"Healing Developmental Trauma" by L. Heller and A. LaPierre

PERLOU

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Merci Trytofly, je viens de suivre ton conseil pour Duolingo...

Thank you Trytofly, I just took your advice for Duolingo...
 

genero81

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: Raine, Samenow, Fallon: Neuropsychology & The Work

Pierre said:
Keyhole said:
I am slightly confused now though, because after reading Samenow I was left with the impression that searching for the root cause of the issues could very well just act as buffer against changing the behaviours. Like saying "hey, until I understand the root cause of my issues, you will just have to deal with my behaviour for now". Not that I actually say that out loud, or even think that way, but I am concerned that through investing too much effort into understanding my past (possible) traumas in more depth, that the focus will be taken away from challenging my thinking patterns and controlling my behaviour - if that makes any sense at all.
Sometimes it is impossible to know the root cause, that's the case if it happened during the preverbal stage for example. If you manage to identify the root cause, it is important to not 're-traumatize', to do so it is recommended to go progressively, to be in a safe environment and to stay in the 'now', i.e. to be connected with your own sensations and emotions during the process.

You're right, identifying the root cause, if possible is only the first step and here lies the first trap: to identify as a victim. At this point it is important to realize that the acquired behavior was a survival mechanism that was useful at the time but that is detrimental now.

In other terms, it is important to be aware that this survival mechanism is not needed anymore and that the survival mechanism has a negative impact on you and others. This last point is the main driver to avoid identifying as a victim and starting to become who you want to be.
I'm reading this book now. I have been curious about Castaneda's concept of the 'predator's maneuver.' I came to the idea that the root of that was fear. I mean, we as a species are completely dependent and vulnerable as infants and even as children. So we have this sort of natural way of interacting with reality in an open and curious way as long as we feel safe. But invariably at some point there's some sort of perceived threat, and of course there can be actual threats as well. So we begin to adopt survival strategies which is no doubt sort of built into the psyche as a mechanism for self preservation. Problem is it becomes set and persists long after it's usefulness has expired.

I was having a conversation with my roommate last night. He's 70 and has been working in his own way on self development for decades. He says to me; " we find out as adults that we're living lives designed by a six year old." Regardless of how accurate that statement is, I think there 's a lot of truth there. So Castaneda goes on to say in his creative way couched in the mysterious, that the predators ruthlessly consume flares of awareness resulting from our pseudo concerns. And that's what occurs to me as I read through the various survival strategies. We're doing 'senseless figures in front of a mirror' trapped there by our unnecessary self concerns. Trapped as it were in the land of Oz. When all we really need to do is realize; "there's no place like home," and let all that unnecessary stuff go and return to the natural state of openness and curiosity with which we first engaged reality. Free up that energy to pursue whatever our Aim or purpose is- to engage in the process that Laura referred to in the last session. And we get to have more genuine, satisfying and expansive relationships.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
 

fabric

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Laura said:
I think assessing yourself via the information in the book is much better than the online test which seems to be rather ambiguous and possibly a little misleading.
I did the online quiz but didn’t really think it was all that accurate or put too much stock in it. It was saying that my main coping style was love-sexuality. While there are some aspects I identified with, it seemed that the quiz put too much weight on certain questions. When reading the book my first impressions led towards connection and attunement as being most present. I made my own ‘report’ from the notes (attached below) to see if that would help. All it really is, is a checklist and just added up the stuff in each chapter. It did help a bit, mainly confirming what I found through my initial reading those chapters, but also indicated a strong presence of autonomy and to a lesser extent, love-sexuality. Trust scored pretty low on both methods (quiz vs self-report).

------------------

Connection

What I found interesting in this section was their description of the 2 types. I fall under the thinking subtype. I’ve often found that I had a hard time trying to define what I’m actually feeling, though I’ve improved in that aspect, it was always something that I noticed and had trouble trying to reconcile it as I couldn’t think of anything from memory that would lead to that. However if there is a pre-verbal factor that could explain a lot.

Other things like feeling like never fitting in, being a burden on others also popped out for me. It’s funny because the shame based identifications are exactly what I’m telling myself when I’m a negative state and the pride based ones, in this case “pride in rationality and non-emotionality”, I’ve always thought as something completely separate but now have to consider that being an element in the adaptive strategy. I didn’t like reading that at all really. It was one thing that I could tell myself that counted as a ‘positive’ quality but seeing in that respect was like having that taken away from me. But if I am using it as a ‘crutch’ to compensate for something that was missing in me, then it’s better in the end because it will allow further development in those areas that need to be addressed.

Another thing that I hadn’t considered was the factors around my mom’s pregnancy. At the time my mother was pregnant with me, she had to deal with her family, who weren’t all that excited about her being pregnant – reason being it was done out of wedlock. They were so much against it that they all kept trying to get her to have an abortion and I can only imagine the stress and isolation she felt. I also wonder if I may also have picked up on their intentions and sensed that ‘everyone wants me dead’ which also can’t be good.

Attunement

This adaptive style I found to be a close second. This was also broken down into 2 main types of which I consider myself to be of the inhibited subtype. Particularly the ‘lack of entitlement’. I would often feel that I’m not entitled to anything and think “why do I even deserve this? I’ve done nothing special or deserving of it.” Even if I’ve worked really hard at something, I shouldn’t be rewarded or recognized. Same goes for having ‘needs’. The example they give of their one client who says “I’m an expert at making do with the minimum” was exactly something I would say!

