"Life Without Bread"

[Muxel]

I'd like to refute Laura's stance on butyrate/butter ("colonocytes need butyrate as food").

But first let me pick apart this article:

[quote author="Stephan Guyenet | Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance | http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html"]
Susceptible strains of rodents fed high-fat diets overeat, gain fat and become profoundly insulin resistant. Dr. Jianping Ye's group recently published a paper showing that the harmful metabolic effects of a high-fat diet (lard and soybean oil) on mice can be prevented, and even reversed, using a short-chain saturated fatty acid called butyric acid (hereafter, butyrate).
[/quote]
Lard is mostly unsaturated fat, and soybean oil is evil. Thus the rodents aren't exactly enjoying Inuit-grade food. Also, rodents eat veggies, not fat! WTF. This negates the whole study!
[quote author="Stephan Guyenet | Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance | http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html"]
In most animals, the highest concentration of butyrate is found in the gut. That's because it's produced by intestinal bacteria from carbohydrate that the host cannot digest, such as cellulose and pectin. Indigestible carbohydrate is the main form of dietary fiber.

It turns out, butyrate has been around in the mammalian gut for so long that the lining of our large intestine has evolved to use it as its primary source of energy. It does more than just feed the bowel, however. It also has potent anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer effects. So much so, that investigators are using oral butyrate supplements and butyrate enemas to treat inflammatory bowel diseases such as Crohn's and ulcerative colitis. Investigators are also suggesting that inflammatory bowel disorders may be caused or exacerbated by a deficiency of butyrate in the first place.
[/quote]
Omg see?!! Butyrate appears to be an ADAPTATION to a high-fiber diet, not something inherently natural to Paleo people. Colonocytes bascially learned how to feed on fermentation byproducts of gut bacteria that eat fiber! (Why these gut bacteria are there in the first place is another question. I didn't know we had gut bacteria that could partially feed on cellulose and produce butyrate as waste....that sounds more like something belonging to a cow's gut. Proof that agro turns us into cows?)
[quote author="Stephan Guyenet | Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance | http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html"]
Butyrate's role doesn't end in the gut. It's absorbed into the circulation, and may exert effects on the rest of the body as well. In human blood immune cells, butyrate is potently anti-inflammatory***.
[/quote]
And now we see why fiber-eating humans have certain gut bacteria that produce butyrates from fiber. It's a symbiosis brought about by agro. The humans that didn't have those gut bacteria would've died off because they wouldn't have been able to make butyrates, and would've been 100% susceptible to all the inflammatory effects of eating agro crap!
[quote author="Stephan Guyenet | Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance | http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html"]
There are two main ways to get butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids. The first is to eat fiber and let your intestinal bacteria do the rest. Whole plant foods such as sweet potatoes, properly prepared whole grains, beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts are good sources of fiber. Refined foods such as white flour, white rice and sugar are very low in fiber. Clinical trials have shown that increasing dietary fiber increases butyrate production, and decreasing fiber decreases it (free full text).

Butyrate also occurs in significant amounts in food. What foods contain butyrate? Hmm, I wonder where the name BUTYR-ate came from? Butter perhaps? Butter is 3-4 percent butyrate, the richest known source. But everyone knows butter is bad for you, right?
[/quote]
We've covered the fiber part. If you're not eating fiber, you don't need butyrate. This is along the lines of "you don't need such-and-such probiotics to help you digest poisonous things you shouldn't be eating anyway". Butter is "significant" because it has 3—4% butyrate? Do you know how tiny 3—4% IS? Disinfo, disinfo....
[quote author="Stephan Guyenet | Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance | http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html"]
After thinking about it, I've decided that butyrate must have been a principal component of Dr. Weston Price's legendary butter oil. Price used this oil in conjunction with high-vitamin cod liver oil to heal tooth decay and a number of other ailments in his patients. The method he used to produce it would have concentrated fats with a low melting temperature, including butyrate, in addition to vitamin K2*****. Thus, the combination of high-vitamin cod liver oil and butter oil would have provided a potent cocktail of fat-soluble vitamins (A, D3, K2), omega-3 fatty acids and butyrate. It's no wonder it was so effective in his patients.
[/quote]
Uh, no. The only potent thing here was the high-vit cod liver oil (great stuff BTW). The butter oil only served to provide butyrate, because Weston Price's patients were on agro diets and probably not getting enough fiber to synthesize their own butyrate. (Taking them off agro completely would've worked better, but butyrate boosts were practical for short-term relief from inflammation etc.)


