Seaniebawn
Jedi Master
spyraal said:
Thanks for the update spyraal
Greece: debt, creditors, austerity measures, Syriza, Varoufakis, Troika
- Thread starter Green_Manalishi
- Start date
Thanks for the update spyraal
Yozilla
The Living Force
Things in Greece are twisting rapidly, almost from hour to hour. Now almost seems like Tsipras is not working for people... which could fit nicely with recent Varoufakis' (Keynesian disciple?) resignation - i mean Tsipras appointed him (ain't he?)... and this all reminded me that C's in some session told that PTB will try to install leftists in "power"... and we all know that division on lefts and rights is a plot - a totally false narrative - do we 
Seaniebawn
Jedi Master
Yozilla said:Things in Greece are twisting rapidly, almost from hour to hour. Now almost seems like Tsipras is not working for people... which could fit nicely with recent Varoufakis' (Keynesian disciple?) resignation - i mean Tsipras appointed him (ain't he?)... and this all reminded me that C's in some session told that PTB will try to install leftists in "power"... and we all know that division on lefts and rights is a plot - a totally false narrative - do we
it will be interesting to see which way this play's out, sound's like the divide and conquer tactic is in full swing .
I am very much afraid that with all the emotion hanging in the air, something stupid will happen. I mean: The days leading up to the referendum created a LOT of emotion inside Greek people. The majority felt pride, hope, a sense of justice, a "now we are going show them for what they did to us!". The OXI as result of the referendum only brought those emotions to their peak and then... nothing. Everything back to the usual. And yet all those feelings are still there.
I felt the same way, and I am all for a Grexit, and "F-them and we'll show them that we don't need them!" But I don't think that's how this world works. Russia, a superpower with all the resources and army and land and Putin with his supersmart people in his team and all his deals with the countries of BRICS, did not up and started a war against the nazis in Kiev to protect the national Russians who were being totally unjustly and brutally murdered - and still are. He did all he could through political communication and still does. Why? Because he knows what he is up against.
Just last week a bunch of my friends were posting on FB as if Tsipras was a hero. Now with this proposal for the European "partners", it's as if he betrayed them already. All the people in the streets calling for Grexit right now might not know what they are calling upon themselves. People in the streets don't realize what's at stake and how the enemy works. Sure, a few economists said that Greece will stand on its feet and will prosper after a few years of upheaval following a Grexit. Can the country afford this upheaval right now though? I too believe that Grexit is the best course, and who am I to judge Tsipras and his government, I don't think I'd be able to do half of what they did since they came to power, which is just 6 months. Putin took 15 years to be to the place where he is today, surrounded by people he trusts and turning Russia back to its superpower status.
But people out there in the streets of Greece, in their homes, they are angry, they are afraid, they feel betrayed, and something stupid might happen. Remember that the Golden Dawn people also voted OXI for their own reasons. So I am scared because of what I am witnessing. I wish the Greek people would give their PM a bit more time to see what he does before they start being angry at him. And I wish the international community who backed Tsipras on this referendum, give him some time too. He and his people have only just started. I am angry with the proposal too. I just read it. It's all against the OXI. But I am giving him my trust still waiting to see what will happen next.
I felt the same way, and I am all for a Grexit, and "F-them and we'll show them that we don't need them!" But I don't think that's how this world works. Russia, a superpower with all the resources and army and land and Putin with his supersmart people in his team and all his deals with the countries of BRICS, did not up and started a war against the nazis in Kiev to protect the national Russians who were being totally unjustly and brutally murdered - and still are. He did all he could through political communication and still does. Why? Because he knows what he is up against.
Just last week a bunch of my friends were posting on FB as if Tsipras was a hero. Now with this proposal for the European "partners", it's as if he betrayed them already. All the people in the streets calling for Grexit right now might not know what they are calling upon themselves. People in the streets don't realize what's at stake and how the enemy works. Sure, a few economists said that Greece will stand on its feet and will prosper after a few years of upheaval following a Grexit. Can the country afford this upheaval right now though? I too believe that Grexit is the best course, and who am I to judge Tsipras and his government, I don't think I'd be able to do half of what they did since they came to power, which is just 6 months. Putin took 15 years to be to the place where he is today, surrounded by people he trusts and turning Russia back to its superpower status.
