Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

An observation about ketostix. When I started the ketogenic diet, the strips showed trace amount of ketones. After a week or so it started to show large amounts. After that the strips went back to show trace amounts again. I was reasonably sure I was in ketosis based on the diet and how hunger had gone down significantly. When I tested blood ketones with a home testing meter, it read 7.1 while the ketostix showed only trace amounts. I am not sure at this point if the meter is calibrated properly though. Fasting blood glucose levels tested at 77. The reading was consistent in two tests at a short interval.

If the meter is accurate, then it would seem like what Thomas Seyfried wrote in

[quote author= Cancer as a Metabolic Disease ]
Ketones are retained in the body when glucose levels are low. Ketones serve as an energy substitute for glucose. If glucose is not reduced as in the KC-UR (unrestricted keto cal)groups, then most ketones will be excreted in the urine. This is why it is better to measure blood ketone levels than to measure urine ketones as an indicator of ketosis.

was verified in this case.


[/quote]

Does this mean that any time you eat carbs it causes ketones to be excreted through the urine? Is it possible that if the urine strips do not get lighter after a while it means you are still eating too much?

Furthermore, I think it was The UltraMind Solution where it was explained that even before eating, if you see cheesecake your body will preemptively produce insulin to lower blood sugar. IE there is a psychological aspect to blood sugar. I have been thinking about this more and more. If one is in ketoadaption, but entertains the thought of carb binging, could it do the same, lowering blood glucose and causing low blood sugar symptoms, even reducing mental acuity and opening the door to mental programs and leeching willpower? If so, perhaps the same could cause one to urinate ketones. Could this be one reason for carb cravings during mid-ketoadaption - where thinking about or smelling carbs triggers low blood sugar and all these effects?

I wanted to quickly find that portion of the paper but it seems the text you quote is not this?

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/7/1/7

EDITED: contradictory deduction stricken asunder.

 

[Scottie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

An observation about ketostix. When I started the ketogenic diet, the strips showed trace amount of ketones. After a week or so it started to show large amounts. After that the strips went back to show trace amounts again. I was reasonably sure I was in ketosis based on the diet and how hunger had gone down significantly. When I tested blood ketones with a home testing meter, it read 7.1 while the ketostix showed only trace amounts. I am not sure at this point if the meter is calibrated properly though. Fasting blood glucose levels tested at 77. The reading was consistent in two tests at a short interval.

Well, I have noticed that when I'm loaded up on fat and I've just worked out, I usually show up as "low" or "medium" on the ketostix. Later, when I go to bed, the ketostix say I'm up to "high keto".

So, I think it really depends. If you're super-hydrated, I would think that would dilute the urine. Since I normally have bone broth for lunch, and I work out in the late afternoon, I should be in hard-core ketosis for sure by the end of a workout.

Overall, I think the ketostix are really only useful for a general idea of one's level of ketosis.

I will add that the day I experimented with some added carbs (up to Paleo level, i.e. ~40g) just to see what would happen after about 4.5 weeks of full ketosis, the ketostix did NOT go up - they actually went down from high (level 5 of 5) to 4/5.

Lately, I'm hovering around 4/5, but I'm pretty darn sure I'm in solid ketosis since I've reduced protein a bit more. When I was eating more protein, the sticks were 5/5. Go figure! I suppose it's possible that as time progresses, you might even expel fewer ketones because your body is using more of them... And then it might also depend on the amount of fat you are consuming? I dunno.

In short, I think the best rule of thumb is to keep carbs low, keep protein low, and load up on fat. Then, see how you feel and maybe vary things as you go. Some days (like yesterday) I was more or less craving more fat. I had almost 3 times my normal amount of bone broth, with added lard at lunch.

Most importantly, if you're in ketosis, you'll know it. Either you'll have tons of energy, or you'll be dragging a bit as your body does some repair work.

As long as I'm here, I'll also note that my "dragging days" have diminished (knocks on wood). Now, I tend to feel only slightly tired on some days muscle-wise, but instead I have other interesting symptoms like a slightly sore throat, or periods of sneezing and a bit of sniffling. Maybe there are different phases of internal remodeling that cause different symptoms as time progresses.

YMMV!

 

[seek10]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I finally got bones for broth a number of days ago, cooked up 1 kg. Having salted plenty (but not too much) and boiled away some water when preparing it, after putting it in the refrigerator it became fully solid, with a thick layer of fat on top.

I'm proud to say I finally achieved gel! Got some bones from WholeFoods on Saturday and they must have been full of marrow. Geeze, they can get away with charging a pretty penny for a couple pounds of bones they could ordinarily throw away.

I too enjoy to have gel.It depends on how many bones you put in it. if you put less bones it can become watery, Gel won't form in the refrigerator.

couple of days back, I was excited to hear from my gym guy that "it is difficult for new comer to do chin up bar 3 times". but I did it. :).

