Gaby said:
Wow, it makes sense, it's a pretty delicate matter. Thanks for the heads up Gaby! It's not in my list anymore
"Healing Developmental Trauma" by L. Heller and A. LaPierre
- Thread starter Arwenn
- Start date
Wow, it makes sense, it's a pretty delicate matter. Thanks for the heads up Gaby! It's not in my list anymore
Gaby said:
Thank you Laura and Gaby for these words. I am feeling and seeing it the same way lately. I could not have said it better. I had the thought recently, will I at some point just plead the 5th (as in 5D) or will I just plow through. I prefer the later but I suppose I still have to "Wait and see". I bought the Healing Developmental Trauma book and will read that after finishing Whoever Fights Monsters.
We should just stay "in the kitchen" I think (hopefully it will just seem warm and cozy but probably it a bit more uncomfortable than that).
Mr. Premise
The Living Force
Great book. I’m about halfway through but it’s already had an effect. I found myself having more memories of childhood, which I hadn’t been having recently. Just knowing there is something you can do in the present about proverbial traumas is huge. I woke up last night at 3 am and started worrying about stuff like you tend to do then. Then I told myself, maybe this is just a reflection of proverbial trauma and I instantly calmed down and went back to sleep. Looking forward to finishing it.
I'm in chapter 10 of the book right now and I agree that it's being really helpful in identifying and understanding a bit better why I have some very hard-wired shame and fear emotions that are totally limiting yet so difficult to adress intellectually. It comes right in time because I was thinking about this just a few months back. I understand intellectually that so many of my thoughts and emotions aren't real, or based on an accurate assessment of reality, so why is it that I still have this ingrained in me? I became hopeless of ever being able to go over these feelings and my attitude was one of resignation, as in "Ok, I have this basic shame and fear inside me and I guess I'll just have to learn to live with it and cope". And one of the things that I thought at the time was that maybe this feelings were related to something preverbal, and therefore, it was very hard, if not impossible, to access and address it from an intellectual understanding.
Now, by reading this book I am hopefull of being able to address this and at least be able to better deal with this deep shame and fear so that they become less limiting. And knowing that most people deal with issues like these, I'm happy because, thanks to Laura once again, more people have these tools available. I know that there's still hard work to do, but I'm hopefull after reading how the books are helping so many already, myself included.
Samenow does give a very good "top-down" approach, along with some of what the HDT gives as examples of emotions and thoughts related to each survival style. And I guess that Neurofeedback, EE and some of those "grounding" excercises will help with the "bottom-up" approach. Fortunately, I've found a place that offers NeurOptimal treatment, so I'll be reporting on the neurofeedback thread about how it goes. Other than that, I'm still catching up with the reading which I think will be useful to work more on my thinking errors.
Realizing just how much of our identity and personality are built upon these thiking errors, narratives and hard-wired default emotions, it's kind of exciting to think about what will come up after we apply this new knowledge and after neurofeedback. There are people who are so creative already here, so I can imagine how that creativity could be boosted after this work.
Now, by reading this book I am hopefull of being able to address this and at least be able to better deal with this deep shame and fear so that they become less limiting. And knowing that most people deal with issues like these, I'm happy because, thanks to Laura once again, more people have these tools available. I know that there's still hard work to do, but I'm hopefull after reading how the books are helping so many already, myself included.
Samenow does give a very good "top-down" approach, along with some of what the HDT gives as examples of emotions and thoughts related to each survival style. And I guess that Neurofeedback, EE and some of those "grounding" excercises will help with the "bottom-up" approach. Fortunately, I've found a place that offers NeurOptimal treatment, so I'll be reporting on the neurofeedback thread about how it goes. Other than that, I'm still catching up with the reading which I think will be useful to work more on my thinking errors.
Realizing just how much of our identity and personality are built upon these thiking errors, narratives and hard-wired default emotions, it's kind of exciting to think about what will come up after we apply this new knowledge and after neurofeedback. There are people who are so creative already here, so I can imagine how that creativity could be boosted after this work.
Mr. Premise
The Living Force
Yes!Laura said:
Thank you to everyone who shared in this thread so far. I can relate deeply.
