Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I rediscovered the deliciousness of tea with butter again. We talked about it in LWB, but today, as I was feeling very tired, and after having almost the entire pot of broth with fat, I decided to add the butter to the tea. Hmm, delicious! I'm feeling better now.

I would try to limit my black tea consumption though. As obyvatel posted in another thread, caffeinated beverages slow down ketosis. I'll added it to my chamomile tea instead.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

dugdeep said:
Hmmm... why would gut microbes have any access to ketone bodies? You shouldn't have any ketones in the gut unless you're directly consuming them. Ketones are primarily made in the liver and they travel through the blood stream to the various cells. I can't think of any time they would be escaping into the gut. OSIT.

It's a good question, one that I have been wondering about myself. I am still looking for answers. I am starting to go numb at the thought of reading another blog post or listening to another podcast about "gut problems."
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Batch 3 bone broth: I ordered marrow bones, the package came marked soup bones. They appear to be leg bones, but do have a lot of marrow. They came with all the fat and meat trimmed off.

I cooked them for about 27 hours. During the cooking the marrow came out of the bones and into the broth. Good result there. Even though there was little fat on the bones themselves there must have been quite a bit in the marrow. The two quart jars have about 1 1/2" of fat on top, more than previous batches.

As I mentioned in my post about batch 2 using spare ribs those bones softened during cooking. I ground them in a blender and stirred them into the broth. Not a good idea. What it makes is basically sand. Fortunately, the sand sunk to the bottom of the cup so was easy to avoid.

As I mentioned in this thread http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,29121.0.html I cut nuts out of my died in attempt to avoid kidney stones. Over the past year I have had trouble with my vision. Doctor said early cataracts. After being off nuts for a few days my vision has noticeably cleared. There is still some distortion at long distances but my vision is much less foggy. I can read more easily, overall better vision.

Taking out nuts brings me to nearly 0 carbs. So far I feel great.

Mac
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan said:
dugdeep said:
Hmmm... why would gut microbes have any access to ketone bodies? You shouldn't have any ketones in the gut unless you're directly consuming them. Ketones are primarily made in the liver and they travel through the blood stream to the various cells. I can't think of any time they would be escaping into the gut. OSIT.

It's a good question, one that I have been wondering about myself. I am still looking for answers. I am starting to go numb at the thought of reading another blog post or listening to another podcast about "gut problems."

Who sez? I mean, if there is nothing in the gut to feed them, they die; that's why most people get constipated when they cut out veggies, not because they are "missing the fiber" but because all the critters die. Heck, for people who eat carbs, most of their fecal matter is dead microbes mixed up with undigested fiber.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Laura said:
Megan said:
dugdeep said:
Hmmm... why would gut microbes have any access to ketone bodies? You shouldn't have any ketones in the gut unless you're directly consuming them. Ketones are primarily made in the liver and they travel through the blood stream to the various cells. I can't think of any time they would be escaping into the gut. OSIT.

It's a good question, one that I have been wondering about myself. I am still looking for answers. I am starting to go numb at the thought of reading another blog post or listening to another podcast about "gut problems."

Who sez? I mean, if there is nothing in the gut to feed them, they die; that's why most people get constipated when they cut out veggies, not because they are "missing the fiber" but because all the critters die. Heck, for people who eat carbs, most of their fecal matter is dead microbes mixed up with undigested fiber.

I don't think you would want *all* your gut microbes to die, or even just the bacteria, although at that point you probably wouldn't care any more. The bacteria can't use ketones, I don't think, but they have other sources of food. Yeast, protozoans, and such may be able to use ketones, if they can find a supply. Ketones are relatively mobile because they are water soluble.

That's about all I know at this point, apart from the fact that my gut bacteria have been able to adapt to any level of carb intake right down to more or less zero, and that some of them are still fermenting up a storm even though I am hardly producing any stool, resulting in the usual gas, gurgling, and gas pain. It eases when I have a bowel movement, but eating so little vegetable material prolongs the time between those, and seems to make matters worse.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

H.E. said:
Thank you Psyche, apart from NaCl do you recommend any other mineral supplementation, I would imagine that bone broth contains all the minerals needed except perhaps Potassium.

