Japan - 8.9 Earthquake - Fukushima Meltdown

Pagan said:
True, but the wildlife is thriving. See the attached BBC article from 2006.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4923342.stm

Here is some current information from Nuclear Energy Agency (NEA). Not to beat the drum to hard, as it becomes more and more difficult to find what is fact from fiction these days.

25 Years After the Chernobyl Accident

http://www.oecd-nea.org/press/press-kits/chernobyl.html

Though the worst-case public health issues have not materialised, affected communities continue to deal with the consequences 25 years after the Chernobyl accident. While recent reports from the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (UNSCEAR) show that thyroid cancer in children exposed at the time has dramatically increased, they do not show any increase in cancer, leukaemia or other radiation-related illnesses in the affected areas. Contamination levels remain high and these communities require ongoing support from organisations such as the United Nations Development Program (UNDP).
 
Well, I can tell you that if I were offered a good job near Chernobyl, I would take it. This is where the concept of nuclear half-lives comes in. Radioactive isotopes are either highly radioactive for a short period of time (short half-life) or slightly radioactive for a long time (long half-life). They can not be both. After 25 years, the highly radioactive isotopes have almost entirely decayed away. The slightly radioactive isotopes are, well, slightly radioactive, and of no particular concern.

Having said that, I would not want to work anywhere near the stricken Japanese reactor anytime in the next 20 years or so.

I am simply trying to make the point that there actually is some good news from Chernobyl.
 
Pagan said:
Well, I can tell you that if I were offered a good job near Chernobyl, I would take it. This is where the concept of nuclear half-lives comes in. Radioactive isotopes are either highly radioactive for a short period of time (short half-life) or slightly radioactive for a long time (long half-life). They can not be both. After 25 years, the highly radioactive isotopes have almost entirely decayed away. The slightly radioactive isotopes are, well, slightly radioactive, and of no particular concern.

You might want to do some research on that. Yes, iodine 131 has a short half life of around 8 days outside the body (100 days inside the body). However, the half life of plutonium is 24,200 years. The half life of uranium233 is 160,000 years. The half life of strontium90 is 28.90 years. The half life of cesium 137 is 30.17 years.

So, tell me, what job would you move into that radioactive wasteland for?
 
Anart, you have made my case for me. Pu and U have, as you have stated, very long half-lives. Therefore they are not highly radioactive and not dangerous to be around due to their radiation. The daughter products of their decay, like Cs-137 and Sr-90 have, as you have said, half lives of about 30 years each. As it has been 25 years since the Chernobyl accident, a little less than half of the Cs-137 and Sr-90 have already disappeared.

When talking about spent fuel in pools for storage, I think the figure is that 90% of the radiation is gone after 10 years. I will check that figure.

So I stand by my statement. If somebody offered me a good job working in the Chernobyl area, I would not hesitate due to fear of radiation. Of course, I realize that nobody is going to offer me a job there as the place still has restricted access and not much of anything is going on there.
 
Pagan said:
Anart, you have made my case for me. Pu and U have, as you have stated, very long half-lives. Therefore they are not highly radioactive and not dangerous to be around due to their radiation.

To say that Plutonium and Uranium are not dangerous to be around is simply ignorant or disingenuous.

It is true that when you measure radioactivity with a meter, an isotope with longer half-life will give a smaller reading. However, the human body is not a radioactivity meter. If inhaled, any amount of radioactive material, no matter how tiny, would be extremely harmful and dangerous to the body. Considering that thousands of tons of radioactive materials was released in the Chernobyl incident, it would not be safe to live in that area in any time scale relevant to mankind.

Added:
Pagan said:
True, but the wildlife is thriving. See the attached BBC article from 2006.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4923342.stm

I think the wildlife thriving is due to the absence of humans, who used to hunt them down. It doesn't mean that they are doing as well as in a normal habitat.
 
Hello Pagan,

Pagan said:
Anart, you have made my case for me.
It is not a competition, that's silly.

Pagan said:
As it has been 25 years since the Chernobyl accident, a little less than half of the Cs-137 and Sr-90 have already disappeared.
Yes, but half of how much? It depends upon so many factors. It is not only the number of unstable isotopes in a certain area that matters, but also how you ingest them, at what rate, do you ingest them by inhalation (to the lungs) through food (digestive system), or just as deposits on the skin, etc. How mush time do they stay in certain organs while decaying, at what rate do you eliminate (or not) them from your organism, how do the cells in certain organs do react, etc. So it's not even a matter of a single exponential function of a known decay constant and unknown initial quantity, as it is linked to the complexity of the living organisms, especially the human organism.

