Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I also wonder if the DNA changing effects of the KD might not leave a gap at times before other systems come online, during which viruses can invade.

Sorry, Laura, but I am not sure if I could follow your train of thought.

Did you mean that we can institute a KD, but that transformation of all the appropriate metabolic and genetic make-up will take much more time, until the KD becomes truly protective, during which time we are vulnerable to viruses?

Pretty much what I meant.

There's also a possibility that KD could turn ON some viruses and one might get flu-like symptoms during the transition/upregulation.

Another possibility: you get a flu on the KD, but your case is milder than might otherwise be and you acquire some resistance.

We had a flu here over the holidays, several of us, and it sure put me in bed for a couple of days and the bronchial congestion took a LONG time to clear up.

I have the flu at the moment too - runny nose and a hacking dry cough, otherwise fine. That's the third time in 12 months that I am slightly "fluey".

The first two times was when I actually left a well-established KD with ketone levels around 3-4 mmol/l. The first time I did a juice fast to see, if it was possible to stay in ketosis on a juice fast. The answer was "yes", but I had to abort it after 4 days because I became sick. Next time I got sick when I was in India, after getting out of ketosis too, because India is carb galore and it took me about two weeks to adapt my eating to the local cuisine. And then this time, which is unrelated to anything I am aware of ...

So I wonder if it is not the carb "upswings" that make us sick or vulnerable to viruses - or maybe it's even true for both ways, coming into ketosis and getting out of it. Presumably because the two metabolic states are so radically different that it totally disturbs the internal balance when moving from one side to the other.

And the other thing is: Once you start measuring ketone levels in the blood with the glucometer, you start to realise, that it is quite difficult to maintain an even level of BOHB in the blood. I have been measuring BOHB now for around 18 months - on average every two days, 2 hours after my last meal in the evening. Before measuring BOHB I was under the impression that I had mastered KD and could relatively well predict my level of ketosis. Well, turned out I was wrong. The more I measure the BOHB, the less I understand how the food I eat, the exercise I do and the mental state I am in influences my BOHB levels. For a while I wrote down the BOHB levels I was expecting versus the ones measured - I was way off more often then not.

On thing that I suspect is, that I am supremely sensitive to proteins. I am not sure whether this is just me, or if that is true in general with human beings on a KD. But it seems to me, that I can eat some amounts of carbs without disturbing my BOHB levels too much, but if I increase my protein ration just a little bit, then my BOHB levels go down pronouncedly.

18 months ago I thought I understood ketosis and the KD diet - the more I read about it and the more I experiment with different food compositions, the less I actually do ...

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...18 months ago I thought I understood ketosis and the KD diet - the more I read about it and the more I experiment with different food compositions, the less I actually do ...

Maybe at some point you will want to let go of what you think you know and have a fresh start. There is far more to it than you might imagine.

I don't think there is any one place to start, but it appears to me that you can't do meaningful n=1 experiments without having a good feeling for your own tendency to see patterns in randomness, sometimes called apophenia or, in ShermerSpeak, patternicity. Patterns that aren't really there, but you think they are there. False positives.

After that, you need to understand that what constitutes "you," physically is considerably more than what you normally think of as you. When you eat, you are feeding much more than your somatic cells. You are feeding your entire microbiome, including pathogens as well as symbiotes. These microorganisms vastly outnumber us and influence us in ways that we are barely beginning to understand. We depend upon them in ways that we are barely beginning to understand. This is terribly important to realize when observing what happens when you alter your diet, and difficult to measure. How do you measure something that is barely understood?

So it kind of makes sense that trying to correlate diet and health status often doesn't make sense. Differences in the microbiome alone, from one person to the next, guarantee different results for the same inputs. And your internal microbial balance varies over time, guaranteeing different results even for your own n=1 experiments performed using the same inputs but at different times. Something you interpret as a reaction to a change in diet can well be a microbial "bloom" that occurred right around the time you made a change, and that has nothing to do with the change.