What interests me is how much weight have you and other thinner types lost since being in ketosis, if any. Or did this weight loss stabilized at some point, or did someone perhaps managed to gain some weight while in ketosis?

If you have bone broth everyday, plus some salted water, you should be fine. I would have in stock magnesium and potassium just in case. Not necessarily to be taken every day, but if you feel extra tired after working out despite the fatty broth and the salted water, you can take them. Some days we are more stressed than others and it will be handy to have them.

Know that you will be able to preserve your muscle mass by providing enough protein for maintenance and repair and lots of fats for energy output. You could still lose weight, but it might be bulkiness from water retention or fat deposits. Overall, I think that nowadays people tend to feel too thin in a society where guys are encouraged to look way too big, a la "neanderthal". ;)

I think you will benefit enormously with this diet.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Obyvatel said:
An observation about ketostix. When I started the ketogenic diet, the strips showed trace amount of ketones. After a week or so it started to show large amounts. After that the strips went back to show trace amounts again. I was reasonably sure I was in ketosis based on the diet and how hunger had gone down significantly. When I tested blood ketones with a home testing meter, it read 7.1 while the ketostix showed only trace amounts. I am not sure at this point if the meter is calibrated properly though. Fasting blood glucose levels tested at 77. The reading was consistent in two tests at a short interval.

Ketones usage by the body, as already mentioned, will have an effect on what is shown on your ketostix. There are many variants here, the body's ability to use ketones as fuel, less ability possibly resulting in more waistage through urine as well as degree of hydration.

Another thing to consider is that apparently the ketones shown on the ketostix when you first enter ketosis won't be the the same type of ketones your body will end up using when fully adapted. I tried to dig up the relevant quotes from the Life without bread thread, but haven't yet manage to find them. I will keep digging though.
In any case, and if I remember correctly, it should work more or less like this: as you first enter ketosis you produce a certain type of ketones which are the ones accused in your ketostix. As your body becomes increasingly adapted to being in a state of ketosis, not only will it use ketones more efficiently, therefore less waist in urine, but it will also convert those initial ketones into a different type, and these later ketones won't show on your ketostix since the test isn't prepared to sense them. In short, a body fully accustomed to being in ketosis will stop accusing ketones on the ketostix.

Now, some of what I said may not be completely accurate as I'm writting from what I remember reading in several places, I think I got the gist of it but will try to find some quotes to back this up tomorrow.

I have been in ketosis for well over a year and initially I accused strong levels of ketones, this has gradually faded until I could barely distinguish the difference in colour between being in mild ketosis or no ketosis at all, so my experience seems to confirm the above.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

In mid-ketoadaption acetoacetate will be the primary ketone in the blood, and this is what the strips detect. Later on the muscles adapt to using acetoacetate for fuel which is then converted to beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is then used by the brain and other organs. This is what I remember.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I found this article on bone broth:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/232028-Traditional-Bone-Broth-in-Modern-Health-and-Disease

Coincidentally it mentions angiogenesis:

Cartilage has a poor blood supply. It actually produces chemicals known as antiangiogenesis factors (AAFs) that inhibit the growth of blood vessels into it. This seemingly unfortunate quality can actually be used to advantage in the fight against cancer. Cancer cells grow very rapidly. They achieve rapid proliferation by stimulating the growth of new blood vessels to support themselves. AAFs are now being used as a treatment to inhibit the growth of blood vessels into cancer cells.10 As a medicine, AAFs are given in the form of cartilage.11
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan said:
Laura said:
Megan said:
dugdeep said:
Hmmm... why would gut microbes have any access to ketone bodies? You shouldn't have any ketones in the gut unless you're directly consuming them. Ketones are primarily made in the liver and they travel through the blood stream to the various cells. I can't think of any time they would be escaping into the gut. OSIT.

