Les Visible and Smoking Mirrors

BCii said:
Having read this thread and followed the discussion at Les' blogs, it's obvious to me that there is no black and white here, but shades of grey. No one has the objective view;

I think you've spent too long reading the discussion at Les' blogs, and not enough time reading this thread. The angle you're coming from here, is that of the legal argument - "Nobody is totally right and nobody is totally wrong; the truth lies somewhere in between."

It's an attractive idea for a person like you who "tries to see the good in all things". But it favours the liar, it favours psychopaths and narcissists and spellbinders, and it puts those who are honest and decent at a disadvantage.

BCii said:
It is my humble opinion that the heart can only lie due to the impurity it contains. All of us do carry it, so it's imperative to continually work on purifying ourselves if we want to cultivate a direct connection with spiritual truth (gnosis).

But you act as an apologist and justifier for a man who intentionally ingests toxic substances, whose personality is toxic, and who is now doing his best to infect the minds of others with his toxicity. If you believe that it's so imperative to purify yourself, you should begin with your own mind by studying psychopathy and the effect that pathological thinkers have on other people.

B said:
I read the prologue of Monkey on a Stick. All movements are subject to corruption and distortion over time, that should be obvious to anyone who has observed what happens with them. Not Les Visible and those who gather around him, nor Laura and the people here, are exempt from that. Which is why constant vigilance of both mind and heart is so paramount. Humility; sincerity; honesty; consistency; integrity of thought, word, and deed: these also are needed to keep one on the narrow path. We all fall short of these ideals. It is foolish to claim otherwise. It comes with being here on 3D Earth as a human soul. It's why we're here, to learn these things.

You're preaching to the choir here, BCii. Laura and her team are the only people who actually practice what you're talking about and because of that, they DO stay on the path that they need to walk in order to achieve what they want to achieve. Corruption and distortion are acknowledged as threats, and combined thousands of hours of study and practice have gone into making sure that there is as little chance of it as possible.

But Les just seems to prefer to 'go with the flow', which means not steering the ship of the heart with the rudder of the mind. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

(added: I wrote this at the same time as Perceval. I'm not parroting his post)
 
T.C. said:
BCii said:
Having read this thread and followed the discussion at Les' blogs, it's obvious to me that there is no black and white here, but shades of grey. No one has the objective view;

I think you've spent too long reading the discussion at Les' blogs, and not enough time reading this thread. The angle you're coming from here, is that of the legal argument - "Nobody is totally right and nobody is totally wrong; the truth lies somewhere in between."

It's an attractive idea for a person like you who "tries to see the good in all things". But it favours the liar, it favours psychopaths and narcissists and spellbinders, and it puts those who are honest and decent at a disadvantage.

BCii said:
It is my humble opinion that the heart can only lie due to the impurity it contains. All of us do carry it, so it's imperative to continually work on purifying ourselves if we want to cultivate a direct connection with spiritual truth (gnosis).

But you act as an apologist and justifier for a man who intentionally ingests toxic substances, whose personality is toxic, and who is now doing his best to infect the minds of others with his toxicity. If you believe that it's so imperative to purify yourself, you should begin with your own mind by studying psychopathy and the effect that pathological thinkers have on other people.

Yeah exactly, think about where the path that Les is on actually points towards.

BCii, if you've been around this forum long enough then you should have picked up the general state, the problems that we face in ourselves as we are. With others in a network, gathering of facts with the aim of getting as objective a view of reality as possible, then perhaps something can change for the better in us and we can be guided by others.

With lone voices, trusting their own faulty thinking, being driven by the desires of their hearts and the craving of their bodies of course there is disaster waiting to happen! What can happen other than the endless creation of lies (to the self and others) and justifications to prop up that kind of illusion? How would you know whether a lie is a lie? What faculty do we use then to discern - who you gonna call?

Consider where that path goes, what kind of evolution if any might come of it. A clue: Consider what or who Laura spends the greater part of each and every day serving. Consider the same in LV, what or who he spends the greater part of each day serving. Ponder what each are teaching others by example, notice any differences?
 
