Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The next time I experience this (probably tonight), I'll test this out (the tea and staying awake), see where it takes me and report back.

So as it turns out, I slept through the night. I went to bed around 11pm and woke up around 5:30 - still about 6 hours sleep which is pretty usual at this point.

I've been up all day and am feeling pretty good in terms of energy levels for the most part. Over the past few days, my mind feels as if it's sped up - lots of ideas coming which was standard before but faster/quicker now. The really nice thing about it is that I actually feel as if I have the energy to actually put those ideas into action. Not too shabby. :)

Added:

Great post on the web; well worth reading:

Brilliant post and quite inspirational.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Did my fourth work-out today... thought I was gonna collapse! I tell ya, by the time I get to the leg press (the last one), I can only roll off of it onto the floor and crawl!

Interesting development. Remember my sleepless night and legs hurting? Turns out that has happened to most everyone else here in the house. Bone pain in the legs from the hip to the knees, not below. And the skin hurts. Laying in the bed hurts from the pressure. The hip joints hurt. It comes on the 2nd or 3rd day and lasts a few hours.

The only thing we can figure, is that this might be a symptom of the upregulating of the stem cell stuff that comes from the long bones of the body where marrow and all that is made. It goes away, but it damn sure kept me up for a night. I thought I was just old and decrepit and that's why I was hurting like that down to my bones, but when it started happening to some of the kids in exactly the same way, we had to think about it.

I think we ought to move all the discussion about ketogenic diet to it's own thread.

 

[Joe]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Odyssey, I guess you aren't really understanding that this is not supposed to be full bore fasting, but just maybe 48 hours at most to get the ketosis going and keep it going WHILE EATING but restricting protein so that it won't be converted to glucose. Full fasting only turns your body's "conserve" thing on, it doesn't necessrily do that much good to persist.

I think this is about right. I didn't actually fast, just greatly reduced protein intake to the point that I felt like I was fasting. Just for two days though, and that was enough to put me into ketosis (according to the sticks) and I also got the hip joints/leg pain last night, it was REALLY uncomfortable, but I was able to sleep after a while. Now I'm back eating slightly less protein than I ate before, and adding more fat, and more or less zero carbs. In addition, I'll be doing the thrice weekly short weightlifting workouts. I figure I'll give it a few weeks (or months) and see what the results are.

 

[RedFox]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

A quick note to say the low(er) protein and almost zero carb days are helping a lot (although in the past it didn't), my head is clearer and I have very little muscle fatigue - it's actually quite interesting to note how much muscle fatigue I had with the contrast.
I tried a 16 hour fast last week, and the initial effects where really good. But a word of caution to those with delicate systems, as it knocked my digestion out for some days later. Either I over did the fat when eating again, and/or my body went into major detox mode. It did however clear up some joint pain I didn't know I had, and the leg cramp that has been hanging around for the last 6 months.
So far I'm sticking to protein/carb restriction every few days.

A few articles that may be of use to those finding there systems struggling to respond (this is a very abridged/quick overview):

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9973329

(R)-alpha-lipoic acid-supplemented old rats have improved mitochondrial function, decreased oxidative damage, and increased metabolic rate.

Abstract
A diet supplemented with (R)-lipoic acid, a mitochondrial coenzyme, was fed to old rats to determine its efficacy in reversing the decline in metabolism seen with age. Young (3 to 5 months) and old (24 to 26 months) rats were fed an AIN-93M diet with or without (R)-lipoic acid (0.5% w/w) for 2 wk, killed, and their liver parenchymal cells were isolated. Hepatocytes from untreated old rats vs. young controls had significantly lower oxygen consumption (P<0. 03) and mitochondrial membrane potential. (R)-Lipoic acid supplementation reversed the age-related decline in O2 consumption and increased (P<0.03) mitochondrial membrane potential. Ambulatory activity, a measure of general metabolic activity, was almost threefold lower in untreated old rats vs. controls, but this decline was reversed (P<0.005) in old rats fed (R)-lipoic acid. The increase of oxidants with age, as measured by the fluorescence produced on oxidizing 2',7'-dichlorofluorescin, was significantly lowered in (R)-lipoic acid supplemented old rats (P<0.01). Malondialdehyde (MDA) levels, an indicator of lipid peroxidation, were increased fivefold with age in cells from unsupplemented rats. Feeding rats the (R)-lipoic acid diet reduced MDA levels markedly (P<0.01). Both glutathione and ascorbic acid levels declined in hepatocytes with age, but their loss was completely reversed with (R)-lipoic acid supplementation. Thus, (R)-lipoic acid supplementation improves indices of metabolic activity as well as lowers oxidative stress and damage evident in aging.

