Is Alan Watt Credible?

[PopHistorian]

What do you all think of this quote from Alan Watt, from his August 3, 2007 "blurb" podcast?

We are steamrolling into the next phase, the crucial phase, whereas I say, the velvet glove is off the fist of the knight commander, and they plan to scare the wits out of everyone, and have them submit, as good, trembling peasantry should when faced with their betters, those who are superior, by their own declarations, and by their own truth of being successful in the darwinist, socialist terms of acquiring vast amounts of wealth through cunning and skill and holding on to it through generations. And they've passed, as far as they're concerned, all the tests necessary by the laws of nature to dominate you and everyone on the planet, right down to numbering and chipping everything...

The big boys, as I say, are ready to start confiscating the property and locking up those who are classified as dissident -- those who won't buckle under as good, little, hunkering weaklings should. Because psychopaths who are sado-masochistic are afraid of those who can stare them in they eyes and say to them, "I know what you are," and expose them.

This is the time, the time is now for everyone with the abilities and the knowledge to speak out, to start doing it. And yes, you will be disregarded by many of the cowards in society whose condition has taken on better than others. But you'll also be heard by those who crave to know.

I agree with the first two paragraphs. Before I heard this podcast, just two days ago, I felt the change myself, as a confluence of several factors, culminating with the recent appearance on corporate media of "experts" who now tell us that the "terrorist threat" to the USA is just as great from within as from outside. We have the new executive order from Bush, threatening those who disagree with him. We have the "go ahead" just given to turn US spy satellites on the "homeland," etc. I see this as the "velvet glove coming off."

But I'm confused about the last paragraph. What kind of speaking out? This could go either way? What's the message? Is it wise as a serpent to speak out indiscriminately? What's the best way to serve others in this capacity? Interesting. Thoughts?

 

[StevieX]

I have a very uneasy feeling about this year – 2007.

I think things may be about to intensify and ratchet up a notch or two!

Here is a link to a recent Alan Watt ‘audio file’ in which Alan (and the host Dr Bill Deagle) really seem to be trying to forewarn us about something pretty immanent:

_http://cuttingthrough.jenkness.com/audio/Alan_Watt_on_BillDeagleShow_Aug142007.mp3

Or, you can find the audio file to listen/download on:

Cutting Through the Matrix with Alan Watt:

_http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/

on left hand side of the page. Titled as follows:

August 14, 2007
Alan Watt on the Dr. Bill Deagle Show
(Originally Aired LIVE August 14, 2007 on Genesis Communications Network)
LISTEN / DOWNLOAD

I have read this thread about Alan Watt (a long time favourite of mine) with interest … is he ‘cointelpro’? etc.

Well … if he is cointelpro he is sure giving out a lot of info!

Anyway … I love listening to him … love his voice. (It’s a female thing! Lol!)

So, OK, I am hardly impartial!

But … listen to Alan and Dr Bill Deagle on the 14 August show … and some other audio files dated 14 August 2007 … because these guys are certainly warning us that something is about to happen … and if ‘cointelpro’, maybe they are ‘in_the_know!’….

… and, of course, we have Michael Chertoff’s ‘gut feelings’ about a new ‘terrorist initiative’ this summer! And similar ‘gut feelings’ from other Bush-ites! Alan Watt calls this ‘predictive programming’ … seeding the public mind to immediately accept the Government propaganda that another ‘horrific’ terrorist attack has occurred … and naturally it is now time to ‘nuke’ Iran!!!!

I am also very aware of something the C’s said to Laura in 1994:

(Extract from ‘High Strangeness’ by Laura – page 276)

Q: (L) Who are the members of the consortium?

A: Government and others. Aliens.

At this point I asked the question that had been burning in my mind after watching the now famous "Bob Lazar" video exposing the activities at Area 51.

Q: (L) Bob Lazar referred to the fact that aliens supposedly refer to humans as containers. What does this mean?

A: Storage for later use. 94 per cent of all population.

Q: (L) What do you mean?

A: All are containers; 94 per cent will be used.

Q: (L) Used for what?

A: Consumption.

Q: (L)What do you mean by "consumption?" You mean eaten?

A: Total consumption. Consumed for ingredients.

Q: (L) Ingredients for what?

A: New race. Important. 13 years approximately when project will be finished.

Q: (L) Why are humans consumed?

A: They are used for parts.

Q: (L) We don't understand. How can humans be used for parts?

A: Reprototype. The Vats exist. Missing persons often go there [….]

Q: (L) How can we protect ourselves and our children?

A: Inform them. Don't hide the truth from children.

Q: (L) How does truth protect us?

A: Awareness protects. Ignorance endangers.


Did you see the above? “13 years approximately when project will be finished”

1994 + 13 = 2007


And then, of course, also on this website is the post from StarFraction. (The one that got him banned! ) “Interesting Times”.:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=4385

“Within the next 24 months your world is going to be turned upside down.

Be prepared for it.

Your only defence against dis-integration is knowledge. Preparation and understanding.”

I personally find StarFraction to be quite chilling.

He/She posted quite a lot … and, in my opinion, either has a ‘dissociated personality disorder’ or was actually several people.