I'm about 1/3rd of the way through this book and have just got to say some stuff.
The connection survival style describes me so perfectly that I was really just lost for words. I have a fair bit of the Sexuality style as well (although I never was amazingly successful at becoming "perfect and physically attractive" and also some of the autonomy one.
I mean it really all makes sense.
I've always sucked at relating to other people, talking to other people etc. Not knowing what to say, how to act, how to fit in. There is just this thick cloud of fear, uncertainty, dissociation from reality, and a deep feeling of inhibition that is at the non-verbal level. Sometimes I can overcome it quite well, other times not at all.
For instance, I've always wanted more friends, more connection and more aliveness on a conscious level, but when it comes down to actually experiencing that, a deeper part of me often just wants to perceive the universe and everyone else in it as a threat. It just wants to withdraw, it tends to shut me down, or to fill me with fear, or to suddenly make me feel really tired, to restrict my breathing, to take away the flow of words or ideas. And I have never found a way of fixing that "IT" which I just cant seem to change or communicate with. Incredibly frustrating.
I was captivated by alcohol and stimulant drugs because they allow me to feel alive by removing some of all that temporarily. However I was fortunate to see what alcohol did to my dad, and to never become reliant on it. I'm almost 100% sure that he had this exact same issue.
For the past few days I've also had a pretty bad flu, which has brought back those feelings of fear and panic to a huge level. I can remember other times I felt like this - honestly it seems like my whole life. I even remember being 5 years old and feeling sick to my stomach, worrying over a stupid piece of homework I couldn't do. Or being 12-14 years old where every day in school was characterized by a constant background terror, almost all of it unfounded. Or when I first went to university, and instead of excitement and curiosity just a constant fear and uncertainty.
To express my feelings simply and candidly right now, after reading this book I just feel robbed. Absolutely pissed off. Something so small as a bit of developmental trauma can completely alter the course of your life. I mean how unfair can you get! Most people who've had these issues have already lived and died, they were none the wiser and had no idea how to fix them, and they probably made no progress because it is ingrained at such a deep level that it looks almost impossible to overcome through any traditional method.
If the steps in the book and the neurofeedback provide some help in re balancing this crazy brain then I will be grateful beyond words.
All in all the story so far is basically that my life started off pretty bad, had some very bad moments, and has gradually gotten better as time went along and I learned more and applied more. I've got better at coping but damn, the irrational fears never went away yet.
I'm about 1/3rd of the way through this book and have just got to say some stuff.
The connection survival style describes me so perfectly that I was really just lost for words. I have a fair bit of the Sexuality style as well (although I never was amazingly successful at becoming "perfect and physically attractive" and also some of the autonomy one.
I mean it really all makes sense.
I've always sucked at relating to other people, talking to other people etc. Not knowing what to say, how to act, how to fit in. There is just this thick cloud of fear, uncertainty, dissociation from reality, and a deep feeling of inhibition that is at the non-verbal level. Sometimes I can overcome it quite well, other times not at all.
For instance, I've always wanted more friends, more connection and more aliveness on a conscious level, but when it comes down to actually experiencing that, a deeper part of me often just wants to perceive the universe and everyone else in it as a threat. It just wants to withdraw, it tends to shut me down, or to fill me with fear, or to suddenly make me feel really tired, to restrict my breathing, to take away the flow of words or ideas. And I have never found a way of fixing that "IT" which I just cant seem to change or communicate with. Incredibly frustrating.
I was captivated by alcohol and stimulant drugs because they allow me to feel alive by removing some of all that temporarily. However I was fortunate to see what alcohol did to my dad, and to never become reliant on it. I'm almost 100% sure that he had this exact same issue.
For the past few days I've also had a pretty bad flu, which has brought back those feelings of fear and panic to a huge level. I can remember other times I felt like this - honestly it seems like my whole life. I even remember being 5 years old and feeling sick to my stomach, worrying over a stupid piece of homework I couldn't do. Or being 12-14 years old where every day in school was characterized by a constant background terror, almost all of it unfounded. Or when I first went to university, and instead of excitement and curiosity just a constant fear and uncertainty.