The other thing that I saw that I did a lot was not eat or forget to eat when stressed. This happened a lot at my old job, especially when we were commissioning a project. I’d be so focused on getting the work done and keeping the customer happy that stopping to take a break or eat wouldn’t be on the radar at all.

One other characteristic which stuck out for me was ‘weak expression of anger with a tendency to be more irritable than angry’ (paraphrasing here). I’d say I get ‘annoyed’ more than anything. But being able to get angry and express that in a positive manner is important. It’s not that I’m repressing anything (at least I don’t think so) but that it just doesn’t “manifest”. Though it may be related to ‘disconnect from emotion’ in the connection style adaptive strategy.

Trust

I didn’t really identify with too many of the features described in the trust section had a hard time ascribing those methods to periods in my life. Though it seems that if one is more of an attunement type then it would stand that trust would be less so as an adaptive style. One focuses on others, while the other focuses on the self.

Autonomy

Autonomy was also was where a few things stood out, but not to the degree as the first two. I did find this statement on the mark: “pleasing others and feeling resentful and pitiful”. Similar to attunement where one puts others needs in place of their own, the feeling associated with doing that makes one feel resentment or sorry for oneself. I have noticed times where I’ve done that and felt bad about it. It was very confusing because I couldn’t really understand why I should feel bad about it. When you do something for someone else it should feel good right? Not always so. Looking at it from the perspective of autonomy, I see that there is a reason for it and I don’t feel totally lost when thinking about it.

Another thing I picked up on was that I had a tendancy to put a lot of pressure on myself, but then externalize it and tell myself that it was everyone else that had these expectations of me. Tied into that is further pressure to perform to some ‘ideal’ I created for myself and if I didn’t live up to it, I would disappoint everyone and be rejected or unloved. So there would be an underlying fear woven into anything I would do. However, by pretending others are putting pressure on me, all I am really doing is abdicating responsibility and evading the issue.

Love sexuality

For this one the online quiz said this was my primary one but the reason I don’t really agree is that in the book, the mantra is ““I will be so perfect, so attractive, that everyone will be drawn to me, and I will never have to face rejection again.” Which I don’t really think, nor want anyone drawn to me. I rather no one pay any attention to me at all (that ties back to connection). While I do see that I am more orientated towards doing, I don’t consider emotions to be a weakness and desire to feel things at a deeper level (again, more of a connection thing I think). There were some other characteristics I could relate to (like being hard on myself) but many of them I didn’t really see as something that was a dominant thing.

------------------

There is a lot of overlap within the adaptive styles, and I think many would have elements of all to some degree or other. The dysfunction present in one’s lives is also quite variable since some people are naturally more resilient but the elements of dysregulation are still there and prevent one from moving forward I think. It’s a block at a very deep level. Being able to see the landscape and arrive at some conjecture about what types of things could be driving our actions and behaviours is immensely useful.

However, the top-down approach only takes you so far. What does seem to a running theme through all of them is the undercurrent of fear. Fear of truly being. And those fears, however they are manifested, are so much part of our core and formed before we could make sense of the world that it’s a wonder that anything ever got done at all! The courage that everyone has to push on despite that does give me some hope, and to extend that, faith that these things can be overcome. If we so choose to.

The example cases (which were quite extreme) also provided much food for thought. I did wonder how to address that when the degree of dysregulation is mild or low. How does one work at it from the bottom-up approach? The therapy method seemed a bit overkill for those that could more less function to a fair degree in society. I think that’s where something like neurofeedback can be really helpful. If there is system wide dysregulation from early traumas, and this is somehow reflected in our brain wave patterns, then using something like NO to address that dysregulation has the potential to return our body to a more regulated state. A way of bringing some order to the chaos inside our minds and bodies at a level beyond our awareness. The potential that lies there is quite amazing indeed.
 

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Wodnik

Jedi

Balance

The Force is Strong With This One
Altair said:
Autonomy

Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style have had to face the dilemma of choosing between themselves or their parents. To submit to their parents leaves them feeling invaded, controlled, and crushed. On the other hand, their loving feelings and the need to maintain the attachment relationship keep them from overtly challenging parents. Faced with the impossible choice of trying to maintain the integrity of the self while keeping the love of the parents leaves them in a no-win situation. These children adapt to this dilemma by overtly submitting to parental power while secretly holding out. { This is so damn true for me that I can only laugh now because it's soooo obvious ... } To do this, these children develop a powerful, though often covert, will.
{ Since by only reading these quotes Altair posted, I found that I resemble so much the Autonomy type...some scenes from childhood and adolescence came to my mind...but more on that down in the post. }

