Hyperdimensional Politics

Balance

The Force is Strong With This One
istina said:
Balance said:
I recently started reading Political Ponerology (yeah...only recently :-[...it was hard for me to read it on English and I couldn't find it on Serbian...but after some digging I found a combination of Croatian/Serbian translation for free on one local forum, yeey :D).

Balance, Political ponerology has been translated into Serbian:

https://www.knjizara.com/Politicka-ponerologija-Andzej-M-Lobacevski-142640

Thank you istina for giving me the link. I was really surprised when I saw that Belgrade Faculty of law is the publisher. I bought Rhetorics from Sima Avramovic more than half a year ago also on Faculty of law, and I must say that it's an interesting book especially the part where he writes how ideological slogans/phrases, dull political talk or energetic 'they are enemy, we are good' speeches are utilized buy Gebbels type politicians(...and all other actually).
Also Sima provided a table about socialist-communistic speech, not a small one, with three columns in which parts of the sentence are written. Whichever the row from first, second or third column(respectively) you pick you get a sentence 'full of meaning' - it looks as it has, but it's phony. Real ideological/dull phony. I tried most combinations and after few moments I started laughing how apsurd pathocratic language is.

I think that this table can be applied in every speech/text we see today in 'liberal' media. 'They are opressing me'/'I have no right's' etc. - same phrases over and over.

Anyway, thank you for the info, I'm really happy that we have the translated PP in Serbia :D

[quote author=Laura]

Wilhelm II, or William II, (Friedrich Wilhelm Viktor Albert; 27 January 1859 – 4 June 1941) was the last German Emperor (Kaiser) and King of Prussia, ruling the German Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia from 15 June 1888 to 9 November 1918. He was the eldest grandchild of the British Queen Victoria and related to many monarchs and princes of Europe.

Acceding to the throne in 1888, he dismissed the Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, in 1890 and launched Germany on a bellicose "New Course" in foreign affairs that culminated in his support for Austria-Hungary in the crisis of July 1914 that led in a matter of days to the First World War. Bombastic and impetuous, he sometimes made tactless pronouncements on sensitive topics without consulting his ministers, culminating in a disastrous Daily Telegraph interview in 1908 that cost him most of his influence.[1] His leading generals, Paul von Hindenburg and Erich Ludendorff, dictated policy during the First World War with little regard for the civilian government. An ineffective war-time leader, he lost the support of the army, abdicated in November 1918, and fled to exile in the Netherlands.

The highlighted part in the clip from the article struck me as quite descriptive of Trump, at least from the point of view of the average person looking at him from a distance. He's definitely bombastic and impetuous and tactless. But he is certainly not Hitler. In fact, I just finished reading Waite's book on Hitler "The Psychopathic God", and boy, was that a tour de force! Hitler has never been laid out so completely, including the necessary background of social/historical conditions.

So, that fits in pretty well with Ponerological pattern only the timing is a bit uncertain.

Waite thought that Hitler had borderline personality, but after reading the details, documented meticulously and chillingly, I think he was a schizoid psychopath, though there could be crossover of other things there. I highly recommend Waite's book. Best book on Hitler I ever read; even tops Schramm.[/quote]

I got goosebumps when read bold part...totally forgot about Trump. I had no time to continue reading, but Lobacewski said that he will elaborate on thesis that characteropathy preced real pathocrathic reign. If Trump has no real/hidden agenda of his or something similar then this is history repeating...
 

Laura

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Balance said:
[quote author=Laura]

Wilhelm II, or William II, (Friedrich Wilhelm Viktor Albert; 27 January 1859 – 4 June 1941) was the last German Emperor (Kaiser) and King of Prussia, ruling the German Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia from 15 June 1888 to 9 November 1918. He was the eldest grandchild of the British Queen Victoria and related to many monarchs and princes of Europe.

Acceding to the throne in 1888, he dismissed the Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, in 1890 and launched Germany on a bellicose "New Course" in foreign affairs that culminated in his support for Austria-Hungary in the crisis of July 1914 that led in a matter of days to the First World War. Bombastic and impetuous, he sometimes made tactless pronouncements on sensitive topics without consulting his ministers, culminating in a disastrous Daily Telegraph interview in 1908 that cost him most of his influence.[1] His leading generals, Paul von Hindenburg and Erich Ludendorff, dictated policy during the First World War with little regard for the civilian government. An ineffective war-time leader, he lost the support of the army, abdicated in November 1918, and fled to exile in the Netherlands.

