French Presidential Elections 2017: Fillon vs Macron vs Le Pen

[MK Scarlett]

Other than that, in my eyes she definitely "won" the debate, showing more empathy, a stronger character than his, etc. But I was disappointed to see that she had a chance to really go there, and she remained pretty neutral on some topics. She did manage to throw some good digs in though, mainly about how Macron was backed up by the MSM, the government, etc. while she wasn't. And about his failures in the past, or his double standards regarding "terrorism" while promoting business with Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

That's how I see it as well, after skimming the debate a bit more today. As for the MSM, oh my. Le Monde published a slanderous piece on its front page (online) today "showing" in detail where Le Pen was wrong - no mention of Macron, who's forever the good guy. Le Figaro published a piece citing 4 "experts" who say Macron won...

Well, I don't think so - and many people as well: most of the youtube comments on the debate were pro-Le Pen.

Agree that it's kind of a Trump/Hillary situation. It's gonna be "interesting" I guess no matter the results of the election.

Let say that for me, with the info that we have with this forum, with SOTT, with the fact that we are looking for the truth she definitively won the debate and she was able to expose him as a liar. However, as Chu said, I was also disappointed.

However, for the general population, for Joe Blow, I think that she lost the debate. Although, Macron was off balance at the beginning, he came back from that surprise attack of the beginning, and he was rather calm and always asking to Le Pen, what is your program, don't tell me what mine is but what is your program. And as an image for a presidential candidate for the general population, he was rather calm this time and without too much emotion.

This disappointment has also came to me. It is like if Marine Le Pen did just the "minima" to please her electorate but not enough to win regardless of the fact that election is probably rigged. All a part of the game? Game as usual?

 

[Aeneas]

I find it hard to believe that Macron is leading in the polls, as most people that i speak to from the working and middle class speak favorably of Le Pen, but thinks it is rigged in favour of Macron.

An unlikely support comes from Brigitte Bardot, the animal rights activist, who says Macron would be worse for the animals.

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201705041053290708-france-elections-brigitte-bardot/

'Macron Has Cold Eyes': Brigitte Bardot Calls on Animal Lovers to Vote Le Pen

Legendary actress and animal rights activist Brigitte Bardot has called on the French to vote for Marine Le Pen in Sunday's elections, because her rival Emmanuel Macron lacks empathy and his victory would hurt animals.

Legendary French actress and animal rights activist Brigitte Bardot has called on her compatriots to vote for Marine Le Pen in the final French election on May 7.

She criticized rival Emmanuel Macron, accusing him of a "lack of empathy."

I think there is real power available to a President of France, which is why so much effort is being expended on making sure the French people "choose the right President". Presidential power comes in the form of the propaganda potential of the high profile nature of the office, and the perception a president can create by what they do and say. That perception can then become a perspective of many people. and collective perspective is the 'raw material' of the reality in which people find themselves.

I agree that it is very important not least because of the effect it can have on the EU, NATO and all the various upcoming elections such as in Germany. A domino effect and the creation of a schism in the unity about the Russophobic European policy.

 

[mkrnhr]

I think Le Pen was unprepared for the debate and she didn't have a winning strategy, maybe underestimating her adversaries. When you debate a technocrate, you don't ask him technical questions because he can use any obscure jargon to muddy the waters. The average person will nevertheless conclude that the technocrate knows what he's talking about, and you appear to know nothing. Also, whenever Le Pen is asked about her program, she begins her answer by: Macron is going to do this and that.

I think something of the order of NLP programming happened from the beginning of the debate where she was pushed into adopting the position of someone who's going to lose, conceding the title of future president to Macron even without realizing it. The whole message was something like: You are going to win and I'm just here to criticize whatever you are going to do because I have nothing concrete to offer.

It is clear that Macron has been well trained for this debate and her attacks were anticipated with the appropriate countermeasures, calculated to fool the undecided public. An other possible aspect would be the debilitating effects some psychopaths can have when faced face to face.

 

[Carl]

I think Le Pen was unprepared for the debate and she didn't have a winning strategy, maybe underestimating her adversaries. When you debate a technocrate, you don't ask him technical questions because he can use any obscure jargon to muddy the waters. The average person will nevertheless conclude that the technocrate knows what he's talking about, and you appear to know nothing. Also, whenever Le Pen is asked about her program, she begins her answer by: Macron is going to do this and that.