This doesn't mean that the problems are unsolvable, but it might mean looking for a different approach.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...18 months ago I thought I understood ketosis and the KD diet - the more I read about it and the more I experiment with different food compositions, the less I actually do ...

Maybe at some point you will want to let go of what you think you know and have a fresh start. There is far more to it than you might imagine.

I don't think there is any one place to start, but it appears to me that you can't do meaningful n=1 experiments without having a good feeling for your own tendency to see patterns in randomness, sometimes called apophenia or, in ShermerSpeak, patternicity. Patterns that aren't really there, but you think they are there. False positives.

After that, you need to understand that what constitutes "you," physically is considerably more than what you normally think of as you. When you eat, you are feeding much more than your somatic cells. You are feeding your entire microbiome, including pathogens as well as symbiotes. These microorganisms vastly outnumber us and influence us in ways that we are barely beginning to understand. We depend upon them in ways that we are barely beginning to understand. This is terribly important to realize when observing what happens when you alter your diet, and difficult to measure. How do you measure something that is barely understood?

So it kind of makes sense that trying to correlate diet and health status often doesn't make sense. Differences in the microbiome alone, from one person to the next, guarantee different results for the same inputs. And your internal microbial balance varies over time, guaranteeing different results even for your own n=1 experiments performed using the same inputs but at different times. Something you interpret as a reaction to a change in diet can well be a microbial "bloom" that occurred right around the time you made a change, and that has nothing to do with the change.

This doesn't mean that the problems are unsolvable, but it might mean looking for a different approach.

Thanks for your input, MB - very valid points!

i know by now that I am probably too hung up on the diet sied of things and neglecting all the other influences that affect our health and body. You mentjioned a few - others that come to mind are heavy metals, contaminants in the food etc.

And yes, I am aware of the crucial role our microbiome plays, but as you rightly pointed out, there are big gaps in our knowledge in this respect.

I will try to set me expectations to zero and have a fresh look at things ...

 

[whitecoast]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi whitecoast,

Thanks for posting this article - quite interesting.

While he mentions a few very important points, I don't agree with some things he says, because it seems to me, that he still is mired in the carbohydrate controversy. He is talking about a low-carbohydrate diet - how low, I don't know, but he certainly doesn't advocate a ketogenic diet. A KD (plus or minus intermittent fasting) is an entirely different kettle of fish - you will grow muscle bulk under a KD without exercise. This might be counterintuitive, but most of us who have been on a KD for a significant amount of duration will tell you that. It's either Nora G. or Mark S. who gives the example of polar ice-bears, who have their biggest muscle bulk after they wake up from hibernation - and it goes down steadily as the season progresses.

{snip}

So in summary, while I think he mentions a few valid points, his outlook is a totally different one than my (or our) outlook, so I couldn't endorse his recommendations as they stand here.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, nicklebleu! Yeah a different kettle of fish indeed, when considering how he emphasizes insulin and mTOR signalling, even though Nora Gedgaudas makes a strong case for both those things reducing life expectancy in the long run. I wasn't aware polar bears gained muscle mass as a consequence of hibernation. As for how applicable that is to human metabolism, I'd like to learn more first about it. I don't remember seeing that in Nora's book, and I couldn't find it on Mark Sisson's website (is that the Mark S. to which you refer?). Maybe my memory is failing me though.

I've been pretty conscientious about going <20g carbs a day for over a year now, and often I do zero. Protein restriction has always been a bit more difficult for me unfortunately, but I'm making a committed go of it now. Using ketosticks, it was pretty amazing to see how much higher my ketone production was simply by staying under 25g per meal. :D My energy levels seem to dip a little, but short of piling on more fat I just will have to wait it out until I am 100% adapted.

I have the flu at the moment too - runny nose and a hacking dry cough, otherwise fine. That's the third time in 12 months that I am slightly "fluey".

The first two times was when I actually left a well-established KD with ketone levels around 3-4 mmol/l. The first time I did a juice fast to see, if it was possible to stay in ketosis on a juice fast. The answer was "yes", but I had to abort it after 4 days because I became sick. Next time I got sick when I was in India, after getting out of ketosis too, because India is carb galore and it took me about two weeks to adapt my eating to the local cuisine. And then this time, which is unrelated to anything I am aware of ...