In adults who have developed this adaptive survival style, self-assertion and overt expressions of independence and autonomy are experienced as dangerous and to be avoided. The major fears that fuel this survival adaptation are the fears of being criticized, rejected, and abandoned. { I will have to add that there is also a fear of not being understood in the manner that other people won't be able to understand what I'm telling them(wants/needs/desires/ideas/arguments), that they will bash it even before I completely unfold it and then criticize me. So, I developed many 'meandrean or zig-zag techniques' of expressing my needs/desires/ideas. I will explain more in post. }
Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style are placaters and are afraid to expose their true feelings. { I will have to add that I even mastered suppression of feelings to the point that I feel nothing in those moments. Example: let's say I have a sexual desire in the moment and my girlfriend lacks one and let's say that this happens few times in a row. I'm one of those types that would very rarely say: 'If you do not want it, at least help me with mine'. I would in most cases withdraw and feel literally nothing simply because if I said such sentence I would look like a sexual maniac or predator or similar in my OWN eyes and ALSO in PARTNER'S eyes. This suppression of emotions can lead to suppression of needs/desires where I do not even know, sometimes, what my needs are. } Instead, they play the role of the “good boy” or the “nice girl” because they feel that since playing this role won their parents’ “love,” it will win other people’s love as well. A key statement for this adaptive survival style is, “If I show you how I really feel, you won’t love me— you’ll leave me.”
In personal relationships, these individuals allow frustrations to build without addressing them until they reach a point where they can no longer tolerate the accumulated resentments. They usually have escape strategies that allow them to leave relationships without confrontation: they withdraw without explanation, or they make their partner miserable so that the partner rejects them. This rejection by the other allows them to achieve “freedom” without the guilt of saying no, while at the same time reaping the secondary benefit of being the “innocent” injured party.
{ 'Leaving the relationship without confrontation' and 'frustration building' happened in my first relationship and also in later one. We were kids, around 12-13. I remember that she jumped on every single detail that was not right in the moment for her. I continued to be who I was but never truly articulated my dissatisfaction about her behavior -> classic Autonomy survival style as i can see -> covert will and not changing because of other persons subjective demands BUT NO REAL, EXPRESSED dissatisfaction about behavior and thinking patterns of others -> Where all resentment goes? It gets locked inside you.

Effects of Autonomy survival type? Accumulation of negative energy, foggy recognition of your own desires/needs and foggy articulation of ideas, negative introspect when you want to articulate desires/needs, never being specific when people ask you 'What do you want?', never truly saying no directly, avoiding conflict and fear of confrontation etc. }


Externally oriented, they are extremely sensitive to what they perceive as others’ expectations of them and experience these expectations, in intimate relationships and work situations, as pressures to perform.

Parental pressures are internalized as high expectations of themselves. Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style are extremely judgmental of themselves. They are ruled by “shoulds” and strive endlessly to become who they think they “should” be.
The tendency to brood and ruminate is typical of this survival style. These individuals ruminate after personal encounters, berating themselves about whether they did or said the right thing, chastising themselves for any “mistakes” they feel they made in the interaction, wondering if they said the right thing or hurt the person’s feelings.
{ Especially the last remark. }

In the therapeutic process with individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style, it is important to keep in mind how paralyzed they feel as a result of their own internal contradictions. Not realizing how much pressure they put on themselves or how they constantly judge themselves, they experience their internal struggle as resulting from external circumstances. Growth takes place when they become aware that the pressures they experience are primarily the result of their own internal demands.
Thank you Altair for posting quotes.
I haven't read the book. I will as soon as possible.

I recently did JBP Big 5 test on _understandmyself.com and found out that my agreeableness is 72% with compassion 61% and politeness 76%. For me it's not a really good thing because it perfectly fits the picture of Autonomy survival style. I think that politeness being 76% is one of the major problems, because high politeness is avoiding conflict. (Yes you can continue to be YOU even if you are polite(covert will), as I did, but you still suffer consequences of resentment, because you do not express anger and dissatisfaction as much as you would like to and disagreeing is somehow shallow, more like you think what you want, i think what I want and we all go peacefully in our own directions....looking from third perspective that's reasonable right? But problem is when that direction is same as yours which happens a lot when interacting with parents or partner...will you succumb, reign or make a compromise? ) :huh:

Next thing on the list is compassion being 61%. That's so sweet right? Not really when in conjunction with high politeness. You put other people needs in front of yours. Especially partners needs (that's probably the way to earn love and bypass rejection) -> Being a 'nice guy' who can occasionally spill his long held resentment?

I must note here that I am not so much compassionate in emotional aspect as I am in problem solving aspect, so when I say I'm often a listening ear to someone I mean that I would never judge them, slice them in half of sentence, or bash them. If they are not right I try, again...'politely' to point where flaws are and how whole situation can go from unresolved to resolved. And why I do this so politely? Because I hate when someone bashes me, I feel hurt and not understood. Especially when they cut me before I even said all I had to say. Even if rejection doesn't happen, there is always a possibility in my mind. And because there is always a possibility in my mind I always use "meandrean or zig-zag techniques of expressing my needs/desires/ideas".

Ok, what are these "meandrean or zig-zag techniques of expressing needs/desires/ideas"? I think it's probably better to use examples.

1. I want to express idea to my partner and parents that I want to learn and that I will learn reiki soon. I have these thoughts that partner will look at me as I'm a crazy man if I engage in some weird treatment with hands and would say: 'Is that a sect/magic etc.?' and that parents would say: 'Stop entangling yourself with those unimportant things. Go study for your university exams. You will do all of those things when you graduate'. I must say that my girfriend, contradictory to my belief, was positive about reiki and my parents had no real opinion except above sentence and I stopped informing them about it (that's what I always do when disagree with someone...I just stop giving them information about anything we disagree about, like 'everything is fine, but...i'm not giving you more info') -> covert will and not showing disagreeing -> autonomy type.

