"Life Without Bread"

[Bluefyre]

Thank you Laura for the DMSO suggestion. Can anyone who lives in Canada tell me where they get their DMSO? I was under the impression that it has been banned for sale in Canada. A couple of US sites I checked out say I need a prescription for them to mail it. Perhaps I'm missing something here, and I really would like to give it a try for my back and toe. And congratulations on reaching ketosis Laura. :)

 

[dugdeep]

Thank you Laura for the DMSO suggestion. Can anyone who lives in Canada tell me where they get their DMSO? I was under the impression that it has been banned for sale in Canada. A couple of US sites I checked out say I need a prescription for them to mail it. Perhaps I'm missing something here, and I really would like to give it a try for my back and toe.

I'm in Canada and ordered mine from here last year and didn't have any issues. It's in the U.S. Hope that helps :)

 

[Bluefyre]

Thanks a lot dugdeep!

 

[mcb]

I have been reviewing Fiber Menace tonight, and it has a lot to say about the symptoms some of us encountered when dropping to a very low level of carb intake. It's not easy to summarize, though, and I would say that some of the information is wrong. I can, however, express what I have been reading in a few words:

If your digestion goes haywire when you reduce carbs to 15/20 g/d, SLOW DOWN. You don't have to drop all at once.

I noted three major symptoms in FM that people here may be experiencing, constipation, disbacteriosis (die-off of "good" bacteria, causing dry, hard stool), and "indigestion" (in the original sense -- you stop digesting food). I encountered the first and third ones, in alternation, but not the second. He has extensive suggestions for each.

FM also discusses hypoglycemic symptoms, something that I did not encounter and I don't know if other people have. That part puzzled me a little. But then I dropped to ~72 g/d for a month before going down to the lower amount, and that may have avoided that particular problem (which I have had all of my life until now!). I am somewhere under 50 g/d now, dropping back down more slowly than before, and so far things are still moving OK.

I should mention that FM devotes a chapter to trashing low-carb diets, especially Atkins. There is no reference, however, to "New Atkins." One can only guess what he might have to say about that, or perhaps there is something about it on the Gutsense website. Nevertheless, the FM low-fiber diet (presented in a much later chapter) is indeed a low-carb diet, and the information fits reasonably well with what we have been doing here. Trying to extract the good from this book and leave the bad, however, is more than I am able to take on this week.

 

[Laura]

Well, other than meat and eggs, if you're not doing veggies, what else is there to eat?? Fish?

I must be weird, but I'm really getting tired of meat all the time.

Well, actually, I see that as a good thing. That way I only eat for fuel.

I eat bacon and eggs for breakfast. I had a pork chop and a bit of green beans sauteed in butter for late lunch yesterday, later in the day, some paper-thin parma ham with a couple slices of butter rolled up inside, some macadamia nuts for a snack in the early evening, and that was all I wanted. It really is nice to not be driven by cravings for food.

 

[Gawan]

It seems I switched in full ketosis too. It's now the first day where my legs are not weak anymore, no dizziness, which I had from time to time and feeling overall much more strength. My blood-sugar dropped also again, which needed to be adjusted after gluconeogenesis with higher insulin rates and since 2 days the need for insulin dropped again low.

Yesterday night I measured ketones, with a result of 0.2 mmol/L, the urine is much lighter than some days before (increased as well water intake as suggested by Psyche :)). Let's see how it further goes, well these are the results after a 5 weeks of ketosis and very low carb consumption.

Well, other than meat and eggs, if you're not doing veggies, what else is there to eat?? Fish?

I must be weird, but I'm really getting tired of meat all the time.

Well, actually, I see that as a good thing. That way I only eat for fuel.

I eat bacon and eggs for breakfast. I had a pork chop and a bit of green beans sauteed in butter for late lunch yesterday, later in the day, some paper-thin parma ham with a couple slices of butter rolled up inside, some macadamia nuts for a snack in the early evening, and that was all I wanted. It really is nice to not be driven by cravings for food.

I'm undergoing the same, no craving food drive, just chicken, eggs, butter and some veggies from time to time.

Argh! I managed to get my hands on some "black market" L-Carnitine yesterday , only I didn't look closely at the ingredients. I took a couple of caps today, only afterwards looking at the label. Under "Other Ingredients" it has "Rice Powder"! Bah!

I suppose it serves me right for not being more vigilant, but that's $50 down the drain that I really could have used for other things. My brain is just not working like it should lately. My motivation to do anything at all is basically zero and I feel more tired than usual. I suppose it could be the heat (I find the high-meat diet is really heating; not the best thing to do in the middle of August!). I'm really hoping this passes soon.

Did you check fitness studios/health studios too? Because it looks like common that people are using L-Carnitine, at least I got L-Carnitine powder and L-glutamine powder from fitness-studio stores. :)

And rock on Doug!

FM also discusses hypoglycemic symptoms

This happened to me after I switched to really low carbs, in a faster way.

