Experiment with the spirit board -lies coming through it & how to recognize them

mocachapeau said:
I bet there isn't a single member of this network that hasn't had thoughts about attending a session with the C's, or making contact with a higher intelligence. The experience would be exhilarating, I think. We would all like to have the benefit of receiving some kind of personal information that might help us to understand ourselves, or the people in our lives. We would all like to have the chance to help others in this way, as well. And because of that, I think people here would be able to understand if thoughts like these influenced you to go ahead with your experiment. I know I would.

Well, you lose that bet! I have never considered or wished to contact other realms via channeling. It is a great responsibility and I am grateful Laura shares her Work. Consider the conscious labor and voluntary suffering necessary to journey safely into other realms. It is not a short cut to the kingdom of heaven or a toy of childish desire. The temptations of power are beyond the understanding and strength of the naive, as we just saw.

Shame, I doubt it...probably vanity and pride led our friends astray.
 
webglider said:
quote by nicklebleu
I don't know if Sasha and/or Ljubica are still logging in and reading this thread, but if so, I would like to address this to them.

Let's just say for a moment that what you have said about misunderstanding Laura's instructions about sharing these sessions on the forum are true, that you thought she meant to share them with the world. Even if no one here can understand how that is possible, if it is true, then it is a mistake. We have all made mistakes, and there is not a more forgiving group in the world (that I know of) than this one, if you are open and honest about what happened. And talk about a chance to grow!

After reading the responses to your posts here, I can see why you might have become more and more ashamed of what you have done, surprised by the reactions you received, making it harder and harder to speak up, and that is why you have fallen silent. There have been many emotions expressed here, including outright anger. And your continued silence has led some posters to actually start mocking you openly (something I'm not too comfortable with). That can only make it harder to face up to it all.

Nicklebleu, I find your post kind, insightful and externally considerate to all involved.

Shame, I think, is motivating the silence. Of all the emotions I have experienced in my life, shame is the hardest to bear. There is a sense of utter hopelessness and worthlessness. It is the worst punishment a community can mete out to its members. However, as painful as it is, it forces one to go inside and really examine oneself. This is the healthy part of shame, the part that leads to growth.

I imagine that that is what is behind Sasha and/or Ljubica's silence.

I have a theory which may be wrong, that something like this was fated to happen. As I was reading the thread, I thought of Gurdjieff's Law of The Octave.


quote from Cassiopae Glossary on The Octave

The 4th Way cosmology sees all processes as divided in seven stages, often denoted by the notes from do to si (ascending) or do to re (descending)

For example, the metabolism of man is described as as three food octaves, corresponding to how 1. physical food is transformed by the organism, 2. how air is transformed by the organism and lastly 3. how impressions are transformed by the organism.

An octave has two special intervals called shocks. These are the ones between mi and fa and si and the do of the next octave. These correspond to the absence of the black key on the piano keyboard. A process proceeds through the stages denoted by the notes if it has enough initial impetus. However, the process does not keep its original direction if left to itself. Usually, the process also needs an extra impulse from outside to proceed past the shock between mi-fa or si-do. Lack of understanding of the Law of Seven is, according to the 4th Way, the principal reason why human plans almost never reach their goal and why activities usually turn into their antithesis. One example is revolution against tyranny automatically turning into more tyranny. According to Gurdjieff, there exists an objective way of dividing all processes, from cosmic to social to mental to biological into octaves. This division is according to Gurdjieff, the only objective basis for the notion of time. A few examples of this division are provided in literature but generally man has no capacity or insight for seeing this division in nature and practical application of this law is elusive.

Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous contains the best structured presentation of octaves and the Law of Seven. Mouravieff also comments on octaves and how they relate to time and the progress of entropy, a sort of winding down of the universe.

If we look at this experience objectively, relating it to this law, perhaps the knowledge presented here has reached the si and do octave. Perhaps this experience was the shock that was needed to keep the original impetus of the entire Work on track.