So I wonder if it is not the carb "upswings" that make us sick or vulnerable to viruses - or maybe it's even true for both ways, coming into ketosis and getting out of it. Presumably because the two metabolic states are so radically different that it totally disturbs the internal balance when moving from one side to the other.

I only really recall a keto flu a couple months after diving in, but it hit me like a ton of bricks. Nowadays, coming down from having carbs during a holiday meal or something tends to only cause 3am wake-ups and a rash breakout that lasts 1-2 weeks, but I'm thinking the latter may have more to do with histamine intolerance, which I'm investigating.

I also wonder if the DNA changing effects of the KD might not leave a gap at times before other systems come online, during which viruses can invade.

Sorry, Laura, but I am not sure if I could follow your train of thought.

Did you mean that we can institute a KD, but that transformation of all the appropriate metabolic and genetic make-up will take much more time, until the KD becomes truly protective, during which time we are vulnerable to viruses?

Pretty much what I meant.

There's also a possibility that KD could turn ON some viruses and one might get flu-like symptoms during the transition/upregulation.
Another possibility: you get a flu on the KD, but your case is milder than might otherwise be and you acquire some resistance.
We had a flu here over the holidays, several of us, and it sure put me in bed for a couple of days and the bronchial congestion took a LONG time to clear up.

Could some viruses be beneficial to the transformation? If so, would antiviral medications be contraindicated during certain adaptive windows?
I noticed some antifungal suppliments like oregano oil do have antiviral properties as well - should those be avoided if one's doing a candida detox on top of keto-adaptation? I wonder what some people's experiences with that have been. Much to think about!

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

One possibility for introducing more actual data into your n=1 ketogenic diet experiments for those in the US would be to participate in the American Gut Project. For $99 and the time to fill out a survey and create a week-long food diary, you can obtain a useful snapshot of what's growing in your gut (and maybe elsewhere). If you change your diet significantly, you can do it again and possibly gain insight into some of the real-world results of the change you made. In my mind it beats looking for patterns in the noise any old day.

I have heard that the project is specifically looking for very low carb paleo participants, since so little is known about them. Various discount options are available, and if several of you go into it together you can save a bit off the $99 price.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

One possibility for introducing more actual data into your n=1 ketogenic diet experiments for those in the US would be to participate in the American Gut Project. For $99 and the time to fill out a survey and create a week-long food diary, you can obtain a useful snapshot of what's growing in your gut (and maybe elsewhere). If you change your diet significantly, you can do it again and possibly gain insight into some of the real-world results of the change you made. In my mind it beats looking for patterns in the noise any old day.

I have heard that the project is specifically looking for very low carb paleo participants, since so little is known about them. Various discount options are available, and if several of you go into it together you can save a bit off the $99 price.

Thanks for the suggestion MB - that would have been very interesting, were it not for the disclaimer at the start:

**Sorry, for the moment only those participants living in the US can join the study.

:(

Maybe they'll open the project for people living outside of the US at some stage - I would be keen to participate.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Maybe it has to do with the feasibility of shipping fresh excrement overseas? :P

 

[cubbex]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Keeping the changes on my diet:

Increase water intake, i read on SOTT you shouldn't take more than 8 glasses of water because it's not necessary, I guess is not if you don't need it but usually we need even more. My training coach said we need more than 8 glasses of water through the day and well I was so ignorant I didn't know water was the first energy source lol. Now I take at least 3 L

Taking omega 3 from fish oils supplements: I'm not good at this diet thing, but i'm progressing in my knowledge daily thanks to you and all of those been helping. So I'm taking 300,00 mg per day, that's the portion the little box says wee need. Also the supplement i'm taking has vitamin A and D. My coach says we need 3 grams per day, though I don't wanna risk taking too much as he's taller and he has a different body constitution that I do.