It's a good question, one that I have been wondering about myself. I am still looking for answers. I am starting to go numb at the thought of reading another blog post or listening to another podcast about "gut problems."

Who sez? I mean, if there is nothing in the gut to feed them, they die; that's why most people get constipated when they cut out veggies, not because they are "missing the fiber" but because all the critters die. Heck, for people who eat carbs, most of their fecal matter is dead microbes mixed up with undigested fiber.

I don't think you would want *all* your gut microbes to die, or even just the bacteria, although at that point you probably wouldn't care any more. The bacteria can't use ketones, I don't think, but they have other sources of food. Yeast, protozoans, and such may be able to use ketones, if they can find a supply. Ketones are relatively mobile because they are water soluble.

Even if they're relatively mobile, I can't see them exiting the bloodstream to go into the gut. I have never heard of anything doing this. My understanding is that the gut is a one-way train; it only absorbs. I suppose if the ketones found their way into mucous excreting cells this would be a possibility, but this seems like a stretch.

Megan said:
That's about all I know at this point, apart from the fact that my gut bacteria have been able to adapt to any level of carb intake right down to more or less zero, and that some of them are still fermenting up a storm even though I am hardly producing any stool, resulting in the usual gas, gurgling, and gas pain. It eases when I have a bowel movement, but eating so little vegetable material prolongs the time between those, and seems to make matters worse.

Is it possible that this isn't fermentation you're experiencing, but microbe die-off? If you're on essentially zero carbs, what could be there for them to ferment?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

dugdeep said:
Is it possible that this isn't fermentation you're experiencing, but microbe die-off? If you're on essentially zero carbs, what could be there for them to ferment?

That's a really good question. Die-off should't continue for weeks. And the symptoms resemble what I have experienced all my life as far back as I can remember.

If I don't eat anything but eggs, meat, fat, and broth then the fermentation symptoms continue but the bowel movements stop. If I have one leaf of chard and a small amount of dulse, well cooked (<1 g. net carbs), for breakfast every day and a few olives 3 times a week with lunch (more or less 100% fat) then things keep moving (more or less every day or so, but small stools) and I get some relief, although the fermentation starts up again the next night while I am sleeping. So that small amount of fiber in the vegetable matter, maybe 2 gram's worth per day, would seem to be fueling the fermentation. The dulse could conceivably be a problem, but eliminating it has no effect. (I think I will eliminate it again just to be sure.)

This is encouraging in one sense, in that I actually have a little bit of control over what is happening. Most of my life the fermentation has gone on, increasing sometimes and decreasing at other times, and I couldn't find anything that seemed to affect it directly. Maybe I am getting "warm."

It's possible that I am dealing with some really nasty gut bacteria. It's unclear from the information I have been finding whether there is a dietary intervention for this kind of problem. If there is, it could take a long time. We are, however, kind of on the leading edge with regard to near-zero carb ketogenic diet, and breakthroughs are possible that nobody else knows about yet. (As are unpleasant surprise discoveries, perhaps of the sort that the "safe starch" paleo advocates warn about.)

Maybe I just need to alternate between no carbs and a few carbs for a while, like maybe one week on and one week off, or shorter period like 5 days (7 days is a long time to go with no bowel movement and fermentation byproducts building up).

An interesting thing is that these symptoms are "normal" for me and that apart from that, I am feeling pretty good. I do have bursts of energy at times, when my gut is calm. The keto-adaptation symptoms have passed. The only other concern I have is that my fasting glucose is staying in the mid 90's (down from 104 late last year). I am tracking it now and hopefully it is still headed down.

I am reading about resistance training and will be starting that shortly. That's the one piece I am missing right now.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Here is a quote of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living regarding ketones in the urine:

As noted in Chapter 1, nutritional ketosis is defined by serum ketones ranging from 0.5 up to 5 mM, depending on the amounts of dietary carbohydrate and protein consumed. In most people, the combined intake of 100 grams of carbohydrate and 100 grams of protein will drive serum ketones well below 0.5 mM. While there is nothing magical about having circulating ketones above this threshold level, it does have the practical value of providing the brain with a virtually limitless, fat-derived fuel source. This alternative fuel is eminently more sustainable, particularly in the insulin resistant or carbohydrate intolerant individual.

