Gold

FWIW, there seems to be an overly emotional component to many of the recent posts on this thread that seems to be somewhat out-of-line with the topic at hand.

These last posts in particular:

Michael Martin said:
go2 said:
Hi Guardian,

Can you see one can buy gold from hope and responsibility and not only from fear and greed? If you can see the possibility you will understand my perspective.
I understand and agree with your observations from your perspective. Your perspective assumes fear and greed are the only possible motive for owning gold.

Hi go2. I think it is the other way around. Guardian understands "your side" of the argument than you do "his side".

<snip>

SilverJeep said:
Guardian said:
SilverJeep said:
Unless you share with someone that will take all you have. ...and then kill you.

Your quote sounds like an Obama campaign soundbite.

Yes it does...what a pity he didn't mean it.

SilverJeep, your quote sounds like it comes from someone who seriously fears death? Dying really isn't anything to live in terror of hon....it's kinda like being born, only backwards. :)

Has nothing to do with me. I'm trying to understand your statement.

"Those who share what they have will always have what they need."

That might be true if there were no psycopaths in the world. Seriously, are you saying that if you share all you have and you are beaten, raped and murdered, you got what you needed?

If you think this is about my fear of death, let's take "death" out and say; beaten, raped, robbed and left with nothing. Is that what you needed?

Both people here, these arguments don't seem constructive and just come off as sounding defensive. I'm sorry to say this, but this is starting to sound like an argument between children. :(
 
Guardian said:
Gonzo said:
There will be a time when the illusion and its supports fail, but until then, cash still has value.

So how long will you choose to support the illusion?

Guardian, I don't quite get your point. Could you elaborate?

Gonzo
 
RyanX said:
FWIW, there seems to be an overly emotional component to many of the recent posts on this thread that seems to be somewhat out-of-line with the topic at hand.

These last posts in particular:

Michael Martin said:
go2 said:
Hi Guardian,

Can you see one can buy gold from hope and responsibility and not only from fear and greed? If you can see the possibility you will understand my perspective.
I understand and agree with your observations from your perspective. Your perspective assumes fear and greed are the only possible motive for owning gold.

Hi go2. I think it is the other way around. Guardian understands "your side" of the argument than you do "his side".

<snip>

<other quote snipped>

Both people here, these arguments don't seem constructive and just come off as sounding defensive. I'm sorry to say this, but this is starting to sound like an argument between children. :(

Hi RyanX,

Meaning no disrespect, well, if you snip off the rest of what I've written, my post sure doesn't look constructive at all. :D


But, kidding aside, I do realize that clashing ideologies do turn into one side trying to win-over the other side to their way of thinking, with each side knowing/believing that they understand the other camp's position and the other camp can't understand the opposition's position/arguments. Hence I used quotes for "his side" and "your side". Each "side" has strong convictions and each side believes the "sound" logic of their arguments. And each side seems to be (at least to me) in direct opposition to each other. Logic assumes that one side is in the right, and the other in the wrong. Or so I think. (I remember reading up on something about logic/logical reasoning in the Wave Series...)

(Please try to read the next paragraph as not arguing for my beliefs but as a "possibly objective" observation of how each camp might be feeling/thinking)
I think what's been written so far about the topic is enough explanation on both sides. It probably is hard to let go of the discussion as it is if you really have the conviction of your beliefs, if you believe that your logic is sound and don't want other people "falling for" the other camp's "propaganda" (the whole "lies must be answered with truth" bit). But I guess you can only explain so much and it would still be up to the reader to use his own thinking faculties and make a decision that he thinks is right be it one way or the other.

I'll step away from this thread for now and maybe re-read it a few times and let the ideas digest a bit.
 
Michael Martin said:
Hi RyanX,

Meaning no disrespect, well, if you snip off the rest of what I've written, my post sure doesn't look constructive at all. :D

Michael, I apologize for this. I should have included the rest of your post. My intent was to emphasize your thinking of "sides", which I think is an incorrect approach to this topic.

Michael Martin said:
But, kidding aside, I do realize that clashing ideologies do turn into one side trying to win-over the other side to their way of thinking, with each side knowing/believing that they understand the other camp's position and the other camp can't understand the opposition's position/arguments. Hence I used quotes for "his side" and "your side". Each "side" has strong convictions and each side believes the "sound" logic of their arguments. And each side seems to be (at least to me) in direct opposition to each other. Logic assumes that one side is in the right, and the other in the wrong. Or so I think. (I remember reading up on something about logic/logical reasoning in the Wave Series...)

I think you may be hung up on the idea of picking a "side". Go2 may very well understand Guardian's perspective (he claims to anyways) and visa-versa. Each perspective is subjective and to divide subjective opinions into imaginary diametric opposing "sides" is equally subjective, so it's probably not useful to get hung up on "sides" here, OSIT.
 
the funny thing is that a thread about gold already creates discord. Is there any symbolism at it? ;)
 
mkrnhr said:
the funny thing is that a thread about gold already creates discord. Is there any symbolism at it?