When someone is disagreeable with me one meandrean technique I use is above one: 'everything is fine, but...i'm not giving you more info', even if I have to lie. Other is laughing used for mitigation of unpleasant situations and disagreeableness.
When someone doesn't reject what I'm expressing, depending of 'weirdness' of information I use other meandrean techniques as:






I remembered one thing while I was writing this post. When I read ISOTM i thought that my chief feature is self-importance because I'm really extrovert and sometimes talk to much. But I see that quite opposite is true.
 

Pashalis

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Balance said:
I recently did JBP Big 5 test on _understandmyself.com and found out that my agreeableness is 72% with compassion 61% and politeness 76%. For me it's not a really good thing because it perfectly fits the picture of Autonomy survival style. I think that politeness being 76% is one of the major problems, because high politeness is avoiding conflict. (Yes you can continue to be YOU even if you are polite(covert will), as I did, but you still suffer consequences of resentment, because you do not express anger and dissatisfaction as much as you would like to and disagreeing is somehow shallow, more like you think what you want, i think what I want and we all go peacefully in our own directions....looking from third perspective that's reasonable right? But problem is when that direction is same as yours which happens a lot when interacting with parents or partner...will you succumb, reign or make a compromise? ) :huh:

Next thing on the list is compassion being 61%. That's so sweet right? Not really when in conjunction with high politeness. You put other people needs in front of yours. Especially partners needs (that's probably the way to earn love and bypass rejection) -> Being a 'nice guy' who can occasionally spill his long held resentment?

I must note here that I am not so much compassionate in emotional aspect as I am in problem solving aspect, so when I say I'm often a listening ear to someone I mean that I would never judge them, slice them in half of sentence, or bash them. If they are not right I try, again...'politely' to point where flaws are and how whole situation can go from unresolved to resolved. And why I do this so politely? Because I hate when someone bashes me, I feel hurt and not understood. Especially when they cut me before I even said all I had to say. Even if rejection doesn't happen, there is always a possibility in my mind. And because there is always a possibility in my mind I always use "meandrean or zig-zag techniques of expressing my needs/desires/ideas".

Ok, what are these "meandrean or zig-zag techniques of expressing needs/desires/ideas"? I think it's probably better to use examples.

1. I want to express idea to my partner and parents that I want to learn and that I will learn reiki soon. I have these thoughts that partner will look at me as I'm a crazy man if I engage in some weird treatment with hands and would say: 'Is that a sect/magic etc.?' and that parents would say: 'Stop entangling yourself with those unimportant things. Go study for your university exams. You will do all of those things when you graduate'. I must say that my girfriend, contradictory to my belief, was positive about reiki and my parents had no real opinion except above sentence and I stopped informing them about it (that's what I always do when disagree with someone...I just stop giving them information about anything we disagree about, like 'everything is fine, but...i'm not giving you more info') -> covert will and not showing disagreeing -> autonomy type.

When someone is disagreeable with me one meandrean technique I use is above one: 'everything is fine, but...i'm not giving you more info', even if I have to lie. Other is laughing used for mitigation of unpleasant situations and disagreeableness.
When someone doesn't reject what I'm expressing, depending of 'weirdness' of information I use other meandrean techniques as:






I remembered one thing while I was writing this post. When I read ISOTM i thought that my chief feature is self-importance because I'm really extrovert and sometimes talk to much. But I see that quite opposite is true.
Did the the understandmyself.com test from Peterson recently as well. One reason I did it was to compare it with the results of test that is described in the book that Laura brought up in the "The Righteous Mind" thread with the title "The H Factor of Personality". The other reason is to understand myself better and where I'm at right now and which traits dominate and how to go about changing some of those or at least act differently on them.

I think one of the points Peterson is making, if I understood correctly, is that while it is true that there are those 5 traits that are pretty much hardwired that predict and show you how you are currently constituted and what you tend to do and think normally, that this doesn't neccecarly mean that you have to act on those traits (if some turn out to be not desirable in one aspect or the other for you and for others). I think he mentioned in one of his talks for example, that one should try, if one is overly extroverted let's say, to practise the opposide, or if one is overly introverted to practise the opposite there. To emulate some of the traits and reactions that do not come naturally. Practise seems to be a keypoint there.

So I think Peterson is somewhat describing work aspects there and so to say that "biology is not destiny" (to paraphrase what Samenow describes in his books). There is always a choice and it seems like it is up to us what we make out of the sets of tendencies the universe provided us with.

That aspect makes the Healing Developmental Trauma also quite valuable because you get to know yourself and the automatic reactions and habits you exhibit in the present and how to untangle it from the past, by working through it in the present. What it seems to come down to in all of those different approaches is to concentrate on the now, what is the current state of your being, thinking and behaviours, how you react and interact with others, what automatic reactions and actions in the present hider you from becoming who you would like to be etc.

The HDT book is another book that is pretty much in line with what Gurdjieff said about not concentrating on the past, and how that tendence to concentrate on the past, is most often quite contra productive and can lead to quite undesirable things in the work on oneself and/or healing a trauma.
 

Balance

The Force is Strong With This One
I didn't know that I accidentally posted my reply, bug perhaps or wrong button....This is the full post.
Sorry for repetition.