Again, I return to Nicklebleu to express what I want to say:

I bet there isn't a single member of this network that hasn't had thoughts about attending a session with the C's, or making contact with a higher intelligence. The experience would be exhilarating, I think. We would all like to have the benefit of receiving some kind of personal information that might help us to understand ourselves, or the people in our lives. We would all like to have the chance to help others in this way, as well. And because of that, I think people here would be able to understand if thoughts like these influenced you to go ahead with your experiment. I know I would.

What I am struggling with is reconciling the fact that my Being is not on level it needs to be on do work on this level. There is a lot of information which I don't understand and maybe never will. And yes, I was banned from the forum for a year and a half, and it was an opportunity to grow some humility. I know how shameful and painful that is.

As far as I can see, you are not banned. You are part of the community. But the community that has brought us all together is for the purpose of doing the work. It is the Work that is important - our work on ourselves, and our work to make sure that the original aims get past that octave safely. I think everyone must be happy that it wasn't themselves who did such a thing. But anybody can let their ego trick them into doing stupid things. Or maybe not everyone, but many especially me.

webglider,

Just a quick correction ... I wasn't the author of the above quotes, that was mocachapeau. I merely quoted him and made my remarks to that.
 
go2 said:
mocachapeau said:
I bet there isn't a single member of this network that hasn't had thoughts about attending a session with the C's, or making contact with a higher intelligence. The experience would be exhilarating, I think. We would all like to have the benefit of receiving some kind of personal information that might help us to understand ourselves, or the people in our lives. We would all like to have the chance to help others in this way, as well. And because of that, I think people here would be able to understand if thoughts like these influenced you to go ahead with your experiment. I know I would.

Well, you lose that bet! I have never considered or wished to contact other realms via channeling. It is a great responsibility and I am grateful Laura shares her Work. Consider the conscious labor and voluntary suffering necessary to journey safely into other realms. It is not a short cut to the kingdom of heaven or a toy of childish desire. The temptations of power are beyond the understanding and strength of the naive, as we just saw.

Shame, I doubt it...probably vanity and pride led our friends astray.

Or ever thought about attending a session with the C's? Not even just to witness it? If that is true, well, I loose the bet.

But I don't think that having thought about how great it would be to attend a session, necessarily means that one is forgetting all the important aspects you have mentioned, above. In fact, I think those aspects make the event even more interesting to observe, like history in the making.

And what did the C's say about shame in the last session?

Quote:

Q: (L) Well, why are they not responding to the thread about these issues?

A: Shame drives defense.

Q: (L) What do you mean by "defense"?

A: Convincing themselves.

Q: (L) Convincing themselves that they are channeling, that they can channel, or that they did make legitimate contact... Is that what you're saying?

A: Yes

Unquote

I believe shame was the impetus that led to "probably vanity and pride" which "led our friends astray".

anart said:
Shame is internal consideration - pure and simple.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. I think it is natural to feel shame when one makes a mistake that hurts others, as long as it was really a mistake. How one reacts to that shame is what can be internal considering.

anart said:
This community did not 'mete out punishment' in any way, shape or form. This community awaited input for weeks in order to more deeply understand exactly what happened in order to help these individuals. These individuals turned their back on this - fully - and moved on along in their illusion.

That was their reaction to the shame they felt, and that was internal considering. But if they had faced up to the situation it would have been a different reaction to that shame.

But now I'm kind of wondering...if a person reacts in a positive way to what I am referring to as a feeling of shame, is it possible that there is another word for what they are feeling? Like maybe one does not feel shame for making an honest mistake, only for a conscious misdeed. If so, then you are right.

But I do think it is possible to perform an action that causes harm to another, without being aware one is going to cause that harm, and then feel shame afterward. Or would that be better described as guilt?
 
mocachapeau said:
anart said:
Shame is internal consideration - pure and simple.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. I think it is natural to feel shame when one makes a mistake that hurts others, as long as it was really a mistake. How one reacts to that shame is what can be internal considering.

