"Life Without Bread"

[truth seeker]

This is excellent news, Gimpy! I had a patient in my office on Monday, who has MS and is in a wheelchair. I asked her if she had an email and if she would be interested in some articles on how to improve her MS with diet. She said yes and gave me her email. The same day, I emailed the articles, only to have it returned as UNDELIVERABLE. I was stunned, the woman gave me a bogus email! I guess some folks love their own misery.

I wonder if it's possible that she gave the wrong email by accident, as in leaving out one letter? Perhaps if/when you see her again, ask if it she could double check it? Just a thought.

 

[Gertrudes]

This is excellent news, Gimpy! I had a patient in my office on Monday, who has MS and is in a wheelchair. I asked her if she had an email and if she would be interested in some articles on how to improve her MS with diet. She said yes and gave me her email. The same day, I emailed the articles, only to have it returned as UNDELIVERABLE. I was stunned, the woman gave me a bogus email! I guess some folks love their own misery.

I wonder if it's possible that she gave the wrong email by accident, as in leaving out one letter? Perhaps if/when you see her again, ask if it she could double check it? Just a thought.

Or she could be having problems with her mailbox being too full, or the server itself. I have had that happening to me before.

I think we might be overlooking the obvious here - it's probably the caffeine. Caffeine is a stimulant and may have a positive effect on mood in the short term in some people.

To be honest, I'm pretty skeptical of the whole caffeinated tea thing. Caffeine is a plant defense mechanism, a neurostimulant that I don't think is very good for humans. Maybe the beneficial anti-inflammatory effects of tea outweigh the negatives from caffeine. That's certainly possible. But given how good I felt after getting off coffee and my continued difficulty with the habit-forming tendencies of dark chocolate, I'm going to issue a "be careful" warning in regards to black tea.

Just my 2 cents.

Speaking for myself, I have indeed noticed quite a difference since having started with my fish and cod liver oil.
About the caffeine...I know what you mean. I have been completely off caffeine for about 2 years, and have restarted black and green tea about 3 months ago. I do love both, but am also a bit concerned about the caffeine and am not sure of what to think about it. I haven't done much research about it yet, and have been simply observing its effects on my body.

 

[Oxajil]

This is excellent news, Gimpy! I had a patient in my office on Monday, who has MS and is in a wheelchair. I asked her if she had an email and if she would be interested in some articles on how to improve her MS with diet. She said yes and gave me her email. The same day, I emailed the articles, only to have it returned as UNDELIVERABLE. I was stunned, the woman gave me a bogus email! I guess some folks love their own misery.

I wonder if it's possible that she gave the wrong email by accident, as in leaving out one letter? Perhaps if/when you see her again, ask if it she could double check it? Just a thought.

Yes, and if she did give you a false e-mail, I personally wouldn't say it's because she loves her own misery, atleast not in this context. There is so much (alternative) health information available, with every source saying a different thing, that it can make people become sceptical and just decide to continue with their own thing. Not saying you shouldn't give advice, I think that's a good thing, as long as it happens non-anticipatory and with respect to free will. Working in a bio-store, I once wrote down a title of a health book for a customer who was interested, but the next time he came, he didn't mention anything about it, so I didn't either, we just chatted about other things.

It's just the little things we can do, and if it works, it works, and if it doesn't I wouldn't say it's necessarily because they just don't want to get better. There are so many other programs and beliefs at work that could play a role. I mean, why would they think my advice could help? So one way, it depends on the person receiving the message, and another way, it depends on the person who's giving advice and his/her approach of doing so. And I'm thinking that all we can do is to be as understanding as we can be, practice external consideration, and to not anticipate in the process.

One way to help people realize the truth on health is to give lectures and to maybe have a guest who has been through the same disease that others have been through, and who has healed by the steps taken. That same guest could give advice to the lecturer on how to approach the people with such a disease the best way. Just an example to point out that I think that sometimes it takes more to convince people of what's really going on in our bodies and what is best for us. Fwiw.

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Gertrudes] and have restarted black and green tea about 3 months ago.[/quote]

FYI to tea drinkers on the forum:

[quote author=Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University]
Fluoride Content of Teas

Type of Tea Fluoride (mg/liter)*
Green 1.2-1.7
Oolong 0.6-1.0
Black 1.0-1.9
Brick tea 2.2-7.3

*Fluoride in 1% weight/volume tea prepared by continuous infusion from 5 to 360 minutes

_http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/tea/
[/quote]

[quote author=California Department of Public Health] You may be aware that on January 7, 2011, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Agency (HHS) announced a proposal recommending that water systems practicing fluoridation adjust their fluoride content to 0.7 mg/L (parts per million), as opposed to the previous temperature-dependent optimal levels ranging from 0.7 mg/L to 1.2 mg/L.