But people out there in the streets of Greece, in their homes, they are angry, they are afraid, they feel betrayed, and something stupid might happen. Remember that the Golden Dawn people also voted OXI for their own reasons. So I am scared because of what I am witnessing. I wish the Greek people would give their PM a bit more time to see what he does before they start being angry at him. And I wish the international community who backed Tsipras on this referendum, give him some time too. He and his people have only just started. I am angry with the proposal too. I just read it. It's all against the OXI. But I am giving him my trust still waiting to see what will happen next.
It seems simple but yes is very complicated. Maybe Tsipras is a Troyan horse? Can it be? Or not? we read so much and I really don't know anymore. Maybe the fear of Russia is because Greeks remember the hard times with the Junta? They are maybe afraid that if they choose Russia it will be a coup by the army? Questions, questions. Thanks for all the information... It is really interesting what is happening, really. Day by day, sometimes I have the impression we are all tightrope walkers... All Europe is playing a funambulist part under a big circus tent that will fall dawn very soon.
luke wilson
The Living Force
The thing that gets me about Tsipras is that he is non-committal. He is risking alienating himself from all sides. He's been absolutely messing Russia around... that's what you call it. Then obviously he messed around the EU by calling that referendum. Now he is about to mess around the citizens who won the referendum. This is the definition of alienating oneself and in the political game, he is signing his own demise. I have no idea what game he is playing, but from the outside, this is how it looks.
Truth is, the EU will pillage Greece, so will the IMF and all other associated western financial institutions. That's the bottom line. Greek people better come to understand the bottomline - they have no friends in the west. There is not many ways that can be said. Unfettered capitalism is the mantra they sing and Greece is ripe for the picking and has been for awhile now.... they will never do anything different, they don't care, they are psychopaths. They have pillaged multiple countries around the globe... and continue to do so... why is Greece any different? What miracles do the people of Greece expect to befall them? I just don't get it. The truth is, it's hard to accept... but like so many countries, they'll be made to suffer and that's that. That's the sad reality. If there was a way out... others would have found it long before Greece stepped up to the treatment table.
Truth is, the EU will pillage Greece, so will the IMF and all other associated western financial institutions. That's the bottom line. Greek people better come to understand the bottomline - they have no friends in the west. There is not many ways that can be said. Unfettered capitalism is the mantra they sing and Greece is ripe for the picking and has been for awhile now.... they will never do anything different, they don't care, they are psychopaths. They have pillaged multiple countries around the globe... and continue to do so... why is Greece any different? What miracles do the people of Greece expect to befall them? I just don't get it. The truth is, it's hard to accept... but like so many countries, they'll be made to suffer and that's that. That's the sad reality. If there was a way out... others would have found it long before Greece stepped up to the treatment table.
After reading Ellen Brown's article - http://www.sott.net/article/298890-The-challenge-and-promise-of-Greece-Economic-guerrilla-warfare-against-a-hegemonic-power-via-nationalization-of-banks - I wonder why Tsipras doesn't just nationalize the banks like she recommends. Seems like it would be beneficial to the people and would really help Tsipras' popularity with them. Is there some serious drawback to that that I don't see? I mean, I don't like her idea of restricting cash withdrawals in that scenario, but it seems better than the Faustian deal with the Troika that will enrage the majority of the country's people.
Alana said:
Thanks Alana, I too have similar feelings this morning after reading that the Greek parliament had approved the bailout deal. The path ahead is definitely difficult - and we can only imagine what kind of "warnings" the Empire had already given to Tsipras beforehand; hence yes we should not judge Tsipras just yet one way or the other. There is still Sunday to come, and more days ahead in the "battle". To me, based on the evidence so far - i still think he is trying he's best for the Greek people under the present circumstances - hope I'm not wrong.
casper
The Living Force
It seems to me that the events with Greece could be a turning point for all EU members.
If Greece approves new loan, it could lead to a domino effect on the other members.
I believe that then, in the same way may require assistance and other countries, Italy, Spain, Portugal ...