I think it would be better to say that shame IS internal considering, and how one reacts to that internal considering determines whether they grow or not. But the emotion itself is internally considering, at least that's how Gurdjieff and his students used the term.

But now I'm kind of wondering...if a person reacts in a positive way to what I am referring to as a feeling of shame, is it possible that there is another word for what they are feeling? Like maybe one does not feel shame for making an honest mistake, only for a conscious misdeed. If so, then you are right.

But I do think it is possible to perform an action that causes harm to another, without being aware one is going to cause that harm, and then feel shame afterward. Or would that be better described as guilt?

Perhaps it's an issue of semantics, but I think analyzing it further can clear up any confusion. Shame and guilt are often used interchangeably. My dictionary defines guilt as "the feeling of having done wrong" and shame as "the painful feeling of humiliation" after having done something wrong or foolish. Either way, that's internal considering. It's worrying about your perceived place in your social group, what others think of you. And it's quite useful in keeping people in line in a society, even if the norms in which it places people are pathological. I think what you're getting at is remorse, the feeling that "I am as I am, and as I am sucks". It doesn't matter what others think of me (in fact, I'm probably wrong about that). What matters is that I see myself and how I don't measure up to my own inflated self-image.
 
nicklebleu said:
I have recently mulled about the wish to be/ act STO. Not sure this is the right approach ...

To me it seems, that we live in an STS world is an inescapable fact. No matter what we do/ think or feel, it is STS. So I think that rather to waste time trying to be STO or to "aspire" to be, I want to concentrate on the here and now - to expand my knowledge, to network with the group, to identify the multiple "little I's", to get my body back in order through diet and to regularly perform EE to cleanse my heart and mind. If I can do that, I think that I have done something huge, something not many in this world attempt or are able to do. And this might - just might - sometimes, maybe in another lifetime, make a difference somehow, somewhere.

I think I understand how you are looking at this: we are STS whether we like it or not. We are aligned with 4D STS beings due to a collective choice we made a long time ago. And you're right about that.

But I look at the activities you mentioned as things that, if done honestly and for the right reasons, lead to one learning to be 'less STS', or at least gaining a better understanding of what it means to be STO. One thing I have definitely been learning, is that I really am not too pleased with myself in my most STS moments, and I can identify MORE of them than I ever could before! I am striving to eliminate much of that behaviour.

It all makes me wonder what the criteria is for reaching 4D STO if we are all STS beings when the wave arrives. I think it's just preparation for the reality-shock of your life (hoping you can take it), along with the choice that you make. And the choice is made at that moment where the two paths are made clear to you. All of this knowledge gathering is to help you to make an educated choice when that moment arrives.

Maybe that's part of what they mean by "it's who you are and what you see". You see the paths differently when you have a better understanding of what they are. That is definitely one of the most important things in Laura's work - understanding the difference between creativity and entropy. I imagine many humans would see the STS path as the easier one, partly because it's what they know best, and immediately choose it. And maybe in some ways it IS easier, but to know what it leads to may sway one's decision.

OSIT.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Perhaps it's an issue of semantics, but I think analyzing it further can clear up any confusion. Shame and guilt are often used interchangeably. My dictionary defines guilt as "the feeling of having done wrong" and shame as "the painful feeling of humiliation" after having done something wrong or foolish. Either way, that's internal considering. It's worrying about your perceived place in your social group, what others think of you. And it's quite useful in keeping people in line in a society, even if the norms in which it places people are pathological. I think what you're getting at is remorse, the feeling that "I am as I am, and as I am sucks". It doesn't matter what others think of me (in fact, I'm probably wrong about that). What matters is that I see myself and how I don't measure up to my own inflated self-image.

Yes, I see what you are saying. "Remorse" better describes what I was getting at, in that it is not "caused" by what others are thinking of you. That feeling may even come from empathy, in a way, upon seeing the harm done to others, regardless of how it occurred. Just a thought.

obyvatel said:
Hi mocachapeau,
You may find this thread Remorse vs sense of guilt interesting. It elaborates what AI mentioned.