Yes, discord...especially when gold is discussed with people who only know gold from disinformation and mythology of the popular press.
In this age of collapsing tyranny the gold of philosopher-kings awakens. Tyrants hate gold. It is the ancient symbol of the philosopher-kings of Plato's
Five Regimes. I know fear, greed, responsibility, and hope in my own participation in the market for gold. I do not know its secrets even though I study gold for more than thirty years. It is amusing to see those who know gold and its role exactly and with certainty. I know only a little after all these years. What I do know is that gold is on the move and that this bares watching.

Ryan, thanks for the John Keel quote. It recalled to mind Plato's Five Regimes and new thoughts on the gold's awakening and its intention.
 
Hi go2, in the hope of trying to come to some type of objective assessment, do you think it is possible that gold might only be valuable in specific circumstances to specific people, considering the potential commetary bombardments, earthquakes, transdimensional realm crossing wave, etc. As well as the current financial reality for most people?

You have invested heavily with each post, trying to convince, adding more weight and sources to each response, and yet you haven't shown any interest, that I have been able to discern, in considering alternative possibilities. From what I see, it remains a black and white issue with you.

Arguments are offered and countered in ways that come down to a difference of opinion, where discussion participants are seeing through only their narrow perceptions and not even trying to consider another perspective. And we know already what to think of opinions.

I have agreed in principle with much of what you have said, but I also posed worst case scenarios where gold is merely a heavy metal to lug around, displacing essential survival items a survivor would need in a post-cataclysmic world.

For another perspective, I suggest that those with little material possession to invest would not benefit from gold as much as they might in more practical things, like seeds, water purification systems, gardening tools, etc.

Can you imagine, that for many who have no savings and are one paycheque away from homelessness, how strange the concept of investing in gold would be?

Gold is for those who can leverage a percentage of what they own to defer its liquidity by storing its value. Those same people (yourself included, I have to assume) have enough money to invest in other plans as well, so that they have as many bases covered for myriad possible future ourtcomes. But most of us can only afford to invest in one plan if we're lucky.

That one plan, therefore, has to serve as many potential future outcomes as possible.

If you could take a step back, divest some, perhaps this dialogue could actually be more than just a debate, where the only outcome is a zero sum game.

Gonzo
 
mkrnhr said:
the funny thing is that a thread about gold already creates discord. Is there any symbolism at it? ;)


Well, as long as this thread is viewed as a learning experience, I'd say it's worth it's weight in gold. ;)

I haven't had anything to say in this thread up to this point. Sometimes I wonder about that too...whether it's because I have a more or less balanced view of a subject or whether it's more that I simply don't care. At any rate, I see the issue a certain way and I think that even if someone goes out and buys a bunch of gold for whatever reason, it wouldn't affect me negatively.

Most of the time, I feel like I have within me everything I need to be able to survive. In other words, no matter how high your pile of gold, you will always need something. If I find out what that is and supply it, we can swap, because I live in a non-zero sum game Universe.

But I don't think everyone understands this - even many people in the Work and I sometimes wonder if it's because the mechanics and effects of Narcissistic wounding go so deep.

To me, it appears that, quite simply, in many people, there is an inner denial. A way down deep disconnect between the individual and the Universe, most likely due to the influences of past experiences. It's a basic inversion...the preference for a "Cartesian Theatre" version of reality that turns existence inside out like a figure-ground inversion.

The Universe I live in contains non-zero sum games. For example, if I have a computer with no hard disk and a spare CD-ROM, and you have a computer with no CD-ROM but a spare hard disk, we can swap and both install Linux. Yippee! :D

If sleepy-head super-hero Gordon Gecko were to come along and ask who was the loser in the deal, we'd just laugh and tell him he was, since he was not involved. This property of containing non-zero sum games is not a trivial effect that is only seen in special cases.

Today, there are many living things on the planet. I imagine that from space, the presence of the biosphere is the most noticeable thing about the planet, since it keeps it out of chemical equilibrium as Lovelock's Gaia concept has demonstrated. Life has established this dominance by creating an ecosystem. In an ecosystem, all members are symbiotic. That is what "ecosystem" means if you think about it, and I believe that was the deeper meaning embodied in Guardian's quote regarding those who share will always have enough.

Denial afflicted people have this horrible habit of pre-narratization. They represent what they have seen on that film in their internal thinking space, and deny that anything else exists - before their surface awareness even registers what they've done. So they are always constrained to working with the things they know about, in the configurations they know about. They cannot take opportunities because they cannot see them. Thus they quickly achieve a state called "scarcity", and within this scarcity they 'know' that if one person acquires a resource, another must lose it - so fear enters. The inner inversion converts a non-zero sum game Universe into a zero sum game.

Then, they set about teaching their young. With the Universe turned inside out they cannot teach them any good reasons for not maximizing their own well-being at the expense of others. Yet they must do so, because otherwise (and from their point of view) their young become competitors for scarce resources. Since they cannot teach positive reasons for social behavior, they teach negative reasons for avoiding anti-social behavior.