Done. Okay, so what are butyrates? Chemistry people here would know it's an ester. Esters are the compounds that make fruits smell "nice". For example, bananas smell like bananas because of the ester isoamyl acetate. Fermented stuff like wines smell like "wine" because of the esters produced. Note the trend here? Agro/plant stuff > leads to / associated with > esters.

Are esters the same as ketones? No. Shouldn't our colonocytes be eating ketones and not esters? Thus, butyrate is a sham.

 

[Laura]

You are missing the big picture, Muxel. Nobody nowadays is fully adapted to the paleo diet - we are all just doing the best we can with systems that are set up by epigenetics. You can't just turn that stuff off. Notice Forge's experience a couple posts back. Butter did for him what it does for a lot of people.

However, I think some of our science people should look into it.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Butter has been shown to improve cognition and memory. There's a video on Vimeo (Ancestry) and YouTube.

 

[Oxajil]

Muxel, first of all: chillax. I sense quite some emotion coming from your post.

(Why these gut bacteria are there in the first place is another question. I didn't know we had gut bacteria that could partially feed on cellulose and produce butyrate as waste....that sounds more like something belonging to a cow's gut. Proof that agro turns us into cows?)

Not necessarily so. Before agro, the consumption of small amounts of plants, which were fermented or cooked beforehand, may cause for the same production of butyrate, but without all the detriments caused by overconsumption of fiber.

And now we see why fiber-eating humans have certain gut bacteria that produce butyrates from fiber. It's a symbiosis brought about by agro. The humans that didn't have those gut bacteria would've died off because they wouldn't have been able to make butyrates, and would've been 100% susceptible to all the inflammatory effects of eating agro crap!

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a symbiosis brought about by agro. There could be many possibilities that brought it about. The thing is, that a great amount of fiber, carbohydrates and other evil stuff overthrows the system. Other intestinal flora might become dominant, and the friendly bacteria will be in the minority. If the intestinal flora system is imbalanced (and it has been proven that diet changes the intestinal flora), then the question becomes whether any protective mechanisms designed in the body will be sufficient to restore balance, including the butyrate production that's produced from consuming undigestible carbohydrates.

And, perhaps people on a long term High Fat Low Carb diet might be more adapted to making butyrate with very little fiber. The small amount of fiber would be enough to feed the friendly bacteria, and the produced butyrate carries out its beneficial functions. That's just a thought, though.

If you consume butter, once the gut is healed, you can increase your butyrate concentration, which will continue to protect the gut/colon (which I think is handy, since we daily face with all kinds of toxins, much more than before). There wouldn't be the excessive amount of fiber which irritates the colon, etc. Thus, this way, butyrate might do its job undisturbed.

This is along the lines of "you don't need such-and-such probiotics to help you digest poisonous things you shouldn't be eating anyway". Butter is "significant" because it has 3—4% butyrate? Do you know how tiny 3—4% IS? Disinfo, disinfo....

I don't really understand this question. How do you know what amount of butyrate is approx. sufficient for the human body? Perhaps 3-4% is more than sufficient.

Are esters the same as ketones? No. Shouldn't our colonocytes be eating ketones and not esters? Thus, butyrate is a sham.

Don't understand this also. Why should esters be the same as ketones? Butyrate has its own functions and plays its own role in the human body.

And I wouldn't say butyrate is a sham. Sciencists can be misleading, they look into butyrate to use it as another excuse to tell people to eat more fiber, while fiber itself in the amount that it is advised isn't beneficial at all to the human body (Read: Fiber Menace). The point is that butyrate is beneficial, that's all they have proved. And so they can't say ''Okay, so butyrate has all these benefits and since it is produced by eating fiber, y'all should eat lots of fiber'', because they aren't looking at (or rather mentioning) the other impacts that fiber can have. With butter it's the same story, people can't consume it if they're very sensitive to it, due to casein traces. The gut needs to be healed and then tested to see if it can be consumed. Concerning lots of fiber, that's just not good for you as evidence has shown, so that's a no-go.