(Although, he/she could, of course, be one of those fascinating and charming people who have a wealth of real knowledge and ‘play many parts!’ Someone you would love to sit beside at a dinner party! ... maybe)

Anyway, there are some interesting possibilities regarding StarFraction. Viz:

1. He is Cointelpro and is telling the truth about what is forthcoming because ‘they’ are now so powerful they don’t care anymore if we have the info which only serves to terrify us more, and make us more prepared to ‘accept the inevitable’. And, as Alan Watt might describe it, this could be another example of ‘predictive programming.’
2. He genuinely had a ‘lucid dream’ experience and described for us what he experienced.
3. He is lying and making up a story for his own reasons.
4. He is lying and making up a story for his own reasons, BUT, unknown to himself he has ‘tapped’ into a genuine premonition.
5. He is being used by ‘forces’ he has no idea of. (And neither do we.)

Can’t think of any other possibilities. It’s just interesting to list the alternatives out. (I developed this habit from watching/listening to Ark in action! )

Finally, the Mayan Calendar people seem to think we are in an ‘axial year’ in which big directing changes for this 13 year cycle (that goes up to December 2012) are going to happen.

This post isn’t meant to scare – although I’m certainly on edge at the moment. (I actually feel jittery logging on to see the internet news each morning – about 6 a.m. – for apprehension about what might have happened!)

But if knowledge and awareness protect – because at least we are ‘psychically prepared’ for big shocks – then maybe we should try and foresee what is about to happen and when.

Didn’t the Christ become exasperated with a people who could ‘read the seasons, but cannot read the signs of the times?’

Peace
Stevie

“It is He who is revealed in every face, sought in every sign, gazed upon by every eye, worshipped in every object of worship, and pursued in the unseen and the visible. Not a single one of His creatures can fail to find Him in its primordial and original nature.”
- Ibn 'Arabi, Futûhât al-Makkiyya

 

[John G]

I have a very uneasy feeling about this year – 2007... Finally, the Mayan Calendar people seem to think we are in an ‘axial year’ in which big directing changes for this 13 year cycle (that goes up to December 2012) are going to happen...

Laura mentioned there are Astrological aspects for 2007 that are more interesting than 2012. Ark did some calculations relating 2009 and comets. I know a guy (Tony Smith) who mentions a peak for 2007 in relation to the Mayan Calendar (there was one for 9/11/2001 too).

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/2012.html

However, though this kind of stuff can be interesting and fun, one should not get too hung up on specific dates/predictions. We are though certainly around the time when a bunch of cycles can cause things to happen.

 

[StevieX]

Hello John G

Thank you so much for your reply.

My first reply received! Big hug!

I had a look at the link you gave and saw the date: 8/24/2007

Oh well … 8+2+4+2+0+0+7 = 23

23 is the numerological signature of the inverted pentagram; the reversed pentagram with 2 points of the star (pentagram) over 3 points. I.e. 23. The ‘Goat of Mendes.’ ‘Satan.’ ‘Lucifer.’

09/11/2001 = 9+11+2+1 = 23

I know the rules of computation have changed, but as long as you can compute back to the desired ‘occult’ signature it is OK.

And part of the reason is precisely that you are SIGNALLING to those in ‘the Brotherhood’ that this is an inside op.

SIGNALLING …

… look at the UN logo … a world with a ‘grid’ super-imposed over it. Count the number of partitions in the grid. Go on … Google image it … and count!

Yes. 33 (The Star of David … evolutionary and involutionary triangles interpenetrating … up and down … light and dark … white squares/black squares)

The symbol of high masonry. (The number of bones in the spine)

They are telling each other … and us … who is really in control … who is really imposing a grid over this planet!

And I like your quote about ‘trouble in Shangri-la!’

I was named by my Mum after Stevie Nicks … as I guess you guessed.

Love
Stevie

“No country, and no people, can remain free and ignorant at the same time.”
- Thomas Jefferson

 

[matterik]

Morals and Dogma, 18th degree:

Of the whole of mankind, not one in ten thousand has any aspirations
beyond the daily needs of the gross animal life. In this
age and in all others, all men except a few, in most countries, are
born to be mere beasts of burden, co-laborers with the horse and
the ox.

Alan Watts interpretation :

Albert Pike said that "man who would not reason (think and use his own observations), a man who could not reason for himself is therefore a beast of burden and meat on the table by choice and consent."


Alan Watt on The grand Chessboard :

Alan: And they wrote about it before it happened. Brzezinski said, the project for a New American Century this little private club with Chaney and Wolfowitz and Pearl and all the rest of them they printed that two editions in the ‘90s that they wanted to takeover Afghanistan first, then Iraq then Iran then Syria and then Brzezinski wrote it a member of the same group in his book, The Grand Chessboard" the same agenda. Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria and then he said we’ll need something to happen in America on the same scale as a Pearl Harbor attack to motivate the people with the public opinion behind us and low and behold they get the very thing they need. This is impossible. It’s like basing everything on winning the lotto.


Alan: Well I do know that they've said many, many years ago that 2001 is the kickoff time and of course we can find that confirmed in the little click at the top of the Bush Administration and behind the Bush Administration which put forth the policy for the New American Century and they published their findings back in '92 and republished them in '98 and in there they said they would have to attack the Middle East beginning with Afghanistan which they did followed by Iraq, followed by Iran then Syria. Now in 1998, we find Zbigniew Brzezinski brought out his book called The Grand Chessboard, and being a member of the same group he reiterated those same targets in the same order and he said we shall make something on a Pearl Harbor event, on the scale of that event to motive the American people behind us.


I have checked through the grand chessboard and I dont find anywhere anything about the exact order stated : afghanistan, iraq, iran, syria.

