Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

We'll get them listed with links as soon as the canning of more liver pate is done for the day. I tell ya, that stuff is pure gold! Mix it with some lard, roll it up in a lettuce leaf, and it's heaven!

do you cann the already processed/cooked pate or do you put it (the grunded meat mix with the lard ) raw into the jars and let it be cooked by the canner?

We cook it before hand. It's not that you must do that, but we like to add spices and taste it before canning it, so in order to do that, you need to cook it.

The pate is made by getting a whole load of pork livers chopped up with some other really cheap fatty part of the pork, then we chop up a bunch of bacon and mix so it is about 5 to 1 pork liver mix to bacon, chop up onions and a little garlic, and cook all that together in a big pot until it is lightly done, onions cooked. Of course, salt and pepper is added. Then some seasoning which consists of nutmeg, I think (Ailen and Andromeda will have to speak about that when they get a minute). Extra lard (freshly rendered) is added, and the whole thing is put through the food processor and then poured into a big bowl. It is kind of sloppy at that point because the lard is very liquid. Then it is tested for taste, adjusted, and then spooned into jars, rims cleaned carfully, seals put on, lids tightened, and put in the canner for processing.

This stuff is so fantastically delicious... When we open a jar, we often take a bunch out and mix it with even more fresh lard to make it even fattier as a way of getting more fat palatably. It is divine on a lettuce leaf rolled up, glopped on about anything else you eat, or straight out of the jar with a fork!

The full recipe is here:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,21014.msg359392.html#msg359392

 

[seek10]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Who knows what will happen tomorrow!

Tomorrow has arrived... And oh boy, my intestines are immaculately clean today! This time, it certainly was not because of eating too much fat. And it was much quicker and less miserable than last time (um, so far).

Thus, I have a new theory: something else is going on.

Maybe it's detox, or maybe I have a whole lot of dead cells that are looking for a way out.

I dunno what's going on, but my plan is to carry on, and when I'm actually really hungry (like yesterday) do the "fat thing", along with a moderate increase in fat consumption at dinner (my breakfasts are already plenty fatty).

As for the 3:1 fat thing, I was under the impression that it is in terms of calories, not mass. If the body derives so much more energy from fat as it does from protein or carbs, then tons of fat should not be required. Or maybe I'm missing something.

Also, I think the "7g of protein in 1oz (28g) of meat" thing is a good general rule, but it can depend on a lot things. I found a bunch more figures for ground pork and pork sausages, for example, and it seems it is generally a mixture of muscle, fat, and "other stuff" from the animal, plus typically 50% water. This figure coincides with the stuff Chu posted if it's the same doc I'm thinking of. The figures I found for ground pork all agreed, and they were basically:

50% water
25% protein
22% fat
3% minerals and other goodies (there are a LOT of minerals and goodies in pork!)

..
It's been a really interesting learning experience!

So, do check the tables and/or search the net to verify how much protein you're actually getting. Too much, and you're not getting the full benefits of ketosis. Too little, and supposedly your body may decide to convert some of its own protein reserves into fuel - at least from what I understand. And as for fat, well, I'm still trying to find the optimal amount. Part of the problem might be that the optimal amount varies depending on what your body is doing while in full ketosis.


In any case, the experiment continues...

I use this USDA software. It has all the details of Foods, nutrients. Good for rough estimate. of course , environmental conditions can make nutrients vary.

_http://pc-search-sr23.software.informer.com/

After consistently taking little sweet potato, my blood sugars back to normal, though I reduced carbs. Yesterday I took large quantity of fat with some ox bile. No hunger and no food for last 18 hours and blood sugar is normal too. Sounding like a warmup for me. I see my ketone stick jumped from 15 mg/dL range to 40 mg/dL . In fact , before I started sweet potato , my ketone range used to be 80mg/dL range as my entire food consists of meat protein and fat( little lazy to cook carbs). I will go for some bicycling to give some stretching.

 

[Foxx]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just so you know, that fatback is not pure fat. It's a protein matrix that holds onto fat. If you were to render that entirely, all the fat would render out and you'd be left with protein (cracklins). There's no such thing as hard fat that doesn't melt, it's simply the type and amount of protein content that makes it more resistant to heat. I think it should probably be treated the same as bacon as far as protein content (although maybe adjusted to a little less protein than bacon, I'm not sure). Still a great source of fat, though!