I think something of the order of NLP programming happened from the beginning of the debate where she was pushed into adopting the position of someone who's going to lose, conceding the title of future president to Macron even without realizing it. The whole message was something like: You are going to win and I'm just here to criticize whatever you are going to do because I have nothing concrete to offer.

It is clear that Macron has been well trained for this debate and her attacks were anticipated with the appropriate countermeasures, calculated to fool the undecided public. An other possible aspect would be the debilitating effects some psychopaths can have when faced face to face.

All of that might not even matter much if people can just see through the illusion even 1%. I think the effects of NLP stuff, body language, and subconscious undertones on a debate audience are overestimated at best. There is something that trumps everything else. The only thing people need to see a glimpse of is that Le Pen actually has some humanity, and Macron does not.

Le Pen is an actual human, I would vote for her any day given the choice. Seriously **** Macron. He's another slick, soulless psychopath politician, carefully pieced together and mass-marketed by his billionaire backers. He could kill you in your sleep and be on his merry way without a trace of conscience. In fact he'd probably enjoy it.

I just hope people are learning that if you wanna decide who to vote for in any election, just do the opposite of what the media tells you. Surely something, somewhere deep inside people wants to cry out 'No! Stop telling me what to do!'

These elections seem like a series of tests of our population's perspicacity. Although Trump didn't turn out great so far, he was clearly the better choice. Let's see if we can get a similar result again.

 

[mkrnhr]

All of that might not even matter much if people can just see through the illusion even 1%. I think the effects of NLP stuff, body language, and subconscious undertones on a debate audience are overestimated at best. There is something that trumps everything else. The only thing people need to see a glimpse of is that Le Pen actually has some humanity, and Macron does not.

Le Pen is an actual human, I would vote for her any day given the choice. Seriously **** Macron. He's another slick, soulless psychopath politician, carefully pieced together and mass-marketed by his billionaire backers. He could kill you in your sleep and be on his merry way without a trace of conscience. In fact he'd probably enjoy it.

Agree, but I was referring only to the effect on his opponent (Le Pen) during this particular debate, not the audience. Normal people already know what dire effects the oligarchy will deliver through Macron. Pseudo-intellectuals (especially the French variety) are another issue, they are the most faithful to the MSM and the ones I'm in contact with are going to vote for Macron because they are afraid of "populism" (these idiots imagine they're part of the elite). They are a minority of course but one cannot anticipate the reaction of the crowd, and the reaction of the deep state (in manipulating the results for instance). One can argue that the results of this debate are more or less significant but Le Pen performed poorly for such a historical opportunity.

 

[Aeneas]

Picking up the French newspaper, Liberation this morning at the hotel where I stayed overnight, I was sickened to the extent that it is Pro-Macron. From covering the whole frontpage and then the first 13 pages, it was all attacks on Marine Le Pen, with views from 'experts', union leaders etc. Nothing critical of Macron.
This is not North Korea, but it might as well be. The president, all the sitting ministers, former political leaders, all the news outlets are attacking Marine Le Pen and promoting Macron. And people believe that this this is a democracy?

It this was taking place in Russia, we would hear all about it and how evil it is. But this type of one-sided propaganda is not happening in Russia, nor was it happening in Crimea when they voted for joining Russia and nor did it happen the last few times when elections happened in Syria.

Imagine the headlines in the European press, if Assad as president of Syria, had told all his ministers to do everything in their power to make sure that other candidates were not elected, or if Putin told the government to do everything to do the same in Russia. Yes, all hell would break lose in the Western media. But not now when it is happening in France.

If one has to take a positive from this, then it is that the deep state is no longer hiding it's ugly face but is baring it for all to see.

 

[Starshine]

I agree with you Chu, MK Scarlett and mkrnhr, she performed poorly during this debate, even though she used some arguments. Regarding him, it is always fascinating to notice how a psychopath behaves and reacts. Aside the fact that it was pretty childish, she kind of gave credit to Macron in the end, almost willingly.
Using the same recurrent arguments was boring when she actually could have used much much more to make him loose credit. I mean, there are obvious arguments to use which she didn't. She didn't elevate herself when she kept attacking him with her 'white card' instead of expressing a real desire to unite people. Using this 'attack card' all along was a tangible strategy, but then make it something worth it. She appeared childish and obsessed, not much above him.
There is so much out there on Macron that you would guess it would be easy to constitute a real folder, for an ex-lawyer candidate to the Presidency.
In the end, we do wonder if this is just a game.