Altair said:
Autonomy

Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style have had to face the dilemma of choosing between themselves or their parents. To submit to their parents leaves them feeling invaded, controlled, and crushed. On the other hand, their loving feelings and the need to maintain the attachment relationship keep them from overtly challenging parents. Faced with the impossible choice of trying to maintain the integrity of the self while keeping the love of the parents leaves them in a no-win situation. These children adapt to this dilemma by overtly submitting to parental power while secretly holding out. { This is so damn true for me that I can only laugh now because it's soooo obvious ... } To do this, these children develop a powerful, though often covert, will.
{ Since by only reading these quotes Altair posted, I found that I resemble so much the Autonomy type...some scenes from childhood and adolescence came to my mind...but more on that down in the post. }

In adults who have developed this adaptive survival style, self-assertion and overt expressions of independence and autonomy are experienced as dangerous and to be avoided. The major fears that fuel this survival adaptation are the fears of being criticized, rejected, and abandoned. { I will have to add that there is also a fear of not being understood in the manner that other people won't be able to understand what I'm telling them(wants/needs/desires/ideas/arguments), that they will bash it even before I completely unfold it and then criticize me. So, I developed many 'meandrean or zig-zag techniques' of expressing my needs/desires/ideas. I will explain more in post. }
Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style are placaters and are afraid to expose their true feelings. { I will have to add that I even mastered suppression of feelings to the point that I feel nothing in those moments. Example: let's say I have a sexual desire in the moment and my girlfriend lacks one and let's say that this happens few times in a row. I'm one of those types that would very rarely say: 'If you do not want it, at least help me with mine'. I would in most cases withdraw and feel literally nothing simply because if I said such sentence I would look like a sexual maniac or predator or similar in my OWN eyes and ALSO in PARTNER'S eyes. This suppression of emotions can lead to suppression of needs/desires where I do not even know, sometimes, what my needs are. } Instead, they play the role of the “good boy” or the “nice girl” because they feel that since playing this role won their parents’ “love,” it will win other people’s love as well. A key statement for this adaptive survival style is, “If I show you how I really feel, you won’t love me— you’ll leave me.”
In personal relationships, these individuals allow frustrations to build without addressing them until they reach a point where they can no longer tolerate the accumulated resentments. They usually have escape strategies that allow them to leave relationships without confrontation: they withdraw without explanation, or they make their partner miserable so that the partner rejects them. This rejection by the other allows them to achieve “freedom” without the guilt of saying no, while at the same time reaping the secondary benefit of being the “innocent” injured party.
{ 'Leaving the relationship without confrontation' and 'frustration building' happened in my first relationship and also in later one. We were kids, around 12-13. I remember that she jumped on every single detail that was not right in the moment for her. I continued to be who I was but never truly articulated my dissatisfaction about her behavior -> classic Autonomy survival style as i can see -> covert will and not changing because of other persons subjective demands BUT NO REAL, EXPRESSED dissatisfaction about behavior and thinking patterns of others -> Where all resentment goes? It gets locked inside you.

Effects of Autonomy survival type? Accumulation of negative energy, foggy recognition of your own desires/needs and foggy articulation of ideas, negative introspect when you want to articulate desires/needs, never being specific when people ask you 'What do you want?', never truly saying no directly, avoiding conflict and fear of confrontation etc. }


Externally oriented, they are extremely sensitive to what they perceive as others’ expectations of them and experience these expectations, in intimate relationships and work situations, as pressures to perform.

Parental pressures are internalized as high expectations of themselves. Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style are extremely judgmental of themselves. They are ruled by “shoulds” and strive endlessly to become who they think they “should” be.
The tendency to brood and ruminate is typical of this survival style. These individuals ruminate after personal encounters, berating themselves about whether they did or said the right thing, chastising themselves for any “mistakes” they feel they made in the interaction, wondering if they said the right thing or hurt the person’s feelings.
{ Especially the last remark. }

In the therapeutic process with individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style, it is important to keep in mind how paralyzed they feel as a result of their own internal contradictions. Not realizing how much pressure they put on themselves or how they constantly judge themselves, they experience their internal struggle as resulting from external circumstances. Growth takes place when they become aware that the pressures they experience are primarily the result of their own internal demands.
Thank you Altair for posting quotes.
I haven't read the book. I will as soon as possible.

I recently did JBP Big 5 test on _understandmyself.com and found out that my agreeableness is 72% with compassion 61% and politeness 76%. For me it's not a really good thing because it perfectly fits the picture of Autonomy survival style. I think that politeness being 76% is one of the major problems, because high politeness is avoiding conflict. (Yes you can continue to be YOU even if you are polite(covert will), as I did, but you still suffer consequences of resentment, because you do not express anger and dissatisfaction as much as you would like to and disagreeing is somehow shallow, more like you think what you want, i think what I want and we all go peacefully in our own directions....looking from third perspective that's reasonable right? But problem is when that direction is same as yours which happens a lot when interacting with parents or partner...will you succumb, reign or make a compromise? ) :huh:

Next thing on the list is compassion being 61%. That's so sweet right? Not really when in conjunction with high politeness. You put other people needs in front of yours. Especially partners needs (that's probably the way to earn love and bypass rejection) -> Being a 'nice guy' who can occasionally spill his long held resentment?

