Organic Portals: Human variation

Ruth

The Living Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

nktulloch said:
So are you saying we should give a hoot otherwise we may be OPs?
It more likely (imo) that people who care or emotionally react to a situation are non-OPs.

nktulloch said:
I don't know if an OP is simple or not. Observing the behavior of other vertebrates tells me that 'simple creatures' are not simple, and so, I would not presume to think an OP would be either. What you wrote about it being more interesting to study souled people seems to contradict.
We're talking about souls here, not behaviour or physical characteristics. My conjecture is that ops are simpler souls in comparison to non-ops. And, that they are probably less likely to want to 'study' anything at all, let alone care about things that are non-mechanical. I suppose you might say it could be described as indifference.


nktulloch said:
What makes it completely incorrect? If OPs exist there must be OP like behavior although I can only speculate what OP like behavior may be based on what I observe within myself and the world around me and what the Cs, Mouravieff, and others have said about the types of humans.
The op-like behaviour you are observing is really just another name for STS like behaviour. If a person can't tell the difference between ops and non-ops, then how can they know what op-like behaviour is? Its simple, a person can't. Its also reasonable that there needs to be other things about ops which are different from non-ops. If a person goes round simply observing STS behaviour and attributing it to ops, then they are most likely wrong about what ops are. It has to be something more than that. Maybe, if we weren't so involved with STS and making it the 'root of all evils', we would see that ops are different from non-ops in other ways.

nktulloch said:
How do you know a person is souled? or how do you know a person is an OP?
Firstly, we are all souled. Some of us have 'souped-up' souls (50%?) and some don't. This isn't something thats a big deal, it just 'is'... And it's not even new. The problem that STS non-ops have is that they become all racist. Completely uncessessary, imo, but fits into the STS 'profile' quite nicely. So, the problem of 'seeing' an op and not, tends to come back to the STS problem of heirachy and 'wanting to be better' than others (which is where the idea of 'spot the OP' comes as well as 'all ops are bad'..etc, etc.). I'm getting a bit sick of it because it really does seem so silly.

nktulloch said:
I don't. This is what I was getting at by using the term 'spot the OP' as in it's not an easy matter to know.
I'm not entirely sure I know either. I have some ideas, but they seem to be mostly ignored, while people say that I must be playing some silly game of 'spot the op'.. because I'm saying something different. The emphasis seems to be put on not 'seeing' something in favour of 'seeing' something. And all this, because of an STS heirachy which is absolutely irrelevant to 'seeing' anything at all.

nktulloch said:
How do you know you have a soul? What is a soul? These are just a few of the questions raised.
I start with the assumption that we all have souls and that they tend to become more 'souped-up' or complicated (developed?) as they move towards 6th density (the opposite of entropy). Of course, this has nothing to do with STO and STS. All people on this planet have souls. Its the degree of complication that confuses people. It seems to me that if there can be physical evolution, then souls can evolve too. Perhaps it goes hand in hand?

nktulloch said:
This is what it amounts to when we try to describe OPs as this or OPs as that. We don't know. At least I don't know.
I have some ideas, but they may be wrong too. I'm not sure if this means I 'know' anything at all. It could mean nothing at all.

nktulloch said:
All I do know is that based onthe Cs and Mouravieff and Gurdjieff's description of the different types of man, what we call an OP is a person with a different level of awareness-i.e. lacking potential for higher centers. Therefore, the behaviors of such a person have certain mechanicalness relative to those who capable of higher centers AND are ACTIVELY working on getting those centers running correctly. We are not talking psychopaths here as that is another kettle of fish in my opinion.
Yes, that's pretty much what I think, although at the moment, I'm inclined to think that a person is either an op or not and it has nothing to do with what one is working on, or thinks one is working on. I'm less inclined to think that an op would be interested in working on anything to do with the soul. They are more mechanical and that's not a bad thing, neither is it something that should concern non-ops.

nktulloch said:
Precisely because it is complex,is why I think we should look at ourselves and how we relate to others more so than wonder what OPs do and don't do. Are we mechanical or are our choices conscious ones? We have to get to know ourselves more before we can presume to know others.
It may actually be quite simple, only STS is trying to make it complicated. I think we need to think a little less about our higher centers and a little more about how to become STO. Anything can become mechanical, if we wish it to be. If we stay STS, then we are doomed regardless on how 'souped-up' our higher centers are, we'll just end up working for the Lizzies.