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I thought I'd share an update.

I went to the hospital for a check-up on my right eye, which is infected by the herpes simplex virus. Prior to meeting the eye doctor, I first did some vision tests with an assistant. Then I met up with the eye doctor, and one of the first things she asked me was how I felt my eye was doing. I told her that I can see things in the distance better than before (this improvement happened when I started doing the ketogenic diet, i.e. sticking to appropriate protein levels and adding more bone broth). Then she told me that my sight is 100%! That means that my eyesight went from 90 to 100%. I think that is quite an improvement. Personally though I wouldn't say it is entirely 100%, because I do get a slight blurry vision depending on the time of the day, stress levels etc. but overall I am definitely seeing that it is doing better. Other things I've noticed is increased sensitivity to bright environments; this helps me to protect it, and increased ability to handle stress (I can for example do more behind the computer/read more from a book before my eye gets stressed out).

Well back to the hospital, she said that the way my eye looks, i.e. the virus or what looks like a scar or white/translucent spot in my eye, hasn't changed its form that much. However, she did notice more blood vessels being present. She told me that she would like to see them gone. When I asked for more information regarding the blood vessels, she was quite vague about it, she said that the presence of blood vessels (where they shouldn't be) can either be a good thing; i.e. it can aid the immune system in fighting off the virus, or it can be a bad thing (which she didn't explain). I do know that tumors can induce the growth of blood vessels (angiogenesis) so that the tumor has better access to food (nutrients and oxygen), and I also remember reading in a paper once that viruses can do the same, which in my case would be called "ocular neovascularization". And here it says that the Herpes Virus (or atleast one type of it) also secretes growth factors, including VEGF or "vascular endothelial growth factor" which seems to play a major role in angiogenesis:

New research has found that age-related macular degeneration, one of the most feared conditions that leads to blindness, might have its roots in a type of herpes-virus infection.

The findings indicate that the human cytomegalovirus causes the production of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), a signal protein that regulates the formation of new blood vessels. With the formation of these new blood vessels, retinal tissue destruction occurs, leading to the development of age-related macular degeneration and eventually, blindness.

According to this paper:

In this report, we investigate mechanisms by which HSV-1 infection
of the eye results in neovascularization, an essential step in
the pathogenesis of SK, an ocular lesion that impairs and can ablate
vision (35). [...]
Thus, any new blood vessel development in the anterior
tissues damages vision by diffracting light, and because new
vessels are leaky (4, 11), they readily permit escape of inflammatory
cells that further contribute to the loss of transparency.
Accordingly, preventing, and ideally reversing, neovascularization
is an important objective to retain optimal vision.

So, neovascularization seems to play a role in loss of vision, so I don't quite understand why there'd be more (new) blood vessels while at the same time my vision improving. I also couldn't really find a reason why the Herpes virus really does this, does it do it to have better access to food? Or to spread out more easily? Perhaps the virus (in my case) is getting desperate and is ''recruiting'' as many blood vessels as it can to feed/sustain itself. Well, since I'm on the ketogenic diet, having 0 carbs or near 0 carbs, plus not eating any foods that are high in arginine, which is an amino acid that promotes the growth of this virus, it may (hopefully) starve out, and the blood vessels may hopefully go away too.

I also couldn't find much information on what the eye doctor said about the possibility that the new blood vessels could aid the immune system in fighting off the virus. The only thing that I read was that normal angiogenesis is an important part of wound healing.

But I guess I'll see what will happen, and any thoughts are welcome! All I know is that so far the ketogenic diet has been very helpful, even though it is a slow process battling this virus, but I'm up for it, and I'm very grateful to know about the diet. So a huge Thank you Ailén, Laura and Psyche and the rest of the network for sharing!! I'll keep you all updated when I have more info on the development of my condition.

 

[Ollie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...
In short, I think the best rule of thumb is to keep carbs low, keep protein low, and load up on fat. Then, see how you feel and maybe vary things as you go. ...

Most importantly, if you're in ketosis, you'll know it. Either you'll have tons of energy, or you'll be dragging a bit as your body does some repair work.

As long as I'm here, I'll also note that my "dragging days" have diminished (knocks on wood). Now, I tend to feel only slightly tired on some days muscle-wise, but instead I have other interesting symptoms like a slightly sore throat, or periods of sneezing and a bit of sniffling. Maybe there are different phases of internal remodeling that cause different symptoms as time progresses.

YMMV!

