Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 Crashes in Ukraine


The Living Force
Source (Dutch only): Minister Blok: 'Oekraïne gaat meewerken aan MH17-onderzoek'

DeepL Translator said:
Minister Blok: 'Ukraine will cooperate in MH17 research'.

Thursday 10 October, 2019 16:15

Ukraine is going to participate in a 'fact-finding' investigation into that country's role in the MH17 disaster. That's what Minister Blok of Foreign Affairs says. He visited the Ukrainian capital Kiev.

The investigation concerns the question why the airspace was open at the time of the disaster. The Dutch Safety Board concluded in 2015 that Ukraine should have closed the airspace above the battle zone.

Blok explained the issue in a conversation with Ukrainian President Zelensky, he says to the ANP. "I have explained that the next of kin have been wanting this for a long time and that the House has adopted a motion on this subject." Zelensky has agreed to cooperate, the Minister made known.

A proposal by the CDA and SP for an investigation into Ukraine received the support of all parties present in the Lower House, at the beginning of October. According to CDA Member of Parliament Chris van Dam, the investigation is urgently needed.

'Memories fade away'.

"Time is running out. Memories fade, data is lost", Van Dam said a few weeks ago. "It's about understanding for the next of kin, knowing if anything could have been prevented, grasping what happened. This is also about justice. And it's about learning from situations like this for new, similar situations."

So far, the cabinet has not taken any steps against Ukraine. It is trying to maintain a good relationship with Ukraine, also because of the intensive cooperation in the international investigation. Last year, the Netherlands, together with Australia, decided to hold Russia liable as a country.

At the insistence of the House of Representatives, Blok is now setting out the possibilities for a fact-finding study into the role of Ukraine. Cooperation between the two countries faltered last month, when an important MH17 suspect was extradited from Ukraine to Russia.

Translated with

Related news (Dutch only): Rutte krijgt Australische onderscheiding voor uitstekend optreden MH17

DeepL Translator said:
Rutte receives Australian award for outstanding performance MH17

09 October 2019 08:55 Adjusted: 09 October 2019 09:23

Rutte gets the award

Prime Minister Mark Rutte has received a special award in Australia for his efforts after the downing of flight MH17.

Rutte was included as a 'Honorary Companion' in the 'Order of Australia' and received the corresponding award for his 'excellent leadership after the downing of MH17' and the 'good cooperation between the Netherlands and Australia'.

The special medal is given for exceptional achievements and merits to Australia or humanity in general.

Australian Prime Minister

Rutte is currently in Australia for a three-day visit. Australian Governor General David Hurley handed over the award. His wife and Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison were also present.

Prime Minister Mark Rutte, Linda Hurley (wife of the Governor General), Governor General David Hurley and Prime Minister Scott Morrison

Companion of the order of Australia

MH 17

In the air disaster more than five years ago, 38 Australians also lost their lives. Rutte has stood up for the next of kin in an impressive way, says Morrison, and has always worked closely with Australia.

The two countries work together, among other things, in the international team that investigates the situation and held Russia liable last year.

Shoulder to shoulder

The Australian Prime Minister assures that his country will continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Netherlands in the pursuit of clarification and justice for MH17.

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The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Source (Dutch only): Minister Blok
Blok comes up in this article (authored by Eric Zuesse) on Helmer's site.

There is a lot here and links need to be assessed. The general rationale, however; even in this thread, was MH17 and those horrible deaths became a harbinger of a massive world focus on Russia played out on the news repeatably. The game was afoot, and yet Malaysia became a sudden problem without a solution. This created an unraveling of sorts. It was about then that damage control came in with the likes of Bellingcat and their miraculous rise, directly parachuted into the global media network headlines and photo evidence narratives (another story).

Zuesse seems to be lining up Obama here, and perhaps it comes down to him being like Bush on 9/11 with the neocons' show (in every sense of that political word) that rocked the world; he did not know what or when, he did not plan, yet others did or knew it was being handled (albeit speculation).