nktulloch said:
ruth said:
It would be kind of ironic if the people who think they are manipulated (us) are actually the ones manipulating OPs - or at least representative of those that do. Afterall, we are STS, so it would not surprise me at all if OPs are first and foremost manipulated by non-OPs.
I don't quite understand. Are you saying that non-OPs are possibly manipulating OPs?
Sure, why not? Afterall, STS manipulates everything and everyone for their own benefit and to others detriment.


nktulloch said:
I can see how this could be Maybe I used the term "OP like behavior" too loosely so you misunderstood. OP like behavior in my mind doesn't necessarily mean 'bad'. I am making an assumption, however. The assumption is that OP like behavior is any behavior that lacks a certain level of consciousness. In other words, mechanical behavior compared to one who is aware. That is what I was getting at. I think that we should see how we behave mechanically whether good or bad. Our mechanical behavior makes it easy for us to be manipulated into serving an STS agenda whether we are OPs or not. It also causes us to manipulate others, whether those others are OPs or not. So yes, us 3D earthlings are STS. Half are OPs other half are not really, although many of the non-op half may behave as if they lack a certain level of conscious awareness. In otherwords behave OP like.
I'm not sure why you think that mechanical-like behaviour automatically causes us to manipulate others, when its our orientation which does this (sts versus sto)? It takes consciousness to manipulate others, and this is because consciousness decides whether we are going to treat people in an sts manner or an sto manner. If you were to take it to the extreem, a machine is neither sts nor sto, because it doesn't have a consciousness. When was the last time your car told you what to do, or your mobile phone manipulated you? :D So, it is entirely possible that non-ops with the more 'souped-up' soul ( or developed consciousness) can manipulate ops who are much more mechanical. This would be up until any group of ops figured out they are being manipulated, then they may turn into a force to be recconned with. Unfortunately, most would not have the consciousness to see past their own mechanicalness in order to 'turn on' their (sts) manipulators.

nktulloch said:
I would say we are all STS. So I can agree with saying we are STS until we choose not to be. This is what we are whether OPs or not because we 'fit' on an STS planet. It would include manipulation all around until we learn enough about ourselves and the world we live in to be able to choose to stop being mechanical AND stop manipulating. But mechanicalness and manipulation are separate things.
Oh, goodness me, I think I just said that, but it was in response to your "It also causes us to manipulate others, whether those others are OPs or not. "

I don't think mechanicalness causes manipulation, sts causes manipulation.

nktulloch said:
Even if not being mechanical makes it easier to stop manipulating, not being mechanical doesn't mean one WILL CHOOSE to stop manipulating. I think this is where the term "we are all OPs comes until we choose not to be" comes from.
Its interesting to know where the idea comes from, but I still think it is incorrect. We are all STS until we chose not to be. A person is either an op or they are not, and it looks like the only ones who can chose to change to STO are those that have the souped-up consciousness of the non-op. Ops on the other hand can chose to become individuated or more 'souped-up' souls, if they like. And, I suppose it's then that they have to confront and make choices about STS.

nktulloch said:
As long as we are unconscious of our mechanical behaviors, we often manipulate and lie to ourselves and others. Those who are capable of conscious/non-mechanical action but choose to manipulate in whatever way must be consciously STS, psychopaths even. At this point the discussion becomes a different topic so I will stop here except to say that I also see a rather mechanical routine to your participation in discussions regarding OPs. This may be a conscious choice on your part or maybe not. What others may mean when they say you're doing it again begs the question of whether or not you are conscious of what you are doing when it comes to this particular topic.
Absolutely conscious of it. People need to start to 'see' and stop self-justifying their own blindness and 'sitting on the fence' about things (a term that has also been applied to me at one stage, too). None of this "If you don't say what we want to hear, you are manipulating/mechanical/psychopathic". If people really wanted to 'see', they wouldn't accuse me of doing or being these things, in an effort to avoid 'seeing' what I'm trying to say. How mechanical is that? How manipulated is that? All of it is done via STS btw, not ops.
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

Ruth said:
Absolutely conscious of it. People need to start to 'see' and stop self-justifying their own blindness and 'sitting on the fence' about things (a term that has also been applied to me at one stage, too). None of this "If you don't say what we want to hear, you are manipulating/mechanical/psychopathic". If people really wanted to 'see', they wouldn't accuse me of doing or being these things, in an effort to avoid 'seeing' what I'm trying to say. How mechanical is that? How manipulated is that? All of it is done via STS btw, not ops.
~sigh~ Ruth - does it ever cross your mind that, perhaps, you are actually the one who does not 'see'? Does it ever cross your mind that, perhaps, the reason people tend to, as you put it, 'avoid what you're trying to say' is because what you're trying to say doesn't mesh with all the gathered data, and that despite seemingly endless discussion about exactly that, you still tend to always emerge on the other side of that discussion untouched and unchanged by it?
 

