tell you that everything he is doing is high treason. Now I can't answer you honestly because I don't have the current state of the law on the matter at hand. But I am sure that in other times that treason would send you to be shot. If the guy can be removed by impeachment, I prefer it. However, he is in very bad mental health and has psychotic outbreaks, rumor has it that he is wearing a bulletproof vest inside the government house office... if you notice he is in between knowing that he is doing harm and that he is going to receive the inheritance of his actions and at the minute he loses all contact with reality. Plus he is being over-medicated.

Please understand, it is not my idea to make a selective treatment. All of this, I repeat, was prompted by my concern that Russia is being pulled into this trap. We already know how the propaganda will do whatever it takes to give Russia a bad image. But it is also worrying, as others have already pointed out, that if they go down the negative path, the damage is greater.

Now the latest news shows, we see that Russia is resisting because it has already made it clear that it does not intend to attack other NATO nations.

Now can we leave it here? I don't want to make any more noise and I guess the others don't either.

 

[youlik]

What an enchanting juggling of "false flags". One "false flag" was going to the other for cookies.

Those accused of the terrorist attack in Crocus said they were going to Kiev to get a reward

The defendants in the case of the terrorist attack in Crocus told during interrogations that after the attack they were heading to Kiev for a reward, the UK reported on the Telegram channel.

"On the instructions of the coordinator, after committing the crime, the terrorists drove in a car towards the Russian-Ukrainian border for its subsequent crossing and arrival in Kiev to receive the promised reward," the publication says.

The defendants in the case reported that their actions both at the stage of preparation and after the attack on the concert hall were coordinated by a man through voice messages in Telegram.

The investigation continues to identify representatives of the Ukrainian special services involved in the organization and financing of the terrorist attack.

https://rusvesna.su/news/1711729684

This is a big and important matter, and in fact, there has been talk about it for quite a long time, but now that the Chinese have noticed it, maybe it will get off the ground.

Russia will create a BRICS grain exchange

Russia intends to create a BRICS grain exchange, and this will be a shock to the global agricultural market, writes the South China Morning Post.

The BRICS Grain Exchange will strengthen Moscow's geo-economic influence, strengthening its status as the most important supplier of grain and fertilizers. The grain exchange will help BRICS members ensure a stable flow of grain against the background of disruptions in global supply chains and problems with food shortages.

For traditional grain and fertilizer exporting countries represented by the United States, Canada and Australia, the BRICS grain exchange will lead to the need to look for alternative markets for their products. They will face difficulties maintaining their market share and competition from Russian grain.

Thus, Russia is expected to export a record 56% of the wheat harvest in 2023-2024 for the post-Soviet era, while for the United States this figure will be only 39% — below the average of 50%.

https://rusvesna.su/news/1711718596

Spoiler: Russian spelling

Какое феерическое жонглирование "ложными флагами". Один "ложный флаг" ехал к другому за коврижками.
Это большое и важное дело и на самом деле разговоры об этом идут уже довольно давно, но теперь, раз это заметили китайцы, может быть оно сдвинется с мертвой точки.

 

[sToRmR1dR]

A little sanity by the EU politician.

Moscow terror attack planned and paid for by Kiev – MEP

Ukraine was involved in the Crocus City Hall massacre, according to Marcel de Graaff

www.rt.com

 

[loreta]

I see too many emotions in your statement. Don't forget who we're talking about. We are talking about murderers and not about simple, random, everyday murderers, but about serial killers, maniacs.
Actually, in Russia, the death penalty, as a capital punishment, has not been abolished at all, its effect has been suspended by the decision of the Supreme Court of Russia in order to comply with OSCE standards. From the very moment when the decision was made to suspend the award of the death penalty, discussions have been taking place in Russia on this issue. They intensify at those moments when something extraordinary happens, such as now with this terrorist attack. So there are no "all Russians" who are for the death penalty or who are all against it.

Spoiler: Russian spelling

Я вижу в вашем утверждении через чур много эмоций. Вы не забывайте о ком мы говорим. Мы говорим об убийцах и не о простых, случайных, бытовых убийцах, а о серийных убийцах, маньяках.
Вообще то в России смертная казнь, как высшая мера наказания не отменена совсем, ее действие приостановлено решением Верховного Суда России для соответствия нормам ОБСЕ. С того самого момента, как приняли решение приостановить присуждение смертной казни, в России происходят дискуссии по этому поводу. Они усиливаются в те моменты, когда происходит что то экстраординарное, как например сейчас с этим терактом. Так что нет таких "всех россиян", которые за смертную казнь или которые все против нее.