I must note here that I am not so much compassionate in emotional aspect as I am in problem solving aspect, so when I say I'm often a listening ear to someone I mean that I would never judge them, slice them in half of sentence, or bash them. If they are not right I try, again...'politely' to point where flaws are and how whole situation can go from unresolved to resolved. And why I do this so politely? Because I hate when someone bashes me, I feel hurt and not understood. Especially when they cut me before I even said all I had to say. Even if rejection doesn't happen, there is always a possibility in my mind. And because there is always a possibility in my mind I always use "meandrean or zig-zag techniques of expressing my needs/desires/ideas".

Ok, what are these "meandrean or zig-zag techniques of expressing needs/desires/ideas"? I think it's probably better to use an example.

1. I want to express idea to my partner and parents that I want to learn and that I will learn reiki soon. I have these thoughts that partner will look at me as I'm a crazy man if I engage in some weird treatment with hands and would say: 'Is that a sect/magic etc.?' and that parents would say: 'Stop entangling yourself with those unimportant things. Go study for your university exams. You will do all of those things when you graduate'. I must say that my girfriend, contradictory to my belief, was positive about reiki and my parents had no real opinion except above sentence and I stopped informing them about it (that's what I always do when disagree with someone...I just stop giving them information about anything we disagree about, like 'everything is fine, but...i'm not giving you more info') -> covert will and not showing disagreeing -> autonomy type.


When someone is disagreeable from the begining with me, meandrean technique I use:
- 'everything is fine, but...i'm not giving you more info', even if I have to lie and continue to do what I want to do.
- Laughing and comedy used for mitigation of unpleasant situations and disagreeableness.

When someone doesn't reject what I'm expressing at beggining, depending of 'weirdness' of information I use other meandrean techniques as:
- Trying to prepare the playground for expressing the essence simply because I'm not confident enough to 'spit it out loud' because I think that people will start attacking the moment I say it. This actually happened before, even in childhood, and that's why I have this 'system of defense'. I often feel like a blind men touching the ground with the stick to see if he can express himself. Using the good example of reiki above, let's demonstrate this:

Without preparing the playground: - "I'm going to learn Reiki. It's an interesting technique of energetic healing with your palms. I'm going to try it." (Followed by confident discussion about reiki with interlocutor)

With preparing the playground: - "I found one interesting healing technique. It's developed one hundred years ago in Japan. { Tradition } Today it's accepted by medical associations around the world as a valid treatment technique. { Validation by authority } I don't know if it works but many people report it does. { Personal doubt used to mitigate rejection and to dismiss identification of myself with object/theme I speak about in interlocutor eyes. Also used to create the picture that I know what I'm doing and that I'm vigilant and not being 'possessed' by certain idea' or being 'suggestible' } It can alleviates pain, help people with emotional problems etc. { Positive sides of what I'm speaking about } I probably think that I should try it { essence/intent }, just to see if it really works or if is a hoax. { More personal doubt just to mitigate the POSSIBLE impact of essence/intent }"

Truth is that because of this 'preparing of playground' I often foggy my essence/intent and people fail to understand what I wanted to say and what I really want. I fail in expressing it and feel more resentment as a consequence.

Actually I want to think with the hammer, which I often but not always do. BUT I also want to say it out loud while 'standing straight with my shoulders back' and be argumentative why I took certain stance.

But...let's not be so grim. I started working on my agreeableness/politeness and 'standing straight with my shoulders back',

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*I remembered one thing while I was writing this post. When I read ISOTM I thought that my chief feature is self-importance because I'm really extrovert and sometimes talk to much and I end up many times in center of attention. But I see that no overt expression of emotions/needs/ideas because of fear of rejection and misunderstanding is my chief feature, hence agreeableness and politeness...

Signature: Nice Guy

P.S. As my memory serves me, I think that Dr. Stjernval, who was in Gurdjieff crew, had the same problem of agreeableness and that G gave him the task lasting 30min to 1 hour every day to be a real -kunta kintay- to anyone who approached him. Stranger or friend, doesn't matter. (It's from 'Our life with Mr. Gurdjieff ' -> de Hartmanns)
I asked myself if I would be able to do that exercise and found out that I have a really strong urge to settle all things right and to resolve situation and to look like a decent person in other peoples eyes. If not to look like a decent person in others eyes, at least to bypass open conflict or if that's not possible then to minimize it as much as possible.
 

Balance

The Force is Strong With This One
Pashalis said:
Did the the understandmyself.com test from Peterson recently as well. One reason I did it was to compare it with the results of test that is described in the book that Laura brought up in the "The Righteous Mind" thread with the title "The H Factor of Personality". The other reason is to understand myself better and where I'm at right now and which traits dominate and how to go about changing some of those or at least act differently on them.

I think one of the points Peterson is making, if I understood correctly, is that while it is true that there are those 5 traits that are pretty much hardwired that predict and show you how you are currently constituted and what you tend to do and think normally, that this doesn't neccecarly mean that you have to act on those traits (if some turn out to be not desirable in one aspect or the other for you and for others). I think he mentioned in one of his talks for example, that one should try, if one is overly extroverted let's say, to practise the opposide, or if one is overly introverted to practise the opposite there. To emulate some of the traits and reactions that do not come naturally. Practise seems to be a keypoint there.