Pagan said:
So I stand by my statement. If somebody offered me a good job working in the Chernobyl area, I would not hesitate due to fear of radiation.
It's your choice, good luck :)

Edit:

Bobo08 said:
Considering that thousands of tons of radioactive materials was released in the Chernobyl incident, it would not be safe to live in that area in any time scale relevant to mankind.
Indeed, and especially for materials with very long time factors. If you have a radioactivity rate today, you'll have sensitively the same a few years later.
 
I have checked my notes and confirmed that in the case of spent fuel rods, 90% of the radiation is gone after 10 years. Therefore, in the case of Chernobyl, 25 years after the fact, way more than 90% of the radiation must be gone by now. There is a great deal of radiation paranoia around, but despite that, there is such a thing as an insignificant dose of radiation. If that were not the case then anyone that ever worked in a uranium mine would be in bad shape. Such is not the case.

If you want to read an excellent book on the advantages of nuclear power, I suggest you read "Power to Save the World" by G. Cravens or at least take a look at her website _http://cravenspowertosavetheworld.com/
 
Pagan said:
If you want to read an excellent book on the advantages of nuclear power, I suggest you read "Power to Save the World" by G. Cravens or at least take a look at her website _http://cravenspowertosavetheworld.com/

I think I should go through this whole thread if you haven't done so. And you will probably understand there is really "no advantage" of nuclear power. People say there is advantage because it prosper business and economy and it seems like the only "benefit" of nuclear power for society. I think it's silly if you still say that it is not as "bad" compared to the fact that it has destroyed the ecosystem around the area of Chernobyl (and elsewhere) and brought many suffering to people in the past.

Power to Save the World said:
Power to Save the World is an eloquent, convincing argument for nuclear power as a safe energy source and an essential deterrent to global warming.

And when people say nuclear power is "clean energy", they say it because it does not release carbon dioxide which is cause for "global warming". But global warming is also hoax; you will find a lot of articles to support the reason about this on SOTT page. Remember, carbon dioxide exists in nature but nuclear waste doesn't.

"Some" of Chernobyl radiation might be gone as you say. But this doesn't mean that nuclear power is safe. It has been spreading pain and grief to the nature whenever there is an accident and once it happens the area is not going recover the same way (at least for thousands of years.)
 
Power to Save the World is an eloquent, convincing argument for nuclear power as a safe energy source and an essential deterrent to global warming.

The below article is about some of the concequences of radiation; from an area used for nuclear testing in Semipalatinsk, Kazakhstan:

"In his documentary After the Apocalypse, director Antony Butts visits Semipalatinsk, Kazakhstan, home to a Soviet-era weapon test site where 456 nuclear tests were conducted during the cold war. Butts explores the conflict between a pregnant woman whose own genetic deformity is believed to be due to radiation exposure and the head of the city's maternity clinic who tries to convince her not to carry her child to term. At the heart of their struggle is the legacy of nuclear weapons and how little we know about the long-term effects of radiation."

_http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/05/the-aftermath-of-nuclear-war.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

As the article and movie discusses, the documented hazards of radiation exposure - mutation, cancer etc - are one thing, but furthermore nothing certain can be known of the long term outcomes of radiation exposure, for obvious reasons. In view of this it is impossible to argue convincingly for the safety of living and working in a radiated enviroment. All available facts point to a decisive health risk, which is why there is such an uproar over Chernobyl and Fukushima.
 
and also the terrible effects of the DU weapons, made of nuclear plant byproducts, are having on the population in Iraq! Saying that radioactive dust is not dangerous is ignorant and irresponsible. Disinformation about nuclear byproducts is surprisingly linked to the global warming scam, interresting.
 
Pagan said:
Well, I can tell you that if I were offered a good job near Chernobyl, I would take it.
:) Unless You actively apply for a job there methinks that point is no point at all. In fact I believe it to be moot, mush and warm weather.
 
Current readings, and monitoring, from the Radiation Network www.radiationnetwork.com

Update: 5/15/11, 10:40 A.M. - Rainwater contamination................Distance from Prescott, AZ. to Fujishima, Japan: 5455 miles = 8778.97152 kilometers.