_http://www.cdph.ca.gov/certlic/drinkingwater/pages/fluoridation.aspx[/quote]

 

[dugdeep]

I think we might be overlooking the obvious here - it's probably the caffeine. Caffeine is a stimulant and may have a positive effect on mood in the short term in some people.

To be honest, I'm pretty skeptical of the whole caffeinated tea thing. Caffeine is a plant defense mechanism, a neurostimulant that I don't think is very good for humans. Maybe the beneficial anti-inflammatory effects of tea outweigh the negatives from caffeine. That's certainly possible. But given how good I felt after getting off coffee and my continued difficulty with the habit-forming tendencies of dark chocolate, I'm going to issue a "be careful" warning in regards to black tea.

Just my 2 cents.

Speaking for myself, I have indeed noticed quite a difference since having started with my fish and cod liver oil.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest it couldn't be omega-3. It just seems like caffeine is the more obvious answer. I could be wrong about that, of course, and certainly addressing an omega-3 deficiency is going to feel pretty great :)

[quote author=Gertrudes]
About the caffeine...I know what you mean. I have been completely off caffeine for about 2 years, and have restarted black and green tea about 3 months ago. I do love both, but am also a bit concerned about the caffeine and am not sure of what to think about it. I haven't done much research about it yet, and have been simply observing its effects on my body.
[/quote]

Which is the best kind of research we can do :) I think it's totally possible that tea has a beneficial effect on some people. It certainly seems that way for Laura. But I do think that people need to be careful with it and observe carefully what sort of effects it has. Watch to see if there's a crash after the "up", for instance.

 

[mamadrama]

Yes, flouride is another concern to keep in mind if consuming green and/or black tea.

It turns out that both green and black tea products contain high amounts of naturally occurring fluoride. Tea leaves accumulate more fluoride (from air and soil pollution) than most other edible plants. Fluoride content in tea has risen dramatically over the last 20 years (probably due to increasing levels of pollution) as has tea consumption. Various studies within the past few decades show levels of fluoride in tea leaves to range from 50 to 340 ppm; recently, average levels of fluoride in a typical cup of tea exceeded 1 mg, or approximately 4 times the recommended amount for fluoridated drinking water. One cup of such tea would exceed amounts formerly prescribed by physicians as a treatment for hyperthyroidism, due to the effect of fluoride as a thyroid gland poison. And, the fluoride in tea is absorbed by the body in similar manner to fluoride in drinking water. [5g]

Almost all information about tea promoted by the tea industry either ignores tea's fluoride content entirely, or gives brief mention of the fluoride as a health benefit in preventing dental caries and ignores all the serious side effects of fluoride consumption...

http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2000-4.html

 

[mcb]

...FYI to tea drinkers on the forum:

[quote author=Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University]
Fluoride Content of Teas

Type of Tea Fluoride (mg/liter)*
Green 1.2-1.7
Oolong 0.6-1.0
Black 1.0-1.9
Brick tea 2.2-7.3

*Fluoride in 1% weight/volume tea prepared by continuous infusion from 5 to 360 minutes

_http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/tea/

...
[/quote]

The teas tested were all from China's Guangdong province. I located the cited research paper online, but did not wish to pay $4 to view it beyond the first page. In other reading, I have come across statements that high floride content is due to soil/air contamination, and this possibility should be considered, given the source of the teas. Personally, I would like to see studies comparing organic teas with others. (Floride content of teas has been discussed elsewhere in the forum.)

 

[Laura]

I had to stop drinking coffee because the caffeine gave me serious heart palpitations, not to mention messing with my insulin. I found that I had the same evil effects drinking decaf! Tea has never, ever bothered me. And if I decide not to drink it at all, which I have done now and again, I don't have a single craving for it. So something is up with that.

 

[mamadrama]

Personally, I would like to see studies comparing organic teas with others.

Yes, from what I've seen there is a definite gap in research comparing the fluoride content of organic vs. non-organic tea. Fwiw, this is what one researcher found:

I did not realize this was a source of contention until I started passing my e-book around to researchers who specialize in fluoride studies. It is widely accepted that older, lower quality tea leaves will contain more fluoride than younger leaves. But this has nothing to do with whether or not the tea is labeled organic. I have not been successful at finding a single study comparing the fluoride content of organic versus non-organic tea.