Royal Jelly: I've read not gone deep into it, but i've read is one of the best type of foods along with bee polen. 96,00 mg per day.

Vitamin C: Again my coach is the one that helps me in this because i'm bad at nutrition themes and related. He told me 3 g. daily divided, he told me 1 g after waking up, one before or after working out, and 1 g before sleeping. The purpose of this he says is to avoid adrenal fatigue, to reduce cortisols as working out can produce a lot of cortisol. Still I think is too much so i'm taking max 1.5 grams per day. I've also read on the net we don't need even more than 1 gram, so I

Results: Amazing, I mean i've been eating the best I can, but since I started taking this I've been feeling just great. I mean great, even my brain is for one reason full creative and performing correctly. My body while working out, I ever expected it but I performed amazingly, I mean I had so much stamina so much capacity.

What do you think? any recommendations? any particular time of the day to take any supplement? i'm taking this because working out that lead me to learn a little bit more about nutrition.

Also I've found a very cool channel on youtube about nutrition, is called spirito health, if they are 100% I don't know but they approach topics like adrenal glands, sugar addiction, fat consumption.

Energy levels- How to increase energy levels without artificial stimulants
_http://youtu.be/a2-PgBJ5k0U

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Increase water intake, i read on SOTT you shouldn't take more than 8 glasses of water because it's not necessary, I guess is not if you don't need it but usually we need even more. My training coach said we need more than 8 glasses of water through the day and well I was so ignorant I didn't know water was the first energy source lol. Now I take at least 3 L...

It is easy to make things up. I saw one analysis of the "8 glasses a day legend" that suggested that a person (probably a larger one) might possibly use the equivalent of 8 glasses of water a day, and that somebody somewhere may have taken that figure and twisted it around to say that we need to drink 8 glasses a day.

The fact is, we obtain water not only from drinking it but from our food (especially if it is real food) and from metabolic processes -- we make it! (Water is easy to make -- mix hydrogen and oxygen, light it, and boom. The biochemical process is more elegant, though.)

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Vitamin C: Again my coach is the one that helps me in this because i'm bad at nutrition themes and related. He told me 3 g. daily divided, he told me 1 g after waking up, one before or after working out, and 1 g before sleeping. The purpose of this he says is to avoid adrenal fatigue, to reduce cortisols as working out can produce a lot of cortisol. Still I think is too much so i'm taking max 1.5 grams per day. I've also read on the net we don't need even more than 1 gram, so I

I think the increasing amounts of vitamin C (and perhaps "vitamin" D) should be done with tracking the iron level in blood, that spoken in the HH thread. I have seen some people, "fanatical" of citrus and anything that has vitamin C, and have darkened skin and, perhaps, too wrinkled for their age. But, maybe you are mitigating all that with sports (and I think it's okay that you take less than what have recommended). Well, you've sure taken that into account in any case.
Since I'm on the ketogenic diet (around 6 months, before that two and half years of paleo), I'm taking citrus once a week, on an empty stomach. Maybe others can give you better advice about amount and frequency of intake of vitamin c.

The fact is, we obtain water not only from drinking it but from our food (especially if it is real food) and from metabolic processes -- we make it! (Water is easy to make -- mix hydrogen and oxygen, light it, and boom. The biochemical process is more elegant, though.)

Very true. Thanks for the reminder, MB.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Increase water intake, i read on SOTT you shouldn't take more than 8 glasses of water because it's not necessary, I guess is not if you don't need it but usually we need even more. My training coach said we need more than 8 glasses of water through the day and well I was so ignorant I didn't know water was the first energy source lol. Now I take at least 3 L...

It is easy to make things up. I saw one analysis of the "8 glasses a day legend" that suggested that a person (probably a larger one) might possibly use the equivalent of 8 glasses of water a day, and that somebody somewhere may have taken that figure and twisted it around to say that we need to drink 8 glasses a day.

The fact is, we obtain water not only from drinking it but from our food (especially if it is real food) and from metabolic processes -- we make it! (Water is easy to make -- mix hydrogen and oxygen, light it, and boom. The biochemical process is more elegant, though.)