Within a few days of starting on carbohydrate restriction, most people begin excreting ketones in their urine. This occurs before serum ketones have risen to their stable adapted level because un-adapted renal tubules actively secrete beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate into the urine. This is the same pathway that clears other organic acids like uric acid, vitamin C, and penicillin from the serum.

Meanwhile, the body is undergoing a complex set of adaptations in ketone metabolism[99]. Beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate are made in the liver in about equal proportions, and both are initially promptly oxidized by muscle. But over a matter of weeks, the muscles stop using these ketones for fuel. Instead, muscle cells take up acetoacetate, reduce it to beta-hydroxybutyrate, and return it back into the circulation. Thus after a few weeks, the predominant form in the circulation is beta-hydroxybutyrate, which also happens to be the ketone preferred by brain cells (as an aside, the strips that test for ketones in the urine detect the presence of acetoacetate, not beta-hydroxybutyrate). The result of this process of keto-adaptation is an elegantly choreographed shuttle of fuel from fat cells to liver to muscle to brain.

In the kidney, this process of keto-adaptation is also complex. Over time, urine ketone excretion drops off, perhaps to conserve a valuable energy substrate (although urine ketone excretion never amounts to very many wasted calories). This decline in urine ketones happens over the same time-course that renal uric acid clearance returns to normal (discussed below) and thus may represent an adaptation in kidney organic acid metabolism in response to sustained carbohydrate restriction.

These temporal changes in how the kidneys handle ketones make urine ketone testing a rather uncertain if not undependable way of monitoring dietary response/adherence. Testing serum for beta-hydroxybutyrate is much more accurate but requires drawing blood, and it is expensive be¬cause it is not a routine test that doctors normally order.

A non-invasive alternative is to measure breath acetone concentration. Acetone is produced by the spontaneous (i.e., non-enzymatic) breakdown of acetoacetate. Because it is volatile, acetone comes out in expired air, and its content is linearly correlated with blood ketone levels. A number of busi-nesses have developed prototype handheld devices to measure breath ac-etone, but at the time of this writing, nothing practical is on the market.

But whatever test is used, the key question is why do it? Many people are able to initiate and follow a low carbohydrate diet just fine without ever measuring ketones. Others, however, find an objective measure of nutri-tional ketosis to be reassuring. in some clinical settings, ketone testing is used as a measure of 'diet compliance. While this may be useful in the short term to keep patients on track in a strictly regimented dietary pro¬gram, it begs the question of how that individual's diet will be managed long term. For this purpose, the handheld breath acetone monitors under development hold some promise as a guidance tool put into the hands of the individual striving to find the right level of carbohydrate intake for long-term maintenance.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Psyche said:
Here is a quote of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living regarding ketones in the urine:...

And here's their update about ketone measurement, from TAASOLCP:

Monitoring Ketones

So how do you know if your ketones are in the optimum range? A credible method to determine if you are in the right ketone zone will provide you with essential feedback on how you are responding to your diet. Ketones have typically been measured in urine, blood, or breath; and each has its advantages and disadvantages.

Urine is the most common method used to track ketosis because it is the cheapest and easiest test. Reagent strips (dipsticks) containing sodium nitroprusside dipped in urine change to varying shades of purple in proportion to the level of AcAc (and to some extent acetone) present. The degree of color change provides a semi-quantitative measure of ketone concentration in urine, but this test has been found to inaccurately reflect actual blood ketone concentrations in several studies[68]. This is because keto-adaptation involves complex changes in the way the kidneys filter blood and thus excretion of ketones. As a result, urine ketones may decrease even as blood values stay in the desirable range. Therefore, although this method is practical and relatively inexpensive, its results should be viewed with a considerable degree of caution.