And
_http://library.ibp.ac.cn/html/slwj/000223266300005.pdf

Taurine protected myocardial mitochondria injury induced by hyperhomocysteinemia in rats

Summary. Taurine can protect against cardiovascular diseases, whereas elevated levels of plasma homocysteine are associated with atherosclerotic and thromboembolic cardiovascular diseases. To illustrate the effects of taurine on hyperhomocysteinemia, we observed the myocardial mitochondria dysfunction in the rats with hyperhomocysteinemia induced by diet methionine loading, and the therapeutic effect of taurine. A methionine diet increased plasma homocysteine concentration (133.51
27.91
mol=L vs
12.31
2.58
mol=L in control, P<0.01), stimulated the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) in the myocardial mitochondria, and inhibited the activities of mitochondrial Mn-superoxide dismutase and catalase. The 45 Ca uptake and Ca 2þ-ATPase activity in the myocardial mitochondria were significantly lowered in rats with hyperhomocysteinemia.
Taurine supplements effectively attenuated the hyperhomocysteinemiainduced ROS production and inhibition of Mn-superoxide dismutase and catalase activities in the myocardial mitochondria, and increased its 45 Ca uptake and Ca 2þ-ATPase activity. Thus, taurine antagonizes the oxidative stress injury in the myocardial mitochondria induced by the hyperhomocysteinemia.

[..]

In summary, supplementation with taurine ameliorated injury to the function and structure of myocardial mitochondria in methionine-loaded rats with hyperhomocysteinemia by decreasing the production of ROS and accelerating their clearance, and improving calcium regulation ability. This effect of taurine may be useful for cardioprotection in cardiovascular diseases accompanied by hyperhomocysteinemia. Researchers should pay more attention to the interactions and molecular mechanisms of SAAS under physiological and pathophysiological conditions.

Excess carbs, or protien (i.e. more than your body needs) will elevate homocystine levels. Genetic mutations and/or lack of certain B vitimins will prevent the homocystine being recycles to methionine.
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homocysteine

Health effects

Elevated levels of homocysteine have been associated with a number of disease states. However, benefits from efforts to lower homocysteine levels are either not supportive or not conclusive. This includes no evidence to support prevention of cardiovascular disease (including in those with kidney disease),[2][3] tentative but inconclusive evidence for congestive heart failure[4] and bone health.[5]

Elevated homocysteine

Deficiencies of the vitamins folic acid (B9), pyridoxine (B6), or B12 (cobalamin) can lead to high homocysteine levels.[6] Supplementation with pyridoxine, folic acid, B12, or trimethylglycine (betaine) [found in beetroot] reduces the concentration of homocysteine in the bloodstream.[7][8] Increased levels of homocysteine are linked to high concentrations of endothelial asymmetric dimethylarginine. Recent research suggests that intense, long duration exercise raises plasma homocysteine levels, perhaps by increasing the load on methionine metabolism.[9] Chronic consumption of alcohol may also result in increased plasma levels of homocysteine.[10][11]
Elevations of homocysteine also occur in the rare hereditary disease homocystinuria and in the methylene-tetrahydrofolate-reductase polymorphism genetic traits. The latter is quite common (about 10% of the world population) and it is linked to an increased incidence of thrombosis and cardiovascular disease, which occurs more often in people with above minimal levels of homocysteine (about 6 μmol/L). These individuals require adequate dietary riboflavin in order for homocysteine levels to remain normal. Common levels in Western populations are 10 to 12 and levels of 20 μmol/L are found in populations with low B-vitamin intakes (e.g., New Delhi) or in the older elderly (e.g., Rotterdam, Framingham). Women have 10-15% less homocysteine during their reproductive decades than men, which may help explain the fact they suffer myocardial infarction (heart attacks) on average 10 to 15 years later than men.[citation needed] However, this phenomenon is more readily explained by higher levels of estrogen, which exerts a cardioprotective effect.