That has been my experience too, over the last year, I've even experimented as you have with increased carbs, excess protein - and you know the effect!!! Also, I get sniffling when meditating or doing EE.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...An observation about ketostix. When I started the ketogenic diet, the strips showed trace amount of ketones. After a week or so it started to show large amounts. After that the strips went back to show trace amounts again. I was reasonably sure I was in ketosis based on the diet and how hunger had gone down significantly. When I tested blood ketones with a home testing meter, it read 7.1 while the ketostix showed only trace amounts. I am not sure at this point if the meter is calibrated properly though. Fasting blood glucose levels tested at 77. The reading was consistent in two tests at a short interval...

I believe that's consistent with what has been said for the last year or so here -- ketostix measure ketone "wasting." As you adapt, ketone wasting should drop to a low level. Measuring serum BOHB, as the meters do, is a much more useful indicator.

The BOHB level tends to rise through the day. Exercise will elevate it, as will consuming MCTs. You may have caught it at a peak.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Oxajil, just as arginine promotes the growth of herpes viruses, the amino acid lysine is used to suppress herpes infections. You might want to look further into whether lysine might help. FWIW.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Most importantly, if you're in ketosis, you'll know it. Either you'll have tons of energy, or you'll be dragging a bit as your body does some repair work...

Maybe; maybe not. If you don't feel it then obtaining a BOHB meter may be helpful. I can tell you that uncooperative gut microbes can keep you dragging even if you are consuming zero carbs. Some of these critters thrive on ketones. Also the ketone levels may vary from one person to the next.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Oxajil, just as arginine promotes the growth of herpes viruses, the amino acid lysine is used to suppress herpes infections. You might want to look further into whether lysine might help. FWIW.

Hi ST, I experimented with that for a little while, but the effect wasn't that noticeable. For now, I'll just stick to the diet and a few additional supplements and see how it goes. I may try the extra lysine experiment some time again. As long as I keep the Lys:Arg ratio in a way that there is more Lysine (which is the case in a ketogenic diet), I think I'll hopefully be ok. But thanks for the suggestion SeekinTruth.

 

[Alana]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

As long as I'm here, I'll also note that my "dragging days" have diminished (knocks on wood). Now, I tend to feel only slightly tired on some days muscle-wise, but instead I have other interesting symptoms like a slightly sore throat, or periods of sneezing and a bit of sniffling. Maybe there are different phases of internal remodeling that cause different symptoms as time progresses.

I noticed those symptoms myself. I wasn't sure at some point if I was getting a cold, but it remained very mild, to the point of not affecting my daily activities. I still have some traces of these symptoms, but like you say, it might be part of the "internal" remodeling".

I also wanted to report that unlike my first period after going 0 carbs, starting broth, etc, which was almost completely pain-free, the second time around it was very painful. I tried to see what was it that might have caused more inflammation (that's what it felt like) the second time, and the one thing that changed was that I completely stopped taking any supplements. At some point last month I "felt" I didn't need them, and I felt ok without them. But after this painful period this month, I decided to add back the fish oils, magnesium and potassium that I was taking last month, and see if there's any difference next time.

Exercise wise, I am sticking to a half hour, 2xweek regime of lifting weights, push ups and using an elliptic machine we have for leg-resistance workout. It seems to be working well. I was always very week when coming to push-ups, so I've been doing them on my knees, but yesterday I was able to do 10 reps on my toes for the first time ever :D I collapsed afterwards, of course....

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Most importantly, if you're in ketosis, you'll know it. Either you'll have tons of energy, or you'll be dragging a bit as your body does some repair work...

Maybe; maybe not. If you don't feel it then obtaining a BOHB meter may be helpful. I can tell you that uncooperative gut microbes can keep you dragging even if you are consuming zero carbs. Some of these critters thrive on ketones. Also the ketone levels may vary from one person to the next.

Hmmm... why would gut microbes have any access to ketone bodies? You shouldn't have any ketones in the gut unless you're directly consuming them. Ketones are primarily made in the liver and they travel through the blood stream to the various cells. I can't think of any time they would be escaping into the gut. OSIT.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I also couldn't find much information on what the eye doctor said about the possibility that the new blood vessels could aid the immune system in fighting off the virus. The only thing that I read was that normal angiogenesis is an important part of wound healing.

I'm glad to hear that you have 100% eye vision :) Perhaps it is the quality of the angiogenesis more than anything else. If it allows for leakage, then scar tissue forms that lead to blindness. As it is, if your eyesight is getting better it will be worth to wait and see if this angiogenesis stabilizes or regresses.

Making a search about it I found that microRNAs (thought to be viral in origin, as in "junk" DNA) is involved in angiogenesis after eye infection by herpes virus. Perhaps as autophagy progresses, that will get stabilized.

Role of miR-132 in Angiogenesis after Ocular Infection with Herpes Simplex Virus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22659469

"To our knowledge, this is one of the first reports of miRNA involvement in an infectious ocular disease."