Yes, I was aware of this, but thanks for pointing it out! I found this site:

_http://www.calorie-counter.net/bacon-pork-calories/pork-backfat.htm

which says that the protein content of back fat is ~3%, which is around what I was guestimating, so I'd say pretty close to negligible.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

After 10 days of fasting, slowly in the first days, I now wake-up in the morning earlier than usual without feeling tired as I could do some weeks ago.

[...]

Before starting KD and fasting my weight was already enough low: 48kg. After these ten days, I lost 800g. It is not alarming for now, and maybe I can consider at the light of researchs made here, that it could be enough good after all.

So I continue the KD with a little bit more fat. I usually take some fish-oil in the morning and will continue while I also took note about the complements. I gonna stop them for a while and see what is happening. I will report in some days to let you know the results.

I feel better than all these previous decades, from I was a teenager. Actually, my body today looks the same than I had as a teenager, before to be pregnant the first time I was. My muscles are visible again, without making special exercices while I started to do some these last days, with barbells.

Well, you probably weren't in such a bad shap to start with. But 10 days weren't necessary, and could actually cause harm to some people with more delicate conditions.

I suggest you re-read the following post by Laura(http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.msg361611.html#msg361611):

Odyssey, I guess you aren't really understanding that this is not supposed to be full bore fasting, but just maybe 48 hours at most to get the ketosis going and keep it going WHILE EATING but restricting protein so that it won't be converted to glucose. Full fasting only turns your body's "conserve" thing on, it doesn't necessrily do that much good to persist.

And the Intermittent Fasting can be as simple as just cutting way back on your consumption on those days, not fasting entirely!

Ya'll please read stuff carefully before experimenting. No reason to be more uncomfortable than need be! Try the slow and easy way first, it usually works. Most people here in the house have gone into ketosis (from the paleo diet) after just 18 hours of fasting or so. That's like, not eating after 5 pm on one day, going through the night and then being able to start with fatty bone broth at noon the next day. That's not so hard! And it seems that getting something fatty in there when you are on the edge of ketosis helps it along!

 

[Mikey]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Report about my experiment:

This is my 6th day of protein restriction (less than 100 grams per day for my 76 kg of body weight) and quasi-zero carb consumption. I started with a 24 h fast to kick off the transition. I've been in ++++ ketosis (8 to 16 mmol/l) for every single day. I'm feeling very weak physically (especially my legs) even though my brain seems to work just fine. When having bacon or patties in front of me, I'm having extreme "protein craving" and would love to devour it all. But I'm strict and only eat fatty liver pate (70% lard) to still my hunger. (And boy, does fat a good job at stilling hunger!)

This transition (protein restriction) feels exactly as the last transition 1 year ago (carbohydrate restriction): I have diarrhea, feel nauseated after eating, no energy, and need at least one nap to make it through the day. This tells me that I have been living as an "indirect sugar addict" via excess protein that is converted into glucose.

However, my sleep is excellent and my mood is generally good. I even did some serious garden work every day, plus pushing exercises once.

I'm not very thirsty and stopped drinking black tea, only water and peppermint tea. I'm going to add more salt to whatever I eat, so that I have natural thirst without forcing me to drink.

Smoking doesn't taste as good as it did before and I usually stop a cigarette half-way since I have 'enough'.

Just imagine the extreme cost reduction that this new way of nourishment allows!

As I'm writing this post, I have more energy than in the last 6 days. I could go up the stairs rather quickly (2 stairs at a time), even though I had only 20 grams of protein today. The other days I had to use the handle to drag me up. So, this is good news! :) Let's see what happens in the next days.

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

This sounds all really interesting. But I also must admit it is a bit overwhelming. Cause every change is again lots of time consuming, especially with an auto-immune desease to get things fixed again. So it is not a fast(ing) way in a sense.

With the fat-intake I'm not sure, if more fat can only be eaten until the body is in full ketosis. Cause yesterday I had the whole day stomach pain, couldn't sleep etc. Also when I only ate about half a butter for the hole day. Other fat my body refuses like lard or fluid fat. The best way for me is making buttered tea where I could drink half a butter, well at some days.

I will see if I could do fasting, but must have some quiet time, since everything around me is on the move. And one day could be possible, two days the risk is increasing of having to take carbs. Also when I consider taking a pump again, but also this could get difficult adjusting the insulin rates again, so that everything could go smooth.