However I did find a letter written by PNAC to Bush on the 20th of september 2001 that states it in a way.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter.htm

Alan Watt on Thatcher :

Alan: Now here's the crux of this thing, as this guy is leading you up to the perception that you’re suppose to glean from this or arrive at. It was put forth by Maggie Thatcher in a speech she gave a Massey Hall, one of many speeches across the world, entitled, "The New World Order," when she discussed that the war that would have to come on religion, especially fundamentalist orthodox religions. She mentioned, too, at the time, that she and many other ex-prime ministers, presidents, and dictators, leaders of countries—never leave office. They belong to a higher organization that works behind the scenes, networks with each other, because democracy, you see is too slow. The public show that we get is too slow; and that's really what they're pushing towards. The need for private organizations of experts, skilled people, to move quickly, more swiftly than democratic debates, and that's what we have today, in fact. We've had them for a long time, in reality. This book here, partly, is to get the public or the think tanks that will implement these ideas and market them to newspapers and journalists, who then market it back to us. It's to get them to go along with this, the reasoning in it, the reasonableness in it, in fact.


I have browsed and searched through the speech and I cannot find what he is talking about. Here is the url to the speech :

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/speeches/displaydocument.asp?docid=108325

 

[StevieX]

Hello Matterik,

You have done something that I do not do nearly as often as I should. Namely, researched quoted sources!

1. Alan Watt's interpretation of Albert Pike.

Fairly close from 'off the top of his head' on a radio show. But obviously slanted to one of the things Alan is always talking about ... the 'general public's' lack of clear reasoning ability.

2. Alan Watt on 'The Grand Chessboard' by Zbigniew Brzezinski.

I have no idea about this, because I haven't read it. I keep hearing it quoted though, on the sites I visit. But I'm really not qualified to pass any opinion about what anyone says is contained within it.

3. Alan Watt on Thatcher

Yes. I heard Alan say that Maggie Thatcher had said these things.

Thank you for posting the link to the actual 'speech' he referenced to.

I agree with you. I cannot find anything within it that even vaguely corresponds to what Alan says Margaret Thatcher said!

Like you I have 'browsed and searched through the speech and I cannot find what he is talking about.'

So. What to conclude from this?

Was he outright lying ... on the assumption that no-one would make it back to the source speech?

Did he simply have a mistaken memory ... as all of us can ... as to where what he was remembering had come from?

I have no idea.

I still think he has a very sexy voice ... but that is hardly a relevant factor in assessing his 'genuineness'!

I hardly know what to believe anymore Matterik.

(And by the way, I like your 'blog-site', and particularly the Mayan Calendar diagram you have on it. You have an interesting view on that as well!)

I think the only person I really feel that I fully trust (in these matters) is (or was) G I Gurdjieff. To me Gurdjieff seems to have had a rock solid genuine essence, and to have been completely honest in telling it like it is. I think if I ever was convinced by someone that Gurdjieff was really COINTELPRO, that the whole world would slide out from under my feet!

Thank you Matterik.

God Bless.
Stevie

"Sincerity is the key to self-knowledge, and to be sincere with oneself brings great suffering."
- G I Gurdjieff

 

[Kieran]

StevieX

I was interested in your post about numbers. 23 = inverted pentagram. 2 before 3. The number of segments in the UN 'grid overlay' symbol is 33 (your right - I checked). 33 is a key masonic number. I believe it comes from a fundamental basis of the number 11. A prime number. I think there are supposed to be 11 bones in the skull; 22 bones in the rib-cage; and 33 verterbrea in the spinal column. Something like that. And they do seem to use that 11 number a lot!

Tony Blair is 33 degree mason. So was George Washington. So was - so I read! - Yasser Arrafat!!!!

Are all these guys linked up somehow??

Anyway. I wondered if you have ever come across this. Written by Umberto Eco?

Numerology by Umberto Eco

“I imagine your author holds that the height of the pyramid of Cheops is equal to the square root of the sum of the areas of all its sides. The measurements must be made in feet, the foot being closer to the Egyptian and Hebrew cubit, and not in meters, for the meter is an abstract length invented in modern times. The Egyptian cubit comes to 1.728 feet. If we do not know the precise height, we can use the pyramidion, which was the small pyramid set atop the Great Pyramid, to form its tip.

It was of gold or some other metal that shone in the sun. Take the height of the pyramidion, multiply it by the height of the whole pyramid, multiply the total by ten to the fifth, and we obtain the circumference of the earth. What’s more, if you multiply the perimeter of the base by twenty-four to the third divided by two, you get the earth’s radius. Further, the area of the base of the pyramid multiplied by ninety-six times ten to the eighth gives us one hundred and ninety-six million eight hundred and ten thousand square miles, which is the surface area of the earth. Am I right?”

Belbo liked to convey amazement with an expression he had learned in the cinematheque, from the original-language version of Yankee Doodle Dandy, starring James Cagney: “I’m flabbergasted!” This is what he said now. Aglie also knew colloquial English, apparently, because he couldn’t hide his satisfaction at this tribute to his vanity.

“My friends,” he said, “when a gentleman, whose name is unknown to me, pens a compilation on the mystery of the pyramids, he can say only what by now even children know. I would have been surprised if he had said anything new.”

“So the writer is simply repeating established truths?”

“Truths?” Aglie laughed, and again opened for us the box of his deformed and delicious cigars.