The highlighted part in the clip from the article struck me as quite descriptive of Trump, at least from the point of view of the average person looking at him from a distance. He's definitely bombastic and impetuous and tactless. But he is certainly not Hitler. In fact, I just finished reading Waite's book on Hitler "The Psychopathic God", and boy, was that a tour de force! Hitler has never been laid out so completely, including the necessary background of social/historical conditions.

So, that fits in pretty well with Ponerological pattern only the timing is a bit uncertain.

Waite thought that Hitler had borderline personality, but after reading the details, documented meticulously and chillingly, I think he was a schizoid psychopath, though there could be crossover of other things there. I highly recommend Waite's book. Best book on Hitler I ever read; even tops Schramm.

I got goosebumps when read bold part...totally forgot about Trump. I had no time to continue reading, but Lobacewski said that he will elaborate on thesis that characteropathy preced real pathocrathic reign. If Trump has no real/hidden agenda of his or something similar then this is history repeating...
[/quote]

Yeah, it gave me a frisson too. What was even creepier was that you wrote your post as I was finishing up the Hitler book and he had devoted a lot of attention to the crazy times after WW I, Weimar Republic, etc, and it sure did sound like the US right now!!!

I don't think Trump has a hidden agenda, nor do I think that the Deep State peeps wanted him in. It IS possible that the 4 D STS peeps wanted him in order to create the necessary chaos and they are all being manipulated.

In any event, that's just another piece of the puzzle that sort went right into place!!!
 

luc

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I've been thinking about the plans of the "hyperdimensional masters" after following the story of Lindsay Shepherd, a student who was summoned to what can only be called a thought police tribunal by her postmodern professors for showing a TV debate featuring Jordan Peterson. You can read about it here, fascinating and chilling story: _http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/heres-the-full-recording-of-wilfrid-laurier-reprimanding-lindsay-shepherd-for-showing-a-jordan-peterson-video

It really made my blood boil and so I followed the story very closely. What is positive about it is the epic backlash the university got all over the news (even Vice magazine wrote a reasonable article!) and all over social media. So many very insightful and almost always critical comments on facebook and twitter, including lots of alumni who withdrew their donations etc. etc. Many of the comments are clearly inspired by Jordan Peterson's thinking, and in a good way - people across the spectrum have had enough with the postmodern PC nonsense it seems, understand what's happening, and for the most part articulate it clearly and intelligently.

Notice that all this is a direct consequence of Jordan Peterson dedicating his life to the study of evil and then being willing to sacrifice his career for the truth. And then Lindsay comes along and puts her university career on the line for what she thinks is right, and has the wit to record the whole incident. And this makes the whole Orwellian nightmare so abundantly clear that even the MSM and propaganda outlets like Vice (that otherwise pushes the gender nonsense 24/7) can't help but take a strong stance against the "transphobia" and safe-space lunacy. They simply have no choice in the face of three male bullies in positions of power who make a female student cry.

Maybe the hyperdimensional overlords didn't see Jordan coming. They didn't see Lindsay coming. Because in their wishful thinking they can't understand the concept of sacrifice for the greater good, the power of a single human soul to change reality. And maybe they didn't see Trump coming either, which also plays into all this.

I mean, in a sense, everything seems to culminate at this point in time, and it looks like a grand plan indeed, with the "trans" and gender issue being a major part of the puzzle (?). You have the Frankfurt school and the postmodernist philosophers, who are a consequence of Hitler, who was a consequence of a whole lot of other historical developments and so on. Everything leads to the present and creates the perfect environment for the Orwellian thought police we are witnessing now. It's as if the whole transgender/postmodern/gender thing is a puzzle piece that fits right into our reality as if our reality was specifically designed for it. And bang, here we are, gender/PC insanity spreading like mad seemingly out of nowhere, with a whole cast of "high priests" already in place in the form of brainwashed postmodern academia and their comrades in politics, HR departments and the media.

But maybe not everything has gone according to plan. Imagine a reality with Hillary as president, without Jordan Peterson, without Lindsay Shepherd and so on - what a horror show! And maybe this was what was supposed to happen, but it didn't manifest.