Another question would be how to measure the fat/protein intake a person needs? I only remember these complicated formulas in the other thread but could never figure it out.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

This sounds all really interesting. But I also must admit it is a bit overwhelming. Cause every change is again lots of time consuming, especially with an auto-immune desease to get things fixed again. So it is not a fast(ing) way in a sense.

With the fat-intake I'm not sure, if more fat can only be eaten until the body is in full ketosis. Cause yesterday I had the whole day stomach pain, couldn't sleep etc. Also when I only ate about half a butter for the hole day. Other fat my body refuses like lard or fluid fat. The best way for me is making buttered tea where I could drink half a butter, well at some days.

I will see if I could do fasting, but must have some quiet time, since everything around me is on the move. And one day could be possible, two days the risk is increasing of having to take carbs. Also when I consider taking a pump again, but also this could get difficult adjusting the insulin rates again, so that everything could go smooth.

Another question would be how to measure the fat/protein intake a person needs? I only remember these complicated formulas in the other thread but could never figure it out.

Gawan, I don't think you need to be fasting at ALL! Fuggedaboutit! In your shoes, I would just make sure my carbs are zero, eat the weight requirement for protein, and sufficient fat and a little more. Use HCL Betaine and/or ox-bile to help with the digestion part and only gradually increase the fat.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Another question would be how to measure the fat/protein intake a person needs? I only remember these complicated formulas in the other thread but could never figure it out.

In your case, I would do it very gradually. You could start with 2 grams (or a bit more) or protein per kilo of body weight.
If you weight, say, 60kgs, do 60 x 1,5 grams=90 grams. That's your protein.
For fat, try to eat as much as possible in the form of broth and lard, and fatty paté.
0 carbs.

With time, you can go down to 1.5 grams of protein per kilo, or less, as long as you keep the fat going. You don't want to eat too much protein, because if you do, it will get converted into sugar, but see first what gets you into ketosis.

The only reason for fasting is that in some cases it puts one into ketosis a bit faster, but since you've been doing the diet so well, you might not even need it at all, and that way you prevent any risks.

To see what the fat/protein content is, and calculate (roughly, no need to obsess about it) how much you need, you can refer back to the table I linked to:


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CFYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2F64.78.32.129%2Fdocuments%2Ffactsheets%2FProtein.pdf&ei=-7omULnWMMLPhAfxtIDoBw&usg=AFQjCNF7Yc8lu784kDDjPt17O2FnOmo3hw&sig2=GwTPJve9tlu7NMXGwA9pCA

We know that one slice of bacon is 2 grams of protein, 3 of fat. The rest, you might need to guesstimate according to the type of meat you get, but if just by looking at it, you see it is at least half fat, half protein, and you add a little lard, that's good.

My 2 cents.

 

[liffy]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The last two weeks I've been doing a few alterations in my diet. I have been eating breakfast and an early dinner, with a protein total in grams slightly lower than my bodyweight (75kgs) .

Carb consumption depends on my activity that day, but generally stay quite low. (I do a small sweet potato with dinner after working out with weights, and mushrooms/onions/salad/nuts as sides for my meat/eggs when more sedentary).

I'm not really sure about the fat amount that I take in, but it's less than I used to, and my weight is rising, without adding any bodyfat (which is my intention). Today I was working out and had a quite high energy level, as well as a proper 'pump'; meaning that there is a heightened amount of blood flowing to the muscles in use, which is something I haven't had in this way, since before I lowered my carbs.

One thing that might have contributed to this is that I've started drinking my homemade seaweed tea, which seems to give an extra boost over time.

I usually do the most of my carbs for dinner, which works out great, since the amount is so small that having it in one go doesn't have any negative effects, as well as dinner being at 4 o'clock. This also seems to contribute to the ketosis working properly, as others have discovered here; when breaking a fast (18 hours for my part), with a fatty meal.

 

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So the last couple of days has been interesting. I still wake up in the middle of the night but am still generally tired enough to fall back asleep until 5am or so. As others have stated, I've also been very tired/sleepy in the middle of the day but usually have some bone broth and that levels me out a bit so I'm not sleepy but not hugely energetic either.

Yesterday and today I've been sneezing which for me at this point seems to be an indicator of detox reactions. I've been on broth/fat with maybe 5 -10 ounces of meat per day and lard tea - I'm just doing this for 2 days to see if there are any die off symptoms and will up the protein tomorrow.