Perceval said:
You said it better than I!

Have to disagree Perceval; both posts were well thought out and formulated.

When I arrived at this forum some 15 months ago, I also felt a need to "test the water" of the forum as to how they would react to similar thoughts as you are presenting BCii, and in my opinion they walk their talk as good as humanly possible.

The facts of this case as they are presented, in my opinion leave little room for doubt as to who it is who tries to self-observe and develop, and thereby avoiding magical thinking and self-aggrandizement.

And on the other hand, Les' take on this, which seems to be played by the heart, spontaneously, where the matter of importance seems to be never to admit to self-doubt about own behaviour, but instead push further on when challenged.

This to me seems to be similar to the reactions of a teenager who has just discovered that he/she can do what they want, as long as they stand up for it afterwards and shows no regret.

It is a hallmark of immature political movements with quick solutions, and also of the religious movements. A kind of hysterical solace found in the fact that it is always possible to avoid being held responsible by "going for the whole hog" (including postage? doubt it).

It can look to be an inspiring act of bravery, but as teens grow up most of them realize that there's more to life than being rebellious.
 
Thank you all for your honesty and civility toward this newcomer thus far. Yes, I registered in November 2008, but I have only read a few discussion threads (perhaps ten) in all this time. I was, you could say, impressed and intrigued when I first encountered and read the Wave series. It was a very fresh and enlightening, if also very challenging, perspective and reading experience for me at the time. I was 24 then, now 26.

I have no doubt that spending time here among you discussing topics of mutual interest would sharpen my reason and discernment. I would have the chance be corrected in my tendencies toward lazy thinking. But I find the thought of that route too tiring. I don't believe I have the spiritual and mental stamina for it. Also, I am easily enough influenced by the energies of others that the strong collective here might quickly either sweep me along (doubtful) or overwhelm me to the point of exhaustion and claustrophobia. Time is short; choices have to be made. This is not the place for me in the long run, I'm too much of a mystic and a child. Nevertheless, you all have my very best wishes for your quest for truth.

I see the validity of the points presented in these last few posts, and cannot refute it. But I can say that how LV and his way are perceived here is not the entire picture as I see it. I suppose I might as well mention here what I also posted at Visible Origami, about the dream I had before this all exploded into the public scene over there (which Les himself started, for whatever reason) and before I was ever introduced to this thread. The dream was very basic, more emotional/archetypal, so not much detail level was retained. Someone from this group (maybe a dream representative of the group as a whole, although it did feel like one individual; still, I'd hesitate to say it was any actual, real-life member) was criticizing Les, making points that I myself would probably not have thought of on my own. There was validity to most of the person's arguments, which I was able to recognize also intellectually but mostly by intuition (which is how I tend to operate, for better or for worse). I also felt that the person didn't "get" Les and never would, and that that was just how it was and perfectly OK. I don't claim to "get" him myself, but I do resonate with him a lot of the time. (It's possible the dream was simply a pre-echo of the personal thoughts/experiences that later came about through my examining this unfortunate but inevitable series of events.)

Pashalis, I do believe in God. I relate to her mostly in the feminine aspect these days, as Gaia-Sophia and Kali the destroyer of demons/illusions, the divine mother. I take a pluralistic approach, gathering many differing perspectives and using whatever feels most fitting in the moment, even if there are apparent contradictions between them (which, I believe, are resolved as one approaches truth holistically). It's a chaotic path on the one hand, but there's a logic to it in retrospect. It's what works for me and I'd be crazy to assume it might work for anyone else.