Ruth

The Living Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

anart said:
~sigh~ Ruth - does it ever cross your mind that, perhaps, you are actually the one who does not 'see'?
Since this opinion has been repeated to me over and over again (like a recorded message). Haven't you ever wondered why I've never taken any notice of it? Must because I don't agree with it - not because I'm not 'seeing' what you (and others) are trying to program me with. :lol: Perhaps its just that I disagree with some of the information that people have come up with, on some level. There has to be a better option than 'this is a recorded message' option, like perhaps, oh shock horror, discussion.

anart said:
Does it ever cross your mind that, perhaps, the reason people tend to, as you put it, 'avoid what you're trying to say' is because what you're trying to say doesn't mesh with all the gathered data, and that despite seemingly endless discussion about exactly that, you still tend to always emerge on the other side of that discussion untouched and unchanged by it?
Well, I'm simply just 'overwhelmed' with all that 'gathered data', floating around, which surpisingly doesn't seem to provide us with any better a clearer picture of ops than we had before. If it did, then everybody would be able to understand humanities situation better, as well as their own, and be able to know what an op is when dealing with one and how they fit in to this place.

Perhaps I'm so used to being ignored that I assume people don't want to know about anything that doesn't 'mesh' with their own personal programs?

It all just seems like platitudes, unknowns and 'esoteric constipation' to me. Have you ever wondered why no progress is being made, or is that just people 'pretending' that progress is happening via a painful process of wishful thinking? I don't mean to be a 'party pooper', but really, how much has changed and how much have we learned? We seem to have gone absolutely nowhere which seems to be the sum total of anyone saying anthing that 'meshes' with gathered data (whatever that is)... People seem to be stationary, not moving and in total agreement with things that have absolutely no relevance and worse still are neither being used nor questioned.

Or, perhaps people are just ignorant and would like to stay that way? Well, as you said ~sigh~. I don't want to stay that way, though. Its not good to become 'stuck' repeating the same things over and over again. But, then, I'm not the only one doing this am I??
 

brainwave

Jedi Master
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

What others may mean when they say you're doing it again begs the question of whether or not you are conscious of what you are doing when it comes to this particular topic.

Ruth said:
Absolutely conscious of it. People need to start to 'see' and stop self-justifying their own blindness and 'sitting on the fence' about things (a term that has also been applied to me at one stage, too). None of this "If you don't say what we want to hear, you are manipulating/mechanical/psychopathic". If people really wanted to 'see', they wouldn't accuse me of doing or being these things, in an effort to avoid 'seeing' what I'm trying to say. How mechanical is that? How manipulated is that? All of it is done via STS btw, not ops.
The above implies that you are concious that your mechanical responses to threads relating to OPs are attempts to force people to " 'see' and stop self-justifying their own blindness and 'sitting on the fence' about things." No one is telling you to say what we want to hear. We are asking what makes your ideas correct since in your actions everytime the OP issue comes up for discussion appear to be that of the expert. Are the cass chat and forum members that have responded to your OP ideas over the years so avoidant about seeing things that you must resort to mechanical responses to make us see it YOUR WAY? I guess we mechanically respond to you too. We just keep accusing you of stuff instead of seeing. Right? I guess I am doing it again here when I say that I hope you recognize that what you are conscious of doing should also be applied to yourself.


Ruth said:
Since this opinion has been repeated to me over and over again (like a recorded message). Haven't you ever wondered why I've never taken any notice of it? Must because I don't agree with it - not because I'm not 'seeing' what you (and others) are trying to program me with. Perhaps its just that I disagree with some of the information that people have come up with, on some level. There has to be a better option than 'this is a recorded message' option, like perhaps, oh shock horror, discussion.
I have to wonder then why stick around if you not only disagree with it but think we are trying to program you. There have been discussions Ruth, for years and over several forums. Because you are in such disagreement about the ideas from almost everyone else, it stops being discussion FOR YOU. People with differing ideas can discuss but not with Ruth. Ruth is special because people have pointed out things they see or fail to see and when they tend to agree with each other, Ruth always seemed to disagree just to be contrary. I always wondered why she would always do this. Now I know, Ruth disagrees with others because their ideas become according to her "trying to program" her. Heck if I were her I wouldn't stick around if I could help it in such situations.