“Quid est veritas, as a friend of mine said many years ago. Most of it is nonsense. To begin with, if you divide the base of the pyramid by exactly twice the height, and do not round off, you don’t get IT, you get 3.1417254. A small difference, but essential. Further, a disciple of Piazzi Smyth, Flinders Petrie, who also measured Stonehenge, reports that one day he caught the master chipping at a granite wall of the royal antechamber, to make his sums work out...Gossip, perhaps, but Piazzi Smyth was not a man to inspire trust; you had only to see the way he tied his cravat. Still, amid all the nonsense there are some unimpeachable truths. Gentlemen, would you follow me to the window?”

He threw open the shutters dramatically and pointed. At the corner of the narrow street and the broad avenue, stood a little wooden kiosk, where, presumably, lottery tickets were sold.

“Gentlemen,” he said, “I invite you to go and measure that kiosk. You will see that the length of the counter is one hundred and forty-nine centimeters—in other words, one hundred-billionth of the distance between the earth and the sun. The height at the rear, one hundred and seventy-six centimeters, divided by the width of the window, fifty-six centimeters, is 3.14. The height at the front is nineteen decimeters, equal, in other words, to the number of years of the Greek lunar cycle. The sum of the heights of the two front corners and the two rear corners is one hundred and ninety times two plus one hundred and seventy-six times two, which equals seven hundred and thirty-two, the date of the victory at Poitiers. The thickness of the counter is 3.10 centimeters, and the width of the cornice of the window is 8.8 centimeters. Replacing the numbers before the decimals by the corresponding letters of the alphabet, we obtain C for ten and H for eight, or C10H8, which is the formula for naphthalene.”

“Fantastic,” I said. “You did all these measurements?”

“No,” Aglie said. “They were done on another kiosk, by a certain Jean-Pierre Adam. But I would assume that all lottery kiosks have more or less the same dimensions. With numbers you can do anything you like. Suppose I have the sacred number 9 and I want to get the number 1314, date of the execution of Jacques de Molay—a date dear to anyone who, like me, professes devotion to the Templar tradition of knighthood. What do I do? I multiply nine by one hundred and forty-six, the fateful day of the destruction of Carthage.

How did I arrive at this? I divided thirteen hundred and fourteen by two, by three, et cetera, until I found a satisfying date. I could also have divided thirteen hundred and fourteen by 6.28, the double of 3.14, and I would have got two hundred and nine.

That is the year in which Attalus I, king of Pergamon, joined the anti-Macedonian League. You see?”
“Then you don’t believe in numerologies of any kind,” Diotallevi said, disappointed.

“On the contrary, I believe firmly. I believe the universe is a great symphony of numerical correspondences, I believe that numbers and their symbolisms provide a path to special knowledge. But if the world, below and above, is a system of correspondences where tout se tient, it’s natural for the kiosk and the pyramid, both works of man, to reproduce in their structure, unconsciously, the harmonies of the cosmos. The so-called pyr-amidologists discover with their incredibly tortuous methods a straightforward truth, a truth far more ancient, and one already known. It is the logic of research and discovery that is tortuous, because it is the logic of science. Whereas the logic of knowledge needs no discovery, because it knows already. Why must it demonstrate that which could not be otherwise? If there is a secret, it is much more profound. These authors of yours remain simply on the surface. I imagine this one also repeats all the tales of how the Egyptians knew about electricity...”
“I won’t ask how you managed to guess.”

“You see? They are content with electricity, like any old Marconi. The hypothesis of radioactivity would be less puerile. There is an interesting idea. Unlike the electricity hypothesis, it would explain the much vaunted curse of Tutankhamen. And how were the Egyptians able to lift the blocks of the pyramids? Can you lift boulders with electric shocks, can you make them fly with nuclear fission? No, the Egyptians found a way to eliminate the force of gravity; they possessed the secret of levitation.

Another form of energy...It is known that the Chaldean priests operated sacred machines by sounds alone, and the priests of Karnak and Thebes could open the doors of a temple with only their voice—and what else could be the origin, if you think about it, of the legend of Open Sesame?”

“So?” Belbo asked.

“Now here’s the point, my friend. Electricity, radioactivity, atomic energy—the true initiate knows that these are metaphors, masks, conventional lies, or, at most,pathetic surrogates, for an ancestral, forgotten force, a force the initiate seeks andone day will know. We should speak perhaps”—he hesitated a moment— “of telluric currents.”

“What?” one of us asked, I forget who. Aglie seemed disappointed.

“You see? I was beginning to hope that among your prospective authors one had appeared who could tell me something more interesting.

But it grows late. Very well, my friends, our pact is made; the rest was just the rambling of an elderly scholar.’’

_http://www.thinking-approach.org/index.php?id=2195


Any thoughts?

Kieran

 

[StevieX]

Hello Kieran

You asked: ‘Any thoughts?’

Oh Kieran!

My first thought is to resign from this forum! Lol!

I never thought that posting here might become a full-time job!!!!

All right. I’ll have a go at replying.

I cannot reply on the level of erudition of Umberto Eco. I am only 22 for goodness sakes!

But … I will try and give you my understanding – so far – of numerology and symbolism.

They are languages.

If people come together and know what words mean in a particular context they have a language.

For example: We might form a group and agree that the words ‘eat’ and ‘horse’ mean respectively ‘get ready’ and ‘war’.

So then, when I send you a message that says: ‘Eat the horse’, you will know that I am saying: ‘Get ready for war’. (Everyone else will either not notice what I have said at all – because it is insignificant in their terms – or will decide I am mad!)

So you have to learn the hidden story of numbers and symbols (pictures). And there are quite a lot of stories … which, of course, does not make it any easier! Babel! (= babble).