Another thing that herpes dysregulates is Nuclear Factor-κB. This is something you can help stabilize with alpha lipoic acid which is both fat and water soluble, so it should readily reach your eye.

Nuclear Factor-κB: central regulator in ocular surface inflammation and diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22814642

The nuclear factor-κB (NF-κB) is a key transcription factor pathway that is responsible for many key biological processes, such as inflammation, apoptosis, stress response, corneal wound healing, angiogenesis, and lymphangiogenesis. Numerous recent studies have investigated NF-κB in the context of ocular surface disorders, including chemical injury, ultraviolet radiation-induced injury, microbial infections, allergic eye diseases, dry eye, pterygium, and corneal graft rejection.

Alpha lipoic acid also crosses the blood-brain barrier. ALA repairs DNA and prevents DNA and RNA from the damaging processes that result from nuclear factor-κB cell-signaling chain reactions. ALA recycles other antioxidants such as vitamin C, vitamin E, and glutathione which is an indispensable antioxidant for detoxification and is synthesized within the mitochondrion which might be dysfunctional due to the herpes virus. The recommended dose of ALA is 100mg twice a day with meals. Although others have used higher doses: 300mg - 600mg.

IMO, worth a try.

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also an update from my site.

Today I did reconnect to the insulin pump, cause sometimes I need not much insulin and to have the possibility to switch off the insulin intake to raise the BG. I was for some days almost the hole day restless, cause my body signaled emergency mode due to a low BG, also when I ate the hole day the basal rate of insulin was still a bit too much and once insulin is injected (which lasts then over 15-24hrs) I can only hope that the protein raises the BG again. And not to hope anymore that it is fitting I'm having now the insulin pump again after about 6 months. Today was then the opposite again and the BG was too high (don't know what causes these swings and needs of the body), so I had to cope with the daily brain fog + another kind of brain fog due to the high BG.

Since about two days I have to go pretty early to bed and heavy tiredness combined with a strong nauseous feeling. I need more sleep and another nap during the day and somehow dreams are more intensified. In the evening I feel then almost normal again, only the work load gets a bit too much, what I couldn't do over the day :).

And cause of the nauseous feeling in the evening/before going to bed I write down now everything I eat to see where my limits are. Today I had ~170 gr. fat and ~50gr of protein.

As long as I'm here, I'll also note that my "dragging days" have diminished (knocks on wood). Now, I tend to feel only slightly tired on some days muscle-wise, but instead I have other interesting symptoms like a slightly sore throat, or periods of sneezing and a bit of sniffling. Maybe there are different phases of internal remodeling that cause different symptoms as time progresses.

I noticed those symptoms myself. I wasn't sure at some point if I was getting a cold, but it remained very mild, to the point of not affecting my daily activities. I still have some traces of these symptoms, but like you say, it might be part of the "internal" remodeling".

Similar here, I had it about one week ago.

Fasting blood glucose levels tested at 77. The reading was consistent in two tests at a short interval

Did you mean 7.7? as 77 would be very high, or perhaps your meter is not in mmol/l.
Even 7.7 would be very high for someone in ketosis.

Glucose was 77 mg/dL. Ketone was 7.1mmol/L. I am not too sure of the accuracy of the ketone reading. It took quite a few attempts using multiple strips to get a value out of it. 7 is in the higher range of ketosis though based on what I could gather from different sources like

So far there is no worldwide common consent on BG units. Some use mg/dl, some mmol/l. Mmol/l can be converted to mg/dl when multiplying by ~18.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I noticed those symptoms myself. I wasn't sure at some point if I was getting a cold, but it remained very mild, to the point of not affecting my daily activities. I still have some traces of these symptoms, but like you say, it might be part of the "internal" remodeling".

Yeah, it is actually the norm rather than the exception. Some call it the the "low carb flu". As far as I understand, it is due to autophagy. The kill out of intracellular bugs as our cells get renewed results in significant symptoms. I think that it even goes by cycles as our bodies regenerate.

In LWB, the docs recommend actually a low dose of cortisone for 5 days for those who suffer of significant symptoms and have autoimmune conditions. They say it works like a charm. But I would reserve that for special cases as it might slow down the kill out of bugs. If anything, a low dose hydrocortisone therapy for adrenal support might be better.

I'm alternating with high energy and extreme tiredness, plus a few flu symptoms as well. But so far it is tolerable and I'm still highly functional :)

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Today was then the opposite again and the BG was too high (don't know what causes these swings and needs of the body), so I had to cope with the daily brain fog + another kind of brain fog due to the high BG.

Hmm, perhaps it would be a good idea to have alpha lipoic acid in hand when this happens. It helps to lower blood sugar levels, and it will help you repair DNA as well.

Perhaps all these swings will likely happen as long as there is significant autophagy and repair going on in your body.