"Life Without Bread"

Megan said:
The thing that worries me most about eating conventionally-fattened meat is the question of what ends up in the fat? If you occasionally eat it in a restaurant, that is one thing, but if you are eating a lot of this fat then this is an important question. PBPM recommends trimming the fat when eating conventional meat, and that is the approach I have been taking. It could be dangerous to pursue a high-fat diet using fat that is heavily contaminated because it came from diseased (caused by the unnatural grain diet) animals, whether now or later.

Another point that PBPM makes is that "natural" meat is grain-fattened unless it specifically says it is not. While there might be fewer toxins in the fat (but that's not clear), the grain-feeding destroys the omega-3 fatty acids you would otherwise be getting from the meat. Just because you bought it at a "good" store and paid more for it, that doesn't mean it is truly "natural diet." The labeling must be clear that it is exclusively natural diet. I know (and have known) that not everything I buy is, but I need to eat something.

I have been thinking a lot about this also and how to get sufficient "good/clean" fat. I was considering making a lot of ghee and lard with spices to eat but the same contamination issues would apply, I think. Organic cold pressed olive oil would provide fat but not animal fat so that's not optimal either.

Redfox suggested above to increase detox supplements in such situations and that might, indeed, be the most workable solution. Any additional thoughts on the issue are most welcome :)
 
Keit said:
Laura said:
Actually, that sounds sorta like the pancreatitis attack I had a week or so ago after having too many carbs in nuts. Psyche gave me digestive enzymes, boswellia and milk thistle capsules. It cleared right up in a few hours. I won't be doing that again!

Hmm...maybe. Luckily I received a shipment of supplements several days ago, so have all this including L-glutamine. I already started taking them after they came, but guess that the shock for the system was greater.

Just an update that maybe I did catch a bug or something, because it's the forth day already and still have the same symptoms including diarrhea. The only difference is that a mild fever (38.7) finally broke, and is now below 38. Make sure to take all the supplements, drink plenty of water and just wait till it's over. Don't have an appetite at all, but make sure to eat a bit anyway. But I do think that it could be much worse if weren't on the diet, even if it was the strongest "attack" that experienced recently.
 
Thor said:
Megan said:
The thing that worries me most about eating conventionally-fattened meat is the question of what ends up in the fat? If you occasionally eat it in a restaurant, that is one thing, but if you are eating a lot of this fat then this is an important question. PBPM recommends trimming the fat when eating conventional meat, and that is the approach I have been taking. It could be dangerous to pursue a high-fat diet using fat that is heavily contaminated because it came from diseased (caused by the unnatural grain diet) animals, whether now or later.

True. I would say that the real problem is chemical additives not so much the "grain finishing" which seems to only remove the omega-3s. As she points out, even "organic" meat is usually finished with grain leaving it depleted of omega-3s. The solution she offers is to take lots of omega-3-s (fish and krill oil).

Thor said:
Megan said:
Another point that PBPM makes is that "natural" meat is grain-fattened unless it specifically says it is not. While there might be fewer toxins in the fat (but that's not clear), the grain-feeding destroys the omega-3 fatty acids you would otherwise be getting from the meat. Just because you bought it at a "good" store and paid more for it, that doesn't mean it is truly "natural diet." The labeling must be clear that it is exclusively natural diet. I know (and have known) that not everything I buy is, but I need to eat something.

See above. Just eat what you can find as best you can, take lots of omega-3s (not flax or hemp oil but fish or krill oil) and liver/detox support.

Thor said:
I have been thinking a lot about this also and how to get sufficient "good/clean" fat. I was considering making a lot of ghee and lard with spices to eat but the same contamination issues would apply, I think. Organic cold pressed olive oil would provide fat but not animal fat so that's not optimal either.

PBPM does not recommend using a lot of olive oil. Ya'll REALLY, REALLY need to read the whole book!!!

Thor said:
Redfox suggested above to increase detox supplements in such situations and that might, indeed, be the most workable solution. Any additional thoughts on the issue are most welcome :)

I agree. I've been taking NAC every day for several years now. It is probably the one supplement that I have taken most consistently. But I'm now back to taking the omega-3s, too.

The way I look at it is this: I do the best I can with what is available which, alone, is going to help with the body's ability to detox, and I help out with detox assistance. It would be ideal if I could eat "pure" all the time, but I can't. So it just takes a little longer.
 