Anyway, here is a story that most numerologists/occultists will recognise. Using the numbers from 0 to 10:

0 = the formless, perfectly quiescent and balanced source.
1 = the first/initial divine will or urge toward manifestation
2 = the split/bifurcation of one into two to create the pre-condition of manifestation
3 = the reconciliation of 2 ‘opposites’ to bring into manifestation a 3rd form. (Law of Three).
4 = manifestation in space-time. 3 dimensions of space + 1 of duration. Often symbolised by a cube … 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal of duration.

5 = The arising of a self-aware conscious being. Man. The image of God. This is the mid-point’ of the creative process.

(Now the story begins to become dramatic!)

6 = Choice. The two interpenetrating triangles. One pointing up … one pointing down. The Star of David. Do we choose to struggle to ascend back to the Godhead … or sink ourselves into the ‘pleasures’ of matter and the flesh?

7 = Will. The divine will (as in OUR will in the IMAGE of the DIVINE) now enters into choice. We choose … or not. We struggle to become a ‘man/woman not in quotation marks’, a ‘being who can DO’ … or we perish ‘like an old dog.’ Seven-pointed star. The Charioteer in the Tarot who CONTROLS 3 WHITE and 3 BLACK horses. (The Law of Seven.)

8 = Justice/Karma/Scales of justice. (Beware New Age interpretations here) This is the ‘just balancing’ of 2 worlds – 2 X 4 (see 4 above). The Yang and the Yin. Objective and impartial.

9 = Mastery. It is the number of the accomplished occultist. Mastery over the three worlds – physical, astral, mental … 3 X 3. In the Tarot cards it is represented as the Hermit. (Man number 6?)

10 = Completion. The World. (Understood as it is by the Sage-consciousness). Note that the number 10 is two numbers. 1 and 0. The evolved will/individual is linking back to the ineffable source … in full consciousness.

So we have a story in numbers. The story of the purpose of our life on earth. Now that we understand the meanings encoded in this language we can speak to each other using it. But anyone who does not understand this language will be ‘outside the loop!’

So … say we SOTT members wanted to be able to signal to each other.

We might choose what we are interested in … our conscious evolution … as a signal.

We might choose 5 and 7. I.e. 57.

This would indicate to us ‘humanity’ (5) and ‘will’ (7). Also, we would be aware that 5+7 =12 = 3 … the number of ‘creation’. (Three forces – positive, negative and neutral)

We might form a hand signal. Say holding up 3 fingers of the right hand (folding in the thumb and little finger) which we would be aware would extrapolate back to 3=1+2=12 = 5+7 = OUR BROTHER/SISTERHOOD of SOTT.

And whenever we acted in the world to advance OUR BROTHER/SISTERHOOD of SOTT we would code in (numerologically and symbolically) 57 … or 5 and 7 … or 12 … or 3 …

We would probably choose dates for beneficial SOTT events that reflected these numbers. E.g. 1 January 2008 = 1/1/2008 = 1 +1+2+0+0+8 = 12=5+7=57. One of OUR KEY numbers!!!

Just like 33 for the High Freemasons!

I have always found all this to be fascinating, Kieran.

But I also think it could be deadly!

Take care
Stevie

“ … our purported ‘waking consciousness’ finds our attention so scattered or entrapped, our suggestibility so high, our reactions so mechanical, our sense of ‘I am’ so marginal – that the state is better scientifically classified as one of mild hypnotic coma. We are all asleep. This is not a metaphor but a fact. It is also a social perception more subversive and revolutionary than anything remotely conceived by all the Trotskys and Kropotkins of history; an idea which, like death and the sun, cannot be looked at steadily – a world in trance!
- James Moore

 

[anart]

I cannot reply on the level of erudition of Umberto Eco. I am only 22 for goodness sakes!

But what is your understanding of what Umberto is trying to say? It is a very salient point, you see - numbers can be used for anything - to 'prove' anything, to 'link' anything - whether or not that 'anything' has any objective value or not.

But … I will try and give you my understanding – so far – of numerology and symbolism.

They are languages. (snip)

If we live in a symbolic reality, which it seems that we do, then everything is language. To what extent is an obsession with or excessive focus on 'numerology' a distraction from the objective truth of our reality? That is the question you may want to ask yourself.

Do you KNOW that these numerological symbols that you've listed are objectively accurate - and if they are what does that really get you? Ultimately, there is waking up and there is dreaming - to what extent are fascinating stories actually lullabies? There are limitless vectors out there to pull one's attention, to pull one's energy and focus away from truly waking up. Just some thoughts.

 

[StevieX]

Hello Anart

Oh boy!

And I was just about to settle down with a good book! Or at least I hope it is a good book. ‘Mystical Paths’ by Susan Howatch. (It’s a ‘girly book’, I think, so I guess probably no point in asking if you have read it! Lol!)

This is a dangerous forum to involve oneself in! Timewise that is!

My understanding of what Umberto is trying to say?

Well … I think firstly he is trying to say you can read anything into anything … but then he is also saying that there is a real, underlying ‘readable’ structure.

Reading anything into anything he says:

“With numbers you can do anything you like. Suppose I have the sacred number 9 and I want to get the number 1314, date of the execution of Jacques de Molay—a date dear to anyone who, like me, professes devotion to the Templar tradition of knighthood. What do I do? I multiply nine by one hundred and forty-six, the fateful day of the destruction of Carthage.