Ruth said:
Well, I'm simply just 'overwhelmed' with all that 'gathered data', floating around, which surpisingly doesn't seem to provide us with any better a clearer picture of ops than we had before. If it did, then everybody would be able to understand humanities situation better, as well as their own, and be able to know what an op is when dealing with one and how they fit in to this place.
You though know what an OP is, right Ruth? All the data is overwhelming for Ruth, especially when it doesn't support the ideas that Ruth have about the topic.


Ruth said:
Perhaps I'm so used to being ignored that I assume people don't want to know about anything that doesn't 'mesh' with their own personal programs?
Pehaps this is the case for you.

Ruth said:
It all just seems like platitudes, unknowns and 'esoteric constipation' to me. Have you ever wondered why no progress is being made, or is that just people 'pretending' that progress is happening via a painful process of wishful thinking? I don't mean to be a 'party pooper', but really, how much has changed and how much have we learned? We seem to have gone absolutely nowhere which seems to be the sum total of anyone saying anthing that 'meshes' with gathered data (whatever that is)... People seem to be stationary, not moving and in total agreement with things that have absolutely no relevance and worse still are neither being used nor questioned.
Well I guess that not only do you not agree, surely you must have the correct answers that we just can't see. Do you have some practical stuff that is superior to 'esoteric constipation' then? Why haven't you started your own website and forum to discuss the ideas that you have that we so obviously ( based on your assumption) don't want to know about. Why keep trying in vain with a bunch of stationary people who try to program you, to boot?
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

Ruth said:
Since this opinion has been repeated to me over and over again (like a recorded message). Haven't you ever wondered why I've never taken any notice of it? Must because I don't agree with it - not because I'm not 'seeing' what you (and others) are trying to program me with. lol
Ok I won't respond to your points directly Ruth, because I think that all that needs to be said has already been said to you over and over in other threads like http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=457&p=1 (as you have yourself obviously noticed), and so it'll be a waste of time. But I will point out an irony of sorts about this thread that seems to stick out to me.

No offense, but your situation reminds me of EsoQuest's situation. The C's at some point promised Laura and the group that "help will come", and Eso was convinced, in a very high and mighty arrogant sort of way, that HE was that "heaven-sent" assistance that was promised, that HE was the best thing to ever happen to this group. He thought he would teach us all a lot from his higher knowledge and wisdom. Well, the irony there, is that he DID teach us a lot, but totally not in the way he intended. For those who don't know the situation, read about it here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2343
The reason I bring this up is because you keep saying how the evidence we have doesn't help us understand OP's better, and you try to explain your reasoning about OP's and what they are and what they aren't, and try to break us out of our programs and our attempts to "program you" and of course every time there is a lack of understanding between you and the group, it's because the group is full of programs and assumptions. But again the irony here is, you ARE teaching us about OPS, you ARE providing us with new evidence and understanding of OPS, but totally not in the way you intended.

I thought that was ironic. And when you say "OP's are such simple creatures" etc, and talk so confidently about your understanding of "them", I just can't help but sense something extremely ironic, strange, and yet funny about that. Go figure :\
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

Ruth said:
I have a tendency to think that there is more intrinsically 'bad' about non-ops than ops...
This has nothing to do with programs - this is how I c it:
Totally wrong aproach to start with Ruth...
from the point of creation whats good and whats bad?!
would you call animal intrinsically good or bad, i guess you wouldnt and the animals are way behind organic portals on the scale of soul evolution

generalization is generally bad so we shouldnt apply it on OP's either,
some of them are on the path of creation , and those are decent folks just like you or me, the only difference being that they are unable to grasp certain things in the same way you and I can

or can we?
people are trying to gently explain certain things here and you wont budge for an inch, maybe its time to step back start from zero

one of the things I like very much about QFS is the promotion of "the thinking with a hammer"
so I will apply the same thing here:
"When presented with the question, the trick is not to shrink the question so it can fit your brain but quite contrary, we have to try to expand our brain in order to be able to deal with all aspects of question"
once you become aware of this your world changes
cheerio :)
 

knowledge_of_self

The Living Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

Ruth said:
Since this opinion has been repeated to me over and over again (like a recorded message). Haven't you ever wondered why I've never taken any notice of it? Must because I don't agree with it - not because I'm not 'seeing' what you (and others) are trying to program me with. Perhaps its just that I disagree with some of the information that people have come up with, on some level. There has to be a better option than 'this is a recorded message' option, like perhaps, oh shock horror, discussion.
You know what Ruth, several times in the past I have asked you why you are here and what it is that you look for in this group and you never answered me, until now. You are here not to learn, network, and far from the doing the process of the Work. Ie.Facing programs within, when an objective network mirror tells you, what they 'see' and you never care.