Les admits to being twelve years old, so his immaturity in some respects is not a point of contention. I'm about two years old myself. I've used cannabis on occasion and found it a very powerful catalyst not only in itself through its effects, but also through the process of self-questioning and learning responsibility that it brings with it. Haven't smoked it in a while, and agree in principle that real spiritual growth requires a sober state of mind. Still, I allow in general for the possibility of mind-altering substances as catalyst. I took LSD once and didn't regret the trip itself at all - but the month of social isolation imposed by my loved ones, who absolutely do not condone drug use, as a consequence, was of equal or greater teaching significance. Psychedelic drug use will get no recommendation by me for anyone, but people's choices are their own. I have no great personal desire to meet Les in person, and I think the disharmony that resulted from his visit to the chateau is understandable simply based on the differences in basic philosophy between you and him. I have no opinion on whether he behaved inappropriately; I wasn't there, and so much depends on a person's concept of what is appropriate. The difference in accounts is sharp enough that one side or the other, or both, must be distorting what happened to some degree. Les I can't fully trust because his psyche is most likely fractured, and I'm sorry to say, there appear (in my newbie eyes) to be individuals here who seemingly relish interpreting every possible detail as evidence of dangerous pathology. We're all sick; we wouldn't be here otherwise. Fault-finding is OK, but it needs to be done neutrally, without personal satisfaction, with love. It's possible that some have become attached to the notion that the whole world-out-there is somehow against SOTT, and inadvertently then create their own enemies just by operating from that overly defensive paradigm. Not saying that's how it is, just that it's possible. Also possible that such a paradigm would appear completely transparent, justified and internally consistent to one who sees the world through it.

I am putting a lot of energy into this. It will be interesting to see where it goes. Nowhere, yes, but in what way it goes there and what I can learn/teach along the way is what interests. I urge anyone who finds this all a waste of energy not to feed it any further and just walk away and let it be. I will do the same when I am ready.
 
T.C. said:
It's an attractive idea for a person like you who "tries to see the good in all things". But it favours the liar, it favours psychopaths and narcissists and spellbinders, and it puts those who are honest and decent at a disadvantage.

CRITICISM
....I urge upon all those who read these instruction to forget their likes and their dislikes and to overlook the personality hindrances which inevitably exist in themselves and in all who work upon the physical plane,handicapped by the personality. I urge upon all workers the remembrance that the day of oportunity will not last forever.The pettiness of the human frictions,the failures to understand each other,the little faults that have there roots in the personality and which are, after all ephemeral,the ambitions and illusions must all go. If the workers would practise detachment,knowing that the law works, and that Gods purpose must come to an ultimate concludion,and if they would learn never to criticize in thought or word,the salvaging of the world would proceed apace, and the new age of love and illumination would be ushered in.
One of the major faults of disciples today,is the paying of too close attention to the faults,errors and activities of other disciples, and too little attention to their own fulfilment of the law of love, and to their own dharma and work.......Alice A Bailey

I say Woof Woof to BCii and love thy neighbour as thyself(if you dont love yourself you dont love your neighbour]

Mod's note: Edited to fix the quotation boxes.
 
ryan1942,

That is an excellent reminder. Thank you.

To all,

I'm ready to disengage. Didn't take long. Part of the reason I dipped my foot in this discussion was to just process my own thoughts and make them known at the same time. Still, there was an element of self-importance ("look at me, I have something to say too!") and sticking my cold, wet little nose into affairs that don't concern me to begin with. I release you from having to endure any more of my uninvited and unqualified opinions on this matter. :)
 
ryan1942 said:
CRITICISM
......Alice A Bailey
Rrright, You might want to do some research on that tripe BS before You use it on this forum.

ryan1942 said:
I say Woof Woof to BCii and love thy neighbour as thyself(if you dont love yourself you dont love your neighbour]
How old are You anyway, learn to talk!
 
BCii said:
ryan1942,

That is an excellent reminder. Thank you.

To all,

I'm ready to disengage. Didn't take long. Part of the reason I dipped my foot in this discussion was to just process my own thoughts and make them known at the same time. Still, there was an element of self-importance ("look at me, I have something to say too!") and sticking my cold, wet little nose into affairs that don't concern me to begin with. I release you from having to endure any more of my uninvited and unqualified opinions on this matter. :)

By the looks of it You are companion trolls... or dogs.
 
clerck de bonk said:
BCii said:
ryan1942,

That is an excellent reminder. Thank you.