How did I arrive at this? I divided thirteen hundred and fourteen by two, by three, et cetera, until I found a satisfying date. I could also have divided thirteen hundred and fourteen by 6.28, the double of 3.14, and I would have got two hundred and nine.

That is the year in which Attalus I, king of Pergamon, joined the anti-Macedonian League. You see?”


But then he also says:

“I believe firmly. I believe the universe is a great symphony of numerical correspondences, I believe that numbers and their symbolisms provide a path to special knowledge. But if the world, below and above, is a system of correspondences where tout se tient, it’s natural for the kiosk and the pyramid, both works of man, to reproduce in their structure, unconsciously, the harmonies of the cosmos.”


OK.

I, personally … just l’il ol me … Stevie … don’t necessarily believe in either of the above.

As I put forward in my last post I am of the opinion that ‘numerology’ and ‘symbology’ are – at least on one level, i.e. discounting archetypal impacts on the human soul – a form of language.

If we become ‘numerology-literate’ and ‘symbology-literate’ we might begin to be able to read some of the ‘signals’ that are all around us and put out by the ‘powers that be’ (PTB).

For example, the NIKE ‘tick’ on sportswear can also be seen as the ‘ring of Saturn’ … and Saturn is not particularly good news. (The Gestapo called themselves ‘the Saturnalian Brotherhood’). Why was that? Well … in Occult terms, Saturn is the ‘punisher’.

It’s just a question of learning a language Anart.

It’s like when you are in an office and everyone around you is speaking Gujarati.

If you don’t speak Gujarati you can’t possibly understand what is being said/talked about/laughed at/or planned for the future.


“To what extent is an obsession with or excessive focus on 'numerology' a distraction from the objective truth of our reality? That is the question you may want to ask yourself.”

Well … I do not have an obsessive focus on numerology. It is being ‘pressed upon me!’ Lol.

I just made a comment in a post about the number 23 … Kieran posted … I replied … you have posted … I reply …

… its just conversation.

But, I am saying that the PTB encode messages in numbers and symbols … which it might help if we were aware of.

For example, were you aware that 911 also relates to Chapter 9 Verse 11 in The Book Of Revelation that relates to Abaddon – the ‘angel of the bottomless pit’ – that is an embodiment of Satan? Yes. They believe they released Satan on 9/11.

Were you aware that the number 322 seen below the ‘Skull and Bones’ (Yale University) lodge symbol (of which Bush and Kerry – and Daddy Bush – are members) refers to Genesis, Chapter 3 Verse 22 in which it is spoken about man having come to know ‘good and evil.’

You said:

“Do you KNOW that these numerological symbols that you've listed are objectively accurate - and if they are what does that really get you?”

I do not for one moment think they are ‘objectively’ accurate. But I do believe that people/entities align themselves with symbologies that tell them (or re-inforce for them) certain commitments. Therefore the ‘numerological symbols’ have their effect in our real world … through the minds (and therefore actions) of those who pledge allegiance to them.

What organisation do you think George Bush is more likely to give his real allegiance to? The Republican Democracy of the USA … or Skull and Bones?

And what effect does his allegiance have on millions of people?

Signs Of The Times must surely be about ‘reading’ the signs of the times … and with the PTB heavily involve in occult symbolism I would think that it would behove us to come up to speed on what the numerology and symbols might mean.

The NAZI swastika for example is an abbreviated BACKWARD moving wheel. The cross slanted on its side with flashes coming off the ends symbolises a wheel in motion. If the flashes go to the left it symbolises a forward moving wheel. (Draw it) If the flashes go to the right it symbolises a backward moving wheel – moving from right to left – the ‘left-hand path.’ Moving ‘back’ into barbarism.

Anyone ‘occultism-literate’ at the time of Hitler would have ‘seen’ the backward moving wheel, set on a background of Red (Blood) against Black (Saturn) and KNOWN exactly what the NAZI party was about.

Some did ‘see’ quite clearly of course. But against the weight of mass ignorance nothing could prevail.

Now I want to read Susan Howatch!

Love
Stevie

"We could become the first country to go fascist through free elections."
- William L. Shirer (speaking of the excesses of the Nixon administration)

 

[anart]

Hello Anart

Oh boy!

And I was just about to settle down with a good book! Or at least I hope it is a good book. ‘Mystical Paths’ by Susan Howatch. (It’s a ‘girly book’, I think, so I guess probably no point in asking if you have read it! Lol!)

Interesting thing for you to say, since I'm female. Perhaps you could use this small example to realize that you might not be seeing everything you think you see correctly - that perhaps where you see grand patterns that will elucidate the PTB, what you are really seeing are distractions - deliberately designed to distract.

I, personally … just l’il ol me … Stevie … don’t necessarily believe in either of the above.

That's probably good - we do not advocate belief here - beliefs are useless - we want to KNOW.

As I put forward in my last post I am of the opinion that ‘numerology’ and ‘symbology’ are – at least on one level, i.e. discounting archetypal impacts on the human soul – a form of language.

If we become ‘numerology-literate’ and ‘symbology-literate’ we might begin to be able to read some of the ‘signals’ that are all around us and put out by the ‘powers that be’ (PTB).

For example, the NIKE ‘tick’ on sportswear can also be seen as the ‘ring of Saturn’ … and Saturn is not particularly good news. (The Gestapo called themselves ‘the Saturnalian Brotherhood’). Why was that? Well … in Occult terms, Saturn is the ‘punisher’.

It’s just a question of learning a language Anart.