So if we assume (and it's a huge IF) that maybe, just maybe this particular battle about the Orwellian thought police is won by the reality-based community, what are the implications?

Which brings me to the point of this post: the Cs said

Session 7 January 1997 said:
A: The forces at work here are far too clever to be accurately anticipated so easily. You never know what twists and turns will follow, and they are aware of prophetic and philosophical patternings and usually shift course to fool and discourage those who believe in fixed futures.

So IF humanity, or at least part of it, manages to stop the "gender dystopia" reality from manifesting, what new twists and turns will follow? Or is all of this part of the grand plan anyway and we are fooling ourselves if we think we can win any battle? Be that as it may, I think we all need to be hyper-vigilant right now and stay aware as best we can, and see as clearly as we can. If the hyperdimensional overlords are so clever, they will push the next crazy thing on us before we realize what's going on, and whatever it is, each of us could easily fall for it. It seems to me we are really in the final stages, everything is accelerating, things are moving and shifting like mad.

And this makes it extra important for each of us to Work on our flaws, push against our programming, and make the necessary sacrifices. Because that's our greatest weapon: to get out of our comfort zone, just because it's the right thing to do, and to sacrifice our comfort for the greater good. It's in our hands right now to decide the faith of this world, or as Jordan Peterson would say, it's no joke.

Fwiw
 
Ruth said:
mariowil7 said:
A FB friend posted this video with its respective comments, that in some way or another reflect the bolded part that Laura just wrote in the post above...:


From Shadow into Light. “No tree, it is said, can grow to heaven unless its roots reach down to hell.” -C.G. Jung
.
Embark on a visionary journey through the fragmented unconscious of the West, and with courage face the Shadow.

The depth of what writer, producer, and director — Lubomir Arsov — expresses is incredibly profound and explores our world in such a way that it gives me chills.
.
What I value is not just his ability to expose the insanity of modern society — and this inhumane system — but his awareness that there is a dark insidious presence controlling things in the background.

_https://youtu.be/j800SVeiS5I

https://youtu.be/j800SVeiS5I

Excellent YouTube vid and so appropriate to our current reality. I also like Jung's wisdom too. I think being able to balance out the negative and the positive influences enables a person to make choices in order to navigate life better. It is very dangerous practice to ignore bad or evil things and pretend that they just 'aren't there'. This is just asking for trouble.

Indeed RUTH an excellent video portraying the actual situation...

But what struck to me more was this part of the video at 9:00min. when there appear to be 4D STS beings (seems to me) making some sort of MOSAIC viewing of all events...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j800SVeiS5I&feature=youtu.be

It struck my spine in light of the following comments made by the Cs, Laura and others in this thread and others as follow...:

From: Session 14 July 1996
Q: (L) Let's boil it down. Was Hitler's agenda a practice run for a future scenario?

A: Close. Was a "testing" of the will.

Q: (L) Whose will was being tested?

A: Yours.

Q: (L) Me specifically, or the planet?

A: Latter.

Q: (L) In terms of this scenario, is there some lesson that we can learn about what may or may not occur through this book I have mentioned?

A: Maybe, but suggest you learn to blend mosaic consciousness.

Q: (L) What is mosaic consciousness?

A: Thinking in internally spherical terms, rather than using linear "point blank" approach. The whole picture is seen by seeing the whole scene.


Q: (L) Well, I guess that is why I get into so many thought patterns...

A: Picture yourself as being at the center of a mosaic.


Q: (L) Okay, I know what you are saying, but I just don't think that there is any way I can DO this!

A: Yes you can!

Q: (L) Okay. Okay. This whole situation, this Polish connection, this German connection, the American and alien things, the soldier/Nephilim thing, these are all manifestations of a Realm Border Crossing, am I correct?

A: Close.

from: Laura on November 14, 2017, 08:31:31 AM

"Mosaic Consciousness" will make a lot more sense once you have read Collingwood's "Idea of History" and "Speculum Mentis".

And the Cs did not talk about the slide projector at 5th density. It is mentioned in 17 June 95 session first, with no specific reference to 5 D and, again, if you have made it through the recent reading recommendations, all will be clear! Again, in 14 March 98 session and referred to effects in real life.