I totally agree with MB on that ...

I think that the notion that we need to drink 8 glasses of water stems from the misconception MB noted, that we need 8 glasses of water in total - including food and the metabolic water.

If you deduct the two from the 8 glasses you end up with about half of it that one needs to drink - plus we need to compensate for eventual losses through sweating etc. I normally live in the tropics, so I might end up drinking more than 8 glasses of water if I sweat a lot. But otherwise I usually drink when I feel thirsty.

If I drink 8 glasses of water under "temperate conditions" I have to go to the toilet every two hours and my urine is very clear. At work I cannot go to the toilet every two hours. So my gauge is to have a slightly yellow urine, not dark yellow (as that might indicate dehydration - but be aware that colour is not a very reliable guide to its concentration, as a lot of food items may colour your urine quite a bit - e.g. vitamin B, beet root, without affecting the concentration a lot).

 

[whitecoast]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Found an interesting link between autism and mitochondrial dysfunction, suggesting mitochondrial repair can perhaps play a role in solving a number of pervasive developmental disorders.

Study finds mitochondrial dysfunction in autistic children

A new exploratory study funded in part by NIEHS presents evidence that deficits in the ability to produce cellular energy are significantly more common in children with autism.

Published in JAMA, the findings from what may be the first study of its kind are the result of an interdisciplinary research effort by a team of scientists at the University of California, Davis (UCD). The team included NIEHS grantees Irva Hertz-Picciotto, Ph.D. (see related story), and Isaac Pessah, Ph.D., of the UCD Medical Investigation of Neurodevelopmental Disorders (MIND) Institute.

The study Exit NIEHS looked at biomarkers of mitochondrial function in blood samples from 20 children - ten diagnosed with autism and ten typically developing controls of similar age and demographic. The team randomly selected the autistic children from Northern California subjects who were previously enrolled in the NIEHS-funded 1,600-participant Childhood Autism Risk from Genetics and the Environment (CHARGE) Study Exit NIEHS.

Although the differences between measures of mitochondrial function in subjects and controls were dramatic, the authors were understandably cautious about the interpretation of their findings. "More research is needed to understand the molecular causes of mitochondrial dysfunction and how this and other neurometabolic defects may contribute to autism or related phenotypes," wrote lead author Cecilia Giulivi, Ph.D. Exit NIEHS Giulivi is a professor in the Department of Molecular Biosciences in the School of Veterinary Medicine at UCD and a recipient of an Autism Speaks Pilot Award that provided partial funding for the study.

A possible link between energy deficits and cognitive development

The researchers speculate that a lack of the ability to fuel the brain neurons, which consume high levels of energy second only to levels required by the heart, might trigger some of the cognitive deficits associated with autism. Mitochondria are the primary source of energy production in the cells, and mitochondrial dysfunction and resulting oxidative stress have been associated with a number of other neurological disorders.

The researchers found that mitochondria from children with autism consumed far less oxygen than mitochondria from the group of control children, a sign of lowered mitochondrial activity. Findings that hydrogen peroxide levels in autistic children were twice as high as in normal children support the concept that the cells of children with autism were exposed to higher oxidative stress.

According to Giulivi, mitochondrial diseases cause exercise intolerance, seizures, and cognitive decline, among other conditions. Some children will manifest disease symptoms and some will appear as sporadic cases. "Many of these characteristics are shared by children with autism," she is quoted as saying in a Nov. 30 press release Exit NIEHS from UCD.

"Only one child with autism in this study fulfilled the diagnostic criteria for a definite mitochondrial respiratory chain disorder," Giulivi said. "Collectively these results suggest that cumulative damage and oxidative stress over time may - through reduced capacity to generate functional mitochondria - influence the onset or severity of autism and its co-morbid symptoms."

Looking to the future

Echoing the study's call for further investigations, NIEHS Principal Investigator William Copeland, Ph.D., also expressed a need for more research. "This is a very preliminary study, and the high percentage of mitochondrial defects seen in this very small patient study is unprecedented and will need to be verified in a more expanded study," observed Copeland, who is head of the NIEHS Mitochondrial DNA Repair Group in the Laboratory of Molecular Genetics.