Thank you all for your contributions and perspective. I agree with you Laura, to get things moving, we need her to become President. Sheesh.

 

[Esote]

I agree with you Chu, MK Scarlett and mkrnhr, she performed poorly during this debate, even though she used some arguments. Regarding him, it is always fascinating to notice how a psychopath behaves and reacts. Aside the fact that it was pretty childish, she kind of gave credit to Macron in the end, almost willingly.
Using the same recurrent arguments was boring when she actually could have used much much more to make him loose credit. I mean, there are obvious arguments to use which she didn't. She didn't elevate herself when she kept attacking him with her 'white card' instead of expressing a real desire to unite people. Using this 'attack card' all along was a tangible strategy, but then make it something worth it. She appeared childish and obsessed, not much above him.
There is so much out there on Macron that you would guess it would be easy to constitute a real folder, for an ex-lawyer candidate to the Presidency.
In the end, we do wonder if this is just a game.

Thank you all for your contributions and perspective. I agree with you Laura, to get things moving, we need her to become President. Sheesh.

No way Marine can be elected. This is but a game for me, they are hand in hand somehow...
We don't need a President, we need to get out of this political system !

 

[aragorn]

I have to say, that I don't quite agree that Le Pen performed poorly. My take is, that yes, she could have had smarter, more sophisticated, and more high-fly things to say, but her target audience wasn't people like us here, osit. Her target audience, or so I believe, was the "average Joe's", the working class.

For instance, if she would have started to talk about foreign interventions, e.g. in Syria, and how that created the migrate crisis, that would perhaps bee "too much" for the average person - who doesn't see the broader picture - to accept. In other words, being too truthful could have backfired, since most people are too asleep to even consider those things as even possible - she would have come across as even more "lunatic" and a conspiracy theorist.

As I see it, she used the same strategy as Trump; repeating bluntly the accusations again, and again, every chance she could get. Letting them sink in, engrave them in peoples minds.

I could be off, but that was the way I perceived the debate. We will have to wait and see if this strategy was a good one.

 

[Maat]

I agree with Aragorn here, she was not so bad. She was very punchy in the beginning but effectively one can sense some tiredness at the end but also more and more humanity. One thing she was good in was, IMHO, is to remember that Macron doesn't come from nowhere but had put a big part of France in the street with the "work law" among other things. We know that people have a very short memory on these days, so it's was not nothing to stress this. Well I don't hold my breath... but maybe this BD cover I saw yesterday will become reality : "Trump, Putin, Le pen" (of course it was intendend to be terrifying)

To be honest, I would just say that I never ever voted in my life, nor this year. I always have felt more like an anarcho-communist (in the noble sense of the term), always.. . So, in fact I totally agree with Sow

 

[Aeneas]

I have to say, that I don't quite agree that Le Pen performed poorly. My take is, that yes, she could have had smarter, more sophisticated, and more high-fly things to say, but her target audience wasn't people like us here, osit. Her target audience, or so I believe, was the "average Joe's", the working class.

Not so sure that she did well if what I heard by speaking to the "average Joe" is any indication. As a matter of fact I was a little shocked to hear what a fellow worker on the trains had to say. He voted Le Pen in the first tour but he got so disillusioned listening to the whole debate and how childish they both behaved that he almost made up his mind to not vote at all or at best vote blank. Three other people from the working class gave a similar critique of the debate and thought that the choice is very poor. So after that I also seriously doubt that Le Pen will get elected. Needless to say that Russia is again accused of interfering in the elections via wikileaks. Who else could it possibly be :P

 

[Adaryn]

http://disobedientmedia.com/new-leak-reveals-emails-documents-from-macron-and-affiliated-staff-members/

New Leak Reveals Emails, Documents From Macron And Affiliated Staff Members

A fresh release of emails, documents and photos was dumped onto online messageboard 4chan late this morning, in the latest leak to hit Emmanuel Macron’s campaign ahead of France’s second round of presidential elections. The release purports to contain content from Macron and various staff members.