Posted by: luc « on: Today at 09:26:13 PM »
[...]
Which brings me to the point of this post: the Cs said

Quote from: Session 7 January 1997

A: The forces at work here are far too clever to be accurately anticipated so easily. You never know what twists and turns will follow, and they are aware of prophetic and philosophical patternings and usually shift course to fool and discourage those who believe in fixed futures.

So IF humanity, or at least part of it, manages to stop the "gender dystopia" reality from manifesting, what new twists and turns will follow? Or is all of this part of the grand plan anyway and we are fooling ourselves if we think we can win any battle? Be that as it may, I think we all need to be hyper-vigilant right now and stay aware as best we can, and see as clearly as we can. If the hyper-dimensional overlords are so clever, they will push the next crazy thing on us before we realize what's going on, and whatever it is, each of us could easily fall for it. It seems to me we are really in the final stages, everything is accelerating, things are moving and shifting like mad.

And this makes it extra important for each of us to Work on our flaws, push against our programming, and make the necessary sacrifices. Because that's our greatest weapon: to get out of our comfort zone, just because it's the right thing to do, and to sacrifice our comfort for the greater good. It's in our hands right now to decide the faith of this world, or as Jordan Peterson would say, it's no joke.

Fwiw

So the concept of thinking in mosaic consciousness at least let me think/ask to myself the following question: are the 4D STS forces using that concept too...? (it is the way of 4D...?)

And all that came to my mind in the moment I saw that part of that short film, and I asked to myself, How this video director guy managed to realize that?; amazing...

So indeed the forces at play are very clever and it demands of us to try to be as clever as we can, and Networking in the forum with collinear minded peoples is part of the puzzle... :cool2: :cool2: :cool2:
 

Hello H2O

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So the concept of thinking in mosaic consciousness at least let me think/ask to myself the following question: are the 4D STS forces using that concept too...? (it is the way of 4D...?)

And all that came to my mind in the moment I saw that part of that short film, and I asked to myself, How this video director guy managed to realize that?; amazing...

So indeed the forces at play are very clever and it demands of us to try to be as clever as we can, and Networking in the forum with collinear minded peoples is part of the puzzle... :cool2: :cool2: :cool2:

When I think of mosaic consciousness, I think it refers to seeing the big picture, (as best we can in 3D) and that everything is connected. So rather than seeing things in linear fashion, that is seeing a series of events, not connected to other events, you are seeing, you could say, the dots, that are all connected.

To your question, are 4D STS using that concept, I would say yes, including 4D STO as well. They are able to see the past, and the present, as well as the future. (Possible futures, according to probability vectors we are told).

So yes, it would appear to be the way of 4D. That we are being told to think in terms of 'mosaic consciousness', along with networking, which is also a 4D concept in interesting. IMO
 

BHelmet

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Hmm... Mosaic consciousness... mosaics are flat... maybe Disco Ball Consciousness is more like it!
 

goyacobol

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H2O said:
So the concept of thinking in mosaic consciousness at least let me think/ask to myself the following question: are the 4D STS forces using that concept too...? (it is the way of 4D...?)

And all that came to my mind in the moment I saw that part of that short film, and I asked to myself, How this video director guy managed to realize that?; amazing...

So indeed the forces at play are very clever and it demands of us to try to be as clever as we can, and Networking in the forum with collinear minded peoples is part of the puzzle... :cool2: :cool2: :cool2:

When I think of mosaic consciousness, I think it refers to seeing the big picture, (as best we can in 3D) and that everything is connected. So rather than seeing things in linear fashion, that is seeing a series of events, not connected to other events, you are seeing, you could say, the dots, that are all connected.

To your question, are 4D STS using that concept, I would say yes, including 4D STO as well. They are able to see the past, and the present, as well as the future. (Possible futures, according to probability vectors we are told).

So yes, it would appear to be the way of 4D. That we are being told to think in terms of 'mosaic consciousness', along with networking, which is also a 4D concept in interesting. IMO

I am not sure about 4D STS networking as such since it seems to be more hierarchical, compartmentalized and manipulative/controling in nature but the Cs do say something about 4D STO networking.

Session 17 December 1994
Q: (L) How do we find a horticulturist? Network?
A: Always "Network". Networking is 4th Density STO concept seeping into 3rd density with upcoming realm border crossing.
Q: (DM) Networking is the way to get things done from 3rd level into 4th level?