Chapter 31 of PBPM has a scary story that should give us all pause:

Years ago, in the 1930s, a scientist and doctor by the name of Francis Pottenger initiated a series of now famous feeding experiments with cats that spanned more than ten years and several feline generations. His findings transformed many people's view of the role that diet plays in health and reproduction.

Certain groups of these cats were fed quality, fresh, un-denatured food and others were fed varying degrees of denatured and processed food, then the effects were observed over several generations. The results from the inferior diets were not so startling for the first generation animals, but markedly and progressively so in subsequent generations. From the second generation on, the cats that were fed processed and denatured diets showed increasing levels of structural deformities, birth defects, stress-driven behaviors, vulnerability to illness, allergies, reduced learning ability, and finally, major reproductive problems. When Pottenger attempted to reverse the effects in the genetically weakened and vulnerable later-generation animals with greatly improved diet, he found it took fully four generations for the cats to return to normal.

The reflections that Pottenger's work casts on the health issues and dietary habits of modern-day society are glaring and inescapable.

The time has come for us to decide just what level of health we choose to have for our children and ourselves. The choice is truly ours. A true state of health cannot be achieved by simply managing a disease process with either supplements or pharmaceuticals. Supplements can, at least, help, but by definition, they are supplements to a more fundamentally essential and healthy approach to diet. Also, we must somehow compensate for what we are being bombarded with from all sides.

Overwhelming modern-day circumstances have essentially eliminated our margin for error. The time for innocent indulgence has passed. We can no longer exercise the hubris of pretending we can get away with eating whatever we want, even "in moderation," and somehow avoid the unforgiving consequences simply because we are in denial of them. The consequences of ignorance, for many, will be beyond help. We are too many unhealthy generations of "Pottenger's cats" into the Industrial Revolution and the ravages of a deteriorating food supply, and we are too genetically compromised by all this to indulge in a dietary approach dictated merely by one's superficial tastes (e.g. comfort of junk food) or wishful ideals (e.g. vegetarianism and veganism. Many people no longer have the same resilience of even a generation ago.

{...}

I personally submit that we are now living in a world and in a time where there is no longer any room for error with respect to what we must do to maintain our health and survival. Pottenger's work has shown us that progressive generations with poor dietary habits result in increasingly more vulnerable progeny and that each subsequent generation with unhealthy dietary habits results in impaired resistance to disease, increasingly poor health and vitality, impaired mental and cognitive health, and impaired capacity to reproduce. It is all part of what we are seeing in our epidemic levels of poor health and the overwhelming rates of autism, violence, attentional disorders, childhood (and adult) behavioral problems, mental illness, fertility issues, and birth defects.

We are a few generations of Pottenger's cats, as humans, past the dawn of the Industrial Revolution and the ever-tightening tendrils of the unscrupulous, greed-driven food industry it spawned. We, as a species, have never been more vulnerable. Today, the effects of the increasingly widespread consumption of processed and fast foods are glaringly, if not disturbingly, clear. Add this to an increasingly contaminated environment, nightmarishly dangerous and spreading GMOs, a proft-based (rather than results based) and broken health care system, and a broken economy on a global scale, along with progressively inferior and deteriorating food and water supplies, and the implications are virtually, if not wholly, cataclysmic.

The odds are clearly stacked against us.

Her suggestions about what to do are very good except that they include this:

Because of this toxic onslaught, our need for antioxidants and the foods that help us produce them internally has never been greater. {So far, so good... but she forgets that the liver is the major detox organ and just getting in the fat that feeds and stimulates the liver and letting the liver do it's job is the biggest detox element of the human body!} Even though vegetables and greens were mostly an optional source of nutrients in our primitive, ice age past, the time has come to greatly increase their role in our modern diets, both to provide a varied plethora of phytonutrients and antioxidants to our beleaguered, embattled cells, and, to some degree, to provide fiber as a means of binding unwanted, conjugated, carcinogenic xenoestrogens and eliminating them from our bodies, preventing their reabsorption Plant foods are probably more important to us now than ever before.