On paleo and homocystine
_http://thepaleodiet.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/paleo-diet-q-homocysteine.html

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

We've concluded that we don't want to do supplementation because, as one paper points out, supplementing one function can throw off other functions, so I think it is a good idea to try to let the body do its thing without much interference. The only thing we are taking during this experiment is fish oil - just an added fat.

But yes, adjusting the protein amount carefully seems to be key.

You may find that your bowels kind of slow down because you aren't taking in so much food and nothing to irritate the colon. Not to worry, they will eventually move and the volume will be smaller because you are digesting more thoroughly, growing fewer gut bacteria.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think we've got the meat (no pun intended) of the ketogenic diet discussion in its own thread here now.

Just want to note that I've dropped 4 kilos below my plateau that was driving me nuts. I feel generally good, not over-energized, but good. I want to try to get some of the key points of an additional group of papers we've collected included so give me a little time to do that. But quickly, from what I understand, getting the "wild mtDNA" kicked into play is the key and it takes about a week to start feeling the benefits IF you have a load of damaged/mutated mtDNA to get rid of. And then, the whole process starts humming along at about 3 weeks. That is, most of the damaged mtDNA have now committed suicide and the wild/original mtDNA is well proliferated and beginning to give the right energy to the organs. Obviously, even though the organ systems begin getting the energy they need, it may take some time for healing of many systems to be effected. So any long-term conditions may take months for the body to correct (that's my guess). So I think one has to stay the course for at least 3 months, if not 6, to climb out of the hole, whatever it was/is in your case.

One thing we have noticed is that, with the bone broth as the "starter" for your meal, or a complete meal late in the day, you are able to get in a lot of extra fat in a palatable way. Just put some good bones full of marrow in the pressure cooker, cover with water, some salt and pepper and maybe a shake of garlic powder, lock it down, and cook just under "spitting level" for two or three hours. Then, get all the gristle and any bits of meat and marrow into the broth (should all come out and fall off anyway), remove the bones and toss, blend it and put in a big jar in the fridge, take out and have a cup when hungry. You can add some extra lard to it to make it fattier. The minerals that come out of the bones and the stuff in the marrow just does something!

I also mentioned the liver pate we make on the canning thread and it is worth including here since we have found that it is HARD to get that 4 to 1 fat to protein ratio in a palatable way. So we are working on that.

The pate is made by getting a whole load of pork livers chopped up with some other really cheap fatty part of the pork, then we chop up a bunch of bacon and mix so it is about 5 to 1 pork liver mix to bacon, chop up onions and a little garlic, and cook all that together in a big pot until it is lightly done, onions cooked. Of course, salt and pepper is added. Then some seasoning which consists of nutmeg, I think (Ailen and Andromeda will have to speak about that when they get a minute). Extra lard (freshly rendered) is added, and the whole thing is put through the food processor and then poured into a big bowl. It is kind of sloppy at that point because the lard is very liquid. Then it is tested for taste, adjusted, and then spooned into jars, rims cleaned carfully, seals put on, lids tightened, and put in the canner for processing.

This stuff is so fantastically delicious... When we open a jar, we often take a bunch out and mix it with even more fresh lard to make it even fattier as a way of getting more fat palatably. It is divine on a lettuce leaf rolled up, glopped on about anything else you eat, or straight out of the jar with a fork!