There has been some discomfort, currently around the lower back on the right side and around the hip joints (which has been my usual symptom when I was lowering carb intake) so something is going on - it may be residual low grade inflammation. My ovaries are also not very 'happy' but that was also a symptom I had when lowering carbs and that was the most persistent thing to heal.

What's very interesting is that I've upped my fat intake quite a bit and have had no diarrhea which was not my usual reaction in the past so perhaps my body has gotten used to it? Dunno, we'll see what happens.

 

[QuantumLogic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Do most of you have Microsoft Office or OpenOffice? I am creating a spreadsheet where you enter your body weight in KG and the rest of the calculations are done for you. Also, in PBPM it was stated that any protein over 25-30 grams in one meal is converted to carbs/glucose. Is this still the consensus, or have other studies proven it incorrect? It is necessary to know this for the chart I'm attempting to make. One thing in setting it up that I'm finding is the total calorie count is rather low if carb intake is zero, so I'm wondering if extra fat intake (9 calories/gram) is necessary to adjust total calories(energy) to an acceptable level so one does not feel run down.

Since this is work-in-progress, please let me know what calculations, if any, you would like to see in the chart.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

For those who have started the protein restrictiong/IF, but not the workout (Dugdeep, SeekinTruth...), here is something you might want to read. You actually need to read the entire paper in order to understand the specific terms if you are a genetics ignorant (guilty here!):

From: Mitochondrial energetics and therapeutics

Exercise therapy and diet.

Mitochondrial diseases are generally associated with exercise intolerance, and exercise training is beneficial to the treatment of mitochondrial diseases. Muscle deconditioning in response to inactivity and unloading is common in patients with mitochondrial disease. Promotion of aerobic training with moderate exercise can attenuate or avoid this deconditioning and thus be beneficial to patients (280).

Exercise-based treatment strategies can be subdivided into two categories: endurance exercise and resistance exercise. Endurance training
is known to induce OXPHOS and antioxidant capacity and is expected to modulate exercise intolerance in patients. The effects of aerobic
training in a group of 20 patients carrying well characterized mtDNA molecular defects were investigated over a 12-week period, and the approach
had beneficial effects (281). In another study (280) of eight patients with single largescale mtDNA deletions, the subjects showed significant improvement after 14 weeks of aerobic training. Oxygen utilization and skeletal muscle oxygen extraction, peak capacity to do work, and submaximal exercise tolerance were all increased. However, detraining resulted in a loss of these physiological benefits, whereas another round of 14 weeks of training for a subset of patients maintained those individuals’ beneficial adaptations (280). Both studies showed
that aerobic training is well tolerated and safe for patients, but the investigators observed no change in mtDNA copy number.

Resistance exercise activates the proliferation of satellite cells in skeletal muscle as a consequence of muscle fiber injury. The level of mutant mtDNA in satellite cells is generally lower than in mature muscle fibers. Hence, fusion of satellite cells shifts the heteroplasmic level toward the wild-type mtDNAs, leading to improvement in patient OXPHOS capacity.

In a case study of a patient harboring a tRNA mutation, significant changes in mutant load and muscle morphology were induced by either
eccentric or concentric resistance exercise training (282). In another recent study, a group of eight patients carrying large-scale mtDNA
deletions underwent resistance exercise testing during 12 weeks; the patients showed significant therapeutic benefits and a reduced proportion
of mutant mtDNAs (283).

As an alternative, although riskier, approach to exercise, skeletal muscle may be partially damaged by bupivacaine injection. This damage
could induce satellite cells with reduced mtDNA mutant loads to fuse with the muscle fibers and reduce heteroplasmy (284).

There are other remarks in that paper about the difference betwwen endurance exercise and resistance exercise: The first one increases OXPHOS (oxidative phosphorylation), which is good, but not in excess and although it provides us with more energy, it doesn't actually heal the DNA, while the second actually has the deepest effects at the mitochondrial level, as described in the quote above. Or so I understand.