She has, apparently, missed the boat entirely on the topic of lectins and dangerous plant antinutrients, not to mention the fact that plants today aren't what they used to be. And, the most important thing of all that she is missing is the gross irritation that indigestible plant matter effects on the colon, not to mention the fact that plants ferment in the intestines and a lot of toxins are REABSORBED by this slowing down and bulking up in the colon!
 
anart said:
Hi seek10,

You absolutely HAVE to sleep - lack of sleep is making everything worse - yet you seem to be afraid to sleep because you are concerned about 'attack in sleep'. I think you need to deeply - deeply - understand that sleep is a defense, it builds your reserves and is when you recharge from your higher centers. You HAVE to sleep. In fact, in your case, I would say that the danger of 'attacks' in sleep pale in comparison to the damage you are doing yourself by being hyper-vigilant and not sleeping. I cannot stress this enough. You must come to understand that you do have natural defenses against certain attacks - IF your energy reserves are full from good, healthy, prolonged sleep - and that the idea that you are being attacked in your sleep is actually a manifestation of a lack of sleep!!

Thank you anart for the suggestion and session comments. I know it is needed, but not doing enough due to other priorities. I will try to sleep more. I was sleeping enough some months back and 12 hrs of work +8 hrs of sleep left no time for another things, guilt of not doing enough and pushed the sleep into the corner. yesterday , I slept for 8 hrs, though it is not with out break.

anart said:
Perhaps these will help you understand more:

960609 said:
Q: Does the recharging of the souled being come from
a similar pool, only maybe the "human" pool?
A: No - it recharges from the so-called sexual center
which is a higher center of creative energy. During
sleep, the emotional center, not being blocked by the
lower intellectual cener and the moving center,
transduces the energy from the sexual center. It is
also the time during which the higher emotional and
intellectual centers can rest from the "drain" of the
lower centers' interaction with those pesky organic
portals so much loved by the lower centers. This
respite alone is sufficient to make a difference. But,
more than that, the energy of the sexual center is
also more available to the other higher centers.

It sounds like you're surrounded by petty tyrant organic portals at work, so you must understand that sleeping is essential - it is your protection. There is nothing that can happen to you in a 'sleep attack' that is, or will be, worse than your own self-imposed sleep deprivation. I can assure you of that. If you've not yet tried taking melatonin for sleep, please do, GABA is also effective - since you may be waking up 'automatically' so you need some assistance in sleeping the entire night. I can't stress strongly enough the importance of you getting a full, deep, night's sleep every night. I hope this helps.
I recently stopped taking my 3 mg melatonin and will resume again with GABA and 5-HTP too.
thank you gee for the links and I reread them.
 
seek10 said:
Thank you anart for the suggestion and session comments. I know it is needed, but not doing enough due to other priorities. I will try to sleep more. I was sleeping enough some months back and 12 hrs of work +8 hrs of sleep left no time for another things, guilt of not doing enough and pushed the sleep into the corner. yesterday , I slept for 8 hrs, though it is not with out break.

Well, right now I can tell you that you must stop feeling guilty for not doing enough. You have one mission right now that, if you fail, will make you incapable of helping out at all. That one mission is getting yourself (including body and mind) healthy and that requires 8-9 hours of uninterrupted sleep a night. Every night. That must be your first priority. Others will fill in for you while you get things back on track with your sleep.

I cannot stress this strongly enough. It may take a year and that is fine. seek10, there is nothing that is more important than this - because without it you are incapable of doing anything at all. I know you can do it if you put your mind to it.
 
I've been having some skin rashes flare ups, which I find peculiar. When I did the Candida protocol months ago I got these skin rashes as a die off reaction. They no never really disappeared, although it did get much better with the help of coconut oil. Over the past few days it has been getting worse though. I'm still at 5g of carbs a day (no particular reason for that, I'm just really enjoying the meat diet), nothing has changed, and I've not had anything sweet since the end of February. I'm not sure whether this could this be another die-off reaction, but if anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

On the subject of feeling sleepy after a meal, I was just mentioning this to my partner and he quite naturally answered: "Well, all animals sleep after they eat. Maybe you have negated your body for so long what it wanted, that now that you are giving it to him, he has the strength to ask you for it and really make itself heard?"
Probably not ALL animals sleep after they eat, but in any case it seems that a great majority of mammals does. So what he said could, perhaps, be a possibility. Maybe by being in a ketogenic state we get in tune with a totally different way of not only metabolizing food but our bodily cycles of rest, sleep and regeneration begin to change as well?
This has been puzzling to me, today I tried eating less and had exactly the same reaction. Within an hour of having eaten I start feeling incredibly sleepy. This seems to be totally independent from what I eat and how full my stomach feels or not. It's like a button is simpy pressed: eat, press off button and sleep.
Well, in line with what Redfox said a couple of pages back, many regenerative processes happen during sleep, and who knows what else.
 