So I think Peterson is somewhat describing work aspects there and so to say that "biology is not destiny" (to paraphrase what Samenow describes in his books). There is always a choice and it seems like it is up to us what we make out of the sets of tendencies the universe provided us with.

That aspect makes the Healing Developmental Trauma also quite valuable because you get to know yourself and the automatic reactions and habits you exhibit in the present and how to untangle it from the past, by working through it in the present. What it seems to come down to in all of those different approaches is to concentrate on the now, what is the current state of your being, thinking and behaviours, how you react and interact with others, what automatic reactions and actions in the present hider you from becoming who you would like to be etc.

The HDT book is another book that is pretty much in line with what Gurdjieff said about not concentrating on the past, and how that tendence to concentrate on the past, is most often quite contra productive and can lead to quite undesirable things in the work on oneself and/or healing a trauma.
Thanks for the reply Pashalis. Indeed big 5 is interesting as current indicator of who you are in the moment and I always had the opinion that we can change and that biology is just a starting point (considering epigenetics and neuroplasticity). If criminal mind with conscious effort can lessen the grip of ego, than what to say...

With ISOTM I learned and installed conscious observer. With IDCM, ISOTM and neuroplasticity I learned that I can change my way of thinking thus behavior and change "those pesky big 5 percentages" with conscious effort. With just few quotes from HDT and Petersons big five test, I finally identified my survival/defense mechanisms and had aha moment. (I will read HDT as soon as I can). So the knowledge is there. Hardcore Doing must be implemented now in order to grow in Being.

Thanks god I learned to stop being in the past and shifted myself to the 'right hemisphere' aka in the present. But I still hate when even with conscious observer, with knowledge I have about changing and conscious effort, I succumb to automatic responses in the now. Be or not to be? It's really sad because one part of me hesitates under pressure while other knows what to do, but I still respond in same automatic manner (not always anymore, but it happens it happened in some important situations and I hate it).

But as I said, it's less grimmer than before because I started articulating myself more openly in the last month. Will continue to do that as much as I can.
 

Puma1974

Jedi
Laura said:
Obviously, reading the whole book is much better than an article or watching a video as far as I have seen.

I will also warn you that reading this book might be a little bit traumatic as you recognize elements of yourself and others around you and finally understand why you - or they - act a certain way under certain circumstances. It can sure help with the development of Empathy and conscience to understand these things.

I swear, I wish I could go back and do my children over again - so much I just didn't know. Well, heck, so much nobody knew. It was only in 1988 that a study was done that determined that babies feel pain!!! Geezus! I knew they did without a study!!
I was thinking, the C´s have said that there is no time. They are a future version of you and you are now a future version of your past.

So the C´s said: "Everyone in your group should read these books to begin the processes necessary to achieve reception capacity. Those who have been blocked up to the present will find unlocking there if they can receive. " Now, consider that "time" is simultaneous, that there is a "I" in the past that needs help and YOU are in the now, in the PRESENT and that you ARE a version of YOUR future. You are the Future of your past Self. So you start reading this, to assimilate it ... can this help you in the past? I think so...You are helping yourself.

Well I think I'm rambling... this is very interesting.
 

Puma1974

Jedi
Intergenerational trauma and Mexicans

"The earlier the trauma, the more global its impact on physiology and psychology, on the sense of identity and worldview. Current studies in developmental traumatology show that the cumulative effects of chronic early neglect and abuse negatively influence brain development and adversely affect the nervous system, the endocrine system and memory..."


I believe that there is no people more disconnected and traumatized than the people of Mexico, a people born of rape, of conquest. The writer Octavio Paz wrote in El laberinto de la soledad that riddled by his past, the Mexican is incapable of being congruent with what he does and what he feels. According to him, since the Aztec conquest in the hands of the Spaniards, Mexicans have tried to adopt a foreign identity while finding their own. The Mexican is a solitary being, does not belong here or there; that is part of their strangeness in which we embrace the foreigner, we presume our cultural heritage and we invite with a marked smile to those who look with strangeness at our land, but at the same time the Mexican is hermetic, silent, distrustful of his peers and his compatriots.

The Conquest, Independence and the Revolution are key moments in the history of the Mexican, as all marked and altered psychologically.

"Our history as an independent nation would also contribute to perpetuate and make this servile psychology more clear, since we have not succeeded in suppressing popular misery or exasperating social differences, despite a century and a half of constitutional struggles and experiences. The use of violence as a dialectical resource, the abuses of authority by the powerful - a service that has not yet disappeared - and finally the skepticism and resignation of the people, now more visible than ever due to successive post-revolutionary disappointments, would complete this historical explanation ". said Paz. We are the sons of the chingada, the "son of a bitch." Our mothers were raped.

It is what we are, what we were and what we will be, the children of the shit abandoned by the mother or exiled from their womb by their own will. Our solitude only serves to find us, but the way to do it is painful, confusing and impossible. The Mexican is a son of the shit and a "chingón" at the same time. Always mutable, he surprises himself as he surprises the foreigner. Only Mexicans will decide the moment of change in which we will overcome a past marked by historical violation and stop being children of the chingada.