Files from the release are reported to have been sent to members at Chicago Hacking Conference THOTCON, who have verified their authenticity. Analysts who examined portions of the release say that the owners of the email accounts were practicing very poor security and appeared to have been targeted by a number of hacking methods, including spearphishing and bruteforce attacks. Staff members whose emails are contained in the leak include Quentin Lafay, Alain Torret and Pierre Person, among others. The cache of documents appears to be incredibly large and contains emails spanning back to over a decade ago in addition to financial data. The original leaker of the emails is currently unknown.

Document publisher Wikileaks has tweeted that they are aware of the release and are working to verify its contents, which they report has over 9Gb of data in total, with the most recent document dated April 24th, 2017. Wikileaks speculated about who might benefit from the leak, as it comes too late to influence the impending French presidential election, but could be used to boost hostility towards Russia and spending on intelligence capabilities. The leak is described as “significant.” Due to the massive size of the dump, Wikileaks has stated it would be economically unfeasible to fabricate the entirety of the release.

Rebel Media’s Washington Bureau Chief Jack Posobiec has claimed that early discoveries in the cache may show the Macron campaign and French National Police discussing means to infiltrate protest groups using militant tactics and banners, though it is unclear what the writers of the message meant by this.

This is a developing story

As rightly pointed out by Wikileaks:

Who benefits? Timing of alleged dump is too late to hit vote but will surely be used to boost hostility to Russia & intelligence spending.

 

[Adaryn]

Regarding the debate, a very interesting article by T. Meyssan which highlights the fundamental difference between the 2 candidates – as was pointed out here: the human qualities/humanity of Marine Le Pen, and the virtual inhumanity/lack of empathy/coldness of E. Macron:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article196233.html

Google translation improved:

A very revealing debate.

If we see the debate of the second round of the presidential election for what it was supposed to show - that is, not the programs, but the personalities of the two candidates - the debate of May 3rd was very revealing: the French are get ready to choose as president, for the next five years, a brilliant actor who is not interested in them.

In previous debates for the second round of the presidential election, both candidates used to let go of the rhetoric of their campaign and play the role of potential presidents. The objective was not so much to explain once again their conception of France as to show their personal capacities to form a team, to keep their composure and to defend the general interest.

That was not the case at all on May 3rd, 2017. Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron were at each other's throats, and carried on the fight of their campaign.
This uncontrollable verbal violence demonstrates, in living memory, an unprecedented fracture of the country. This dialogue of the deaf among its leaders can only lead their voters to come to blows. Obviously, France will be in the next few years the theater of a vast confrontation in the streets, a revolution, even a civil war.

We all know the diagnosis: on one side, wealthy people working in the tertiary sector, living in inner cities and consumers of cultural activities. On the other side, poor citizens working in the primary and manufacturing sectors, living in suburban or rural areas, deprived of any future as well as of public services. And, of course, many people in between these two poles, dreading to fall into the second category.

According to Mrs. Le Pen, her electors are the victims of a gradual dissolution of the Nation and the Republic into globalization. According to Mr. Macron, his electors, by getting rich, have become the winners of modernity and examples to follow.

TV viewers, stunned by the violence of the debate, failed to note the qualities displayed by the two candidates.

Marine Le Pen appeared emancipated from her extreme-right education, appearing as a maternal yet stern mother figure. As a lawyer, she showed concern for social justice and placed her talent at the service of "la France d'en bas" (the little people of France). She does not have a brilliant mind capable of illuminating Parisian salons, but she's gifted with a clear discernment allowing her to eliminate trivialities or rantings.

Emmanuel Macron is a superior mind, much more intelligent than his rival [the typical cunningness of the psychopath], often charming, sometimes curt. As a theater man, he's a master of illusion. He's a narcissistic personality, often malicious, devoid of scruples and remorse. He enjoyed pulling her rival's strings by portraying himself as the white knight facing the disguised child of a Nazi monster.

At the end of this long campaign, including this TV debate, it is likely that Mr. Macron will be elected by the coalition of "La France d'en haut" (the French elite) and those who hope to join it. But it is impossible to anticipate how the June parliamentary elections will take place. The logic according to which the French should give a majority of MP's to the president they have just elected could clash with the awakening of the forces which were eliminated in the first round of the presidential election. Therefore, the spell might break more quickly than expected, and Emmanuel Macron might be immediately forced to compromise with other parties.