Added: one of the prevailing theories from what I've been reading is that as the fat gets burned, the toxins stored in it are released through the skin.
I sure hope it's just a passing state though.

My arms look like the after effect of a sunburn, not red but with scales. Maybe we are getting dragon scales. ;D

 

[Ollie]

Just want to announce that I think I've gotten over the hump and am in real ketosis now. I cut back on the meat a bit, added plenty of fish oil every day, and things are much better. I'm not racing, but I'm feeling generally much better and the heaviness in my legs is receding at a good rate.

That's great to hear.

I'm cutting back on protein today, too. I discovered that I'd been eating too much protein, having confused Protein Food grams with actual protein content grams. I'd used the former (higher value, 100-150g) thinking that it was the later! So, for me, based on the calculation in 'Protein Power', I'm now aiming at 78g actual protein from food sources. Quite a difference. This may be sufficient to tip me over into the Atkins Edge. :)

The main difference will be cutting down at 'lunchtime' - to get back to a 3:2:1 ratio of eating protein ('breakfast' big, 'lunch' medium, 'tea' small).

 

[Thor]

Just want to announce that I think I've gotten over the hump and am in real ketosis now. I cut back on the meat a bit, added plenty of fish oil every day, and things are much better. I'm not racing, but I'm feeling generally much better and the heaviness in my legs is receding at a good rate.

That's great to hear.

I'm cutting back on protein today, too. I discovered that I'd been eating too much protein, having confused Protein Food grams with actual protein content grams. I'd used the former (higher value, 100-150g) thinking that it was the later! So, for me, based on the calculation in 'Protein Power', I'm now aiming at 78g actual protein from food sources. Quite a difference. This may be sufficient to tip me over into the Atkins Edge. :)

The main difference will be cutting down at 'lunchtime' - to get back to a 3:2:1 ratio of eating protein ('breakfast' big, 'lunch' medium, 'tea' small).

Hi Trevrizent, FWIW, just wanted to make sure that you're getting enough protein. In TAASOLCL the recommended amount of protein is 1.5 - 2.5 g/kg body weight. This means that if you're aiming at 78 g of actual protein content and want to be at the very low end of the spectrum, your weight should be 52 kg or less and if you weigh more than 52 kg you would not be getting sufficient protein.

As I understand it, if you not getting enough protein and restricting the carbs you will start converting lean muscle to fuel the body's glucose needs and that might not be desirable.

 

[Thor]

Just want to announce that I think I've gotten over the hump and am in real ketosis now. I cut back on the meat a bit, added plenty of fish oil every day, and things are much better. I'm not racing, but I'm feeling generally much better and the heaviness in my legs is receding at a good rate.

Well, other than meat and eggs, if you're not doing veggies, what else is there to eat?? Fish?

I must be weird, but I'm really getting tired of meat all the time.

Mrs P., I've been getting a bit fed up on the all meat diet, as well and the other day, made a delicious wok-dish where I marinated some steak in olive oil, apple cider vinegar, garlic, ginger, turmeric (which has curcumin in it) and crushed fennel seeds. I stir fried this in the wok along with a squash, a broccoli and a two carrots. I got three meals out of it and the carb tally for each was less than 10.

When I was frying the things in the wok I added 100 g of ghee to ensure animal fat and that just made things more smooth. :P

I know that some people have digestive problems when adding back vegetables but to me it was delicious and even helped getting my bowels to move in a more normal manner.

 

[Laura]

Hi Trevrizent, FWIW, just wanted to make sure that you're getting enough protein. In TAASOLCL the recommended amount of protein is 1.5 - 2.5 g/kg body weight. This means that if you're aiming at 78 g of actual protein content and want to be at the very low end of the spectrum, your weight should be 52 kg or less and if you weigh more than 52 kg you would not be getting sufficient protein.

As I understand it, if you not getting enough protein and restricting the carbs you will start converting lean muscle to fuel the body's glucose needs and that might not be desirable.

Thor, please read PBPM... or I'll try to scan the chapter on the protein limiting thing which makes a lot of sense. She recommends .95 g/kg body weight. For very active or athletic people, it would be higher, but that's the amount that signals the body to repair itself and prepare for survival.

 

[Laura]

I know that some people have digestive problems when adding back vegetables but to me it was delicious and even helped getting my bowels to move in a more normal manner.

Yes, Monastersky (sp?) says that people who have very stretched or damaged bowels may have a lot more difficulty leaving veggies behind.

What I've found is that it is clearly the amount of fat that determines transit time and comfort. Too little, and there's stoppage, too much and there is diarrhea, just right and everything is perfect and like clockwork. For me, about two or three paper thin slices of parma ham with a nice couple pats of butter rolled up in it is just the thing.

 

[Thor]

Hi Trevrizent, FWIW, just wanted to make sure that you're getting enough protein. In TAASOLCL the recommended amount of protein is 1.5 - 2.5 g/kg body weight. This means that if you're aiming at 78 g of actual protein content and want to be at the very low end of the spectrum, your weight should be 52 kg or less and if you weigh more than 52 kg you would not be getting sufficient protein.