Nine paragraphs down a video is cited to watch that was originally done in 2014 by StormCloudsGatering (placed it at the end). It was also posted on SoTT in 2014 here.

This is an update:

By Eric Zuesse*


The Netherlands Government is resisting an effort by the families of the Dutch victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 to find out why, on July 17, 2014 – the day Flight MH17 was shot down when over the eastern Ukrainian civil war zone — this passenger aircraft had been guided by Ukraine’s air-traffic control to fly through, instead of around the war zone (as it instructed other airliners).

On October 1, 2019, now more than five years after 196 Dutch nationals were killed in that incident, the Dutch RTL News headlined (as auto-translated into English) “Cabinet considers research into Ukraine’s role in disaster MH17”. RTL reports that “the cabinet will examine whether further research is possible on the role of Ukraine in the disaster with Flight MH17.” The cabinet was being pushed, RTL said, by “a proposal … for the investigation [which has] received the support of all Parties present in the second chamber” of the Dutch Parliament.

The RTL report added that “so far, the cabinet has not taken any steps against Ukraine. As far as we know, nothing is happening behind the scenes.” Furthermore: “Last year, the Netherlands, together with Australia, decided to identify Russia as the country culpable. For the liability of Ukraine, according to the cabinet, there was ‘no evidence’ and also ‘no research needed’.” Moreover, Dutch Foreign Minister Stefan Blok said then that ‘we don’t see any reason for an investigation’ into that, because ‘the government is trying to maintain its relationship with Ukraine,’ and ‘because then both the airspace of Ukraine and that of Russia should be looked at,’ and because ‘there are still no indications that Ukraine can also be held liable.’”

In actual fact, from the very start of that investigation, there has been a secret agreement not to blame Ukraine for anything to do with the incident. This agreement is kept secret from the Dutch people. Blok, in resisting an investigation of why Flight MH17 was guided over the civil-war zone, was simply adhering to the secret agreement the Netherlands had signed with Ukraine on August 8, 2014. If now he were to agree to the victim families’ demand, he still would be obligated, by Holland’s 2014 agreement with Ukraine, to decide that Ukraine was not a perpetrator in the downing. But the Dutch families don’t know this.

As I reported back on 24 August 2014, the secret agreement signed on August 8, 2014, between Netherlands, Ukraine, Belgium, and Australia, gave Ukraine veto power over any finding that the four governments’ official “Joint Investigation Team” (JIT) would issue regarding the shoot-down of MH17. Initially, Malaysia was excluded from the Team; it was finally admitted into the Team, after agreeing to the secret terms, including that there was to be no blame for Ukraine. Russia’s RT headlined on November 20, 2014, that “Dutch government refuses to reveal ‘secret deal’ into MH17 crash probe”. This revealed that the Dutch Government was refusing to comply with its own Freedom of Information law by keeping the agreement secret. On June 14, 2016, the website “What Happened to Flight MH17” headlined “The vague role of Malaysia in the Joint Investigation Team”, reporting that the JIT had actually been formed officially on August 7, 2014, and noting that “in the limited number of public communications by JIT it is not mentioned what the role of Malaysia is in the criminal investigation.”

Malaysia, unlike the other four state members of the JIT, isn’t a member of America’s core anti-Russia alliance, which includes NATO and Australia. Malaysia is instead a neutral nation and is therefore considered untrustworthy by the others.

Subsequently, on July 21 2019, Max van der Werff and John Helmer revealed that Malaysia’s Government rejects the “findings” of the JIT which have blamed Russia, with no reservations, for downing the MH17. By declaring this position publicly, Malaysia isn’t violating the August 8, 2014, JIT agreement, since Malaysia isn’t saying Ukraine is culpable in the incident. Instead, Malaysia is saying that further investigations are needed, and that Malaysia possesses the black boxes and other crucial evidence.