Up to now, I have indicated that I have found no contamination in my rainwater, from a couple of previous tests. This changed, however, on May 10th when we received an unseasonable 1/4" rainfall here in Prescott, Arizona. The family car had been outdoors in the rain, so I wiped an otherwise clean, but wet window with a paper towel, brought that inside, and laid it on a paper plate, which itself was sitting on a wooden table. First, I attempted a momentary scan with my Digilert 100, a "standard" tubed Geiger counter, aiming its thin mica end window directly at the wet towel, slowly surveying the surface area. But the momentary scan did not indicate any perceptible radioactivity.

So in the interest of thoroughness, I resorted to a 20 minute count, using the Total/Timer mode of the Digilert, fixing the position of the instrument, with the end window oriented directly at the water-soaked towel just 1/4" away. At the end of the test, the instrument had accumulated 514 radiation counts, or about 26 CPM (Counts per Minute). Then I created a scientific control, conducting a similar 20 minute count on an identical paper towel moistened with tap water this time, sitting on an identical paper plate, and in the same position on the same wooden table. The accumulated count was 407, or about 20 CPM.

If that comparison wasn't enough to indicate slight radioactivity from the rainwater, I looked at my logged average of indoor "environmental" radiation for the previous 20 minutes before disconnecting my Digilert from the computer to scan the water, and wouldn't you know it, but that was also 20 CPM. So short of an even longer timed count, this analysis almost certainly revealed that the captured rainwater was emitting 6 CPM of radiation. What are the lessons here?

When determining whether or not an object or environment is radioactive, always start with a momentary scan of a few seconds. If the substance is obviously radioactive, you will know it right away, and then can spend the rest of your time on other matters. In the real life example above, even though the rainwater was emitting radiation, in order for me to notice that from a momentary scan, I would have had to hear or see one extra radiation count every 10 seconds (1 minute divided by the 6 CPM radiation emission), a feat too great for this human being.
If a momentary scan does not reveal perceptible radioactivity, and if you want to be thorough, only then would you typically resort to a timed count, and preferably using a radiation detector that automates that process.
Back to the rainwater, though. The question is, "Was the radiation in the rainwater from Fukushima?" I have received input from two scientists indicating that there is a natural explanation for radioactive rainwater. In one explanation, the atmosphere includes radon gas among the other gaseous elements, and radon "daughters" are brought to the earth's surface by rainfall. These radioactive particles include alpha and beta emitters often with short half lives, so the same scan of rainwater done hours or days or weeks later may no longer reveal any radioactivity.

The same scientist, from a recent trip to Japan, has indicated that there are "hot spots" of radioactivity in the soil at different locations there, presumably from localized rainfall. In those cases, it would make sense that most of the the radiation in the rainwater was from Fukushima. To say the same thing about rainwater here in Prescott, Arizona would require more study, including analysis or baselines of rainfall from pre-Fukushima days, which I do not have.

A passing thought - we have a vegetable garden, and I have often wondered how natural rainwater seems to exert a magical, therapeutic effect on the plants, as compared to irrigation water despite its natural mineral content. Could it dare be that a little, naturally-occurring radiation in the rainwater is a good thing?


http://www.radiationnetwork.com/Message.htm
 
Pagan said:
I have checked my notes and confirmed that in the case of spent fuel rods, 90% of the radiation is gone after 10 years. Therefore, in the case of Chernobyl, 25 years after the fact, way more than 90% of the radiation must be gone by now. There is a great deal of radiation paranoia around, but despite that, there is such a thing as an insignificant dose of radiation. If that were not the case then anyone that ever worked in a uranium mine would be in bad shape. Such is not the case.

If you want to read an excellent book on the advantages of nuclear power, I suggest you read "Power to Save the World" by G. Cravens or at least take a look at her website _http://cravenspowertosavetheworld.com/

Please do some unbiased research Pagan - or are you a spokesperson for the nuclear industry and really not interested in the truth of the matter? Perhaps a job at Chernobyl would be a great idea for you...
 
Pagan said:
True, but the wildlife is thriving. See the attached BBC article from 2006.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4923342.stm

Did you ever hear the word "propaganda"?


P said:
I am simply trying to make the point that there actually is some good news from Chernobyl.