Blood tests for ketones are more definitive since they measure the concentration of BOHB, AcAc, or both, where it is most important – directly in your circulation. This can be done by having your blood drawn (usually requiring a doctor’s order) and sending it to an expensive clinical laboratory. A faster and more practical method is available by means of home blood testing devices that assess BOHB in blood obtained from a finger stick. For example, Precision Xtra® (Abbott Diabetes Care, Inc) and Nova Max® Plus (Nova Biomedical) are reasonably priced devices (~$20) available ‘over-the-counter’ that can test for levels of BOHB and glucose in a matter of seconds. However, reagent strips for BOHB are relatively expensive (~$3 to 5 per strip) if purchased at retail drug stores. On eBay, however, it is possible to buy these same blood ketone strips for $1-2 each.

Even this reduced price may seem like a lot to pay to test your individual response, but this investment for a few months of testing provides valuable feedback on whether you are in the right ketone zone. Think about it: what if minor changes in your intake of carbs and/or protein could boost you from 0.4 millimolar BOHB to 2.0 millimolar? At this lower level, ketones are doing little to feed your brain or help you build muscle, whereas at or above 2.0 millimolar BOHB, both would be working strongly in your favor. Is this worth paying $20 for the test meter, $2 per test, and pricking your fingertip once per day for a month or two? Based upon our experience working with many people, we think that the answer is “yes”.

There are also devices in development that will test the concentration of acetone in breath; which in turn has been shown to correlate well with blood ketones[69]. This breath test is better than urine ketones because the lungs don’t filter the acetone. In all likelihood, one or more breath ketone analyzers will be commercially available soon. When they are, you’ll have a hand-held device that you can blow into and know your body’s ketone level in less than a minute. What will this device save you? The cost per test likely will be about the same as the Abbott device, so all you’ll save with a breath analyzer would be biting you lip and pricking a fingertip. The current bottom line: don’t hold your breath waiting for the breath analyzer.

Phinney, Stephen; Jeff Volek (2012-06-15). The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (pp. 91-93). Beyond Obesity LLC. Kindle Edition.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan said:
That's about all I know at this point, apart from the fact that my gut bacteria have been able to adapt to any level of carb intake right down to more or less zero, and that some of them are still fermenting up a storm even though I am hardly producing any stool, resulting in the usual gas, gurgling, and gas pain. It eases when I have a bowel movement, but eating so little vegetable material prolongs the time between those, and seems to make matters worse.

You may just have to persist through this. It is altogether possible, considering the gut issues you've talked about, that a lot of apoptosis and autophagy is going on there. I've certainly had some gurgling, pain, and weird stuff go on during the transition which I don't think is exactly over yet though the symptoms can change from day to day. Overall, I feel much better, even in the gut, though. When things seem a bit iffy, I just take an enzyme or oxbile. I drink a cup of mint tea every night, too. When I eat any veggies other than a small amount of lettuce, things can go south pretty fast so I've learned that this feeds something nasty that then persists for a few days, so I avoid it.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan said:
Maybe I just need to alternate between no carbs and a few carbs for a while, like maybe one week on and one week off, or shorter period like 5 days (7 days is a long time to go with no bowel movement and fermentation byproducts building up).

I found that having any carbs at all just kept the critters alive so it is way better to go zero for a few weeks and get past it. Yeah, your movements will back off to about once every few days, or even less, but if you feel uncomfortable, you can have a plain salt-water enema.

Megan said:
An interesting thing is that these symptoms are "normal" for me and that apart from that, I am feeling pretty good. I do have bursts of energy at times, when my gut is calm. The keto-adaptation symptoms have passed. The only other concern I have is that my fasting glucose is staying in the mid 90's (down from 104 late last year). I am tracking it now and hopefully it is still headed down.

I am reading about resistance training and will be starting that shortly. That's the one piece I am missing right now.

It may be that not doing the resistance part of the protocol is enabling all this to persist. Since that is the method to activate the "wild mtDNA" that is supposed to get in there and "clean house" and do the transformations.
 

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