The present report is an update of the evidence for the MH17 shoot-down over the breakaway Donbass region of Ukraine. The additional facts which will be reported here regarding the incident shock me. At the time of the incident I knew that US President Barack Obama had become desperate for something to happen which would persuade German Chancellor Angela Merkel to endorse added sanctions against Russia regarding Ukraine. But I had had no idea, until now, as to what direct involvement, if any, Obama had had in the actual set-up of the MH17 shoot-down. All of the evidence for the following can be clicked through to the ultimate sources by the reader: this is important to do for any reader who is skeptical and who wants to see the source evidence for any claim that seems outlandish. It’s important especially because the case which will be presented here stuns even me, who voted three times for Obama, first in his 2008 primary against Hillary Clinton; then once again in his 2008 general election contest against Republican John McCain; and finally, once more, yet again, in his 2012 general election contest against Republican Mitt Romney. Romney, incidentally, right now is arguing for President Trump’s impeachment and replacement by Vice President Mike Pence. Romney is famous for having said, during his 2012 campaign against Obama, that “Russia, this is, without question, our number one geopolitical foe”).

Then I knew that Obama was the lesser of two evils. Now I recognize I had had no idea of how evil that actually was. Here I shall report what I now know. This extensively documented reconstruction of the MH17 incident and of how it came about, seems to me to disprove the basic Western ‘historical’ narrative about how international relations work in our time, and to signal the necessity for a fundamental rewrite of the mainstream view of world history. At the very least, the MH17 case disproves the mainstream historical narrative as it’s being presented in our time. Whatever the truth may turn out to be, it certainly cannot be anything even approximating that narrative.
The essential background information regarding the MH17 must be presented at the start, and it’s accurately portrayed in an 11-minute video. The first news report to display in an easily comprehensible way all of the crucial facts necessary in order to understand the MH17 event and what caused it, was an 11-minute video compilation. It was uploaded to Youtube on March 12, 2014 – that’s to say four months before MH17 was shot down. Watch the film here. In my opinion, after reviewing it many times and assessing it from many different perspectives, it is absolutely accurate. Beyond that, it provides the essential background information and context in which to understand the MH17 event.

This will be a summary to be followed by the evidence, each item clickable to each ultimate source. The first sentence of the summary will summarize the essential background information to the MH17 event; I mean the background information that’s essential in order to be able to understand the information that is to be newly introduced here regarding the MH17 event.

President Obama not only perpetrated the February 2014 bloody coup in Ukraine which he had started to plan no later than 2011 and then put into operation on March 1, 2013, inside the U.S. Embassy in Kiev. That was months before the democratically elected Ukrainian President whom Obama was to overthrow decided for Ukraine not to accept the EU’s offer of membership. But Obama and his NATO allies were so determined to reverse the breakaway of Crimea and Donetsk, from Ukraine, which had resulted from the coup, that Obama and his NATO then set up the shoot-down of the MH17 airliner by Obama’s newly-installed government in Kiev with the objective of putting the blame on Russia and creating thereby a pretext for the European Union to join the U.S. in escalating sanctions against Russia. What the most recent information shows is this: Obama and his NATO were intending to use these manufactured false accusation against Russia as a pretext not only to hike anti-Russia sanctions but also to invade both Donetsk and Crimea in order to coerce those two regions back again into Ukraine. The reasons why that plan failed (was aborted) were, first, that Malaysia’s Government held in international law the unchallengeable right of ownership over the airliner’s black boxes; and, second, that there was one NATO leader in particular, Germany’s Chancellor Angela Merkel, who judged that Obama was risking a new European war and therefore refused to join in Obama’s scheme. When Obama consequently decided against moving into a military campaign in eastern Ukraine without Merkel’s approval, the immediate risks to Europe were avoided. Furthermore, Malaysia’s hold on the black boxes was a particular problem for Obama and NATO, because Malaysia’s Government suspected that preparation for a U.S.-NATO invasion of Donbass and Crimea might induce Malaysia to go public with what it already knew about the lies in the US-NATO version of what had happened to MH17. Try as he, the Dutch and the Australians did, Obama lacked the ability to prevent that response from Malaysia. So, not only Germany, but also Malaysia, held a decisive power in the situation, and Obama yielded to it.

