Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I managed to do my workout today, but I admit that, though I feel well enough, I'm not a ball of fire and I tire easily.

I sat down to do the calculations because I know I'm not getting enough fat to meet the 3 to 1 ratio.

If I have my close-enough measure of protein, it will be about 4.5 ounces (I converted from grams). Well, obviously, any given piece of meat is not all protein so I might be able to eat a 6 to 8 oz piece of meat for my daily total, or 3 or 4 ounces at two meals. But that figure also means that I must consume about 13 ounces of fat!!!!!!!!! That is a cup and a half of fat.

Clearly, I have NOT been doing that even with all the ways and means we have been employing to get fat in the body.

The only thing I can think of is to make the bone broth, put it in the blender, put my allotment of fat in there, and just drink the darn stuff down along with a couple ox-bile capsules. The broth will make it palatable enough to get it down, I think. Of course, I could divide it up into three "big gulps" a day... use the bone broth as the carrier and put 4 ounces of fat in there. That might be the better option.

So, that's my plan for tomorrow. To drastically increase the fat and see if my energy gets a boost thereby. I'll report then.

 

[Foxx]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I managed to do my workout today, but I admit that, though I feel well enough, I'm not a ball of fire and I tire easily.

I sat down to do the calculations because I know I'm not getting enough fat to meet the 3 to 1 ratio.

If I have my close-enough measure of protein, it will be about 4.5 ounces (I converted from grams). Well, obviously, any given piece of meat is not all protein so I might be able to eat a 6 to 8 oz piece of meat for my daily total, or 3 or 4 ounces at two meals. But that figure also means that I must consume about 13 ounces of fat!!!!!!!!! That is a cup and a half of fat.

Clearly, I have NOT been doing that even with all the ways and means we have been employing to get fat in the body.

The only thing I can think of is to make the bone broth, put it in the blender, put my allotment of fat in there, and just drink the darn stuff down along with a couple ox-bile capsules. The broth will make it palatable enough to get it down, I think. Of course, I could divide it up into three "big gulps" a day... use the bone broth as the carrier and put 4 ounces of fat in there. That might be the better option.

So, that's my plan for tomorrow. To drastically increase the fat and see if my energy gets a boost thereby. I'll report then.

FWIW, I've been buying pork back fat from the pig farmer I buy from and frying it up and it's pretty great. I just salt it and let it cook until it's crispy or just about crispy and eat it with whatever protein source I'm eating. Since it's back fat, it stays solid and in one piece rather than just melting and I much prefer it to consuming a form of liquid or semi-solid fat. My farmer says that the leaf fat will just melt if cooked, so it makes great lard, but the back fat remains solid for a longer cooking time. It's a little like bacon, but with (as far as I'm aware) very little protein.

 

[Breton]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I managed to do my workout today, but I admit that, though I feel well enough, I'm not a ball of fire and I tire easily.

I sat down to do the calculations because I know I'm not getting enough fat to meet the 3 to 1 ratio.

If I have my close-enough measure of protein, it will be about 4.5 ounces (I converted from grams). Well, obviously, any given piece of meat is not all protein so I might be able to eat a 6 to 8 oz piece of meat for my daily total, or 3 or 4 ounces at two meals. But that figure also means that I must consume about 13 ounces of fat!!!!!!!!! That is a cup and a half of fat.

Clearly, I have NOT been doing that even with all the ways and means we have been employing to get fat in the body.

The only thing I can think of is to make the bone broth, put it in the blender, put my allotment of fat in there, and just drink the darn stuff down along with a couple ox-bile capsules. The broth will make it palatable enough to get it down, I think. Of course, I could divide it up into three "big gulps" a day... use the bone broth as the carrier and put 4 ounces of fat in there. That might be the better option.

So, that's my plan for tomorrow. To drastically increase the fat and see if my energy gets a boost thereby. I'll report then.

FWIW, I've been buying pork back fat from the pig farmer I buy from and frying it up and it's pretty great. I just salt it and let it cook until it's crispy or just about crispy and eat it with whatever protein source I'm eating. Since it's back fat, it stays solid and in one piece rather than just melting and I much prefer it to consuming a form of liquid or semi-solid fat. My farmer says that the leaf fat will just melt if cooked, so it makes great lard, but the back fat remains solid for a longer cooking time. It's a little like bacon, but with (as far as I'm aware) very little protein.

Yeah I have been doing the same. I don't fry the pork fat so much that it becomes just "cracklings" and lard, so that I can eat it as if it was on the meat when you would normally cook meat with the fat on it. And I still get lard for later, little by little. But I can't eat tons of it either at one time.