The end result is that we are eating a WHOLE LOT LESS overall and utilizing our food source more efficiently. I guess now we know why all the paleolithic finds indicate that our ancestors sat around breaking bones open to get the marrow out. I used to think that this was because they were having hard times, but now I think it is because they realized how fatty it was and their bodies were sensitive enough for them to know immediately that it made them feel good.

Some of the guys here actually eat tablespoons of lard straight. Yikes!

Anybody who has trouble with digestion, don't forget your ox-bile, HCL, and/or enzymes! And make sure that you work on getting your protein amount optimized. You NEED that particular amount of protein that is right for you and then, 4 times more fat!

 

[Scottie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I noticed that I was eating WAAAAY too much fat, and far too little protein. This resulted in a couple of days of upset stomach, diarrhea, and irritability.

So, then I cut down on the monstrous quantity of fat (still making sure I was getting more than before), and restored protein levels to 1.5 times my weight in kg.

Well, that did it! I feel great again.

One note about the bone broth: eat it! I woke up this morning with some mild cramps in my lower legs, and I think this was because I was missing some minerals. Since I've stopped supplements entirely, my bone broth lunch was like THE most delicious thing I've eaten in ages. It's funny how that works.

As for the supplements, like Laura said, don't take them. I was taking 16g of Vit C every day, NAC 3x per day, Mg, plus a few others. On days where I was exposed to more toxic stuff (paint fumes or whatever), I would take 20g or more with no bubbly tummy.

I stopped all that when I went into full ketosis (which only took a day, although I stretched it out with a 16-hour fast + workouts to make sure I was in serious ketosis just in case).

Man, what a difference!

The savings on supplements alone is worth it.

I can't say that I'm superman, and I really felt crappy with too much fat/not enough protein, but now that I've stabilized, things are groovy.

I haven't had the "sore leg" problem (yet?) so that's good. I think...

I also had a sore shoulder that was bugging me for about a month on and off. I could never quite get rid of it. Well, going into full ketosis and dropping carbs really low just kicked the bejesus out of it. All better!

We'll see what happens next.

 

[Breton]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So... in just a quick question, just checking if I get what is basically going on here:

do I understand from this that when we all (or many of us) went into ketosis around last summer, we probably have not stayed in ketosis all the time since then? This was often because (for many of us) we let our protein intake get to high and the conversion to glucose stopped or slowed it? So now this Intermittent Fasting and such is necessary to heal mtDNA and ALSO is a good way to get back into ketosis as well?

 

[Z...]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

We'll see what happens next.

I am curious what happens during ketosis with peeps who are on the thinner side and don't want to lose more weight. Has your BW plummeted?

 

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am curious what happens during ketosis with peeps who are on the thinner side and don't want to lose more weight. Has your BW plummeted?

I wouldn't say it's plummeted but my pants are definitely bigger (one size?). The way I'm looking at it though is which is more important to me, feeling better than I have in years or being thinner. That said, it is odd losing weight because it's the last thing I wanted but I'm currently wondering what will happen if/when the wild dna heals - perhaps my system will regulate itself enough for me to start gaining. Quite an adventure. :)

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am curious what happens during ketosis with peeps who are on the thinner side and don't want to lose more weight. Has your BW plummeted?

I wouldn't say it's plummeted but my pants are definitely bigger (one size?). The way I'm looking at it though is which is more important to me, feeling better than I have in years or being thinner. That said, it is odd losing weight because it's the last thing I wanted but I'm currently wondering what will happen if/when the wild dna heals - perhaps my system will regulate itself enough for me to start gaining. Quite an adventure. :)

Same here, it was a choice between having big muscles to show off, or being skinny but feeling fantastic and realising my potential as a human being. Not much of a choice there! I may end up having both after my body comes completely into balance.