As I understand it, if you not getting enough protein and restricting the carbs you will start converting lean muscle to fuel the body's glucose needs and that might not be desirable.

Thor, please read PBPM... or I'll try to scan the chapter on the protein limiting thing which makes a lot of sense. She recommends .95 g/kg body weight. For very active or athletic people, it would be higher, but that's the amount that signals the body to repair itself and prepare for survival.

I have PBPM but have not started it yet as I am not finished with TAASOLCL. I reading as fast as I can but there's a lot of reading :D

As to the 0.95 g/kg - that is great news to me. I've been struggling to hit the 1.5 g/kg which was the minimum recommended in TAASOLCL.

 

[Mikey]

The thing is, that just before it happened I ate a meal with pork and sweet potatoes. It was at 19:00 and my first meal for that day because was out of meat and didn't have the chance to buy it earlier. The amount of sweet potatoes was something like 40g carbohydrates. Couple of days before I decided to increase the carbs a bit to experiment and see if it will improve my muscle fatigue. And it did help, but maybe it was too much for the body after most of the day without fuel. Don't know.

Yesterday I too went the whole day without food and at 5 p.m. I ate ravenously stew beef with a lot of ghee mixed into the broth. Very bad idea. The hunger stayed during eating, and while I didn't feel full when I finished eating, the satiation came only after an hour. I had eaten far too much and I couldn't digest it and had to vomit later in the evening. So the lessen was reinforced: Eat in the morning, and only so much that you think you can make it through the day. Don't put more on the plate. That's new for me because my portions were always rather large when vegetables and carbs were the basis of my diet. Fat is of course far more energy dense.

I'm feeling better today but I am still out of equilibrium...

 

[Ollie]

Hi Trevrizent, FWIW, just wanted to make sure that you're getting enough protein. In TAASOLCL the recommended amount of protein is 1.5 - 2.5 g/kg body weight. This means that if you're aiming at 78 g of actual protein content and want to be at the very low end of the spectrum, your weight should be 52 kg or less and if you weigh more than 52 kg you would not be getting sufficient protein.

As I understand it, if you not getting enough protein and restricting the carbs you will start converting lean muscle to fuel the body's glucose needs and that might not be desirable.

Thor, please read PBPM... or I'll try to scan the chapter on the protein limiting thing which makes a lot of sense. She recommends .95 g/kg body weight. For very active or athletic people, it would be higher, but that's the amount that signals the body to repair itself and prepare for survival.

Thor, it was from TAASOLCL that my confusion started, in fact on rereading it yesterday evening it was then that I found that 1.5-2.5g/kg body weight referred to Protein Food, and not to protein amount. Protein content of 78g refers to my body weight, waist dimensions and other factors given by the Eades' in Protein Power.

Apart from the water loss at the start of reducing to 20g carbs, my weight has remained constant at 67kg, so no muscle loss. I have not read sufficiently far in PBPM yet to get to the figure that Laura has given - 0.95g/kg body weight - that's even lower and would equate to 63.65g of protein content per day. The amount of protein that I was eating for lunch is now reduced by a half! I'll need to do some more calcs to see what this further reduction equates to. :)

So, it looks like the shopping bag gets even lighter and cheaper, as the food amounts are much, much lower than on a high carb diet, even taking into account the cost of 'good' meat, and it will last longer too. :)

 

[Laura]

Thor, it was from TAASOLCL that my confusion started, in fact on rereading it yesterday evening it was then that I found that 1.5-2.5g/kg body weight referred to Protein Food, and not to protein amount. Protein content of 78g refers to my body weight, waist dimensions and other factors given by the Eades' in Protein Power.

Apart from the water loss at the start of reducing to 20g carbs, my weight has remained constant at 67kg, so no muscle loss. I have not read sufficiently far in PBPM yet to get to the figure that Laura has given - 0.95g/kg body weight - that's even lower and would equate to 63.65g of protein content per day. The amount of protein that I was eating for lunch is now reduced by a half! I'll need to do some more calcs to see what this further reduction equates to. :)

Well, this is why it is important to do the reading. But then, we've all been doing the reading and adjusting as we learn new stuff and when our experiments suggest that one thing or another is a better answer. I certainly couldn't understand why I wasn't going into ketosis after weeks and weeks. Well, obviously, I was eating too much protein.

But maybe, at the beginning, eating more protein is not such a bad idea because then you are still getting some carbs (converted from the extra protein) and that can help ease you into the lower protein amounts.

So, it looks like the shopping bag gets even lighter and cheaper, as the food amounts are much, much lower than on a high carb diet, even taking into account the cost of 'good' meat, and it will last longer too. :)

Keep in mind that fats are still pretty much unlimited except for your own limits which you will discover by experimenting. And carbs should stay pretty low.