 

[Nienna]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I managed to do my workout today, but I admit that, though I feel well enough, I'm not a ball of fire and I tire easily.

I sat down to do the calculations because I know I'm not getting enough fat to meet the 3 to 1 ratio.

If I have my close-enough measure of protein, it will be about 4.5 ounces (I converted from grams). Well, obviously, any given piece of meat is not all protein so I might be able to eat a 6 to 8 oz piece of meat for my daily total, or 3 or 4 ounces at two meals. But that figure also means that I must consume about 13 ounces of fat!!!!!!!!! That is a cup and a half of fat.

I down-loaded this a while ago. I think the link was given in the Life Without Bread thread. It's helped me to figure out the protein/fat ratio in meats. (It has protein, fat and calories for most meat cuts (and other foods) along with the carbs and fiber.)

http://www.atkins.com/Program/Carb-Counter.aspx

Don't know if you have seen this yet so thought I put it in here.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I managed to do my workout today, but I admit that, though I feel well enough, I'm not a ball of fire and I tire easily.

I sat down to do the calculations because I know I'm not getting enough fat to meet the 3 to 1 ratio.

If I have my close-enough measure of protein, it will be about 4.5 ounces (I converted from grams). Well, obviously, any given piece of meat is not all protein so I might be able to eat a 6 to 8 oz piece of meat for my daily total, or 3 or 4 ounces at two meals. But that figure also means that I must consume about 13 ounces of fat!!!!!!!!! That is a cup and a half of fat.

Clearly, I have NOT been doing that even with all the ways and means we have been employing to get fat in the body.

The only thing I can think of is to make the bone broth, put it in the blender, put my allotment of fat in there, and just drink the darn stuff down along with a couple ox-bile capsules. The broth will make it palatable enough to get it down, I think. Of course, I could divide it up into three "big gulps" a day... use the bone broth as the carrier and put 4 ounces of fat in there. That might be the better option.

So, that's my plan for tomorrow. To drastically increase the fat and see if my energy gets a boost thereby. I'll report then.

I still can't quite get my head around the fat issue ...

From what I have learned so far, when you reduce the amount of carbs and protein sufficiently you go into ketosis. While in ketosis fat can be mobilized from fat stores, because insulin is down-regulated. So the body will cover the amount of energy it needs to function from the fat stores. The amount of fat ingested is added to the mix and then constitutes the "total amount" available to the body for energy/ other purposes.

That all means for me that the 3:1 fat ratio is used as a guideline for people who don't want to lose weight. If you want to lose weight, you reduce your fat intake, if you want to increase your weight, you increase your fat intake.

I know this sounds a bit mechanistic and simplified, but to my current understanding this is the gist of it.

Or not ... ?

The other issue is the water issue.

i used to diligently drink my 2 liters of water per day. With the consequence that I had to get up two times every night. After I read "The Fiber Menace" which goes into some detail about where the notion is from that we need to drink around 2 liters of water I stopped doing that and only drink when thirsty. I especially limit my water intake after dinner. For me that has made a big difference and I feel much better.

Again here I think that this might be a personal issue and that everyone needs to find out for himself what the optimal water intake is.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm loving the new direction this diet is taking! I don't want to count chickens before they're hatched, but this feels to me like this is another leap forward!

I've done two fasting days so far. The first was about 36 hours and was not pleasant. I was achy and a little cranky all day. The hunger was never too extreme, but it tested my willpower more than once. I was supplementing the fast with periodic spoonfuls of coconut oil and had a "dinner" of a small amount of broth with fat. That night I felt nautious and had to have some peppermint tea to settle my stomach (too much fat, maybe?). That night I was restless and achy and did not sleep well. The next day I had my normal breakfast (I've been doing a reduced protein breakfast for some months now) of 5 pieces of bacon with a lot of extra lard. I usually have about 125 ml or so of liquid fat in a small bowl that I dip my bacon into and then slurp the remainder down at the end of the meal. Breakfast went down with no issues.

The second fast, which I just broke at lunch today was a little smoother. I was still hungry during it, but it wasn't difficult to think about other things. I think I'll always try to fast on days I work since I'm too occupied to think much about it. Returned to normal (reduced protein) eating without any digestive problems. I'm finding the reduced protein eating is not leaving me hungry in the least, like I had assumed it would.