What you can do to see what works best for people, is to take a look at people who consume lots of fiber, and you'll see that they have all kinds of gut and colon problems. Whereas, if you look at people on a Paleo diet, people who consume small amounts of fiber (the products consumed being either cooked or fermented beforehand etc.) and who also eat loads of fats, including butter, no gut and colon problems are seen. So you can conclude that butyrate isn't the issue here, it's about what is being consumed, in what form, in what quantities, etc.

For what it's worth.

 

[Muxel]

To All: I'd like to correct/clarify my statement that "butyrate = ester". Butyrate is the "traditional name" for the conjugate base of a carboxylic acid. The carboxylic acid is butanoic acid (also known as butyric acid), which is considered a short-chain fatty acid. (Short chain because it only has 4 carbons.) Conjugate bases do not usually exist alone, because they are "unstable". So, they form bonds with other molecules. A butyrate conjugate base bonds with a sodium ion to form sodium butanoate. Butanoic acid reacts with ethanol in a process called esterification to produce ethyl butanoate (commonly known as ethyl butyrate).

Confusion abounds because most online sources use "butyrate" when they actually mean butanoic acid. Also, butanoic acid is very quickly converted to an ester through binding with an organic compound (that has at least one hydroxyl group). In my previous post I incorrectly used "butyrate" to refer to any ester derived from butanoic acid. "Butyrate" is a convenient umbrella term because it represents only the conjugate base portion, which is the defining component of whatever compound contains it, be it ester or carboxylic acid.

Edit: A carboxylate is the salt/ester of a carboxylic acid. So, strictly speaking, butyrate is the salt/ester of butyric acid.

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Hi Oxajil,

Our arguments are irreconcilable because I am working on the premise that butyrates are unnecessary, and you are working on the premise that butyrates are beneficial & necessary. However I shall attempt a reply:

Not necessarily so. Before agro, the consumption of small amounts of plants, which were fermented or cooked beforehand, may cause for the same production of butyrate, but without all the detriments caused by overconsumption of fiber.

True, fermenting veggies prior to consumption is healther. My statement referred to agro people having certain bacteria in their guts that did the same thing. The conclusion I drew was, the presence of these bacteria was an adaptation to the agro diet.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a symbiosis brought about by agro. There could be many possibilities that brought it about. The thing is, that a great amount of fiber, carbohydrates and other evil stuff overthrows the system. Other intestinal flora might become dominant, and the friendly bacteria will be in the minority. If the intestinal flora system is imbalanced (and it has been proven that diet changes the intestinal flora), then the question becomes whether any protective mechanisms designed in the body will be sufficient to restore balance, including the butyrate production that's produced from consuming undigestible carbohydrates.

This is exactly my point. The "protective mechanism" was the symbiotic bacteria that broke fiber down into butyrates, and our colonocytes learning how to use butyrates as fuel, also meaning butyrates were absorbed by the colon into the bloodstream where they could work their anti-inflammatory magic.

And, perhaps people on a long term High Fat Low Carb diet might be more adapted to making butyrate with very little fiber. The small amount of fiber would be enough to feed the friendly bacteria, and the produced butyrate carries out its beneficial functions. That's just a thought, though.

I don't think so. Butyrate is a metabolite of fiber, so it is directly proportional to fiber intake. A decrease in fiber intake would accordingly reduce the bacteria population.

If you consume butter, once the gut is healed, you can increase your butyrate concentration, which will continue to protect the gut/colon (which I think is handy, since we daily face with all kinds of toxins, much more than before). There wouldn't be the excessive amount of fiber which irritates the colon, etc. Thus, this way, butyrate might do its job undisturbed.

Yes, this is why Weston Price attempted to give a "pure" source of butyrate to his patients, sans fiber.

I don't really understand this question. How do you know what amount of butyrate is approx. sufficient for the human body? Perhaps 3-4% is more than sufficient.

