Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation - Pauline Christianity = PaleoChristianity

[Voyageur]

In a continued discussion of the book, we had a part 2 show, linked below - and in realizing that there is more we'd like to cover of this material, we plan to do at least one more progam after this week's.

This was a particularity core session, osit, that each of you brought forward in this Paul continuation - that continues in mind because of the depth of what was being conveyed. If anything, the talk laid down markers (guild posts) of reference of the old that are just as seated in the new.

There was not one thing here in the talk of more weight, it was more of the totality of the talk, although the ideas of, as was said, bringing others like G into the field of conscious awareness certainly helps in creating a greater pool in which to draw. And in that sense, Ashworth does the words of Paul a service, untangling centuries of review and misunderstanding (which was also mentioned) into something more in alignment with some of the foundations of what this forum has been about - learning evermore.

Next week's talk may bring it down to the bones, yet whatever the case, these talks have been a service to many of us listening.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Ennio]

Below is show 3 on Paul and his ideas, but because Paul's work (and Ashworth's take in particular) is so strongly tied to what we typically like to cover on the show (which is quite usually what's introduced here), I can't imagine that his teachings won't become a part of the growing context that we'll be drawing on for upcoming discussions as well. Thank you so much everyone for tuning in.

MindMatters: Intentional Suffering: Paul and Gurdjieff on the True Meaning of Crucifixion

The most central image, metaphor and symbol in Christianity is the crucifixion of Jesus. The sign of the cross is ubiquitous in contemporary Western civilization, but what does it really symbolize? What meaning are we meant to derive from it, and how might it be understood and utilized in a way that is vivifying and spirit-strengthening? In this concluding examination of Timothy Ashworth's Paul's Necessary Sin - The Experience of Liberation, we examine the crucifixion in its relation to the death of sin, what Paul the Apostle found so compelling about it, and why he spent the rest of life trying to convey its significance to those he was in contact with.

This week on MindMatters we discuss these allegorical themes which have had the lasting power to affect the lives of many - over many centuries. We will also look at how some of these ideas have been carried over in the work of G.I. Gurdjieff, and how the exposure of humanity to its true, but potentially changeable condition, can be seen, known and addressed.

 

[Voyageur]

Below is show 3 on Paul and his ideas, but because Paul's work (and Ashworth's take in particular) is so strongly tied to what we typically like to cover on the show (which is quite usually what's introduced here), I can't imagine that his teachings won't become a part of the growing context that we'll be drawing on for upcoming discussions as well. Thank you so much everyone for tuning in.

Well, the thanks is ours to each of you for bring us folks through these shows. This one had a great deal of core reflections, to name one - what did you say at one point, Corey, our run away freight trains.

Good work guys!

 

[thorbiorn]

Ashworth really must have had a powerful experience to allow him see through the text. He also helped in redeeming my religious upbringing. I went to a Franciscan high school and their prayer used to be one of my favorite things. In times when I feel too self-focused when I really should be finding energy for others, I've prayed substituting "Lord" with "Divine Cosmic Mind" and it was always useful:

[Oh Divine Cosmic Mind], make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is offense, let me bring pardon.
Where there is discord, let me bring union.
Where there is error, let me bring truth.
Where there is doubt, let me bring faith.
Where there is despair, let me bring hope.
Where there is darkness, let me bring your light.
Where there is sadness, let me bring joy.
O [Divine Cosmic Mind], let me not seek as much
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love,
for it is in giving that one receives,
it is in pardoning that one is pardoned,
it is in dying [in you] that one is raised to eternal life.

Couldn't find the appropriate translation from the way the Franciscans used to pray it. I edited the above to make it closer to the version I used to know. I always understood "It is in dying in you" as we understand it in the Work, like the death of the false personality, but I think Ashworth's discussion is equally helpful.

Thank you for sharing @Gaby. I tried it out after having read it a few times, and when I closed my eyes "bring" became "sow". I wondered about this and began to think that "sow" might be is a milder version, less forceful. I also felt that the two sections of the prayer are so stylistically different that they may have existed separately. Today I looked up this prayer on the Wiki, and they say it is used in the Franciscan order, but that it was not originally from Saint Francis. Saint Francis also made prayers, and those one can find here.