Not very good for Chernobyl birds having smaller brains:

(Feb 2011 study) Here we used an extensive sample of 550 birds belonging to 48 species to test the prediction that even in the absence of post-traumatic stress, there is a negative association between relative brain size and level of background radiation.... Low dose radiation can have significant effects on normal brain development as reflected by brain size and therefore potentially cognitive ability. ...

Not good for barn swallows either. Elevated frequency of abnormalities in barn swallows from Chernobyl, 2007 study:

Ever since the Chernobyl accident in 1986, that contaminated vast areas in surrounding countries with radiation, abnormalities and birth defects have been reported in human populations. Recently, several studies suggested that the elevated frequency of such abnormalities can be attributed to poverty and stress in affected human populations. Here, we present long-term results for a free-living population of barn swallows, Hirundo rustica, demonstrating the presence of 11 morphological abnormalities in populations around Chernobyl, but much less frequently in an uncontaminated Ukrainian control population and three more distant control populations. The presence of these abnormalities in barn swallows is associated with reduced viability. These findings demonstrate a link between morphological abnormalities and radiation in an animal population that cannot be attributed to poverty and stress. The most parsimonious hypothesis for abnormalities in animal and human populations alike is that the effects are caused by the same underlying cause, viz. radiation derived from the Chernobyl accident.

DNA damage in barn swallows (Hirundo rustica) from the Chernobyl region, 2009 study

We investigated levels of DNA damage in blood cells of barn swallows (Hirundo rustica) inhabiting the Chernobyl region to evaluate whether chronic exposure to low-level radioactive contamination continues to induce genetic damage in free-living populations of animals. ... The results we obtained are consistent with previous findings on this same species, which showed that swallows breeding in areas heavily contaminated with radionuclides have increased mutation rates, higher oxidative stress and incidence of morphological aberrations and tumors. Overall, these results indicate that chronic exposure to radioactive contaminants, even 20years after the accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant, continues to induce DNA damage in cells of free-living animals.

Chernobyl: Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment by Alexey V. Yablokov, Vassily B. Nesterenko, Alexey V. Nesterenko, published 2011 [Google Books]

Chapter 10 - Chernobyl's Radioactive Impact on Fauna
The radioactive shock when the Chernobyl reactor exploded in 1986 combined with chronic low-dose contamination has resulted in morphologic, physiologic, and genetic disorders in every animal species that has been studied—mammals, birds, amphibians, fish, and invertebrates. These populations exhibit a wide variety of morphological deformities not found in other populations. Despite reports of a "healthy" environment in proximity to Chernobyl for rare species of birds and mammals, the presence of such wildlife is likely the result of immigration and not from locally sustained populations. Twenty-three years after the catastrophe levels of incorporated radionuclides remain dangerously high for mammals, birds, amphibians, and fish in some areas of Europe. Mutation rates in animal populations in contaminated territories are significantly higher and there is transgenerational genome instability in animal populations, manifested in adverse cellular and systemic effects. Long-term observations of both wild and experimental animal populations in the heavily contaminated areas show significant increases in morbidity and mortality that bear a striking resemblance to changes in the health of humans—increased occurrence of tumor and immunodeficiencies, decreased life expectancy, early aging, changes in blood and the circulatory system, malformations, and other factors that compromise health.


For further reading:

- CRI Publications related to chernobyl

- Highlights of recent press coverage

- Chernobyl Birds' Defects Link Radiation, Not Stress, to Human Ailments

- Chernobyl Disease: Stress Or Radiation?

Pagan said:
If you want to read an excellent book on the advantages of nuclear power, I suggest you read "Power to Save the World" by G. Cravens or at least take a look at her website _http://cravenspowertosavetheworld.com/

- CHERNOBYL AND IT'S LEGACY

- Chernobyl Legacy: Intro and whole Essay. WARNING: pictorial and extremely heartbreaking.

- When nuclear reactors blow, the first thing that melts down is the truth. Nuclear Power Loses its Alibi

Pagan, there is much much more if you're ready to confront your beliefs.
 
Interesting that my references and research are “propaganda” and “biased” and yours aren't. Do you really believe that the anti-nuclear lobby is above using its own propaganda? I would say that some unbiased research and confronting of one's beliefs is due all around.
 
Back
Top Bottom