I don't know how much butyrate is sufficient (assuming it's even necessary). If our colon cells feed on butyrate, then we need a good amount of it, no? Let's take the average colon to be 4.5 feet long, with a diameter of 2.5 inches. The colon plays a big role in reabsorption of nutrients & water. The colon needs a lot of energy to do that. I don't think a few tablespoons of butter would provide enough butyrates for our colon. Apparently low-carbers(not Paleo) eat large amounts of butter to get their butyrate fix. Also, Weston Price didn't use regular butter:

The program that I have found most efficient has been one which includes the use of small quantities of very high vitamin butter mixed in equal parts with a very high vitamin cod liver oil. A simple method of preparing the butter is by melting it and allowing it to cool for twenty-four hours at a temperature of about 70° F., then centrifugalizing it which provides an oil that remains liquid at room temperature. When this butter oil is mixed in equal parts with a very high-vitamin cod liver oil, it produces a product that is more efficient than either alone.

Weston Price used only small quantities of his butter oil because it had gone through a long process that, we can infer, isolated the butyrates in high concentrations.

Don't understand this also. Why should esters be the same as ketones? Butyrate has its own functions and plays its own role in the human body.

I meant that since ketones should be the primary fuel of our body, it doesn't make sense that our colon cells "apparently" use butyrates as fuel.

And I wouldn't say butyrate is a sham. Sciencists can be misleading, they look into butyrate to use it as another excuse to tell people to eat more fiber, while fiber itself in the amount that it is advised isn't beneficial at all to the human body (Read: Fiber Menace). The point is that butyrate is beneficial, that's all they have proved.

This is part of the sham. Them using butyrates to justify fiber, when really butyrates are a metabolite of (indigestible) fiber that help people "tolerate" fiber in the first place.

What you can do to see what works best for people, is to take a look at people who consume lots of fiber, and you'll see that they have all kinds of gut and colon problems. Whereas, if you look at people on a Paleo diet, people who consume small amounts of fiber (the products consumed being either cooked or fermented beforehand etc.) and who also eat loads of fats, including butter, no gut and colon problems are seen. So you can conclude that butyrate isn't the issue here, it's about what is being consumed, in what form, in what quantities, etc.

Yes, fermenting veggies before eating would break down (indigestible) fiber into butyrates if the right bacteria are present. This is surely safer than eating veggies as-is and have the whole fermentation process occur inside of you. But, the end result is the same: you get a certain amount of fiber + butyrates.

 

[SeekinTruth]

What about other substances that incorporate butyric acid? Such as GABA (Gamma Aminobutyirc Acid) which is an inhibitory (calming) neurotransmitter? It seems the body may have several uses for this substance such as the example of synthesizing GABA.

 

[Laura]

"Feeding" a cell, and what the cell uses as an energy source might be different. The point is, as I've already mentioned, a lot goes on in our bodies as a result of epigenetic changes due to the diets of our parents and grandparents and we have to play the hand we are dealt. When people have messed up colons after years and years of wrong eating, if there is anything that helps it to heal, that's not a bad thing even if that system was established during a period when the colon needed constant protection against the irritating agent.

During the time that I couldn't tolerate butter at all because my gut was till seriously leaky, I took butyrate capsules. I'm really glad I don't have to take them anymore because the smell is totally vile.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Lard is mostly unsaturated fat,

Typo?

 

[liffy]

Lard is mostly unsaturated fat,

Typo?

From nutritiondata:

Lard
Of 100 grams total
Saturated Fat 39.2g
Monounsaturated Fat 45.1g
Polyunsaturated Fat 11.2g

 

[Oxajil]

Doing the diet for some time now has done wonders to my brain, as I can concentrate much better and can remember things much better etc. Lately I've made an observation I'd like to share.

Some days ago, I actually wanted to do some translating because I had the time, but instead I was doing some useless stuff. I knew I was doing useless stuff, and I didn't really want to do so, but still I continued. On a level I was suffering, and I knew, because I didn't feel so well and I could feel a headache was coming up. Though, I still continued doing what I was doing, even though I had a feeling that I had to stop and think. Soon enough, I had developed such a painful headache that just wouldn't go away no matter what I did, it was so bad that I had to take a painkiller! I couldn't do anything but to just lie in my bed and try to sleep.

As I was lying in my bed, contemplating and meditating about what happened, it became clear to me that I have to make up my mind to what I want to do, and make it a conscious choice. This way, my mind wouldn't be occupied chaotically by all kinds of thought patterns floating around and bumping into each other. Because I could sense that there was a battle going on inside of my head, between my aim and what I'm doing instead, and all other kinds of thoughts. Pretty chaotic.