Thanks Obyvatel, I will have to read that tomorrow - I've got to go to bed. Good night, all.
 
mocachapeau said:
nicklebleu said:
I have recently mulled about the wish to be/ act STO. Not sure this is the right approach ...

To me it seems, that we live in an STS world is an inescapable fact. No matter what we do/ think or feel, it is STS. So I think that rather to waste time trying to be STO or to "aspire" to be, I want to concentrate on the here and now - to expand my knowledge, to network with the group, to identify the multiple "little I's", to get my body back in order through diet and to regularly perform EE to cleanse my heart and mind. If I can do that, I think that I have done something huge, something not many in this world attempt or are able to do. And this might - just might - sometimes, maybe in another lifetime, make a difference somehow, somewhere.

I think I understand how you are looking at this: we are STS whether we like it or not. We are aligned with 4D STS beings due to a collective choice we made a long time ago. And you're right about that.

But I look at the activities you mentioned as things that, if done honestly and for the right reasons, lead to one learning to be 'less STS', or at least gaining a better understanding of what it means to be STO. One thing I have definitely been learning, is that I really am not too pleased with myself in my most STS moments, and I can identify MORE of them than I ever could before! I am striving to eliminate much of that behaviour.

In reality though, what is stopping someone from using these methods and techniques to become more strongly aligned with 4D STS? It is not a pleasant thought, but if the 'right reasons' aren't about wanting to become more oriented towards serving others, then what other alternative could exist?

Also, I think it is a stretch to say that everyone is aligned with 4D STS. Surely some here are aligned with 4D/6D STO? Since 6D STO is what is being channeled by Laura and the crew, and that has had a large influence on many of the practices and work being done here. Are we not choosing to align with STO or STS with every choice we make in life?

mocachapeau said:
It all makes me wonder what the criteria is for reaching 4D STO if we are all STS beings when the wave arrives. I think it's just preparation for the reality-shock of your life (hoping you can take it), along with the choice that you make. And the choice is made at that moment where the two paths are made clear to you. All of this knowledge gathering is to help you to make an educated choice when that moment arrives.

Just because we are predominantly STS beings, doesn't mean that we can't perform acts of STO, or strive to better live by those perceived ideals, in the here and now. As far as I can see it, there is opportunity in each and every moment in life to act in a manner that benefits others moreso than ones self. There is no reason to not attempt such practices simply because we are predominantly STS beings on an STS world. Isn't that part of the point of the learning going on in this reality?

This is why the statement given by nickelbleu bothered me I think. When I saw the words "So I think that rather to waste time trying to be STO or to "aspire" to be, I want to concentrate on the here and now" I sensed a sort of defeatist 'it can't be done so why bother trying' type attitude to he whole thing. But maybe 'trying' to legitimately be in STO as much as possible IS one of the keys towards determining future 4D STO candidacy?
 
Jason (ocean59) said:
mocachapeau said:
nicklebleu said:
I have recently mulled about the wish to be/ act STO. Not sure this is the right approach ...

To me it seems, that we live in an STS world is an inescapable fact. No matter what we do/ think or feel, it is STS. So I think that rather to waste time trying to be STO or to "aspire" to be, I want to concentrate on the here and now - to expand my knowledge, to network with the group, to identify the multiple "little I's", to get my body back in order through diet and to regularly perform EE to cleanse my heart and mind. If I can do that, I think that I have done something huge, something not many in this world attempt or are able to do. And this might - just might - sometimes, maybe in another lifetime, make a difference somehow, somewhere.

I think I understand how you are looking at this: we are STS whether we like it or not. We are aligned with 4D STS beings due to a collective choice we made a long time ago. And you're right about that.