Yes, yes, I know who we're dealing with. As I've already said, I'm in favor of the death penalty in certain cases, but I'm against torture. Any emotion in what I said? Yes, of course. I'm a human being, not a piece of plastic. And I saw myself inside this box that these assassins will live till the end of their lives. But the question is this: why did they decide on this penalty? Why not the death penalty? Was it to appease the public? Is it a message to others, to those who are planning other attacks? Is it to accept torture as a means of justice?

Of course I also understand the situation, the tragedy that has happened. So I see this judicial decision as revenge. And I wonder if revenge is a good thing.

 

[hlat]

John Helmer has a bit on this:

“Most of the victims in Crocus died not at the hands of terrorists, but from the criminal negligence of the owners and regulatory authorities,”

His latest has something similar:

This is that the casualty toll is at least twice the number it might have been if not for the maladministration of the Crocus building construction permits and the failure to enforce fire security and evacuation codes.

If Chinese style executions are not permitted for bribery and public corruption that is responsible for the majority of deaths, then life imprisonment is the next best thing for the owners and bribed government officials.

No one has the right to attempt the life of a human being, only God has this right.

The Cs called it an exaggerated human philosophical construct.

(Perceval) Did Caesar himself ever kill anyone?

A: Many, certainly.

Q: (Perceval) So, given the times around then being very war-like, with a lot of fighting and death going on in general... and with some kind of a Great Soul at the time coming down and... it doesn't necessarily have to be a peacemaker kissing people's feet like Jesus... But is there some thing like what we would understand as a prohibition against killing other people as a requirement for being "spiritually evolved"

A: That idea is for the most part an exaggerated human philosophical construct.

 

[Keit]

- Is there any truth to claims that there are about 100 people still missing but not officially mentioned?

Could be, because МЧС (Emergencies Ministry) makes official releases much much slower and later than the estimates in the media, even if from official sources. They do it after all the official procedures (autopsies, identifications, lab and doc works, etc) are done.

- Question about all necessary permissions for first, building the Hall, and then using it for public events. Several official answered the first question positively, but all documents need to be thoroughly checked. Corruption is more than likely.

No doubt about it. It's quite possible that most buildings in the country had bigger budget that was stolen, and/or construction companies tried to save money by using cheaper materials.

This is all sad and suggests that nothing in this sense is changing in our "non-Danish kingdom". As it was in the "Lame Horse" and "Winter Cherry" so it is here, only here there is more money and the "roof" is more powerful (judging by the statement of the Prosecutor General's Office. It's usually sooo expensive to make these people move)

I agree. The West isn't different, though. Greed is an everpresent disease, it just that in the eye of Russians, the West has this "aura of excellence". From what we can see, it isn't so anymore. The only good thing that can come out of it is that all those who steal will gradually get less and less comfortable with stealing. It will never end, but it's an opportunity to clean the mess a bit.

Also, spectators who were on the mezzanine and balcony said that the emergency exits at Crocus were closed during the terrorist attack, while others reported that some doors were closed too and they had to break through.

I read (can't find it atm) that the emergency exits were open and there was no problem with that. What happened is that some people in panic tried to pass through "employees only" exits that were closed.

That's why it was good that there were brave teenagers who worked in the dressing/coats room, who directed the people toward the emergency exits. Also the exits were open because prior to the attack there were couple of other important events, like Shaman's concert, so everyone who worked there was briefed on all the emergency escape procedures. And this actually saved a lot of lives.

I haven't read many detailed analyses, but read that the main problem was that the materials of the building were extremely ignitable, and this fact led to most deaths. This one is undoubtedly a clear sign of corruption and using cheap materials when constructing the building.

 

[youlik]

Yes, yes, I know who we're dealing with. As I've already said, I'm in favor of the death penalty in certain cases, but I'm against torture. Any emotion in what I said? Yes, of course. I'm a human being, not a piece of plastic. And I saw myself inside this box that these assassins will live till the end of their lives. But the question is this: why did they decide on this penalty? Why not the death penalty? Was it to appease the public? Is it a message to others, to those who are planning other attacks? Is it to accept torture as a means of justice?

Of course I also understand the situation, the tragedy that has happened. So I see this judicial decision as revenge. And I wonder if revenge is a good thing.