The Wiki mentions:

Franciscan viewpoints[edit]
The Franciscan Order does not include the prayer in its official "Prayers of St. Francis",[6] and a church historian has noted that the phrasing of the first half of the text ("let me...") is atypically self-oriented for Francis:

The most painful moment usually comes when [students] discover that Saint Francis did not write the "Peace Prayer of Saint Francis"... Noble as its sentiments are, Francis would not have written such a piece, focused as it is on the self, with its constant repetition of the pronouns "I" and "me", the words "God" and "Jesus" never appearing once.[7]

However, the prayer has been recommended by members of the order, while not attributing it to St. Francis.[8]

It has been noted that the second half of the prayer has similarities to this saying of Giles of Assisi (c. 1190 – 1262), one of the saint's close companions:

In the link [8] one finds in Children praying for peace: Letter from the Minister General and from the Custos of the Holy Land one finds:

CHILDREN PRAYING FOR PEACE: LETTER FROM THE MINISTER GENERAL AND FROM THE CUSTOS OF THE HOLY LAND
Posted on November-26-2016 in Letters, Minister General, News
To all the friars of the Order of Friars Minor
to the Poor Clares,
to the sisters to the brothers of the Secular Franciscan Order,
and to all women and men of good will
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father” (Matthew 18: 10).
[...]
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

May the Lord give you peace!

For a long time, as Friars Minor, we have been concerned about the situation that our brothers are experiencing together with the Christians and the entire population of Syria. Not long ago, we called on the international community to intensify its efforts to stop the war and the suffering of the civilian population and to make every effort to achieve peace.

Now, at the beginning of Advent, a time in which the Lord Jesus invites us to insistently watch and pray, we want to propose to all our communities the “Children praying for peace” initiative.

In the version of the prayer they use, the word "bring" is substituted by "sow"

Simple prayer for peace
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is discord, union;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is error, Truth;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is sadness, joy;
where there is darkness, light.

O Divine Master, grant That I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving That We receive,
it is in pardoning That we are pardoned,
and it is in dying That we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

We ask all those who take heed to our proposal, to report it on to our Facebook page: www.facebook.com/Children-in-prayer-for-peace.

apparently they are working in the Aleppo region.
And in the Wiki, one also finds.

La Clochette (1912)
The earliest known record of the prayer[36] is its appearance, as a "beautiful prayer to say during Mass", in the December 1912 issue of the small devotional French Catholic publication La Clochette, "the bulletin of the League of the Holy Mass".[5] Although the prayer was published anonymously, Renoux concluded that, with few exceptions, the texts in La Clochette were generally written by its founding editor, Father Esther Bouquerel (1855–1923).[37]

And interestingly, it was was introduced in English by a Quaker magazine in the US:

Mistaken attribution (c.1927) to 13th-century Saint Francis
Around 1918, Franciscan Father Étienne Benoît reprinted the "Prayer for Peace" in French, without attribution, on the back of a mass-produced holy card depicting his Order's founder, the inspirational peacemaker from the Crusades era, Saint Francis of Assisi.[1] The prayer was circulating in the United States by January 1927, when its first known English version (slightly abridged from the 1912 French original) appeared in the Quaker magazine Friends' Intelligencer, under the misattributed and misspelled title "A prayer of St. Francis of Assissi".[40][41] The saint's namesake American archbishop and military vicar Francis Spellman distributed millions of copies of the "Prayer of St. Francis" during World War II, and the next year it was read into the Congressional Record by Senator Albert W. Hawkes. As a friar later summarized the relationship between the prayer and St. Francis: "One can safely say that although he is not the author, it resembles him and would not have displeased him."[42]

If I edit the version from Aleppo and use your editorial changes then it could be something like:

[Oh Divine Cosmic Mind], make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is discord, union;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is error, Truth;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is sadness, joy;
where there is darkness, light.

[Oh Divine Cosmic Mind], grant That I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving That We receive,
it is in pardoning That we are pardoned,
and it is in dying [in you] That we are born to Eternal Life.

And perhaps one could repeat what Gaby wrote after her version about [in you]

Couldn't find the appropriate translation from the way the Franciscans used to pray it. I edited the above to make it closer to the version I used to know. I always understood "It is in dying in you" as we understand it in the Work, like the death of the false personality, but I think Ashworth's discussion is equally helpful.