Such future studies may benefit from new NIEHS-funded efforts to determine the best or most widely accepted cellular or biological measures that signal mitochondrial dysfunction more accurately in non-invasive or minimally invasive sample collections (see related story).

Edit: forgot the link: http://www.niehs.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2011/january/science-mitochondrial.cfm

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

That's interesting. Thanks for sharing, whitecoast.

 

[cubbex]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Vitamin C: Again my coach is the one that helps me in this because i'm bad at nutrition themes and related. He told me 3 g. daily divided, he told me 1 g after waking up, one before or after working out, and 1 g before sleeping. The purpose of this he says is to avoid adrenal fatigue, to reduce cortisols as working out can produce a lot of cortisol. Still I think is too much so i'm taking max 1.5 grams per day. I've also read on the net we don't need even more than 1 gram, so I

I think the increasing amounts of vitamin C (and perhaps "vitamin" D) should be done with tracking the iron level in blood, that spoken in the HH thread. I have seen some people, "fanatical" of citrus and anything that has vitamin C, and have darkened skin and, perhaps, too wrinkled for their age. But, maybe you are mitigating all that with sports (and I think it's okay that you take less than what have recommended). Well, you've sure taken that into account in any case.
Since I'm on the ketogenic diet (around 6 months, before that two and half years of paleo), I'm taking citrus once a week, on an empty stomach. Maybe others can give you better advice about amount and frequency of intake of vitamin c.

The fact is, we obtain water not only from drinking it but from our food (especially if it is real food) and from metabolic processes -- we make it! (Water is easy to make -- mix hydrogen and oxygen, light it, and boom. The biochemical process is more elegant, though.)

Very true. Thanks for the reminder, MB.

Yes, he also recommends drinking lemonade without sugar in the morning for detoxing. What i've been going through is that I suffer from adrenal fatigue, even if a doctor has not diagnosed me like this I suffer from some of the traits described in the thread. And they mention lack of vitamin C, adding that plus cortisol and stress produced at sports I had the assumption I may need more. I don't really take citrus, I don't really eat many fruits but some bananas or apples.

Other thing i've found is that pro athletes, even those in the fitness model industry or the bodybuilding are pretty aware of the benefits of ketogenic diet and paleo diet, most of them do it, most of them eat a lot and are pretty healthy. Arnold the idol of most of the meat heads said that a lot of things from the golden age or paleo age were correctly, even if they seem primitive. This knowledge has been either kept secret by those pro in the fitness industry, because this topic is being released on the internet from most of the professionals, and for what they say it seems that is something going around for quite some time.

I've also read that our bodies should be more alkaline than acid, so taking electrolytes would be a good idea.

 

[Ariadna]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi whitecoast,

Thanks for posting this article - quite interesting.

While he mentions a few very important points, I don't agree with some things he says, because it seems to me, that he still is mired in the carbohydrate controversy. He is talking about a low-carbohydrate diet - how low, I don't know, but he certainly doesn't advocate a ketogenic diet. A KD (plus or minus intermittent fasting) is an entirely different kettle of fish - you will grow muscle bulk under a KD without exercise. This might be counterintuitive, but most of us who have been on a KD for a significant amount of duration will tell you that. It's either Nora G. or Mark S. who gives the example of polar ice-bears, who have their biggest muscle bulk after they wake up from hibernation - and it goes down steadily as the season progresses.

{snip}

So in summary, while I think he mentions a few valid points, his outlook is a totally different one than my (or our) outlook, so I couldn't endorse his recommendations as they stand here.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, nicklebleu! Yeah a different kettle of fish indeed, when considering how he emphasizes insulin and mTOR signalling, even though Nora Gedgaudas makes a strong case for both those things reducing life expectancy in the long run. I wasn't aware polar bears gained muscle mass as a consequence of hibernation. As for how applicable that is to human metabolism, I'd like to learn more first about it. I don't remember seeing that in Nora's book, and I couldn't find it on Mark Sisson's website (is that the Mark S. to which you refer?). Maybe my memory is failing me though.