I think that a clue for us here, once again, is that it points out to the possibility of reducing the mutant mtDNA, therefore allowing for the "wild" (good) DNA to increase, therefore perhaps actually being one of the things we have been missing until now with the diet. Basically, all autoinmune diseases seem to stem from this damaged/mutant mitochondria. If we manage to repair it, could this be at least one of the things that lead us to "The Path of Transformation"? To a healthier life, most likely, and that's already not bad at all, I would say. ;)

 

[whitecoast]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just finished reading this thread... glad to hear everyone's pumped about protein restriction and all that. It's been kind of difficult for me. I'd have a steak for lunch, plus some mushrooms and greens, only to find myself in a massive energy lapse two hours later. The only time this didn't occur was when I had some qinoa on the side too. This leads me to think that my protein intake has been pushing me out of ketosis for the most part. So paying greater attention to my protein intake, while still applying fat liberally, should help take care of that.

I had an experience with keto/fasting for a few days back in April at a monastery I visited. Most people there were vegetarians so I resolved to just bring my own food (ghee and pork fat with a small bit of buckwheat). Since eating in the afternoon/evening was discouraged, a 7am breakfast and 11am lunch gave us a 20 hour fast every single night. Eating almost nothing but fat (and the odd avocado) during this time, I felt extremely energetic and focused. Having nothing to do but meditate and practice eiriu eolas for four days was purely icing on the cake. :D

 

[Beau]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well I'm not doing any protein restriction yet and I certainly am not doing 3-1 fat ratio but still wanted to report on the things I am going through with mostly 0 carbs over the last 2+ weeks. I haven't had any issues with cramping. I have had a few small headaches that get alleviated when I eat some salt. Mainly I am dealing with lack of sleep and an increased heartbeat. With sleep, I've only been able to sleep for 3 or 4 hours before I wake up wide awake and it usually takes at least an hour to fall back asleep. I'm not tired when I wake up, actually I'm rather alert. Sometimes I can fall back asleep but it's usually for an hour or two and then I'm awake again and even then it's not really a deep sleep. My deepest sleep is right when I fall asleep for about 3 hours and in the early mornings if I can fall back asleep. I'm really trying to figure out the increased heart rate, it's making me feel a little over-excited, almost like I've drank coffee. Maybe that's just the extra energy from going mostly 0 carbs. I did re-introduce onions first after a week and a half at 0 carb and then mushrooms yesterday but it didn't seem to help with restlessness at night. Taking magnesium twice a day, Vitamin C throughout the day with water and GABA with B6 at night along with melatonin but I'm still waking up wide awake like my body doesn't need any more sleep than a few hours. I'm not dragging during the day either, I feel fine until around 9 when I start to get tired and usually in bed by 10-11.

I'm working on getting more fat into the diet and lowering the protein as well. My appetite is a lot smaller than it used to be, so I'm hoping that getting some pate and bone broth going will mean less of a need to eat protein when the hunger does actually strike. That should be taken care of by next week. I'm hoping to see some change in how my body feels during the day but right now I have almost an excited feel and it's even like that when I wake up in the middle of the night. Not sure if upping carbs would make a difference there, but I do have the onions and mushrooms which upped it a little but didn't really change how I felt, although I was happy I didn't have any reaction to either since I love them both. But mainly am wondering about the heart rate being higher than normal, it's darn near pounding out of my chest at times.

 

[Foxx]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm working on getting more fat into the diet and lowering the protein as well. My appetite is a lot smaller than it used to be, so I'm hoping that getting some pate and bone broth going will mean less of a need to eat protein when the hunger does actually strike. That should be taken care of by next week. I'm hoping to see some change in how my body feels during the day but right now I have almost an excited feel and it's even like that when I wake up in the middle of the night. Not sure if upping carbs would make a difference there, but I do have the onions and mushrooms which upped it a little but didn't really change how I felt, although I was happy I didn't have any reaction to either since I love them both. But mainly am wondering about the heart rate being higher than normal, it's darn near pounding out of my chest at times.

I've also had this for some time and have tried a number of things, but still have no idea what the cause is. My resting pulse rate is around 80 bpm, which feels high to me, but my blood pressure is somewhere between 100-110 over ~60.

Right now my next test is to start exercising as my days are quite sedentary and so I'm thinking that may be the cause. I just got a kettlebell (anyone looking for kettlebells in the US: check ebay--they had the cheapest I could find) and after recovering from a hike I did a couple of days ago, I'm going to start the exercises and see how it affects my heart rate.

I'm pretty sure I also still have some adrenal issues, so my heart problem could be different from yours.

FWIW