This could lead to the disintegration of the "big" EU, Germany does not want to, because though it is the leading country in this whole circus.
If Greece not allow the aid package, if Greece leaves the eurozone, introduce the drachma, may again come to the domino effect, Austria has long been collecting signatures for leaving the EU, other countries will follow the example, I think this is really the beginning of the end of the reign of the EU.
If Greece approves new loan, it could lead to a domino effect on the other members.
I believe that then, in the same way may require assistance and other countries, Italy, Spain, Portugal ...
This could lead to the disintegration of the "big" EU, Germany does not want to, because though it is the leading country in this whole circus.
If Greece not allow the aid package, if Greece leaves the eurozone, introduce the drachma, may again come to the domino effect, Austria has long been collecting signatures for leaving the EU, other countries will follow the example, I think this is really the beginning of the end of the reign of the EU.
Mr.Cyan said:
It's very likely that we are both wrong though ;) Tsipras failed the people by backing this proposal (which we don't know if it will be accepted by the EU hawks yet) but going against him right now it's such a bad idea!
In the wee hours of the morning the proposal was approved, though a lot of the Syriza people did not vote for it. Even the chair of the parliament didn't. So there's already a split within Tsipras government, the yessers are all "see, we told you he was a liar", the Naysayers are very angry at him because he betrayed them (though he never promised them that their No vote meant a Grexit, on the contrary, he made it clear that the referendum was not about staying in the euro or not) so all in all, I see the makings of very bad times ahead in Greece, and I am pretty sure the current government won't last long. Golden Dawn now has its chance, and the winners of all these are those who implemented the life-crushing measures to begin with! Or that's my Cassandra-like take this lovely summer day...
Alana said:
Thanks Alana for the information and your feelings about what can happen in Greece. I have in my mind a picture I saw about seniors waiting desperately in front of a bank for nothing, I feel so sad an angry. The other day I hear a Argentinian program, they explained a little what it is a "corralito" (when the banks close and you can not take out money) and this is not a joke at all. They said that this corralito in Greece is an experiment as was the corralito in Argentina in 2001 I think so. When you don't have money at all (because the banks are inaccessible) to eat or to pay medication, this is what I think when I think about Greeks. I have to read more and more about Greece but as I said yesterday, the more I read the more I feel ignorant. That's why your point of vue is appreciated.
@Heimdallr,
I read Ellen Brown's article on SOTT this morning. I agree that they should nationalize the Greek banks, including the Central Bank (but that's one's real tricky). I read a whole bunch of conflicting things early this morning about the situation in Greece, and I hadn't had time to come on the forum all day. But I'm in a wait and see mode, because there are many claims that there's a whole lot going on in the background (and has been for a while). Wish I had more time to check out some of the links I ran into this morning and post them here. I'll see what I can do tomorrow.
This is a good post by Saker (originally written for Unz Review) that fits in this thread too:
http://thesaker.is/a-tale-of-two-world-orders-unz-review-column/
I read Ellen Brown's article on SOTT this morning. I agree that they should nationalize the Greek banks, including the Central Bank (but that's one's real tricky). I read a whole bunch of conflicting things early this morning about the situation in Greece, and I hadn't had time to come on the forum all day. But I'm in a wait and see mode, because there are many claims that there's a whole lot going on in the background (and has been for a while). Wish I had more time to check out some of the links I ran into this morning and post them here. I'll see what I can do tomorrow.
This is a good post by Saker (originally written for Unz Review) that fits in this thread too:
http://thesaker.is/a-tale-of-two-world-orders-unz-review-column/
spyraal
Jedi Master
I have been listening to the talks in the Greek parliament until late night. I can only say I feel deeply sad and disappointed, even betrayed, although I am aware of the nature of this world and the workings of the psychopaths that constitute the PTB. Tsipras may have signed his own and SYRIZA's political death by supporting this proposal. He came to be himself a supporter or even worst, a promoter of all he opposed so far. I doubt if Greeks will ever forgive him for delivering the country (or even suggesting to do so) to the claws of the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) with this agreement. ESM, a truly horrific and totalitarian construct that has unlimited powers over the countries that are subject to it, it's decision making is completely opaque, answers to no-one and has complete immunity from any court or legal prosecution. A country entering ESM is permanently giving away it's statehood status. After this agreement, Greece will no longer be even a debt colony: It will be a non-state, an empty shell that reads "Greece" as a catchy word for tourists and German pensioners who will be claiming a piece of sunny Greek land after an obedient life-long servitude to the modern the German Empire, like the old-time legionnaires were retired to a piece of land on the conquered territories after having served the expansion of the Roman Empire.