But I look at the activities you mentioned as things that, if done honestly and for the right reasons, lead to one learning to be 'less STS', or at least gaining a better understanding of what it means to be STO. One thing I have definitely been learning, is that I really am not too pleased with myself in my most STS moments, and I can identify MORE of them than I ever could before! I am striving to eliminate much of that behaviour.

In reality though, what is stopping someone from using these methods and techniques to become more strongly aligned with 4D STS? It is not a pleasant thought, but if the 'right reasons' aren't about wanting to become more oriented towards serving others, then what other alternative could exist?

I think mocachapeau answered this question already with this:

mocachapeau said:
Maybe that's part of what they mean by "it's who you are and what you see". You see the paths differently when you have a better understanding of what they are. That is definitely one of the most important things in Laura's work - understanding the difference between creativity and entropy. I imagine many humans would see the STS path as the easier one, partly because it's what they know best, and immediately choose it. And maybe in some ways it IS easier, but to know what it leads to may sway one's decision.

The C's had said that STO is helpful and balanced. And by doing EE, the Work and dieting we are balancing out our systems a bit more. So the choice becomes 'clear' rather than a default setting, because we are putting in hard work to understand our choices and their implications. There's not as much wishful thinking or attempting to bend reality to our perception's as much. Energy is freed up from supporting illusions and put to more practical use, which can be helpful.

Jason(ocean59) said:
This is why the statement given by nickelbleu bothered me I think. When I saw the words "So I think that rather to waste time trying to be STO or to "aspire" to be, I want to concentrate on the here and now" I sensed a sort of defeatist 'it can't be done so why bother trying' type attitude to he whole thing. But maybe 'trying' to legitimately be in STO as much as possible IS one of the keys towards determining future 4D STO candidacy?

Unless I'm misunderstanding, isn't a key issue the wanting or trying to be STO kind of like a catch-22, where you want to be something that you are not, so you chase it around endlessly like a dog and its tail, which stifles your ability to align with STO-type energies.
 
Turgon said:
Unless I'm misunderstanding, isn't a key issue the wanting or trying to be STO kind of like a catch-22, where you want to be something that you are not, so you chase it around endlessly like a dog and its tail, which stifles your ability to align with STO-type energies.

That's exactly what I was thinking ... well said! Now the question really is: Can you balance the diet, do the work and EE and not move towards a STO orientation? Or use the same to advance towards an STS orientation?
 
nicklebleu said:
Turgon said:
Unless I'm misunderstanding, isn't a key issue the wanting or trying to be STO kind of like a catch-22, where you want to be something that you are not, so you chase it around endlessly like a dog and its tail, which stifles your ability to align with STO-type energies.

That's exactly what I was thinking ... well said! Now the question really is: Can you balance the diet, do the work and EE and not move towards a STO orientation? Or use the same to advance towards an STS orientation?

It seems this depends to inner motivation (the desire of the heart) that is the natural emotional orientation of the specific being and its conscious amplification.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
mocachapeau said:
anart said:
Shame is internal consideration - pure and simple.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. I think it is natural to feel shame when one makes a mistake that hurts others, as long as it was really a mistake. How one reacts to that shame is what can be internal considering.

I think it would be better to say that shame IS internal considering, and how one reacts to that internal considering determines whether they grow or not. But the emotion itself is internally considering, at least that's how Gurdjieff and his students used the term.

But now I'm kind of wondering...if a person reacts in a positive way to what I am referring to as a feeling of shame, is it possible that there is another word for what they are feeling? Like maybe one does not feel shame for making an honest mistake, only for a conscious misdeed. If so, then you are right.

But I do think it is possible to perform an action that causes harm to another, without being aware one is going to cause that harm, and then feel shame afterward. Or would that be better described as guilt?