I'll start at the end.
Firstly, there is no court decision yet, while the investigation is still underway. And if we talk about a further possible court decision, then it is obvious that these people committed an out-of-the-ordinary crime, with all possible aggravating circumstances (drugs, committing for money, killing children) and the complete absence of mitigating circumstances, which also received the widest resonance in society (the court, whatever it is no matter how objective, it always takes this circumstance into account) and, based on all this, they will receive the maximum possible punishment according to the law. The maximum possible punishment in Russia is formally the death penalty, but a moratorium has been imposed on its use (I described the reasons above), so in the existing reality these freaks are likely to receive life imprisonment as the most severe punishment possible.
What does revenge have to do with it?
Further. You have drawn yourself some kind of mythical "box". Yes, prisoners, especially those sentenced to life, are not kept in palaces, but on the other hand, they are not pencil cases in which you cannot turn around. You can walk there without bending from corner to corner. You can sleep on the bed instead of on the floor. You can go for a walk every day, in the fresh air. They feed there regularly and although there are no pickles, no one dies from hunger or dystrophy. They allow you to read books, but not all of them. You will hardly find Hitler's Mein Kampf in the prison library.
As I wrote above, there are discussions about the death penalty in Russia. All that I have just reported about the regime of detention of life convicts is an argument of supporters of the death penalty. You perceive all this as torture, but they say that you are sitting in relative comfort (clean, dry, no dripping on your head), sleeping on a bed with bed linen, you do not need to work, they feed you regularly, take you for a walk, you communicate with a cellmate (as far as I know, life convicts they are sitting in cells by two), you can read books and all this does not look at all like a proportionate punishment for such bloodthirsty reptiles like these Tajiks.
Opponents of the death penalty have completely different arguments. For me personally, the most serious argument against the death penalty is judicial errors. In the process of searching for and capturing one of the most famous serial killers and sadists in the USSR, Andrei Chikatilo, two people were convicted and shot. Yes, they were criminals too, but they were shot for something they did not commit and it turned out only later. This situation is irreparable.
Personally, I can say that I do not have a clear opinion about the death penalty. In relation to other people, I am rather an opponent of the death penalty and not because of the desire to torment them longer, but because of the impossibility of excluding judicial errors. In relation to myself (God forbid I would have to choose) I would rather choose the death penalty because I think, as we say, a terrible end is better than horror without end.

Spoiler: Russian spelling

Я начну с конца.
Во первых никакого судебного решения еще нет, пока еще идет расследование. А если мы будем говорить про дальнейшее возможное судебное решение, то очевидно, что эти люди совершили из ряда вон выходящее преступление, со всеми возможными отягчающими вину обстоятельствами (наркотики, совершение за деньги, убийство детей) и полном отсутствии смягчающих вину обстоятельств, к тому получившее широчайший резонанс в обществе (суд, какой бы он ни был объективный, всегда учитывает это обстоятельство) и, исходя из всего этого, они получат максимально возможное по закону наказание. Максимально возможным наказанием в России формально является смертная казнь, но на её применение наложен мораторий (причины я описывал выше), так что в существующей реальности эти уроды скорее всего получат пожизненное заключение, как наиболее тяжкое наказание из возможных.
Причем тут месть?
Далее. Вы нарисовали себе какую то мифическую "коробку". Да, заключенные, тем более пожизненно осужденные содержатся не во дворцах, но с другой стороны это и не пеналы, в которых ты не можешь повернуться. Там можно ходить не сгибаясь из угла в угол. Можно спать не на полу, а на кровати. Можно ежедневно ходить на прогулку, на свежий воздух. Кормят там регулярно и хоть разносолов никаких нет, но и от голода и от дистрофии никто не умирает. Разрешают читать книги, правда не все. Майн Кампф Гитлера в тюремной библиотеке вы найдете едва ли.
Как я уже выше писал, в России происходят дискуссии по поводу смертной казни. Все то, что я сейчас сообщил о режиме содержания пожизненно осужденных является аргументом сторонников смертной казни. Вы все это воспринимаете как пытки, а они говорят, что ты сидишь в относительном комфорте (чисто, сухо, на голову не капает), спишь на кровати с постельным бельем, делать в смысле работать не надо, кормят регулярно, водят на прогулку, ты общаешься с сокамерником (насколько я знаю, пожизненно осужденные сидят в камерах по двое), можешь книжки читать и все это совсем не похоже на соразмерное наказание для таких кровожадных гадов, как эти таджики.
У противников смертной казни совсем другие аргументы. Для меня лично самым серьезным аргументом против смертной казни являются судебные ошибки. В процессе поиска и поимки одного из самых известных серийных убийц и садистов в СССР, Андрея Чикатило, были осуждены и расстреляны двое людей. Да они тоже были преступниками, но расстреляли их за то, чего они не совершали и выяснилось это только потом. Такая ситуация непоправима.
Про себя лично я могу сказать, что не имею однозначного суждения по поводу смертной казни. По отношению к другим людям я скорее противник смертной казни и не из-за желания подольше помучить их, а из-за невозможности исключения судебных ошибок. По отношению к себе (не дай бог мне пришлось бы выбирать) я скорее выбрал бы смертную казнь ибо считаю, как у нас говорят, лучше ужасный конец, чем ужас без конца.