To express my feelings simply and candidly right now, after reading this book I just feel robbed. Absolutely pissed off. Something so small as a bit of developmental trauma can completely alter the course of your life. I mean how unfair can you get! Most people who've had these issues have already lived and died, they were none the wiser and had no idea how to fix them, and they probably made no progress because it is ingrained at such a deep level that it looks almost impossible to overcome through any traditional method.
If the steps in the book and the neurofeedback provide some help in re balancing this crazy brain then I will be grateful beyond words.
All in all the story so far is basically that my life started off pretty bad, had some very bad moments, and has gradually gotten better as time went along and I learned more and applied more. I've got better at coping but damn, the irrational fears never went away yet.
Carl said:
Thanks for sharing Carl. Alcoholism runs in my family too and one reason I at least had a fighting chance to not go fully down that path was seeing my brothers struggle with it and also how it affected my father and family.
I was thinking the same thing in terms of the bolded part. The HDT and other books and just observing what is happening in the world makes it clear that there is a huge gulf between what children should experience and what they actually get from parents. A lot of people don't even get a crack at a healthy beginning with all the damage that is caused and seems like the damage gets passed down thru the generations. The only way to stop the damage seems to be to work on the self as best as a person can. Kind of like debugging the past. And that the damage caused and lack of education and proper upbringing of children on so many levels could be both a big piece of the problem and possible solution. If I remember right, the conversation with Caesar highlighted raising children and it was also highlighted in other C's sessions.
Corvus
Dagobah Resident
Carl,
Most of here have gonne in one phase of their life or are still going through the phase you re mentioning. Nobody leaves this place unscathed if he has any conscience and emotions, the more the worse influence it leaves. Leaving in the present is a cure, but also a test of will.
Most of here have gonne in one phase of their life or are still going through the phase you re mentioning. Nobody leaves this place unscathed if he has any conscience and emotions, the more the worse influence it leaves. Leaving in the present is a cure, but also a test of will.
Thanks, Carl, for a very eloquent expression of our dilemma.
Much of what you wrote I could have written myself some years back and definitely there are still remnants. But Ark was pretty much my therapist and we worked much in the way that the woman describes toward the end of the book. And yeah, I was almost in as bad shape at the end of my first marriage. I only realized after reading this that our relationship was so therapeutic in real terms!
Then I had to go through the baptism by fire dealing with the crazies like Vinnie Bridges. That was particularly hard because of my "developmental trauma". But Ark was there through that, also. And most definitely love for my children and the desire to help others kept me going. And still does.
Much of what you wrote I could have written myself some years back and definitely there are still remnants. But Ark was pretty much my therapist and we worked much in the way that the woman describes toward the end of the book. And yeah, I was almost in as bad shape at the end of my first marriage. I only realized after reading this that our relationship was so therapeutic in real terms!
Then I had to go through the baptism by fire dealing with the crazies like Vinnie Bridges. That was particularly hard because of my "developmental trauma". But Ark was there through that, also. And most definitely love for my children and the desire to help others kept me going. And still does.
Laura said:
It was quite the revelation for me to hear that you have been going through this stuff the whole time as well.
It was easy to imagine that you were always just an extremely capable person with a with a big bad attitude, creating a worldwide network of people, fighting off all kinds of attacks, showing evil spirits who's boss etc. I mean this just puts what you have achieved on a whole new level, it really is an inspiration.
I've been thinking a bit more about this today.
On the one hand, with having such a challenge (trauma), there is obviously very real value in the lessons it gives. For instance, it can show you the value of overcoming fear and going well beyond the comfort zone. When you do actually achieve something that you thought you could never do, or were too afraid to do, maybe it has more value than if it was done by some happy-go-lucky person.
On the other hand, it is basically a disability. It gives psychopaths and manipulative people a massive advantage over you. It makes it much harder to achieve anything in the world, to express yourself, and yes even to network!
So I guess to simplify it, you can say developmental trauma is like a well designed perfect program (instilled by 4D rulers?) to hamper the potential of a person to make an impact upon the world. But that this program is also all part of the school and in and of itself provides a means to growth.