This is probably where "morals" and "punishment" come from.

Sadly, not-anti-social does not equal social, since the Universe is not a mass of interlocking zero-sum games at all levels.

Not-anti-social does not bring the benefits of symbiotic interaction. Networking and sharing does, OSIT.

My 2 cents, fwiw. :)
 
Bud said:
Most of the time, I feel like I have within me everything I need to be able to survive. In other words, no matter how high your pile of gold, you will always need something. If I find out what that is and supply it, we can swap, because I live in a non-zero sum game Universe.

But I don't think everyone understands this - even many people in the Work and I sometimes wonder if it's because the mechanics and effects of Narcissistic wounding go so deep.

Fascinating….the non-zero sum universe you describe is the hope. Today, non-zero sum creation of the evolutionary impulse is diverted to the devolutionary impulse by coercion. The medium of storing, exchanging, and measuring our creation is debt money. One method of the diversion of the energy of the evolutionary impulse to the devolutionary impulse is accomplished by the mechanism of monopoly over debt money decreed the medium of exchanging, storing and measuring energy in the non-zero sum universe Bud describes.

The hope and significance of gold is its potential to facilitate the non-zero sum evolutionary impulse by making diversion of energy by fraud from the non-zero sum creation more difficult for zero-sum parasitism. The non-zero sum realization of human potential in the universe becomes more possible if we can understand how to prevent the diversion of the energy of creation into destruction of human potential by parasitism. I hypothesize gold has potential to serve mankind as the medium of exchange, store, and measure of energy in the non-zero sum creative universe. Gold offers a means to prevent one channel of diversion favored by the zero sum devolutionary impulse of pathology and its denizens. Perhaps, those with wisdom will deploy gold as the energy exchange, store, and measure when they rebuild the world from the remnants of what is to come.

This network is a fine example of Bud’s non-zero sum universe. Thank you all.
 
Gonzo said:
Hi go2, in the hope of trying to come to some type of objective assessment, do you think it is possible that gold might only be valuable in specific circumstances to specific people, considering the potential commetary bombardments, earthquakes, transdimensional realm crossing wave, etc. As well as the current financial reality for most people?

No, I think gold will be valuable for all, whether you possess it or not in the non-zero sum game Bud describes above. What matters is that we possess gold to serve as the medium of exchange, storage, and measure of human energy. War is limited when the energy of mankind's non-zero sum creation is not diverted into a war machine which destroys us and our creation. Gold makes is more difficult for psychopaths to coerce mankind into building and financing a war machine to destroy mankind.

Some fear psychopaths will control the gold. Some will, however even they will be constrained from waging war when they actually have to pay for war with their own gold.
Today, we are forced to buy the rope that will hang us. I ponder whether gold can and will serve this function after the destruction of the master slave system existing now on the planet. The coming collapse is also a once in many centuries opportunity to rebuild a world with wisdom. I do not advise anyone to buy gold for their own survival. I ponder the role of gold when the remnant rebuilds the world. IMO..the best personal preparation for what is coming is the Work.

Does this answer your questions?
 
go2 said:
Yes, discord...especially when gold is discussed with people who only know gold from disinformation and mythology of the popular press.

This is a 'suggestive' comment - though certainly not the only one in this thread. I don't mean to 'pick on you', go2, since you are not the only person evidencing identification in this thread.

It might be worthwhile for those of you evidencing emotional thinking and identification in this thread to stop and examine why that is. Identification stops thinking - it always does, to one extent or another. It can be no other way. If the posts of others in this thread have triggered reactions in you, ask yourself why and continue to follow that question until you find out. In that you'll discover what program is running in the background prompting the reactions evident in this thread. fwiw.
 
go2 said:
Can you see one can buy gold from hope and responsibility and not only from fear and greed?

No, but I understand how someone could convince themselves they can/do.

I understand and agree with your observations from your perspective. Your perspective assumes fear and greed are the only possible motive for owning gold.

Don't forget "power," it's a biggie ...although that does go hand in hand with greed.
 
SilverJeep said:
Has nothing to do with me.

Then why are you bothering to post to this thread?

I'm trying to understand your statement.
Why..if it has nothing to do with you?


That might be true if there were no psycopaths in the world. Seriously, are you saying that if you share all you have and you are beaten, raped and murdered, you got what you needed?

Psychopaths don't really understand the concept of "share" Do you? If so, why are you trying to confuse "share" with "steal?"

If you think this is about my fear of death, let's take "death" out and say; beaten, raped, robbed and left with nothing. Is that what you needed?

Evidently...if that's what I allowed to happen to me? Do you think any of us have any experiences we don't "need?"
 
mkrnhr said:
And also, when it is said "share/give to whoever asks", it automatically excludes psychopaths IMHO because they don't ask, they take (even though their taking strategy can look like as asking) :)

Exactly, I've never heard of a psychopath who could understand the reasoning behind "sharing"
 
RyanX said:
I'm sorry to say this, but this is starting to sound like an argument between children. :(

but..but ...but.... He started it!
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