Also noteworthy — especially for Dutch citizens and the families of the passengers on that airliner — the Netherlands Government had been one of the largest financial backers of the February 2014 U.S.-planned overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected President. For example, the Dutch Government (“Embassy of the Netherlands”) was the largest single donor, listed at $793,089, to Hromadske TV, which was the leading station that advocated for forcing that President out of power. Whereas the U.S. Government had organized and ran the overthrow, and spent far more on it (over $5 billion) than did any other nation or individual, the U.S. was only the second-largest donor to that station, at $399,650. So: Holland’s government had a significant investment in the post-coup regime, even before that post-coup regime shot down the MH17 plane and thereby slaughtered its 283 passengers, of whom 196 were Dutch.

A relevant early news report from me was published on June 7, 2015, titled “Obama Sidelines Kerry on Ukraine Policy”. This noted that Obama supported the position of Victoria Nuland, the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, in backing an all-stops-out, US- supported invasion of Crimea and Donbass by Ukraine’s Government, and that Obama rejected the position of her boss, John Kerry, the Secretary of State, who opposed such an invasion by Ukraine. “Kerry, for his part, now faces the decision as to whether to quit … or else for Kerry to stay in office and be disrespected in all capitals for his staying on after having been so blatantly contradicted by his subordinate.” Obama had arranged for either Nuland or Vice President Joe Biden, or Geoffrey Pyatt, the US Ambassador in Kiev, to tell Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to prepare in advance of any such invasion something that would compel the European Union to hike sanctions against Russia, so as to lay the international groundwork for it. Part of their instruction would have been the assurance to Poroshenko that the US Government would unreservedly back Ukraine in their accusations against Russia. This is why the JIT had on it only vassal-regimes of the U.S. That part of the plan worked. But then Malaysia got in the way.

The MH17 scheme wasn’t the only instance when Obama undermined Kerry’s work: he likewise did it when Kerry favored a US agreement with Russia that, in a Syrian war ceasefire, not only ISIS but also Al Qaeda-led forces in Syria could continue to be bombed. Russia was bombing both, America was bombing only ISIS; and Obama refused to accept a ceasefire in which Russia would be allowed to continue its bombing of Al Qaeda, not only of ISIS. He was determined to protect Al Qaeda in Syria. That was the ultimate humiliation of Kerry, and effectively ended his career in government.

My last major report on MH17 was on December 31, 2018, “MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine’s Guilt Now Proven”. That was the conclusive checkmate against the US-NATO case for blaming Russia for MH17.

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The Living Force
Thanks Voyageur for your time and contribution. :thup:

You may not have noticed that this article was already mentioned in Reply #1,079 (previous page) and carried on SOTT as well. Doesn't hurt to have it all spelled out once more in full detail. ;-D


The Living Force
Source: Key MH17 Suspect Tsemakh Says Netherlands Offered Him Citizenship - The Moscow Times
Key MH17 Suspect Tsemakh Says Netherlands Offered Him Citizenship

Nov. 1, 2019

Vladimir Tsemakh gave his first interview since being swapped in a high-stakes prisoner exchange between Russia and Ukraine. Screenshot Youtube

In his first interview since being released in a prisoner swap between Russia and Ukraine, key MH17 witness Vladimir Tsemakh said Dutch and Australian officials offered him Dutch citizenship and a house in the Netherlands during interrogations.

Tsemakh, a Ukrainian citizen, was kidnapped in the Donbass by Ukranian security services on June 27. He had been recorded on video saying that he commanded an anti-air brigade in eastern Ukraine and hid evidence of a Buk missile system, leading observers to speculate that Tsemakh may be a key witness in the 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. In September, Tsemakh was sent to Russia as part of a high-profile prisoner swap between Kiev and Moscow.

In the interview [in Russian] with the state-run RIA news agency, Tsemakh described how he was questioned by Russian-speaking Dutch and Australian police officials in Ukraine this summer.

“They offered [me] witness protection, Dutch citizenship and a house in the Netherlands,” Tsemakh said, adding that he refused their offers.