Here's my thinking on protein portions. My weight is a little over 170 lbs. That's roughly 77 kg.
77 kg x 1.5 grams/kg body weight per day = 115.5 grams of protein per day.
Divide that 115 grams between 3 meals (any day I work I still eat 3 meals, even though, on my mostly inactive days off, I generally only have 2) that equals 38.5g of protein per meal.

Going from the link that Ailen posted a few pages back, 1 oz of cooked meat equals about 7g of protein. So I figure that 5 oz of meat will get me 35g of protein. Then I just eat fat to satiation. Looking at the pdf Nienna Eluch just linked to (thanks for that, Nienna!), it looks like, in some cases, I might actually be under-shooting my protein. It says 6 oz of beef shortribs, which happens to be what I just had for dinner with the fatty braising broth laddled over it, is only 24 grams of protein. I could have had another couple of bites!

I'm actually weighing my cooked meat right now, which is a little annoying, but I figure after enough time I'll actually be able to eyeball it. No idea if I'm getting 3:1 ratio of fat to protein. Actually, I have a question about that figure - can anyone tell me where it came from? I haven't made it through all the studies posted in the thread yet, so I may not have got to it, but can someone let me know which study it's in? Is that 3:1 in grams or calories? Because that would make a big difference.

For now, I'm just eating my maximum protein and eating fat to satiety. I'm hoping it doesn't come down to force-feeding myself fat because that has never gone well in the past for me.

The only thing I haven't started is the resistance exercise. I'm still considering how to approach this - join a gym? Take kettlebell classes? Push-ups and sit-ups at home? I need to get on this soon.

FWIW, I've been buying pork back fat from the pig farmer I buy from and frying it up and it's pretty great. I just salt it and let it cook until it's crispy or just about crispy and eat it with whatever protein source I'm eating. Since it's back fat, it stays solid and in one piece rather than just melting and I much prefer it to consuming a form of liquid or semi-solid fat. My farmer says that the leaf fat will just melt if cooked, so it makes great lard, but the back fat remains solid for a longer cooking time. It's a little like bacon, but with (as far as I'm aware) very little protein.

Just so you know, that fatback is not pure fat. It's a protein matrix that holds onto fat. If you were to render that entirely, all the fat would render out and you'd be left with protein (cracklins). There's no such thing as hard fat that doesn't melt, it's simply the type and amount of protein content that makes it more resistant to heat. I think it should probably be treated the same as bacon as far as protein content (although maybe adjusted to a little less protein than bacon, I'm not sure). Still a great source of fat, though!

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I still can't quite get my head around the fat issue ...

From what I have learned so far, when you reduce the amount of carbs and protein sufficiently you go into ketosis. While in ketosis fat can be mobilized from fat stores, because insulin is down-regulated. So the body will cover the amount of energy it needs to function from the fat stores. The amount of fat ingested is added to the mix and then constitutes the "total amount" available to the body for energy/ other purposes.

That all means for me that the 3:1 fat ratio is used as a guideline for people who don't want to lose weight. If you want to lose weight, you reduce your fat intake, if you want to increase your weight, you increase your fat intake.

I know this sounds a bit mechanistic and simplified, but to my current understanding this is the gist of it.

Or not ... ?

I think you may be right. My formula may be for those who do not want to lose any weight. And, as Dugdeep has pointed out, I can probably have a bit more meat than I calculated here at my desk without referring to the charts. We have a couple carb counter books and a huge scientific printout that tells us everything that practically every know food contains by weight.

So I guess that folks like me with some extra fat have to tough it out, just get enough protein and SOME fat and let the body take the rest from its stores.

The skinnies, on the other hand, probably really need to carefully get their daily allotment of fat.

 

[jhonny]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I remember what Psyche said to me in Barcelona during the EE course:... When you eat the food that your body needs, i.e. enought fat, meat and less carbs,and having habits such as a good breakfast, your body will get the accurate weight....to me happened so: My height is 1m77 and I weighed 90 kilos(more or less), now it is 74 kilos and I must say that I feel the difference especially in my physical energy.


Mod note: edited personal name and left forum name

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I remember what Gaby(Psyche) said to me in Barcelona during the EE course:... When you eat the food that your body needs, i.e. enought fat, meat and less carbs,and having habits such as a good breakfast, your body will get the accurate weight....to me happened so: My height is 1m77 and I weighed 90 kilos(more or less), now it is 74 kilos and I must say that I feel the difference especially in my physical energy.

That's true enough for people without damaged/mutated mtDNA and the conditions related to energy production which are legion.