Yes, maybe without it, we would probably have never searched for deeper answers. But too much of it seems to constrict growth as well.
Maybe what is 'acceptable' and what is 'too much' simply depends on the intensity?
And if you reach the point where you already know enough of the Truth, do you still need the fear as motivation? Would it be wise to get rid of it? I mean at least for the totally irrational stuff based on your 6 month old self, I can't see why not. Obviously there is real stuff that is worth being afraid of as well.
Re: Raine, Samenow, Fallon: Neuropsychology & The Work
Sometimes it is impossible to know the root cause, that's the case if it happened during the preverbal stage for example. If you manage to identify the root cause, it is important to not 're-traumatize', to do so it is recommended to go progressively, to be in a safe environment and to stay in the 'now', i.e. to be connected with your own sensations and emotions during the process.
You're right, identifying the root cause, if possible is only the first step and here lies the first trap: to identify as a victim. At this point it is important to realize that the acquired behavior was a survival mechanism that was useful at the time but that is detrimental now.
In other terms, it is important to be aware that this survival mechanism is not needed anymore and that the survival mechanism has a negative impact on you and others. This last point is the main driver to avoid identifying as a victim and starting to become who you want to be.
Keyhole said:
Sometimes it is impossible to know the root cause, that's the case if it happened during the preverbal stage for example. If you manage to identify the root cause, it is important to not 're-traumatize', to do so it is recommended to go progressively, to be in a safe environment and to stay in the 'now', i.e. to be connected with your own sensations and emotions during the process.
You're right, identifying the root cause, if possible is only the first step and here lies the first trap: to identify as a victim. At this point it is important to realize that the acquired behavior was a survival mechanism that was useful at the time but that is detrimental now.
In other terms, it is important to be aware that this survival mechanism is not needed anymore and that the survival mechanism has a negative impact on you and others. This last point is the main driver to avoid identifying as a victim and starting to become who you want to be.
Re: Re: Raine, Samenow, Fallon: Neuropsychology & The Work
I think that's still true. One of the things I don't like about the HDT book is how they present everything the book as pretty much open-and-shut, tons of declarations of fact without much data to back them up, all wrapped into one big 'grand-theory' picture. Sure a lot of it makes sense - it's plausible - but I think the most helpful thing is the in-the-moment techniques to actually create change within. Basically, get your nervous system in order - and get your thinking in order. The trauma pathways may be true - but all that's really necessary is to see the symptoms in yourself, think, "OK, this looks like a blocked-anger-leading-to-shame kind of thing", and do something about it. If you match some of the descriptions of the survival styles, you can basically use them as a roadmap for something having gone wrong that requires a course correction. Maybe you have trauma that is remembered - maybe not - but the point is that whether or not that's the case, the way of acting now isn't required anymore. It is useful for children, but not adults, so it's time to grow up by taking care of yourself (in the self-regulating kind of way) and taking responsibility (in the Samenow kind of way).
Keyhole said:
I think that's still true. One of the things I don't like about the HDT book is how they present everything the book as pretty much open-and-shut, tons of declarations of fact without much data to back them up, all wrapped into one big 'grand-theory' picture. Sure a lot of it makes sense - it's plausible - but I think the most helpful thing is the in-the-moment techniques to actually create change within. Basically, get your nervous system in order - and get your thinking in order. The trauma pathways may be true - but all that's really necessary is to see the symptoms in yourself, think, "OK, this looks like a blocked-anger-leading-to-shame kind of thing", and do something about it. If you match some of the descriptions of the survival styles, you can basically use them as a roadmap for something having gone wrong that requires a course correction. Maybe you have trauma that is remembered - maybe not - but the point is that whether or not that's the case, the way of acting now isn't required anymore. It is useful for children, but not adults, so it's time to grow up by taking care of yourself (in the self-regulating kind of way) and taking responsibility (in the Samenow kind of way).