You are only here to convince others of your views. What is funny, is that you have come to your views because of Laura and her work the C's. Yet, you say this:

It all just seems like platitudes, unknowns and 'esoteric constipation' to me. Have you ever wondered why no progress is being made, or is that just people 'pretending' that progress is happening via a painful process of wishful thinking?
No progress being made?? That is laughable. This site has made so much progress during the past few years; I find it hard to keep up with all the excellent work being done here. But then again, I actually care to do the Work.

I don't mean to be a 'party pooper', but really, how much has changed and how much have we learned? We seem to have gone absolutely nowhere which seems to be the sum total of anyone saying anthing that 'meshes' with gathered data (whatever that is)... People seem to be stationary, not moving and in total agreement with things that have absolutely no relevance and worse still are neither being used nor questioned.
Maybe no progress is being made for you, because you have several blocks due to your programs that don't allow you to input new and objective material. Or maybe no progress is being made foryou because you don't actually read the material presented by this group and the recommended books. Or maybe you do read them... but the words just fly past you cause of more blocks??

Or, perhaps people are just ignorant and would like to stay that way? Well, as you said ~sigh~. I don't want to stay that way, though. Its not good to become 'stuck' repeating the same things over and over again. But, then, I'm not the only one doing this am I??
Perhaps YOU are ignorant and want to stay that way? You say "I don't want to stay that way." But in you responses you have said it very clearly that the problem is not you, but this group and their presented info, which is full of "wishful thinking" and seems like "esoteric constipation". It seems to me you are doing and are becoming what you don't want to become.

It seems to me that according to your responses, you have an *I* that does not belong here. It is up to you to look within yourself and see if this *I* is closer to the 'real' Ruth or if it is just an *I*. Because if this *I* is what Ruth 'is' than, you do not belong here.

Nina
 

Ruth

The Living Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

knowledge_of_self said:
No progress being made?? That is laughable. This site has made so much progress during the past few years; I find it hard to keep up with all the excellent work being done here. But then again, I actually care to do the Work.
I was talking about people, individuals or souls. How much progress have each of them made?

I know I'm looking for something, but it just doesn't seem to be there. I'm not sure what it is, but it just isn't there.

Something is missing and if you take away all the words and assumptions, what have you got? Are people really getting anywhere or changing themselves, accept in their own mind and through their own definitions. I'm not really sure they are and this makes me very sad.

Of course, I fully expect everything I say to be turned back around onto me and get made my problem. Nobody seems to be able to change that. We all reject the mirror especially the people who don't think they do.
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

I apologize ahead of time for how harsh this is going to sound, but this has gone on long enough...

Ruth said:
I know I'm looking for something, but it just doesn't seem to be there. I'm not sure what it is, but it just isn't there.
All evidence points to the fact that this is a reflection of who you are Ruth, and nothing more. For you, it is true that whatever you are looking for is not here.

Ruth said:
Something is missing and if you take away all the words and assumptions, what have you got? Are people really getting anywhere or changing themselves, accept in their own mind and through their own definitions. I'm not really sure they are and this makes me very sad.
You speak only for yourself and from your own perspective here again, Ruth - my life has changed in too many ways to count and all in the positive, but this is something you clearly cannot understand - this is not really any big problem, simply move along and leave us to what works for us and find what works for you somewhere else - it is past time for that.

Ruth said:
Of course, I fully expect everything I say to be turned back around onto me and get made my problem. Nobody seems to be able to change that. We all reject the mirror especially the people who don't think they do.
You fully expect this to happen because it has happened over and over as countless people have tried to help you understand what you seem incapable of understanding. You expect it to happen, yet you have absolutely no understanding of why it keeps happening. I apologize for having to spell it out for you, Ruth, but this has gone on long enough - your endless pontification on topics of which you have no grasp needs to stop. It has been suggested before, more than once, but - again, just in case it sinks in this time - perhaps if you found a forum or a 'school' that catered to your own interests and understandings more, you would be much more happy.