 

[sebbe]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Actually, since several month, i am around 0-10 g of carb/day. Very often, around 0.

I tried strip keto-diastix ( which measures ketons and glucose) since 15 days, 3 time/days. I'm always between 4 and 16 mmol/L.
I feel good with my energy, but it is not the "fire from within".

I can reasonably think i'm in ketosis.

After all the posts i've read and my with my own experience, i see i don't count no more the fat. I know now ( and perhaps because i have one year behind me of fat diet) if i eat too much fat, i have 2 symptoms : nausea and loose stools. So the "game" for me is to adjust this to my body.

For proteins, it is more subtle. I am beetween 60 and 100 g of meat /meal ( so between 16 and 27 g prot./meal ). If i eat more than 100 g of meat/meal for a long period, the fat under my skin grows a little, and it stops. My body (or is it the brain?) seems to go slowly.
The energy is the same.

Under 100 g of meat/meal, i begin to loose fat under skin, slowly.
If i reduce around 60 g of meat/meal (around 16g of prot.), there is something who accelerates in my body : the skin becomes very thin quickly, no more fat under. I have an normal energy, but the body seems better work, more efficient.

I wonder why the energy seems to be the same.
So i think perhaps, after to have regulate the amount of fat and proteins with the body's signals, the quality of energy comes from 2 things : defficiencies (for ex : minerals, vitamins etc) or not defficiencies, and the quality of body exercises.

For example, like i said in another post, if i forget potassium, i feel terribly tired and my brain is in a fog. Even if my consumption of fat and prot. is good.

For having bodybuilding during 20 years, i know too exercises can give to the body differents sort of energies. Good exercises give a sort of impetus to the body and the mind, not exhaustion.
When Gedgaudas talks about 10 to 20 mn of exercises/day, i think she's perfectly right. Intensity seems to be the key to have a good energy too.

It could be very useful to read "Body by science" by John R. Little ( Here is a preview : http://mikael.jansson.be/log/review-body-by-science)

 

[Scottie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Who knows what will happen tomorrow!

Tomorrow has arrived... And oh boy, my intestines are immaculately clean today! This time, it certainly was not because of eating too much fat. And it was much quicker and less miserable than last time (um, so far).

Thus, I have a new theory: something else is going on.

Maybe it's detox, or maybe I have a whole lot of dead cells that are looking for a way out.

I dunno what's going on, but my plan is to carry on, and when I'm actually really hungry (like yesterday) do the "fat thing", along with a moderate increase in fat consumption at dinner (my breakfasts are already plenty fatty).

As for the 3:1 fat thing, I was under the impression that it is in terms of calories, not mass. If the body derives so much more energy from fat as it does from protein or carbs, then tons of fat should not be required. Or maybe I'm missing something.

Also, I think the "7g of protein in 1oz (28g) of meat" thing is a good general rule, but it can depend on a lot things. I found a bunch more figures for ground pork and pork sausages, for example, and it seems it is generally a mixture of muscle, fat, and "other stuff" from the animal, plus typically 50% water. This figure coincides with the stuff Chu posted if it's the same doc I'm thinking of. The figures I found for ground pork all agreed, and they were basically:

50% water
25% protein
22% fat
3% minerals and other goodies (there are a LOT of minerals and goodies in pork!)

It's true that muscle in most mammals is about 75% water. But then, it appears that figure can vary depending on a number of factors, not the least of which is the quality of the meat, type of meat, what the animal was fed, growth hormones, etc.

I used to think that a steak was a steak, and it was all protein except for the fatty bits and other connective tissue, but apparently this is totally wrong from what I have found. Even lean beef contains a lot of water. And that explains why you can take raw beef, put it in a dehydrator, and you end up with a crunchy treat that is way smaller than what you started with. I'm not sure why this didn't occur to me earlier, but there you have it: You can't dehydrate something that isn't hydrated!

It's been a really interesting learning experience!

So, do check the tables and/or search the net to verify how much protein you're actually getting. Too much, and you're not getting the full benefits of ketosis. Too little, and supposedly your body may decide to convert some of its own protein reserves into fuel - at least from what I understand. And as for fat, well, I'm still trying to find the optimal amount. Part of the problem might be that the optimal amount varies depending on what your body is doing while in full ketosis.

At this point, I can't really say that I have any idea if what I'm doing is the "best way" for me, or even that upping my protein was what caused me to feel better. But I CAN say that I feel generally in a better mood, I have energy, I'm not craving carbs like I used to, and I'm certainly not suffering. Yeah, the housecleaning episodes are a bit unpleasant, but this last episode seems to be less severe than the first one. Oh, and I sleep really well.