Gertrudes said:
On the subject of feeling sleepy after a meal, I was just mentioning this to my partner and he quite naturally answered: "Well, all animals sleep after they eat. Maybe you have negated your body for so long what it wanted, that now that you are giving it to him, he has the strength to ask you for it and really make itself heard?"
Probably not ALL animals sleep after they eat, but in any case it seems that a great majority of mammals does. So what he said could, perhaps, be a possibility. Maybe by being in a ketogenic state we get in tune with a totally different way of not only metabolizing food but our bodily cycles of rest, sleep and regeneration begin to change as well?
This has been puzzling to me, today I tried eating less and had exactly the same reaction. Within an hour of having eaten I start feeling incredibly sleepy. This seems to be totally independent from what I eat and how full my stomach feels or not. It's like a button is simpy pressed: eat, press off button and sleep.
Well, in line with what Redfox said a couple of pages back, many regenerative processes happen during sleep, and who knows what else.

From what I understand, digestion requires an enormous amount of energy. This could explain your sleepiness reaction.
 
anart said:
seek10 said:
Thank you anart for the suggestion and session comments. I know it is needed, but not doing enough due to other priorities. I will try to sleep more. I was sleeping enough some months back and 12 hrs of work +8 hrs of sleep left no time for another things, guilt of not doing enough and pushed the sleep into the corner. yesterday , I slept for 8 hrs, though it is not with out break.

Well, right now I can tell you that you must stop feeling guilty for not doing enough. You have one mission right now that, if you fail, will make you incapable of helping out at all. That one mission is getting yourself (including body and mind) healthy and that requires 8-9 hours of uninterrupted sleep a night. Every night. That must be your first priority. Others will fill in for you while you get things back on track with your sleep.

I cannot stress this strongly enough. It may take a year and that is fine. seek10, there is nothing that is more important than this - because without it you are incapable of doing anything at all. I know you can do it if you put your mind to it.

Anart, thanks for this advice. I must say that lately I have been having similar problems with getting a full night's sleep. Particularly when I finish work at 9pm and have to be up again by 6am. This can happen 2, sometimes 3 nights a week as my shifts vary. The dietary changes do take a lot of reading and learning new methods of preparing food. This, and trying to read all the psychology books and keep up with everything else can be very draining and I have also been experiencing the guilty feelings. Last night, as a good example I had about 5 hours which was interrupted by a nightmare which I had to wake up and start saying te POTS to end it. So I'll be taking your advice too!
 
Nicolas said:
From what I understand, digestion requires an enormous amount of energy. This could explain your sleepiness reaction.

Yes, I'm aware of that and, indeed, it is a possibility. Thing is, this sleepiness has never happened to me before, not even after a big meal. I could get a little tired or sleepy, but nothing like the intensity of what I'm experiencing now. I've doubled my dose of digestive enzymes, and it makes no difference on how sleepy I feel afterwords.
 
Laura said:
Certain groups of these cats were fed quality, fresh, un-denatured food and others were fed varying degrees of denatured and processed food, then the effects were observed over several generations.

I found this really really intriguing, so I did a search on Pottenger's study and found that he studied the difference between raw, uncooked meats, and cooked meats on the diet of a cat. According to Wikipedia:

In one study, one group of cats was fed a diet of two-thirds raw meat, one-third raw milk, and cod-liver oil while the second group was fed a diet of two-thirds cooked meat, one-third raw milk, and cod-liver oil. The cats fed the all-raw diet were healthy while the cats fed the cooked meat diet developed various health problems.

At first I was a little disappointed (all he did was cook the meat?), as PBPM made it seem as if he fed them junk food. But then I read that the problem was that cats need taurine to survive, and taurine is cooked out of the food when it is heated. We humans don't need taurine because our body can manufacture it. But how many other essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals are blasted out of our food, and have been missing in our diet for generations? So although it didn't look like a fit, the similarity between the cats' symptoms and ours are too striking to dismiss, and I speculate it's gotta be due to similar mechanisms, with just different deficiencies.

All in all the diet's proceeding along pretty well on this end. I spent a couple weeks under 20g of carbs, and I've slowly added nuts, kombucha, and experimented with tomatoes but decided against it. I might just have to go without them :( A couple days I'll rise above the 30g of carbs mark, eating too many nuts, and I think this is because my body needs more fat, so I'm just drinking it now. Right now my fat intake is lard, ghee, coconut oil, cod liver oil, and nuts, all combined at around 160 grams (I'm about 150 pounds). I haven't been keeping great track of the process, though, so that's something I'm working on.
 