Please consider carefully your response to this - this forum has been VERY patient with you on this topic up to this point, but there are limits.
 

Beau

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

Ruth said:
I was talking about people, individuals or souls. How much progress have each of them made?
This is entirely irrelevant to the Work. You should be worrying about YOUR progress. Anyone can go and make assumptions about the progress of others, but the truth is that you have NO idea about how other's have progressed. You just cannot SEE that well at this time. That much is clear just from this thread. What a shame some of the things you have written.


Ruth said:
Something is missing and if you take away all the words and assumptions, what have you got? Are people really getting anywhere or changing themselves, accept in their own mind and through their own definitions. I'm not really sure they are and this makes me very sad.
Talk about subjectivity! You know what, I wouldn't expect you to be able to see any progress or change from people. I'm not surprised one bit. This is how Ruth sees the QFS: a static group of people who program others to think like them.

At least you finally stated how you REALLY feel about us.

Ruth said:
Of course, I fully expect everything I say to be turned back around onto me and get made my problem.
Oh, poor Ruth. Nobody will understand the Grand Truth that flowed from Ruth's lips. It's a tragedy.

And your comment about the mirror is a doozy. What a straw man you have set up.

Ruth said:
We all reject the mirror especially the people who don't think they do.
Psychological manipulation notwithstanding, I find your generalization about something SO contextual as a mirror a very telling indicator of your internal mindset. Like SAO said, it's plain ironic.
 

ark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

Ruth said:
Most ops I know seek out programs and 'herds' to join, as a matter of course.
And how do you know you are not an op yourself? How?


Ruth said:
There's nothing unusual or 'individual' about them
There is something "very individual" in criminals who are serial killers without conscience. You are not processing the available information, Ruth. You are not using logic.


Ruth said:
as they would rather have consensus and mediocrity over 'standing out' or being 'different' any dday.
Each day a different way to kill other people. Isn't it the way of being different?


Ruth said:
A 'good little op' is a consumate conformer, imo and really abhores doing anything different or unusual.
With what you are saying - you ARE a conformer. This does not mean you are an op. This does not mean you are not an op.



Ruth said:
My biggest challenge in dealing with ops is that they try my patience, they're so predicable and always looking to validate their precious programs.
How do you know you are not an op, Ruth? You ARE trying OUR patience! I may be an op as well, because I am trying YOUR patience. Think of it. Think logically - if you can.


Ruth said:
Reminds me of an add I saw on TV recently where a spaniel was trying to get a piece of pie off family members having dinner. He goes running round looking for a 'reward' with the voice over saying :"C'mon, c'mon... Am I a good boy? Am I a good boy, or what?" Made me laugh because (imo) that's what ops tend to do.
Aren't you like this spaniel. C'mop, c'mop, I am good Ruth! Am I a good Ruth? :)

Ruth said:
Don't know much about leg shaking though. That seems more like a physical thing than a soul thing to me.
I did not see a spaniel that is leg shaking or picking his brows. On the other note: I am pretty much sure that our doggy Sebastian got a soul of his own :lol:

Sebastuan_almost_human.jpg
 

Lisa Guliani

The Living Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

Henry said something in a post elsewhere on the forum that went something like this, and I'm paraphrasing.
I think this is very important.

Henry was saying:

If we want to learn, we must be open to not only questioning the ideas of others,
but also be open to questioning our own ideas.

Of course, Henry said it better than I did. But the meaning is the same.
 

Ruth

The Living Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

beau said:
Ruth said:
I was talking about people, individuals or souls. How much progress have each of them made?
This is entirely irrelevant to the Work. You should be worrying about YOUR progress.
Of course I should be. Thank you for directing me back to the very root of stsn-ess which is self obsession. Far be it from me to 'give a @#$@' about anybody else, their progress or otherwise. Let me make ME my priority!!! That'll work.... not... Sorry, its not working. Does it work for other people?

beau said:
Anyone can go and make assumptions about the progress of others, but the truth is that you have NO idea about how other's have progressed. You just cannot SEE that well at this time.
Trully, I do appreciate your assumptions on how well or not I can see, if I can see at all (clearly I can't from some peoples, yourself included, perspectives) and whether in the future I will 'see' anything of any import (unless I commence rabid self assessment NOW). It seems clear to me that many people think that becoming STO isn't of the least bit important. First and foremost seems to be the ability to take part in some hierachical pretend humility where we are all supposed to become homogenised in order to ..... progress. And if 'by their fruits we shall know them, this must clearly be nuts, instead of fruit salad.