In an article on the Weston A. Price Foundation website, entitled Kvass and Kombucha: Gifts from Russia, author Sally Fallon claims organic tea is low in fluoride. She sites a small study her team conducted by measuring the fluoride content of organic black tea before and after it was made into kombucha (a fermented form of black tea).

In the article, she states that the organic black tea contained “very little fluoride” yet the chart in the reference section reveals it measured at .94 ppm. This is higher than the “optimal level” of fluoride in drinking water recently proposed by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (0.7 ppm). Some of this fluoride came from the filtered water used to make the tea (it measured at .62 ppm), but still, this small study did not give me confidence that organic black tea is low in fluoride.

How many samples were measured? Was it just one? What brand of organic black tea was tested? How were the plants grown? I would need answers to these important questions and more before I could conclude that organic tea is low in fluoride.

Questionable Testing Methods for Fluoride Content of Tea

In addition, one of the fluoride experts had the following to say about the tests used to measure fluoride content in tea:

A recent study by one of the world’s leading scientists specializing in fluoride found that measurements in tea, in particular, could often grossly underestimate the true level of F. This is because tea not only absorbs F from the soil, but it also absorbs aluminum. High levels of Al interfere with the most common analytical methods for determining F in foods. This study found that the F level was 2 to 4 times higher in teas when using the accurate method compared to using the standard methods.

Where does the Fluoride in Tea Come From?

As opposed to grapes and other crops that are sprayed with cryolite, a fluoride-based pesticide, I have not come across a particular fluoride-based pesticides that is commonly used on the tea plant. Some sources suggest fluoride in tea is absorbed through the soil, which means it could come from rock phosphate fertilizers. Are these allowed for organic growers? I don’t know.

I gave up tea completely (even kombucha) when I determined that fluoride was the cause of my cystic acne so I have no personal experience to validate either claim. Perhaps one of these days I will chug a glass or two of black tea to see if my skin can help me figure it out. I will add that to the growing list of potentially fluoridated foods I want to investigate.

_http://www.celluliteinvestigation.com/2011/07/fluoride-content-of-organic-vs-

 

[Hesper]

I think we might be overlooking the obvious here - it's probably the caffeine. Caffeine is a stimulant and may have a positive effect on mood in the short term in some people....

Speaking for myself, I have indeed noticed quite a difference since having started with my fish and cod liver oil.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest it couldn't be omega-3. It just seems like caffeine is the more obvious answer. I could be wrong about that, of course, and certainly addressing an omega-3 deficiency is going to feel pretty great

I think I just wasn't getting enough fat. I was drinking black tea before and it wasn't doing anything good so I cut it out. Then I read about the butter tea and I decided I'd give that a try and voila, I felt better. But my cod-liver oil wasn't really doing the trick either, so maybe it wasn't the omega 3's in particular. In fact it might not have had anything to do with any of that and it might have been something completely different. "I'm not so smart" doncha know? ;D But for now I'm feeling that I just wasn't getting enough fat. Seems to make sense to me.

 

[mcb]

I think I just wasn't getting enough fat. I was drinking black tea before and it wasn't doing anything good so I cut it out. Then I read about the butter tea and I decided I'd give that a try and voila, I felt better. But my cod-liver oil wasn't really doing the trick either, so maybe it wasn't the omega 3's in particular. In fact it might not have had anything to do with any of that and it might have been something completely different. "I'm not so smart" doncha know? ;D But for now I'm feeling that I just wasn't getting enough fat. Seems to make sense to me.

I increased my fish oil/CLO intake a few months ago (I was already fish oil capsules but I switched to liquid and increased the amount) and there have been a number of improvements (as well as a few setbacks). I think it is having a positive long-term effect on my thinking ability, but it would be hard to prove right now. I have also been trying to obtain fatty cuts of grass-fed beef, that contain omega 3's. I have specific issues for which omega 3's are reported to help.

As I suggested earlier, it is unlikely that anyone here is suffering from a deficiency of tea (green or black), but a deficiency of omega 3's is an entirely different matter! The fat that butter provides can be important too.

 

[Lilou]

I wonder if it's possible that she gave the wrong email by accident, as in leaving out one letter? Perhaps if/when you see her again, ask if it she could double check it? Just a thought.