Tsemakh also said that he considers himself a victim of Ukrainian terrorism.

“They had no evidence against me. I did not participate in the [MH17] events...I only found out about the accident ... in the morning the next day.”

Tsemakh is currently believed to be residing in territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.

Source: Key MH17 Suspect Ready to Testify in Eastern Ukraine, Lawyer Says - The Moscow Times
Key MH17 Suspect Ready to Testify in Eastern Ukraine, Lawyer Says

Nov. 8, 2019

Key MH17 witness Vladimir Tsemakh is ready to provide testimony to Dutch and Ukrainian investigators about the plane tragedy, but only on pro-Russian separatist territory in eastern Ukraine, his lawyer has said.

Tsemakh, who was captured by Ukrainian forces and later returned to Russia for fighting on the side of pro-Russian rebels in the Donbass, had been filmed saying that he commanded an anti-air brigade and hid evidence of a Buk missile system. Observers speculated that he may be a key witness in the July 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine that killed all 298 people onboard.

Anatoly Kucherena, Tsemakh’s lawyer in his European human rights court lawsuit against Ukraine and the Netherlands, told [in Russian] the state-run TASS news agency that his client is “scared” of testifying, but is ready to do it nevertheless.

“He takes everything that has happened to him pretty hard, but he’s still ready to give evidence to both Dutch and Ukrainian investigators to protect his good name,” Kucherena was quoted as saying Thursday.

“He agrees to do this only on DPR territory," Kucherena clarified, referring to the Donetsk People’s Republic, one of two self-proclaimed proto-states in the Donbass region of eastern Ukraine. Tsemakh is currently believed to be residing in eastern Ukrainian territory controlled by pro-Russian rebels.

No one has yet approached Tsemakh to offer the “various interrogation formats,” the lawyer who also represents American whistleblower Edward Snowden said.

“My client and I voiced our principled willingness to testify. Everything else is subject to negotiations,” TASS quoted Kucherena as saying.
Ukrainian security services kidnapped Tsemakh, a Ukrainian citizen, on June 27. In September, Tsemakh was sent to Russia as part of a high-profile prisoner swap between Kiev and Moscow.

In his first interview since the prisoner exchange, Tsemakh said last week that Dutch and Australian officials had offered him Dutch citizenship and a house in the Netherlands while he was held in Ukraine.

Sources in Dutch:
MH17-verdachte Tsemach: 'Nederland bood mij paspoort en huis aan'
'Verdachte commandant Tsemach wil getuigen in MH17-proces'

'MH17-verdachte Vladimir Tsemach wil getuigen'
'Verdachte commandant Tsemach wil getuigen in MH17-proces'


The Living Force
Main source: MH17 Witness Appeal November 2019
Too long and too complicated to copy/paste here in its entirety. Also available in Russian language.

MH17 Witness Appeal November 2019

The Joint Investigation Team (JIT) releases a new witness appeal in the criminal investigation into the downing of flight MH17 on 17 July 2014. The JIT is looking for information on the individuals within the military and administrative hierarchy who enabled the shooting down of MH17 in Eastern Ukraine using a BUK TELAR. The JIT wants to get in touch with further witnesses who are able to testify about these command lines and the role that Russian government officials might have had. Today, the JIT releases further recorded conversations. Below we summarise these conversations and ask you specific questions.

Table of contents

  • Russian influence on the ‘Donetsk People's Republic’
  • Means of communication
  • Areas of influence - Administration
  • Areas of influence - Finances
  • Areas of influence - Military operations
  • Conclusion
  • Trial information
  • Contact the JIT
  • Witness safety and protection
  • Reduction of Sentence for Ukrainian crimes
  • Safe communication
  • More information

Overview (Dutch only): JIT: Rusland en separatisten hadden voor MH17-ramp dagelijks contact
DeepL Translator said:
JIT: Russia and separatists had daily contact before the MH17 disaster

NOS News - Domestic -Foreign - Today, 12:00 - Adjusted Today, 15:13

Russia's influence in eastern Ukraine prior to the MH17 disaster went beyond providing military support to rebels alone. That's what the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) says, making a new call for witnesses today.