Gertrudes said:
I've been having some skin rashes flare ups, which I find peculiar. When I did the Candida protocol months ago I got these skin rashes as a die off reaction. They no never really disappeared, although it did get much better with the help of coconut oil. Over the past few days it has been getting worse though. I'm still at 5g of carbs a day (no particular reason for that, I'm just really enjoying the meat diet), nothing has changed, and I've not had anything sweet since the end of February. I'm not sure whether this could this be another die-off reaction, but if anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

Psyche and I were talking about this type of symptom yesterday and I'll defer to her to respond to it. But what I do remember is that she doesn't think it is candida die-off but rather the sluggishness of the hydrochloric acid thing in your body. I can't urge you strongly enough to read "Primal Body, Primal Mind".
 
Hesper said:
At first I was a little disappointed (all he did was cook the meat?), as PBPM made it seem as if he fed them junk food. But then I read that the problem was that cats need taurine to survive, and taurine is cooked out of the food when it is heated. We humans don't need taurine because our body can manufacture it. But how many other essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals are blasted out of our food, and have been missing in our diet for generations? So although it didn't look like a fit, the similarity between the cats' symptoms and ours are too striking to dismiss, and I speculate it's gotta be due to similar mechanisms, with just different deficiencies.

Humans have adapted in a number of ways to cooked food. From what I have gleaned from reading the book Catching Fire, cooking is basically a way of pre-digesting food, and other animals can often eat cooked food without too much harm.

While this is partly speculation, it's likely that domestic dogs and cats have undergone some adaptation as well, but cats especially may not have had as much time to do so. Cooking removes some compounds, as noted, and adds others such as acrylamides, which result when foods are "browned." Humans have apparently developed ways to effectively deal with acrylamides, but they are carcinogenic in other species. Part of the problem in understanding arcrylamides, I think, is that the animals we typically use for experimental testing can't handle them, while we can! Research is ongoing.

Some of the cat foods we are trying with our cats contain supplemental taurine. Another thing I am trying to do is avoid sharing browned meat with them. It's probably healthier for me that way too. Our smaller cat, Cassiopeia :), loves fat. I am just not sure which ones she is adapted for. Fats from meats should be OK, and I would think that ghee should be OK too, but what about coconut oil or other plant-derived fats? I sure don't know.
 
anart said:
seek10 said:
Thank you anart for the suggestion and session comments. I know it is needed, but not doing enough due to other priorities. I will try to sleep more. I was sleeping enough some months back and 12 hrs of work +8 hrs of sleep left no time for another things, guilt of not doing enough and pushed the sleep into the corner. yesterday , I slept for 8 hrs, though it is not with out break.

Well, right now I can tell you that you must stop feeling guilty for not doing enough. You have one mission right now that, if you fail, will make you incapable of helping out at all. That one mission is getting yourself (including body and mind) healthy and that requires 8-9 hours of uninterrupted sleep a night. Every night. That must be your first priority. Others will fill in for you while you get things back on track with your sleep.

I cannot stress this strongly enough. It may take a year and that is fine. seek10, there is nothing that is more important than this - because without it you are incapable of doing anything at all. I know you can do it if you put your mind to it.
thank you for stressing it. I will try my best.
 
I have been eating bacon, egg fried in the fat sunny-side up and sometimes homemade sausage as well for breakfast, meat and a few slices of cucumber for lunch and meaty broth made from grass fed beef. I've found a rancher who raises grass fed beef out in the valley and has a restaurant/shop a few miles away and the meat and bones are so wonderful. I have been mostly pain-free. My lower back pain is almost non-existent unless I forget and sit for too long without getting up and moving around. The last hold-out is chronic gout, which I have had for years. Even that does not bother me unless I walk around barefoot without my orthotics. Yesterday I picked some green beans from the garden and ate a cup steamed with lots of butter with my lunch. The gout was extremely painful this morning. So the only thing different was the green beans yesterday. No more beans for me! I have whittled down the supplements to Vit C, D, magnesium and potassium, spirulina and fish oil. After all these years of reading that fat and meat cause gout, I have found that exactly the opposite is true. I am not surprised after everything I have been reading on the forum and the recommended books.
 

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