I checked it with her three times to be sure it was correct. So that can't be it.

[quote author=Gertrudes]
Or she could be having problems with her mailbox being too full, or the server itself. I have had that happening to me before.
[/quote]

Doubtful. The returned email said "recipient unknown".

[quote author=Oxajil]
One way to help people realize the truth on health is to give lectures and to maybe have a guest who has been through the same disease that others have been through, and who has healed by the steps taken.
[/quote]

I talked to the lady about Dr. Terry Wahls -her video from TedX was on SOTT recently. Dr. Wahls, who herself has MS, took herself out of a wheelchair and back to her practice with diet. If it were me, I'd want the information. But there's really no way to even guess the reason for the bogus email. Some people are open to information, others are not.

I really need to organize/print some information for patients so I can just give it to them right there. Maybe she just doesn't give out her email addy, even to her eye doctor!

 

[nicklebleu]

I talked to the lady about Dr. Terry Wahls -her video from TedX was on SOTT recently. Dr. Wahls, who herself has MS, took herself out of a wheelchair and back to her practice with diet. If it were me, I'd want the information. But there's really no way to even guess the reason for the bogus email. Some people are open to information, others are not.

I really need to organize/print some information for patients so I can just give it to them right there. Maybe she just doesn't give out her email addy, even to her eye doctor!

It's easy as a doctor to believe that a patient needs to heed the advice given - as that is what doctors think the patient consults him or her for. The reason might be a different one ... I am not saying that patients don't want to get better, I think everyone does, but I think that the way to better health for some patients may be unsurmountable due to programs and beliefs. I think everyone wants to feel better, but some are not prepared to let go of certain programs/ beliefs to get there.

While I think it is good for doctors to hand out/ mention what they beleive is beneficial for the patient, he or she needs to respect the choices of the patients - which can be very difficult (extreme example a Jehova witness refusing blood and dying of blood loss on an operating table - very hard for the theatre staff involved).

I think for me the idea is to plant a seed - once the seed has taken foot in fertile soil, it will grow by itself. If it lands in barren earth it will wither away no matter the care you give ... If she was interested in the information, she would be able from the snippet that she got from you to go onto the internet and see that there is a lot of information about MS and diet. If the task was too daunting and overwhelming, she would come back to you and ask.
If she doesn't, well then she is not open for this ...

I know that most doctors have this very strong program to help, to persuade the patient to do what he tells them, because it's for their best. And most often than not this is not true ... most doctors are completely unaware of their blatant lack of the most basic knowledge regarding the human body, but in medical school they have been inculcated to be the bearer of the ultimate wisdom.

I have a relative with MS and three small kids not doing very well. I once mentioned diet and vitamin D as something beneficial for MS sufferers. He just said that he was looked after very well by his doctors ... And that was it. For me it is heartwrentching to watch him struggle with the knowledge, that it is unnecessary. But it is his body, his life, his choice.

So give advice to whom asks ... and this is bloody difficult!

 

[Lilou]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, nicklebleu. I tend to throw out "snippets of information" and then see if they ask for more. In the case of the woman with MS, I felt this information could really help her. So I went as far as asking her if I could email it. It is difficult. And I'm sure she has seen so many doctors that did nothing but push a pill (or ten), that I was just another quack in a long line.

On the other hand, I had a lady the same day who was super interested in gluten free diet. It was at that point I realized I did not have easy access to information to give for those who do ask! I'll get busy. Thanks again.

 

[Gimpy]

I had to stop drinking coffee because the caffeine gave me serious heart palpitations, not to mention messing with my insulin. I found that I had the same evil effects drinking decaf! Tea has never, ever bothered me. And if I decide not to drink it at all, which I have done now and again, I don't have a single craving for it. So something is up with that.

I fell back off the no coffee wagon a few weeks ago, but have noticed no change at all in my insulin levels with or without coffee.

The difference now? I only drink decaf that's been CO2 processed, and the taste is totally different. Much milder. When I do have regular, its organic, which makes it a treat, not an every day thing. No headaches if I don't have a cup. I also brew tea by the cup and with a 'French Press". (And its really yummy.)

Hubby and I tested for insulin spikes with our coffee, and even used two different types of blood glucose monitors. No change for either machine, which is why I didn't get too depressed at drinking coffee again. To compensate, I've upped my animal fat intake, and found that the difference in skin texture that I had when I first quit coffee came back. A nice surprise. (Supplementing with iodine also helped with the skin problems.)