The experience I had with saying the prayer, as Gaby gave it and then the word "bring" changing to "sow" is maybe an indications that a prayer has some fluidity and that trying it out may give one feedback on whether the formulation could improved in a meaningful way.

The "[Oh Divine Cosmic Mind]" should be said, but the part [in you] could be implied or is is better if that is also said?

Perhaps someone or @Gaby would be able to comment on how Gaby's expression "Ashworth's discussion is equally helpful" might contribute with ideas. For instance I was wondering if one could say as an alternative: "and it with the faith of Jesus/Caesar That we are born to Eternal Life."

One thought I also had was if one could separate the two halves of the prayer, which it seems were two prayers put together.

In the latter part it says in Gaby's version "let me" while the Aleppo version says "grant That I" which I like more even though "let me" is easier to say. The reason is that when I say "grant" it is like asking the Universe if I may be a channel, while "let" has less of that meaning. However, I think one needs to be a native English speaker to decide on this.

 

[Gaby]

In the latter part it says in Gaby's version "let me" while the Aleppo version says "grant That I" which I like more even though "let me" is easier to say.

I pray it in Spanish as I remember it from the Franciscans, adding at the beginning "Oh Divine Cosmic Mind, Ruler of the Mind, Savior of the Soul, Live in me Today".

Perhaps someone or @Gaby would be able to comment on how Gaby's expression "Ashworth's discussion is equally helpful" might contribute with ideas.

This was in reference to the part of the prayer that says "it is in dying That we are born to Eternal Life."

I think it needed an explanation because the average materialistic person might focus on a literal physical death.

I would only add that even though I was even more naive and ignorant when I was a teenager, I always understood intuitively that the emphasis on death was so that a new way of seeing could come into play. The discussion of crucifixion in the Cs session has expanded the awareness on this topic too:

Q: (L) Well, choosing makes me think of what the Apostle Paul was saying when he talked about making... I mean, basically what it amounted to was making your choices based on the unseen world or on unseen realities. In a funny sort of way, today I had like a little realization because I was trying to understand why for Paul, the death of his Christ or the crucifixion was THE most important thing. For him it was the death, not the resurrection. It finally occurred to me that the reason it was so important was because - and this is according to Paul - his Christ went to his death with absolute faith even in the face of everything being wrong and against him. The way it's depicted in the Gospel of Mark, not only did the disciples not understand, not only is he abused, tortured, and rejected by literally everybody... I mean, everybody flees from him in the Gospel of Mark, which is the first gospel. Everybody. There are no women at the cross. There are no supporters. There's nobody. He did that willingly - the way it's depicted, and it's an allegory - because his faith in the unseen necessity and the other world and what would happen after the death was so strong he could and would do it. It was a matter of this faith that what was unseen was more real and lasting that the seen reality. Am I right? Seeing the unseen is the key?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So Paul was concerned with restoring humanity to the Edenic state. He uses the symbol as one man, the First Adam, and death came to all. And then by one man life came to all. It struck me that the possibility... Well, what the C's have said is that when the Fall happened, it happened to everyone. It wasn't just like one person. It happened to everyone. So it seems to me that this primal man that is Adam is a representation of all. It's not just one man that caused everybody to go kaflooey. And they've said that it was the female energy consorted with the STS reality. Is that what we're looking at here, only the reversal of the process? In other words, a group of people that have that kind of faith that in the face of everything being literally awful as it is in our world today, that they still have faith in the other reality, they still have faith in doing good, doing right, being loving, that they do not buy into the whole Darwinian materialistic thing, and basically they don’t believe those lies and by those means they are able to, at a certain point in time that Paul called the culmination of the ages, be restored to this Edenic state... in other words a 4D STO reality. Am I interpreting that correctly?

A: Oh that was beautiful!! We are impressed!

Q: (L) Well la-dee-da! So that's basically what the anchoring of the frequency is about. And that's part of the interior state that people have to be in in order to anchor that frequency - to have that kind of faith. It’s not where you are, but who you are and what you see? Even in the face of everything being against your ideas, against what you think, against what you've figured out...

(Joe) Even things inside you being against you. The internal fight. You have faith that doing what it doesn't like that you will kind of achieve something worth having.

(Andromeda) Right.

(Joe) It's internally and externally at the same time.