Adventure indeed, it's really fun to experiment. I mean, nobody else is doing this stuff, this could be totally groundbreaking! I wasn't here for all the dot-connecting breakthroughs made by this group so far, so it feels great to be part of it :) .

 

[Don Genaro]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well it's been a while since I checked in on the LWB thread.I was surprised to see that it had jumped 50 odd pages or so! My diet has mainly been patties made with belly pork and fried in lard along with fried eggs for breakfast (either patties or pork chops). I usually take a couple of patties to work and eat them cold when I get hungry and have the same for my evening meal with some salad.

This IF topic is fascinating and I'll be giving it a go. I'm also very thin and initially lost about 5 kilos last year when I cut the carbs but I gained it back again. It's funny, I could almost sense the IF thing coming when recently, due to circumstances I went without food from midday until midnight. Unfortunately, due to conditioning, I guess, I had a very light dinner when I knew I could have gone without- the hunger pangs weren't very strong.

Anyway, it's been on my mind to post the following excerpt from "Journey to Ixtlan" for some time now. I thought it might fit in here...

He picked up the gourds with food and fastened them to his back. He handed me a string with eight pieces of dry meat strung on it and made me hang it from my neck.

"This is power food," he said.

"What makes it power food, don Juan?"

"It is the meat of an animal that had power. A deer, a unique deer. My personal power brought it to me. This meat will sustain us for weeks, months if need be. Chew little bits of it at a time, and chew it thoroughly. Let the power sink slowly into your body."

Maybe this could be another way to approach IF since it's been suggested that instead of fasting outright, we try and eat very little. Maybe, in general, (and because our bodies have been damaged we need to) we eat a lot more than we really need to?

BTW I haven't really been taking supplements except, intermittently, Magnesium and Fish Oil when funds aren't too tight. I was thinking of getting more Mg but I see you guys have cut out. Is there a case against taking Mg? I also still regularly take 2mg of Melatonin.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Same here, it was a choice between having big muscles to show off, or being skinny but feeling fantastic and realising my potential as a human being. Not much of a choice there! I may end up having both after my body comes completely into balance.

Adventure indeed, it's really fun to experiment. I mean, nobody else is doing this stuff, this could be totally groundbreaking! I wasn't here for all the dot-connecting breakthroughs made by this group so far, so it feels great to be part of it :) .

I'm with you there! It's a lot more interesting than chanting or navel gazing and has darned worthwhile results in real life!

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So... in just a quick question, just checking if I get what is basically going on here:

do I understand from this that when we all (or many of us) went into ketosis around last summer, we probably have not stayed in ketosis all the time since then? This was often because (for many of us) we let our protein intake get to high and the conversion to glucose stopped or slowed it? So now this Intermittent Fasting and such is necessary to heal mtDNA and ALSO is a good way to get back into ketosis as well?

I can only write a short note on my experience, I did recently some ketone tests again (with a blood meter) and it showed something with 1.2, 2.0 and 5 at different times on the day. So it can be said I was in ketosis more or less. The intermittent fasting could help out further more getting into full ketosis. But I don't the definition what is full ketosis and what not. So it is something to further improve the state of ketosis imo (with new knowledge), or kind of a kick-starter.

 

[Breton]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Same here, it was a choice between having big muscles to show off, or being skinny but feeling fantastic and realising my potential as a human being. Not much of a choice there! I may end up having both after my body comes completely into balance.

Adventure indeed, it's really fun to experiment. I mean, nobody else is doing this stuff, this could be totally groundbreaking! I wasn't here for all the dot-connecting breakthroughs made by this group so far, so it feels great to be part of it :) .

I'm with you there! It's a lot more interesting than chanting or navel gazing and has darned worthwhile results in real life!

Good point! Think of all those gurus out there chanting, navel gazing, and meditating for world peace, yet they do not even have enough knowledge to understand that they are eating poison, and never mind never having a clue about how to heal their body from a lifetime of eating incorrectly. It is amazing what pursuing true knowledge will bring!