:shock:
 

Konstantin

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Finally, I finished the book and all I can say is that it is a great book.
While reading about all the survival styles and NARM techniques described I found myself in some of those survival styles. Not particularly in one of them but it is mixed, Found a few characteristics from almost all survival styles.
I understand a lot of “faults” that I noticed in me from a long time ago and now it all has a sense. All this “faults” that I have start to have a reason why they exist and offers a solution how they can be solved by the NARM techniques. Like feeling shame in making new connections, friendships, relationships, feeling depressed and cant really articulate what I really feel, difficulties in expressing emotions etc.

While reading, sometimes a sudden memory will appear from my past, mostly from my childhood. While I was reading some description or example of some of the survival styles a memory would pop up in my mind and I could recognize the shame-based identification or pride counter identification in myself. Sometimes while reading a would recognize somebody from my family or a friend.

It is so hard when I understand some things, but also so liberating to know that I know what it is, that I am aware of it. It is liberating to know the reason.

While finishing the book I remembered one accident while I was a kid.

I was sick and I had a fever I and was at home. I was watching a TV and after that, my mother told me that she must give me another antibiotic shot.
I was terrified of needles and injections. My mother was a nurse and as soon as I was sick she was giving me injections shots, of course, she would take me to a doctor first and I was receiving injections at home later instead to go 2 or 3 times each day to the hospital.
I am still afraid of injections and I think that last one I took was maybe 20 years ago.

I would run through the home to hide but she and my dad will grab me and while I was screaming and kicking she would give me the injection. I remember that I could not calm down from crying after that for a long time. Ans it was the same after each shot. Not just then, but every time I had to get a shot.

That particular day the same situation was preparing and in all that hiding and panicking my mother tried to catch me and she tried to slap me on my face, but I moved and she hit my nose with her ring. In a second I felt that blood is coming from my nose. I went to the bathroom and the blood was coming from my nose. I was so upset and I remember I could not stop crying and shaking. After that, she would act like she was angry at me because I was making such a stress at her, while in reality, she made all that. :(


And this is just one event that pop in my mind while reading the book. I mentioned it here because I had a very, very strong reaction on this memory. It is not that I remembered it now. I was aware of it the whole time but somehow it appeared unconsciously in my memory while reading and it was followed by a strong emotion, and I tried not to be submerged in the feelings and to look at all this from some perspective, from the present moment as it is described in the book.
I felt so sad, and a felt like lot of heat is starting to spread from my body core, from my area in the plexus. It lasted for a minute and then I tried to get back on the reading again.

This is very helpful book, written in a very clean and understandable language and at the same time very hard for reading because it is giving you a tolls and context in which you can understand and explain something that is going inside you. Something that you knew forever that it is not right but could not articulate it in the right context. This book is helping in that direction.

It is an eye-opening book for me.

I will continue with the rest of the recomended books.
 

PERLOU

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Merci KONSTANTIN pour avoir exprimé si clairement ce que je ressens également surtout concernant les piqûres qui me terrorisent toujours même les prise de sang...
Je suis presque à la fin du livre et oui c'est un grand livre qui explique très bien le pourquoi et le comment... Je pense que le relirai...
Oui, il fait remonter des souvenirs et des similitudes avec les personnages de notre vie...

Thank you KONSTANTIN for having expressed so clearly what I also feel especially concerning the injections which always terrorize me even the blood tests...
I'm almost at the end of the book and yes, it's a great book that explains very well why and how... I think I'll read it again...
Yes, it brings back memories and similarities with the characters of our life...
 

Wodnik

Jedi
Currently I'm reading the book and in a mean time I was doing research where I can find a local practitioner using NARM, and I got really lucky. She is a Japanese living in Sydney .



https://www.naturaltraumahealing.com/teachers
 

Nico

Jedi Master
A really great thanks to you Laura and others for having discovered and shared this book.
I also have memories and more capability to integrate feelings I've cut down from the past (and are still cluttering my projection of the future, and distorting my perceptions of the now).
I will not elaborate on "techniques" I use because everyone discover their own way of exploring, and it's really freeing to feel again this curiosity-oriented view of life. But only to note that when I practice the guitare, my professor stressed the importance to be fully relax and going slowly, leading with the left hand (I'm right handed) bring also more capacity to regulates the nervous system.
Considering the practice, I find myself locked when I separate the top-down and bottum-up approach (usually because of a fear or assumption of what may happen), it kind of disrupt the proper realignement of the flow within the body, I don't allow the bottum-up approach to take the lead when it's necessary, and force to much a change from the top-down, I guess it's the criminal mind's feedback loop which takes place. One night I felt a reorganizing "beam of electron" piercing through the body, quickly vanished when I realized what was happening... yeah what will happen to ME when this negative emotional core, that gives me a lot of trouble, will be blown apart ? I guess I'll have to ground myself more.
I know that will be a time when I'll/we'll have to face a big flare up of emotions, and thanks to the self-soothing and organizing principles we prepare slowly to face it.
I also have a concerned when one practice these methods alone without direct support and face a re-traumatizing dysregulation, for example the case of Carla in the book which began to feel cold when reliving a preverbal abandonment event, she is directly supported and touched by a friend of her. There might have some limitations when practice alone about full reintegration of dysregulation, I personally don't stay "cold" too long when it happens, helping me with some positive resources, but it has certainly not the effect of a human being there. Maybe that's a part of why I seek for an intimate relationship now.
Much love and courage to you all in these times of readjustements.
 
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