Whatever the case - whether president Macron rules alone or whether he rules by associating what remains of the UMP (right) and the PS (left) - the gulf that separates the two France will continue to widen and expand. Citizens who wish to defend the general interest, that is to say the Republic, have no other choice than to organize themselves in order to resist, behind the elected leader of the opposition, Marine Le Pen, and to get ready to wield the power. They must admit that the time for courtesy is over and that anger is growing.

 

[Adaryn]

I have to say, that I don't quite agree that Le Pen performed poorly. My take is, that yes, she could have had smarter, more sophisticated, and more high-fly things to say, but her target audience wasn't people like us here, osit. Her target audience, or so I believe, was the "average Joe's", the working class.

Not so sure that she did well if what I heard by speaking to the "average Joe" is any indication. As a matter of fact I was a little shocked to hear what a fellow worker on the trains had to say. He voted Le Pen in the first tour but he got so disillusioned listening to the whole debate and how childish they both behaved that he almost made up his mind to not vote at all or at best vote blank. Three other people from the working class gave a similar critique of the debate and thought that the choice is very poor. So after that I also seriously doubt that Le Pen will get elected. Needless to say that Russia is again accused of interfering in the elections via wikileaks. Who else could it possibly be :P

I agree with Aeneas. From the point of view of the average Frenchman, she lost. I'm not saying the average Joe was convinced by Macron's clearly useless rhetoric, but that it was enough for making people choose to vote for Macron "by default", or at the very least, to abstain. Objectively speaking, Macron's performance was absolute crap, but he kept his composure (he's a good actor - some say he had an earpiece to "help" him, too). Whereas Marine Le Pen appeared as emotional, too aggressive and a bit hysterical, lacking in logic and rationality, showing her fragility. This debate reminds me a bit of the Sarkozy/Royal debate in 2007. Sarkozy won the debate (in the eyes of the public) because he appeared as clear and cool-headed, accusing, in a typically misogynistic way, Mrs Royal of being emotional and losing her composure. Just like Macron, he appeared as didactic and condescending.
Things that Sarkozy said to pull Royal's strings: "don't point your finger, a President needs to be cool-headed". Or: "You have a remarkable capacity for avoiding answering questions". These kind of subtle, condescending remarks influence people, who start to think "Royal doesn't have it in her to be president. She doesn't have the backbone. We need a strong (male) leader". Royal was destabilized.

Macron displayed the same kind of attitude - contemptuous, cold, didactic - though he was far less brilliant than Sarkozy, in that respect. He was really bad. Someone like Asselineau would have destroyed him in a minute on ALL subjects - especially economy (which is Le Pen's weak point).

There's also another element to take into account here: the misogynistic tendency of the French, and their professed love for rationality over emotionality. The American-style debate/show we saw last Wednesday doesn't work at all with the French. They love rhetoric, but not drama, in political debates. But what's funny is that though they're all for rationality and reason, in reality, they're anything but rational. As Asselineau aptly pointed out lately (paraphrasing): the French are endearing in certain ways, very irritating in others, but above all, they are a superfical and impulsive people who can change their mind on a whim. Which is why you heard things like "Remove the labour law and we'll vote for you", from a factory worker to Macron a few days ago.

 

[artofdream]

EMLeaks - macron-camp-documents-leaked

Source: https://on.rt.com/8av2

French presidential hopeful Emmanuelle Macron’s team confirmed that it suffered a massive hacking attack after a trove of internal documents was released online just a day before the final round of elections.
On Friday evening, a profile called EMLEAKS posted a nine-gigabyte leak to Pastebin, a web application where users can store plain text.

WikiLeaks posted a link to Pastebin on Twitter, saying that the release in question “contains many tens of thousands of emails, photos, attachments up to April 24, 2017.”

However a "gag order" has been issued by the French Presidential Election Commission, as per law, in France, the Presidential Election campaign has ended by Friday midnight.

In the meantime, the presidential election commission has confirmed that it is aware of the hack, but urged the media to be cautious about publishing the details.

I guess most will blame it on Russia as usual, and try to deflect it away from the content of the documents leaked...

cf. Wikileaks comment: https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/860580642014285829

Who benefits? Timing of alleged dump is too late to hit vote but will surely be used to boost hostility to Russia & intelligence spending.

The timing is interesting. Whoever is elected, will have her/his legitimacy tarnished.
However, in my case, I will have a look at these documents. Having more knowledge is always good, whether I go vote sunday or not ...

#art