In my view the unfortunate moment Tsipras came to support this agreement may mark the beginning of the end of his credibility and the support he enjoyed from the Greek people. That is what the PTB wanted most, his political assassination (or forced suicide), and they have succeeded. For a great many people he can now be considered barely different that any of the previous puppet prime ministers Greek people came to hate and despise. And you know what is the most sinister thing that may happen next? Germany may NOT sign the agreement. Why? With Tsipras' public image and connection to the people damaged, with SYRIZA having lost it's direction and cohesion, he will have nor the will nor the citizens' support to proceed to a Grexit even after a German decline. Even if on Monday Tsipras has no agreement, it might be just a week too late, after having lost the chance to ride the positive wave of OXI from the referendum. His government will probably divide and fall, and it will soon be substituted by an obedient government of Brussels selected "technocrats" supplemented by local puppets from the other old-guard corrupt parties, even without elections as the "emergency situation dictates". That will signify a new historical period of the end of Democracies (even in their limited current form) as they will be deemed "too risky" for global economic stability and security.
Greeks have been duped, and now I only hope the majority of them who supported the OXI vote will come together and do what has to be done when a people is faced with an imminent existential threat from a overt tyranny. There is still a chance for a last stand for the Greek people, while the sense of unity and empowerment from the recent referendum still lasts. At least for me, and many other people I know here in Greece, we know what has to be done next. We are all limited and mortal 3rd density beings after all. Nothing much to lose from a life of slavery, suppression and disgrace.
Thank you.
In my view the unfortunate moment Tsipras came to support this agreement may mark the beginning of the end of his credibility and the support he enjoyed from the Greek people. That is what the PTB wanted most, his political assassination (or forced suicide), and they have succeeded. For a great many people he can now be considered barely different that any of the previous puppet prime ministers Greek people came to hate and despise. And you know what is the most sinister thing that may happen next? Germany may NOT sign the agreement. Why? With Tsipras' public image and connection to the people damaged, with SYRIZA having lost it's direction and cohesion, he will have nor the will nor the citizens' support to proceed to a Grexit even after a German decline. Even if on Monday Tsipras has no agreement, it might be just a week too late, after having lost the chance to ride the positive wave of OXI from the referendum. His government will probably divide and fall, and it will soon be substituted by an obedient government of Brussels selected "technocrats" supplemented by local puppets from the other old-guard corrupt parties, even without elections as the "emergency situation dictates". That will signify a new historical period of the end of Democracies (even in their limited current form) as they will be deemed "too risky" for global economic stability and security.
Greeks have been duped, and now I only hope the majority of them who supported the OXI vote will come together and do what has to be done when a people is faced with an imminent existential threat from a overt tyranny. There is still a chance for a last stand for the Greek people, while the sense of unity and empowerment from the recent referendum still lasts. At least for me, and many other people I know here in Greece, we know what has to be done next. We are all limited and mortal 3rd density beings after all. Nothing much to lose from a life of slavery, suppression and disgrace.
Thank you.
spyraal said:
To what end, Spyraal?
A lot of people say, "I have nothing to lose" until they realize that there is always more to lose.
It's the Hunger Games, Spyraal. Remember who the real enemy is. When all is said and done inside the arena (and me, you, the Tsipras' government, the people of Greece are all disposable players inside the arena), when all the blood has been shed inside the arena, it will be controlled still by the Game Masters outside. The more the chaos and blood produced in the arena, the happier the Masters. And nobody will care what happens to Greece, like nobody cares what happens to Ukraine, or Gaza, or Iraq or Libya, or any of these poor places that have been destroyed for a psychopathic whim.