So now I've been practicing doing what I want, by considering my options, and trying to make a conscious choice. So far, the headache I experienced hasn't come back, and I'm more clear and concentrated on the task I'm choosing to do fully. In other words, what I think is going on, is that my head has become so sensitive that it can tell me when too much is going on in my head, the experience has helped me to realize that I need to pay attention, clear out my mind and DO what I want - so basically I'm learning 'to make up my mind' and to not fool myself, trying to be more honest with myself.

It's difficult in some ways, but I'm glad to have come to the realization of how straineous it can be for the mind/head, when I do something I don't want to do.

 

[beetlemaniac]

It's difficult in some ways, but I'm glad to have come to the realization of how straineous it can be for the mind/head, when I do something I don't want to do.

What I am thinking is that it could be that your mind is handling it's issues without resorting to dissociation thereby avoiding the pain. Instead it forces you to face yourself honestly and make the choice. fwiw.

 

[SeekinTruth]

That's an interesting observation, Oxajil. What you've described is an effective part of the Work, but you seem to be implying that it is becoming enhanced by the diet -- more sensitive AND better concentration.

I also agree about better memory and concentration on this diet. I've been on the diet since spring of 2011 (earlier, but that's when I brought the carbs below 20 grams) and immediately noticed the improvements, both in the process of increasing fat and decreasing carbs. I've always had a very good memory, but in my 40's it wasn't what it used to be up to my 30's. Now there's a big improvement and the ability to concentrate for very long periods of time, as well.

 

[Mountain Crown]

From nutritiondata:

Lard
Of 100 grams total
Saturated Fat 39.2g
Monounsaturated Fat 45.1g
Polyunsaturated Fat 11.2g

Thanks liffy. For some reason I always thought it was the other way around.

 

[Oxajil]

What I am thinking is that it could be that your mind is handling it's issues without resorting to dissociation thereby avoiding the pain. Instead it forces you to face yourself honestly and make the choice. fwiw.

Yea that's what I was thinking as well. Interestingly, it works the same way with interacting with others. I keep reminding myself to do things differently and to not fall back to old habits. For example, if a family member would ask me to help, I'd soon get irritated and not be very helpful, and soon enough I would get sad of why I reacted that way, I tried to view myself from their point of view and got a pretty mean view of the person I am. Like the impact of sadness has increased somehow, and it works as an inspiration to do things differently, so now I try to be more kind and helpful, and so far it's been going well.

That's an interesting observation, Oxajil. What you've described is an effective part of the Work, but you seem to be implying that it is becoming enhanced by the diet -- more sensitive AND better concentration.

I also agree about better memory and concentration on this diet. I've been on the diet since spring of 2011 (earlier, but that's when I brought the carbs below 20 grams) and immediately noticed the improvements, both in the process of increasing fat and decreasing carbs. I've always had a very good memory, but in my 40's it wasn't what it used to be up to my 30's. Now there's a big improvement and the ability to concentrate for very long periods of time, as well.

Great, isn't it? :D

 

[MK Scarlett]

Doing the diet for some time now has done wonders to my brain, as I can concentrate much better and can remember things much better etc. Lately I've made an observation I'd like to share.

So now I've been practicing doing what I want, by considering my options, and trying to make a conscious choice. So far, the headache I experienced hasn't come back, and I'm more clear and concentrated on the task I'm choosing to do fully. In other words, what I think is going on, is that my head has become so sensitive that it can tell me when too much is going on in my head, the experience has helped me to realize that I need to pay attention, clear out my mind and DO what I want - so basically I'm learning 'to make up my mind' and to not fool myself, trying to be more honest with myself.

It's difficult in some ways, but I'm glad to have come to the realization of how straineous it can be for the mind/head, when I do something I don't want to do.

In the almost same situation, I also noticed the same thing with my own brain, and as you I am trying to make a conscious choice for anything I want to do, read, understand, etc.

so basically I'm learning 'to make up my mind' and to not fool myself, trying to be more honest with myself.

Surely the most important work for me at this time!

So thank you for sharing your own experience Oxajil which helps to better understand mine.