beau said:
That much is clear just from this thread. What a shame some of the things you have written.
And what (oh-my-God) if I'm right? I don't particularly care about myself, so I'm not really worried about 'shame', especially about the things I've written. I'm sorry that I don't care, but shame has no place in discussion and I don't value it all. It takes a risk to push people off centre (especially some self-righteous people). Sometimes it is necessary, but always a risk. Who cares about risk if it benefits some?

beau said:
Ruth said:
Something is missing and if you take away all the words and assumptions, what have you got? Are people really getting anywhere or changing themselves, accept in their own mind and through their own definitions. I'm not really sure they are and this makes me very sad.
Talk about subjectivity! You know what, I wouldn't expect you to be able to see any progress or change from people. I'm not surprised one bit. This is how Ruth sees the QFS: a static group of people who program others to think like them.

At least you finally stated how you REALLY feel about us.
I don't think I mentioned the QFS (I don't even know who's in it). Also, I didn't think they were supposed to be 'special' in any way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you do seem to be reacting.. to something. Whatever.

If people cared about others, they wouldn't consider themselves to be a 'separate' identity and would have gotten over the need to 'be right' all the time and telling others that they are inferior just because they disagree with you (or maybe even think differently). I'm not sure how much the group (as in QFS) do this, or even how much individuals do this (without realising it)... The only thing I know is that it WON'T serve people. It won't help a person mature or move to STO. A person (and a group, perhaps - I'm not sure) needs to be clear about their objectives as well as their own limitations and for that, they need all the facts.

And as to subjectivity... I believe a person would be better off avoiding STS (within and of themselves). I'm not sure a person can totally escape subjectivity as they cannot escape other peoples STSness either (only their own). I'm not sure totally about an individuals ability to get away from their own subjectivity. People seem to be able to recognise it in others, however.

beau said:
Ruth said:
Of course, I fully expect everything I say to be turned back around onto me and get made my problem.
Oh, poor Ruth. Nobody will understand the Grand Truth that flowed from Ruth's lips. It's a tragedy.
Comedy perhaps? :lol: Sense of humour is very helpful. I'm sure you're aware of it's benefits...

beau said:
And your comment about the mirror is a doozy. What a straw man you have set up.
Oh well, yes... If I only had a brain.... (Wizard of Oz)? Is this the straw man you meant? :D
Oh no! Am I MEANT to be the straw man? No, sorry, I don't 'get' it... Does this mean that I'm SUPPOSED to be setting MYSELF up? Eh? Ok, ok, so now who is it?

beau said:
Ruth said:
We all reject the mirror especially the people who don't think they do.
Psychological manipulation notwithstanding, I find your generalization about something SO contextual as a mirror a very telling indicator of your internal mindset. Like SAO said, it's plain ironic.
Now wait a minute, is this SUPPOSED to be a one way thing, then? I've never thought it was one way. You need to know... Don't sweat the small stuff.
 

ark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

Ruth said:
Of course I should be. Thank you for directing me back to the very root of stsn-ess which is self obsession.
No, Ruth, you are consistently missing the point. You do not listen to what others are saying to you. You twist it consistently in a self-obsessive way.

It is not self-obsession to WORK on yourself. Just the converse! When you are "nobody", then you have NOTHING to give other people but your own confusion. You must FIRST become somebody, with rich and developed self, before you can even think of serving others.
 

Ruth

The Living Force
Passive Organic Portals? & leg/knee Shaking

ark said:
You must FIRST become somebody, with rich and developed self, before you can even think of serving others.
And HOW would you know anything about me? And why would you suggest this?

The fact is you know nothing about who I am (and sometimes I don't), so, how could a person know one way or the other, or why, I have to have a 'developed self'. Why is this the way it must be? Is this is why it this process so slow?

Oh, here it is:

Firstly: Assume that a person (any person) DOESN'T have a developed soul...
Secondly: Tell them to 'go back and 'get' one.... in order to progress...
Thirdly: Assume that they don't know any better when they get 'pissed' at you for being ignorant...

Riiiiight... Do you think it'll work??!!

Is it working now? Or, only with some people?
 
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