Another thing I thought I would mention is heat...

It's hot here right now, and for the past several days, I have been a water monster. Obviously, when one has diarrhea, one needs more fluids, but this is way beyond that, and the diarrhea is not a constant thing like when one is ill.

But more than that, I seem to have very little capacity to cope with the heat first thing in the morning only. It's almost like I get heat stroke, but without the dizziness and passing out. Maybe the little mitochondria are churning away or something.

In any case, the experiment continues...

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I had about a minute of dizziness this morning after breakfast. It was "inside the head" dizziness, not vertigo-like dizziness. It passed, but it made me wonder. Obviously, stuff really is going on in the body/brain.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Had a rotten day today - it's actually my "day off" (only had a breakfast of one piece of bacon, some lard and a cup of bone broth).
Pains in the body and generally no energy (although contributing to this was a few nights of interrupted sleep due to professional requirements).
But not feeling hungry at all ...

Have adopted the following schedule for now:

Day off:
- Light breakfast (as described above)
- Tea and water for the rest of the day

Day on:
- Breakfast as described above
- No lunch (or a bone broth if hungry)
- Maybe a few nuts before dinner (macadamias)
- Meat/ veggies for dinner

I keep the fat a bit lower for now as I put on weight when I was going full bore on butter ... what a journey!

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I had about a minute of dizziness this morning after breakfast. It was "inside the head" dizziness, not vertigo-like dizziness. It passed, but it made me wonder. Obviously, stuff really is going on in the body/brain.

Funny you should mention that. I'm not sure if it's related, but for weeks now I've been having this strange thing happening "behind my eyes". It's a little hard to explain, but when I close my eyes the muscles behind the eyes are spasming. This usually happens in the morning, but sometimes late in the evening, too. At first, I thought it was eye strain from too much reading, but this thing happens on days of little or no reading, too. The spasming doesn't feel uncomfortable. Actually, it feels like something is adjusting and afterwards my eyes feel more relaxed.

---
This biphasic sleeping thing is very interesting! I've been having exactly this kind of sleeping pattern for months now. It's comforting to know that this is not that uncommon. Yesterday I fell asleep before 9PM and woke up at 2:30AM. Then I made breakfast, did some reading etc. At 6:30AM I had my "second sleep" and woke up at 8.00.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Oh boy! This thread is moving fast! I just finished catching up. Sorry for the next multiple posts, but I'd like to give an update, reply to a few posts and post the links to all the new articles we've been reading, with selected quotes. I'll try to do that over the next two days (Laura said we would do it earlier, so I apologize for the delay, but some of us here have been canning and doing house work like crazy, now that we have more energy and that so much needs to be done)

Update:

Atreides and I are on our 9th day since the IF, I believe. We've done 4 workouts, and are keeping our protein content low, 0 carbs (Atreides has 1/2 tsp of xylitol a day).

After the 4th day, it got a bit harder. We both had the hip, back and leg pain that Laura and Perceval described. Ours stools were quite messed up too, now going more normal (off and on). He seems to need a bit more protein, and I need more fat. So each one is adjusting things as we go.

Overall, it has already been quite good! Atreides has been doing physical work ALL day long for a week now, non-stop. He had never had so much energy in his life. And I continue being active all day too, with steady energy. Sometimes I feel I'm about to get tired, but then start doing things and nothing can stop me!

Another benefit so far (this is for women) is that for the first time in my life, not only did I not have ANY PMS symptoms (usually I get swelling and light cramps a week before my period starts), but also my period started and I have 0 cramps, which is SO good!! During the first and second day, I always suffer from bad cramps. Now, nothing, only a headache. :D

We have both been doing cold baths and showers every day, trying different ways. We now can stay in a cold bath (approx. 20 degrees Celcius) for about 10-15 minutes (Atreides stands it longer). Our body temperature drops to about 20 degrees. And later, we feel great!!

So, that's the gist of it. We eat the same as Laura and Mr. Scott described. Paté with lard, bone broth, and a tiny bit of very fatty meat.

He has lost almost 10 kgs, and like Laura, he managed to go over that plateau below which before it was hard to go. He's developping a lot more muscle.

I lost 3 kgs and then stopped, which is good because I didn't want to lose that much. I sort of look thinner, but most of all, I see more muscle developping. And I can carry a lot more weight than before.

So, so far so good! With ups and downs, of course, but I think it's important to give it at least 6 weeks.