Perhaps it's an issue of semantics, but I think analyzing it further can clear up any confusion. Shame and guilt are often used interchangeably. My dictionary defines guilt as "the feeling of having done wrong" and shame as "the painful feeling of humiliation" after having done something wrong or foolish. Either way, that's internal considering. It's worrying about your perceived place in your social group, what others think of you. And it's quite useful in keeping people in line in a society, even if the norms in which it places people are pathological. I think what you're getting at is remorse, the feeling that "I am as I am, and as I am sucks". It doesn't matter what others think of me (in fact, I'm probably wrong about that). What matters is that I see myself and how I don't measure up to my own inflated self-image.

I totally agree with the above statement. I think Ljubica, Zo and Saša is a good example of internal consideration and how one chooses to react to that shame or consideration. A knew session came to my attetion and the cassiopaeans summed it up well.

Q: (L) Let me ask one of the questions that's on our minds first. Hopefully it will be a quick question. We are a bit curious about the activities of our forum group members {name redacted} and {name redacted} and their channeling experiment. They claim that they were channeling Cassiopaea Leo? (Bubbles) 6 Leo. (L) I guess that was because you had made remarks about, "Next stop, Leo". Who or what exactly are they channeling?

A: Not channeling per se, more like being toyed with.

Q: (L) Being toyed with by who or what?

A: Elementals reading bits of emotion/thoughts.

Q: (L) Well, why are they not responding to the thread about these issues?

A: Shame drives defense.

Q: (L) What do you mean by "defense"?

A: Convincing themselves.

Q: (L) Convincing themselves that they are channeling, that they can channel, or that they did make legitimate contact... Is that what you're saying?

A: Yes

I hope for their own sake that they are not continueing with the channeling, because if I am not mistaken activities like this if not done properly can have dire consequences. Specifically unwanted criters into their own domian

Sorry for all the edits I was trying to get my thoughts together for a better way to address the topic that is not subjective.
 
mocachapeau said:
Hi mocachapeau,
You may find this thread Remorse vs sense of guilt interesting. It elaborates what AI mentioned.

Thanks Obyvatel, I will have to read that tomorrow - I've got to go to bed. Good night, all.
I read the above link and found it particularly informative and helpful. Understanding the difference between shame/guilt and remorse is HUGE, for me anyway.

There is something I have been thinking about a lot lately, a mode of thinking/reaction that I displayed not long ago, in the FOTCM members section. What I realized while reading the linked thread is that my mind has been flipping between the feelings of guilt/shame for that reaction as an isolated occurrence, and the idea that it is not an isolated occurrence but a recurring attitude/behaviour. And that accepting the latter possibility means to accept the fact that I am someone who thinks that way, at times - it's a part of who I am. I try to see it as a reaction to a very specific issue, but as I keep digging I come across different situations in which I've at least behaved similarly.

This has really helped me to understand it (me) a lot better.

Thanks for the help...again.
 
This is an interesting lesson. I've never participated in experimenting with a ouija board, but I know a few (young) people who do it "for fun." They treat it like a game, but they do believe in ghosts and want to make contact with spirits. I've heard many stories, and I wonder if I should ask them to talk about it and then perhaps persuade them that it may have unforeseen repercussions if they are not careful about possible negative encounters and assume too much. (I doubt if they would listen to me since another person I know has briefly remarked of the danger to them before, and ouija boards are popular items regarded as game boards.)
 
striveforselflessness said:
This is an interesting lesson. I've never participated in experimenting with a ouija board, but I know a few (young) people who do it "for fun." They treat it like a game, but they do believe in ghosts and want to make contact with spirits. I've heard many stories, and I wonder if I should ask them to talk about it and then perhaps persuade them that it may have unforeseen repercussions if they are not careful about possible negative encounters and assume too much. (I doubt if they would listen to me since another person I know has briefly remarked of the danger to them before, and ouija boards are popular items regarded as game boards.)

My stance on that (after having had a few very unpleasant experiences) is: Keep your thoughts to yourself unless you are specifically asked to get involved. It is very tempting to try to "save" others from harm and will always make us feel good. But this way you maybe deprive them of a valuable lesson.

That's just my tupence worth ...
 
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