I've been pretty conscientious about going <20g carbs a day for over a year now, and often I do zero. Protein restriction has always been a bit more difficult for me unfortunately, but I'm making a committed go of it now. Using ketosticks, it was pretty amazing to see how much higher my ketone production was simply by staying under 25g per meal. :D My energy levels seem to dip a little, but short of piling on more fat I just will have to wait it out until I am 100% adapted.

I have the flu at the moment too - runny nose and a hacking dry cough, otherwise fine. That's the third time in 12 months that I am slightly "fluey".

The first two times was when I actually left a KD with ketone levels around 3-4 mmol/l. The first time I did a juice fast to see, if it was possible to stay in ketosis on a juice fast. The answer was "yes", but I had to abort it after 4 days because I became sick. Next time I got sick when I was in India, after getting out of ketosis too, because India is carb galore and it took me about two weeks to adapt my eating to the local cuisine. And then this time, which is unrelated to anything I am aware of ...

So I wonder if it is not the carb "upswings" that make us sick or vulnerable to viruses - or maybe it's even true for both ways, coming into ketosis and getting out of it. Presumably because the two metabolic states are so radically different that it totally disturbs the internal balance when moving from one side to the other.

I only really recall a keto flu a couple months after diving in, but it hit me like a ton of bricks. Nowadays, coming down from having carbs during a holiday meal or something tends to only cause 3am wake-ups and a rash breakout that lasts 1-2 weeks, but I'm thinking the latter may have more to do with histamine intolerance, which I'm investigating.

I also wonder if the DNA changing effects of the KD might not leave a gap at times before other systems come online, during which viruses can invade.

Sorry, Laura, but I am not sure if I could follow your train of thought.

Did you mean that we can institute a KD, but that transformation of all the appropriate metabolic and genetic make-up will take much more time, until the KD becomes truly protective, during which time we are vulnerable to viruses?

Pretty much what I meant.

There's also a possibility that KD could turn ON some viruses and one might get flu-like symptoms during the transition/upregulation.
Another possibility: you get a flu on the KD, but your case is milder than might otherwise be and you acquire some resistance.
We had a flu here over the holidays, several of us, and it sure put me in bed for a couple of days and the bronchial congestion took a LONG time to clear up.

Could some viruses be beneficial to the transformation? If so, would antiviral medications be contraindicated during certain adaptive windows?
I noticed some antifungal suppliments like oregano oil do have antiviral properties as well - should those be avoided if one's doing a candida detox on top of keto-adaptation? I wonder what some people's experiences with that have been. Much to think about!

Hello
Following flu thread, I tell you my episode, I think it may serve to continue providing information.
After 10 days of flu symptoms, I suddenly got worse, with extreme weakness, marked weight loss, loss of appetite, barely could drink broth. For two days I have felt very vulnerable. Very weak physically, just moved in bed suffering palpitations. I also felt emotionally vulnerable when I thought about my son and my elderly mother. I guess this episode bring me some lesson ...
I spent a day in the hospital. Despite not having pneumonia, but bad cough and bronchial secretion, acceptable analytic and normal echocardiogram, I had to take antibiotics and retroviral because the doctor thought it was influenza A H1N1.

Finally, virus has affected me is type B, more benign type.
I wonder if my system could be vulnerable in the transition to the KD (started the process six months ago) as Laura poses. Perhaps the fact gluten accidentally taking 10 days before becoming ill, maybe I have lost too much weight (12kg.) or just not cared enough previous days.
Certainly some weeks prior to fever, I did not feel as strong as before and my skin and subcutaneous tissue had a poorer appearance. I think I wasn't absorbing nutrients well and I don't know why. I was also taking probiotics.
The truth is that, for now, I have had to do major exceptions to the KD. When I'm strong again I will have to start again. I learned things during this time ... but I still feel that there are many variables that I don't drive.