I think the interpretation of the Nike swoop is rather tenuous at best. It's a bit of a reach, if you understand my meaning. However, symbology in general is understood - I am wondering if you can move beyond that into seeing a larger picture.

<snip>

For example, were you aware that 911 also relates to Chapter 9 Verse 11 in The Book Of Revelation that relates to Abaddon – the ‘angel of the bottomless pit’ – that is an embodiment of Satan? Yes. They believe they released Satan on 9/11.

Were you aware that the number 322 seen below the ‘Skull and Bones’ (Yale University) lodge symbol (of which Bush and Kerry – and Daddy Bush – are members) refers to Genesis, Chapter 3 Verse 22 in which it is spoken about man having come to know ‘good and evil.’

I am aware of all of this and much more - what you seem to be missing is that I am asking - what does it get you? Are you more awakening or are you so fascinated by the shiny objects and the cool stories that you've fallen even more deeply asleep?

I do not for one moment think they are ‘objectively’ accurate. But I do believe that people/entities align themselves with symbologies that tell them (or re-inforce for them) certain commitments. Therefore the ‘numerological symbols’ have their effect in our real world … through the minds (and therefore actions) of those who pledge allegiance to them.

What organisation do you think George Bush is more likely to give his real allegiance to? The Republican Democracy of the USA … or Skull and Bones?

And what effect does his allegiance have on millions of people? Signs Of The Times must surely be about ‘reading’ the signs of the times … and with the PTB heavily involve in occult symbolism I would think that it would behove us to come up to speed on what the numerology and symbols might mean.

You are missing the point - there is SO MUCH MORE than that and you have stopped at the first tiny point of interest on a very long path. That is fine - that is ok - that is your choice, but please understand that it is what it is.

The NAZI swastika for example is an abbreviated BACKWARD moving wheel. The cross slanted on its side with flashes coming off the ends symbolises a wheel in motion. If the flashes go to the left it symbolises a forward moving wheel. (Draw it) If the flashes go to the right it symbolises a backward moving wheel – moving from right to left – the ‘left-hand path.’ Moving ‘back’ into barbarism.

Anyone ‘occultism-literate’ at the time of Hitler would have ‘seen’ the backward moving wheel, set on a background of Red (Blood) against Black (Saturn) and KNOWN exactly what the NAZI party was about.

I'm not sure where you got this information, but I can assure you that it is just one subjective interpretation, and there are many - the point is that if people are sound asleep they will 'see' nothing and nothing will change.

Some did ‘see’ quite clearly of course. But against the weight of mass ignorance nothing could prevail.

It wasn't ignorance, so much as sleep, Stevie. Do you understand the difference? Enjoy your book.

 

[kenlee]

As I put forward in my last post I am of the opinion that ‘numerology’ and ‘symbology’ are – at least on one level, i.e. discounting archetypal impacts on the human soul – a form of language.

If we become ‘numerology-literate’ and ‘symbology-literate’ we might begin to be able to read some of the ‘signals’ that are all around us and put out by the ‘powers that be’ (PTB).

I think that before your could ever understand this "language" you need to understand epistemology, that is, before you can know, you must know how to know. So it seems to me you are putting the cart before the horse. There are also different gradations of knowledge and there are different levels of consciousness to consider in the act of (objective) knowing.

Without knowing yourself and "how to know" your understanding of symbology will always be subjective and the knower (yourself) will always be separate from the known. For example a dog ”knows” how to scratch an itch. But it's knowledge is based on automatic reaction. At a slightly higher level that dog could begin to “discriminate” between its reactions via selective responses. But it’s still all “binary” knowledge. It’s “knowing” the ‘yes’ or ‘no’ without knowing the relationship between them. Here the knower is separate from the known because the object that is known is placed outside the “act of knowing.” The knower does not know how to know. People who study “numerology” or “symbolism” more then often stand in this category. The bases of their "understanding" is dependent on their automatic and reactive responses to seeing numbers and symbols. They have no objective feedback apart from said reactions (and "reflex" thinking). Everything they know about what they know is subjective because they don’t know how to know and the known and knower are separate.

I think the beginning of real (objective) knowledge is the next higher gradation of knowledge above the animal’s basic discriminative ability to “choose" a selective response to an external stimulus. This comes from relational knowledge. Its here where understanding begins and the knower begins to see its relationship with the object to be known. At this stage one begins to suspend judgment on what they know when they are in doubt. The basis of this doubt is contingent on their own questioning of themselves concerning whether they “know how to know".

I’m sure that there are even higher gradations of knowledge above this but my point is how can you understand numerology and symbology when you don’t know yourself and your own subjective reading instruments? Why are you seeking knowledge focusing on the former (numerology) when you should be focusing on the latter? Otherwise, in my opinion, your ability to understand numerology and symbology will be subjective to a similar degree to which Fido the dog could understand calculus.

 

[Kieran]

Anart and Kenlee

I think you may have achieved what you maybe wanted to achieve. Driven StevieX away! She was responding quite promptly earlier!

Kenlee’s post in particular seems to me to be a thinly veiled ad hominem attack.

“I think that before your could ever understand this "language" you need to understand epistemology, that is, before you can know, you must know how to know. So it seems to me you are putting the cart before the horse.”

“Otherwise, in my opinion, your ability to understand numerology and symbology will be subjective to a similar degree to which Fido the dog could understand calculus.”

The poor girl! She had already said she was a newbie. She didn’t claim any special knowledge. She had the courage to come out of the shadows and put forward her understandings for feedback … and you slam into her like hired thugs paid to put someone firmly ‘in their place!’