Re: Re: Raine, Samenow, Fallon: Neuropsychology & The Work
In HDT, they put a lot of emphasis on "connecting with/staying in the present", i.e. the discovery and reflection of early trauma have one purpose only: to re-calibrate our thinking in order to change in the here and now. It seems they are very aware of the trap of identifying with trauma and using it as a grand excuse.
I also would add that "root cause" might be a misleading expression - there is no direct causality here IMO (if this even exists at all). We always have a choice, we always have responsibility for our actions. Yes, as a toddler, all that is very limited or hardly exists. But our later choices are still our choices I think - they are strongly influenced by our developmental trauma, but at every point in our journey we could have acted differently, maybe because of our conscience, our moral ideals etc. And proof of that is, I think, that even in our ignorance, most of us would probably say that sometimes we did the right thing, against all odds. So I'm not entirely buying the blaming of our upbringing for our faults. It's just a tool to better understand what drives us unconsciously and fight it more effectively using understanding and clear thinking.
I'm only 1/3 into HDT, but I noticed this lack of empirical evidence too, I hoped that this would come later in the book. So it seems they distilled the theory and the survival styles from their accumulated experience, empathetic intuition and self-reflection, rather than scientific experiment. And so far I must say it's astonishing - one of the survival styles (Autonomy) describes my whole life experience and that of my siblings so well it's almost spooky! So however they did it, they seem to be onto something.
Keyhole said:
In HDT, they put a lot of emphasis on "connecting with/staying in the present", i.e. the discovery and reflection of early trauma have one purpose only: to re-calibrate our thinking in order to change in the here and now. It seems they are very aware of the trap of identifying with trauma and using it as a grand excuse.
I also would add that "root cause" might be a misleading expression - there is no direct causality here IMO (if this even exists at all). We always have a choice, we always have responsibility for our actions. Yes, as a toddler, all that is very limited or hardly exists. But our later choices are still our choices I think - they are strongly influenced by our developmental trauma, but at every point in our journey we could have acted differently, maybe because of our conscience, our moral ideals etc. And proof of that is, I think, that even in our ignorance, most of us would probably say that sometimes we did the right thing, against all odds. So I'm not entirely buying the blaming of our upbringing for our faults. It's just a tool to better understand what drives us unconsciously and fight it more effectively using understanding and clear thinking.
Approaching Infinity said:
I'm only 1/3 into HDT, but I noticed this lack of empirical evidence too, I hoped that this would come later in the book. So it seems they distilled the theory and the survival styles from their accumulated experience, empathetic intuition and self-reflection, rather than scientific experiment. And so far I must say it's astonishing - one of the survival styles (Autonomy) describes my whole life experience and that of my siblings so well it's almost spooky! So however they did it, they seem to be onto something.
Re: Re: Raine, Samenow, Fallon: Neuropsychology & The Work
Yep, that was my impression as well: they reached their conclusions through their therapeutic work. And I think they really nailed the "types" they describe. I'm just skeptical as to how normative the whole schema is. Basically, the schema is probably valid for the people who fit the type, but those individuals may be a subset of the wider population. I.e., if you took a hundred random kids who all experienced the exact same sorts of trauma, not all of them would turn out the same way. Some people are more "traumatizable" than others. And I think some of their "symptoms" are just personality differences. Like when they listed "interest in things vs interest in people" as linked to a survival type. Well, either men are more traumatized than women, or they're letting their own bias creep into their theory. I.e., "people with compassion are better than people without" - maybe that's true, but the "symptom" may have nothing to do with trauma.
luc said:
Yep, that was my impression as well: they reached their conclusions through their therapeutic work. And I think they really nailed the "types" they describe. I'm just skeptical as to how normative the whole schema is. Basically, the schema is probably valid for the people who fit the type, but those individuals may be a subset of the wider population. I.e., if you took a hundred random kids who all experienced the exact same sorts of trauma, not all of them would turn out the same way. Some people are more "traumatizable" than others. And I think some of their "symptoms" are just personality differences. Like when they listed "interest in things vs interest in people" as linked to a survival type. Well, either men are more traumatized than women, or they're letting their own bias creep into their theory. I.e., "people with compassion are better than people without" - maybe that's true, but the "symptom" may have nothing to do with trauma.