To all,

I'm ready to disengage. Didn't take long. Part of the reason I dipped my foot in this discussion was to just process my own thoughts and make them known at the same time. Still, there was an element of self-importance ("look at me, I have something to say too!") and sticking my cold, wet little nose into affairs that don't concern me to begin with. I release you from having to endure any more of my uninvited and unqualified opinions on this matter. :)

By the looks of it You are companion trolls... or dogs.

I think that's way too harsh, Clerk. There is no reason to call anyone a dog, especially when their posts were polite and articulate, but just articulating a different point of view.
 
Mr. Premise said:
I think that's way too harsh, Clerk. There is no reason to call anyone a dog, especially when their posts were polite and articulate, but just articulating a different point of view.

Yes, my apologies to both. I didn't remember it can be so derogative a word in english.

Edit: I did wrong to canines comparing You to them.
 
ryan1942 said:
the new age of love and illumination would be ushered in.

IMHO... Sometimes I too, am still a child in my mind. I was a young studly in the late '60s & into the 70's. Was involved with the mind expanding free love schtuff. Numerous times I understood the wisdom of the universe, with the help of artificial ingredients... And the was fun. :D :D :D
But tell ya what, I think I've somewhat matured in "seeing" just what is going on here on this BBM we cohabitate, and it ain't no Love-In. In other words, methinks your may be a tad off in your perceptions here. All that luvin' since the 60's has not ushered in any new age of love, that I "see". Actually, things here are have grown even more evil that could have been imagined and I think you may have walked into the wrong bar...
;) ;) ;)
 
ryan1942 said:
It's an attractive idea for a person like you who "tries to see the good in all things". But it favours the liar, it favours psychopaths and narcissists and spellbinders, and it puts those who are honest and decent at a disadvantage.

CRITICISM
....I urge upon all those who read these instruction to forget their likes and their dislikes and to overlook the personality hindrances which inevitably exist in themselves and in all who work upon the physical plane,handicapped by the personality. I urge upon all workers the remembrance that the day of oportunity will not last forever.The pettiness of the human frictions,the failures to understand each other,the little faults that have there roots in the personality and which are, after all ephemeral,the ambitions and illusions must all go. If the workers would practise detachment,knowing that the law works, and that Gods purpose must come to an ultimate concludion,and if they would learn never to criticize in thought or word,the salvaging of the world would proceed apace, and the new age of love and illumination would be ushered in.
One of the major faults of disciples today,is the paying of too close attention to the faults,errors and activities of other disciples, and too little attention to their own fulfilment of the law of love, and to their own dharma and work.......Alice A Bailey

I say Woof Woof to BCii and love thy neighbour as thyself(if you dont love yourself you dont love your neighbour]


More new age love and light "we're all one" nonsense. When are you and all who think like you going to grasp the basic idea that thinking we are all one when there is CLEAR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that the masses of normal human beings share this planet with an intraspecies predator aka the psychopath. Do a little actual research for a change (rather than navel gazing) and you might actually learn something of real use, not only to you but to those you profess to love and care about. Alternatively, just continue to skip merrily on down the path of lies, personal hubris and illusion.
 
clerck de bonk said:
By the looks of it You are companion trolls... or dogs.

You call me a dog well that's fair enough
'Cause it ain't no use to pretend
You're wrong
When you call me out I can't hide anymore
I have no disguise you can't see through

Well you say it's bad luck
To have fallen for me
Well what can I do to make it good for you
You wore me out like an old winter coat
Trying to be safe from the cold

But when it's my time to throw
The next stone
I'll call you beautiful if I call at all

You call me a dog

You tell me I'm low 'cause I've slept on the floor
And out in the woods with the badgers & wolves
You threw me out 'cause I went digging for gold
And I came home with a handful of coal

But when it's my time to throw the next stone
I'll call you beautiful if I call at all
And when it's my time to call your bluff
I'll call you beautiful or leave it alone
You call me a dog
Well that's fair enough
It doesn't bother me as long as you know
Bad luck will follow you
If you keep me on a leash and
You drag me along


and when it's my time to throw
The next stone
I'll call you beautiful if I call at all
And when it's my time to call your bluff
I'll call you beautiful or leave it alone

You call me a dog


Mod's note: Edited to fix the quotation boxes.
 

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