A: Coming from 4th level into 3rd because of influence of wave.
Q: (DM) So, each of us has a skill that we develop and help each other. (L) We are all part of a body.
A: This is the way lives in STO! DM on board, V__ write. V__ not to feel bad, will return. Please be patient. Hello, DM.

I don't see any reason to think 4D STO have any less capabilities than 4D STS when it comes to networking.
 

BHelmet

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goyacobol said:
BHelmet said:
Hmm... Mosaic consciousness... mosaics are flat... maybe Disco Ball Consciousness is more like it!

Well we do have members all over the globe...

While, to some greater or lesser extent, comic relief in times of great stress is one of my missions in life - I was also at least half serious:

Spherical thinking... (and not so linear) was also mentioned in this thread

Maybe spheres within spheres, or nested disco balls is even better.

Keeping with the Russian theme:

Babushka Disco Balls!
 

goyacobol

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BHelmet said:
goyacobol said:
BHelmet said:
Hmm... Mosaic consciousness... mosaics are flat... maybe Disco Ball Consciousness is more like it!

Well we do have members all over the globe...

While, to some greater or lesser extent, comic relief in times of great stress is one of my missions in life - I was also at least half serious:

Spherical thinking... (and not so linear) was also mentioned in this thread

Maybe spheres within spheres, or nested disco balls is even better.

Keeping with the Russian theme:

Babushka Disco Balls!

Seriously, I agree that the stress is not over by any means and your remark has deeper meaning than my puny attempt at humor. I just saw this "disco ball" and it reminded me of the "disco" era of the 70s.

Sorry, for the premature stress relief attempt. But now I'm thinking of those Babushka Disco Balls! :P

Anyway, I have seen your serious side as well and I feel we can soon get back to dealing with what we know really is "The terror of the situation". It's so negative sometimes it feels like you could go insane or already are.

The sphere is mentioned several times by the Cs related to more than one concept but your idea of that "Disco ball" kind of seems like a good analogy to the "mosaic consciousness". If we individually increase our consciousness and then "network" with what we "see" maybe we could complete a circuit or circuits that would light up a collective awareness? It made me think. Thanks.
 

SlipNet

Dagobah Resident
Very intensive discussion, it's a pleasure to read such constructive thinking.

As a sufferer of the "operators and things" type of mental distress, I feel I may have something to offer experientially on the topic of our existence essentially being hacked by entities of superior physical prowess and intelligence. Not to mention that they are also essential psychopaths, they know exactly what they are doing.

By not doing the work to know and cleanse one's lower self, you allow your strings to be pulled and also you can leave yourself psychically open to predation by dark critters in the ether, so to speak. Not a pretty scenario, and it really makes you wonder how our randy double-crossing pathologicals in power are faring on this level. They could be individually carrying some nasty bastards, you never know.

I agree that the protocols acts as a kind of psychopathic game theory template, plus when you factor in our ludicrously bodycentric and vacuous mainstream media faux culture, the situation is very bleak.

Richard Dolan these days thinks a leak-induced partial fascist disclosure seems most likely of his clung to theories, and I am of the opinion that our childish egotistical refusal as a society to seriously listen to the factual information on offer on the subject is a fatal flaw, because it ties in then with answering all paranormal questions, and I consider this to be one of our chief tasks in this age as thinkers. We have all the past at our disposal, plus the great efforts of those in the present. The potential is there nowadays to map the paranormal landscape, a tremendous undertaking for the one who takes it up, just a small book of abiding facts.

I am a realist and consider this scenario plausible but exceedingly unlikely. Far more likely cold weather, space rocks and opportunistic psychopaths launching strikes at long hungered-for enemies.

A big suffering drain to 4d STS in a society exploding in a non-intellectual way. Little spiritual growth either.

There's a higher hand at play here to be sure, and it's a hand that likes to play risk. Which makes for a wildcard opponent.

I've been getting up to speed on the latest ideas about Gurdjieff, and his peculiar genius for seeing the machinations of people, "human nature" in action. I never payed any attention to his cosmological ideas and tables; actually I thought I was too thick to get that stuff, but his work on psychology still remains a great embryo for a future growth program. We know more of course, and trans-dimensional stalking is as real as chips and peas to many of us here as an idea. We simply have to understand ourselves at a top level of awareness, lest the emotions and the lower self get out of hand. The old quandry of integrating the shadow is here, and it's a pressing concern as a global phenomenon.