Further investigation, including telephone conversations between rebel members and Russian government officials, suggests that the Russian security service FSB had daily contact with the rebels on administrative, financial and military matters.

In addition to normal telephones, the rebels also used locked forms of communication. It seems that Russia not only gave the means of communication to the rebels, but that high-ranking Russian officials also had daily contact with the rebels via these lines. The JIT wants to know which persons used these numbers.

The Dutch and Australian police are the spokespersons for the call, because it concerns the investigation part of the case.

From the previous call for witnesses, in June 2019, it had already emerged that the leadership of the 'People's Republic of Donetsk' (DPR) had contact with Russian government officials about military support in Eastern Ukraine.

'Shoygu's Mandate'

In one of the talks that the separatists had with Russian officials, a DPR commander said that "men come with a mandate from Shoygu". Sergey Shoygu is the Russian Minister of Defence. According to the commander these men would "kick local warlords out of their units" and "people from Moscow" would take over the command.

Witnesses to the DPR, who spoke to the JIT, also confirm that the elite of the separatists was led by Russia. Their testimony is confirmed by recorded telephone conversations.
David Jan Godfroid
As far as I can see, it is not possible to infer directly from this that Russia was (directly) involved in bringing down the MH17.
However, it is once again clear that Russia, despite numerous denials, had a very big finger in Eastern Ukraine. 5 hours ago

The JIT wants to know who gave orders to separatist leaders Aleksandr Borodaj and Igor Girkin in the summer of 2014. The research team also wants to know what role Vladislav Surkov (senior Russian government official), Sergey Akshonov (Russian appointed leader of Crimea), Aleksandr Bortnikov (director FSB) and the aforementioned Shoygu have played. Their names are mentioned in the phone calls.

In addition, JIT wants to know who Vladimir Ivanovich is and what role he played in Eastern Ukraine in the summer of 2014. A man who introduced himself by that name made several telephone calls to the separatist leaders.

The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs says in a reaction that the released tap conversations are partly false and unconfirmed. A spokesman said that she had seen a lot of 'evidence' coming out in recent years, but that they always raise more questions than provide answers. According to Russia, the investigation is not transparent, biased and, from the outset, aimed at putting the blame on Russia.

New call for witnesses

In the criminal investigation into the downing of flight MH17 the JIT is now making a new call for witnesses. The investigation team wants to hear more witnesses to find out who ordered the firing of the BUK rocket that shot down the plane on 17 July 2014.

The appeal, which was distributed in English and Russian, focuses on the chain of command between the East Ukrainian separatists of the DPR and Russia. The JIT makes a series of recorded telephone conversations public and asks questions about them.

The call for witnesses is separate from the trial of four suspects, including separatist leader Girkin, who the Dutch Public Prosecution Service will prosecute for their involvement in the MH17 disaster. Their trial will begin on 9 March 2020.

Translated with

Dutch sources in English:
MH17 investigators issue new appeal for witnesses to Russian influence -
Russian officials named in discussions on downing of MH17: JIT

Other source in Dutch:
'Russische rol bij MH17 steeds duidelijker'

Russian reaction (Dutch only):
Moskou: tapgesprekken MH17 deels vals
DeepL Translator said:
Moscow: tap conversations MH17 partly false

ANP 3 hours ago

MOSKOU (ANP/RTR) - The tap conversations that researchers from the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) have released on the MH17 flight are partly false and unconfirmed. This is what the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs says in a reaction.

On Thursday, the JIT announced that the Russian influence in the plane disaster went beyond the mere provision of aid. This is what the team concludes from conversations that rebel leaders had with senior officials within the Russian government.

But Moscow says that the authenticity of the tap conversations has not been confirmed. Speaker Maria Zakharova of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said at a press briefing in Moscow that the world is being flooded with what she called fake news. As a result, it is vital to test the authenticity of such recordings, she added.

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