Just who the Hell do you think you are Kenlee?

Are you an ascended Master? And I don’t give a damn about your title of ‘Jedi Knight!’

I would have thought a Jedi Knight would be capable of empathic welcome from his ‘superior knowledge.’

Maybe you should think a bit more carefully about how you address people who are less ‘elevated’ than yourselves.

And to StevieX …

Sorry if I embarrass you with this post, but the – IMO – unnecessarily hostile responses you received made me angry.

If you are still reading please be advised that I understood EXACTLY what you were talking about regarding one aspect of ‘numerology’ and ‘symbolism’ being a hidden means of communication in a group. I thought you put it very well.

I was also aware of the Swastika being a wheel in motion (sun wheel), that can be depicted as either moving forward through evolution or back into barbarity. Black and White Magic are even sometimes referred to as the ‘Left Hand Path’ and the ‘Right Hand Path’ respectively.

Kieran

 

[anart]

Anart and Kenlee

I think you may have achieved what you maybe wanted to achieve. Driven StevieX away! She was responding quite promptly earlier!

Please understand that was not, at any time, the point. The only reason I was commenting to Stevie was because she has shown an interest in learning - that is what we do here. At no time, in any of my posts, was I derogatory - there is no reason to be, I was simply asking her to consider her understanding - that is all.

Kenlee’s post in particular seems to me to be a thinly veiled ad hominem attack.

“I think that before your could ever understand this "language" you need to understand epistemology, that is, before you can know, you must know how to know. So it seems to me you are putting the cart before the horse.”

“Otherwise, in my opinion, your ability to understand numerology and symbology will be subjective to a similar degree to which Fido the dog could understand calculus.”

I think you might be over-reacting just a bit on this.

The poor girl! She had already said she was a newbie. She didn’t claim any special knowledge. She had the courage to come out of the shadows and put forward her understandings for feedback … and you slam into her like hired thugs paid to put someone firmly ‘in their place!’

No, you are mistaken. I was investing time and energy into Stevie because she was here to learn. I was encouraging her to think outside of the boundaries within which she was currently thinking - that is all - no judgment, and certainly no 'slamming'. It is interesting that you came away with such an understanding.

Just who the Hell do you think you are Kenlee?

Are you an ascended Master? And I don’t give a damn about your title of ‘Jedi Knight!’

I would have thought a Jedi Knight would be capable of empathic welcome from his ‘superior knowledge.’

Maybe you should think a bit more carefully about how you address people who are less ‘elevated’ than yourselves.

It might serve you well to calm down. I certainly cannot speak for kenlee, but I can certainly tell you, with no uncertainty whatsoever, that you are deeply mistaken with regard to my own motivation and my own actions. Perhaps you should ask yourself why are you being so highly emotional and judgmental toward me?

And to StevieX …

Sorry if I embarrass you with this post, but the – IMO – unnecessarily hostile responses you received made me angry.

If you are still reading please be advised that I understood EXACTLY what you were talking about regarding one aspect of ‘numerology’ and ‘symbolism’ being a hidden means of communication in a group. I thought you put it very well.

I was also aware of the Swastika being a wheel in motion (sun wheel), that can be depicted as either moving forward through evolution or back into barbarity. Black and White Magic are even sometimes referred to as the ‘Left Hand Path’ and the ‘Right Hand Path’ respectively.

Kieran

It seems that you have personally identified with Stevie in this situation and, quite frankly, if I were her, I might be embarrassed by this post of yours. You have effectively made much more of it than it ever was - you have made an elephant out of a fly. I made it clear that, of course, symbolism is pervasive, but there is much more than that - that I personally think she is more than capable of understanding. If I did not think she was capable of understanding - of learning - of growing - then I would not have taken the time and energy to discuss such things with her.

So, exactly what set you off on this emotional rant, keiran - was it your subjective interpretation of the posts to Stevie, or was it your own personal sacred cows being sent out to pasture?

 

[kenlee]

Anart and Kenlee

I think you may have achieved what you maybe wanted to achieve. Driven StevieX away! She was responding quite promptly earlier!

Kenlee’s post in particular seems to me to be a thinly veiled ad hominem attack.

“I think that before your could ever understand this "language" you need to understand epistemology, that is, before you can know, you must know how to know. So it seems to me you are putting the cart before the horse.”

“Otherwise, in my opinion, your ability to understand numerology and symbology will be subjective to a similar degree to which Fido the dog could understand calculus.”

The poor girl! She had already said she was a newbie. She didn’t claim any special knowledge. She had the courage to come out of the shadows and put forward her understandings for feedback … and you slam into her like hired thugs paid to put someone firmly ‘in their place!’

Just who the Hell do you think you are Kenlee?

Are you an ascended Master? And I don’t give a damn about your title of ‘Jedi Knight!’

I would have thought a Jedi Knight would be capable of empathic welcome from his ‘superior knowledge.’

Maybe you should think a bit more carefully about how you address people who are less ‘elevated’ than yourselves.

Actually, I think you speak more for yourself then you do for StevieX. My comments may have "attacked" your own sacred cows on numerology more then anything else and I get the impression that you are hiding behind what you perceive to be (as you say) "that poor girl" to reinforce your own beliefs on numerology.

Numerology as you discuss it will just drive you in endless circles. It will not give you any "knowledge" apart from what you want it to be. True Knowledge begins with self knowledge. And self knowledge begins with consciousness. That was my point.