Meanwhile, International Zionism struts about the world like it's the second coming of the anti-christ.....and whether it is a case of blackmail, security companies and dense secret level task forces, the chaotic events still carry an overall pattern, and it's becoming less of a challenge to see where the future conflicts are being stoked.

Loads to think about wondering about the whole set of facets this subject has opened up in me, sorry if I drifted off topic.
 

Gaby

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luc said:
Session 7 January 1997 said:
A: The forces at work here are far too clever to be accurately anticipated so easily. You never know what twists and turns will follow, and they are aware of prophetic and philosophical patternings and usually shift course to fool and discourage those who believe in fixed futures.

So IF humanity, or at least part of it, manages to stop the "gender dystopia" reality from manifesting, what new twists and turns will follow?

The agenda feels like something deliberate and as if they are pushing the "fastforward" button.

If Nazi Germany was just a "trial run", all this "gender dystopia", racial conflicts and postmodernism "rights" could seriously backfire or be used as an excuse to implement "a master race" and/or get rid of all the undesirables. Or maybe it will be different.

I don't know what twists and turns are next, but I have the impression that I had to deal with non-resolved traumatic experiences from a past life on that "Nazi trial run" for most of my current life and that I still get flashbacks. I hope to be up to the level. As Viktor Frankl said, “So live as if you were living already for the second time and as if you had acted the first time as wrongly as you are about to act now!”
 

luc

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Gaby said:
If Nazi Germany was just a "trial run", all this "gender dystopia", racial conflicts and postmodernism "rights" could seriously backfire or be used as an excuse to implement "a master race" and/or get rid of all the undesirables. Or maybe it will be different.

Thanks Gaby for the reminder. I guess we need to be careful and not let the "blood boiling" I mentioned cloud our thinking. People are justified in their rage against the leftist thought police and ideology, but what if this gets out of hand? In the Weimar republic, once the economy tanked, the ground was prepared for Hitler to step in (although it was more complicated than that of course). What happens in the West if there's a big economic crisis? Where does all the boiling anger go? Sure people will want to see some heads rolling and may take things into their own hands, forming organizations and what not. So let's watch carefully how all this develops.
 

Cosmos

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I'm currently rereading Pierres article here:

https://www.sott.net/article/355448-Post-nihilism-a-template-for-where-we-are-heading

Although we all know to some extent how bad it is, seeing it gathered and summarized like that, gives you the chills. And it is only the tip of the iceberg! Seems like the plans of 4D STS are working out just fine and it becomes more and more clear how the "dry run" back then in nazi germany, is practically now implemented to be carried out, pretty much globally. It was a long process, longer then any mans life and more cunning and devious then any human being would be able to carry out. Almost the entire global population is being turned, step by step, into mindless, sheepish like, zombies. I think the programming we see in his final stages now, is much more effective, much bigger and much handier then Hitler and co. could have ever imagined.
 

BHelmet

Dagobah Resident
SlipNet said:
Very intensive discussion, it's a pleasure to read such constructive thinking.
.....
By not doing the work to know and cleanse one's lower self, you allow your strings to be pulled and also you can leave yourself psychically open to predation by dark critters in the ether, so to speak.

I think this is a sticky wicket. We can cleanse all we want, but our reactive mechanisms and vulnerabilities are always there built into the software AND hardware like a computer program with backdoors galore. So, to use the "knowledge protects" meme, I think we can be vigilant and aware but to be fully cleansed is a reach, I think. Kind of like fighting a battle where some of the castle walls have been breeched and there is a gatekeeper that keeps letting the wrong guys in and it is a never-ending nightmare scenario. I think my/our strings are always going to get pulled and our leashes will always get jerked but the question is, how do we react? Are we aware of what is going on? Can we see it?

Male/Female relationships are always a great example. My wife has certain behaviors that trigger an emotional reaction in my machine.

But, "love thine enemy".

Every time I get triggered is another opportunity to test myself...to observe the machine...to learn what is going on within me....to SEE the ridiculous programs running... to find their source...to handle the situation in a more satisfactory manner for both of us ... to be more responsible... more "at cause".
.
 
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