(L) So it's not faith IN Jesus as Ashworth points out. It's faith OF Jesus that sets the example. And the example was put in a metaphor of the story of this crucifixion or death, but the metaphor represents basically the crucifixion of every person. They're crucified inside and outside because they are faced with this reality that rejects their consciousness, their more or less divine connection, their spiritual connection. They say that everything is just random mutations and random evolution, and that's wrong. That's the Big Lie.

A: Yes. We can retire now!

I was re-reading the last part of the book and will add some relevant quotes. First, keeping in mind the background from The First Initiation will be helpful:

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like” or “I don’t like,” you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself” blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat” and the “chaff.” No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like” and “I don’t like.” Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely” to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

Bible quotes from Paul's Necessary Sin will be in normal quotes and Ashworth's explanations will be in forum quotes.

"For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, T will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.’ … Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe." (1 Cor 1:18–21)

What this amounts to, when set alongside several other texts from this section of the letter, is Paul’s understanding that what has been done by God is to invert the worldly perception of wisdom. It is the ‘foolishness’ of the apostles that Paul is keen to profess. Clearly this ‘foolishness’ is closely linked with the cross and this will be investigated in the final chapter but it is important to see how consistent Paul’s thinking is on this. He is saying that the wisdom of the world, that is, human wisdom, is foolishness to God but with a very particular sense: human wisdom is an actual obstacle to perceiving the things of God. Just as in the account of the ‘exchange’ or ‘fall’, the assertion of human wisdom leads to the loss of perception of the invisible things of God, so, says Paul, in order to become wise in the things of God, it is necessary to become a fool in the terms of the world. The clear implication is that human wisdom simply cannot perceive the things of God:

"Do not deceive yourselves. If you think that you are wise in this age, you should become fools so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God." (1 Cor 3:18f)

It has been argued (pp. 158–62) that Paul understands the ‘fall’ to involve an ‘exchange’: the identification of humankind with what is created over against the Creator. In Paul’s account of the ‘fall’, humanity comes to be identified with the flesh, that is, with what can be seen and what, of its nature, perishes over time and the assertion of human wisdom – ‘claiming to be wise’ – is integrally linked with this state of affairs. What confirms this picture is the view that Paul takes of human wisdom and the flesh that can be found in the letters to the Corinthians. Any kind of divisive assertiveness is an indication of continuing fleshliness.

"When I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come proclaiming the mystery of God to you in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I came to you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God." (1 Cor 2:1–5)

The last quotation above is one of the reminders to the community about what happened when he preached, incompetent though his preaching might have been. What he says makes no sense unless his listeners recognize what he means when he reminds them of the ‘demonstration of the Spirit and of power’. What sense does it make to boast in weakness and folly unless it is known with absolute certainty by the one who boasts that it is through this very weakness that God’s power is effective? This is where the paradox in what Paul says is revealing. In the human order of things it is wisdom and strength that are effective; what Paul is proclaiming is truly an inversion of this order. Something happens when Paul preaches; he can remind those to whom he preached of the objective reality of what happened to them; but he also affirms that whatever happens arises even though he is subjectively aware of his weakness and folly; it is this combination of real power and real weakness that affirm that the power that is at work comes from beyond the individual preacher. Paul is saying that his work is not any individual activity, that is, it is not ‘according to the flesh’ but it is truly from God.

Paul is stating that he has no concern with fleshly achievement and reputation; liberation is a real ending to identification with concern for the achievement of the separate self identified with a particular fleshly existence; the death of self-interest has already happened in him. His complete confidence that his outward ability is not what is effective in bringing about change in others is his primary evidence that he is called and sent by God, that he is an apostle. Far from being a limitation to God working through him, his awareness and acceptance of his limitations are necessary for the powerful and effective transformative work of God to operate through him. He, like those others called to be apostles, is thus a forerunner of a way of living that human beings were created for and that will come eventually to all: living free from any selfishness, filled with the Spirit, living by faith understood as guided by the prophetic word.

From the perspective of the old life, characterized by identification with separate existence, the power of the apostles is misunderstood as human authority and wisdom. What Paul expresses is that it is only with an end to identification with separate fleshly existence that the authority and wisdom of God can work. What he says of himself is that he lives no longer (Gal 2:20). It is this end of the separate self that is essential for the authority and wisdom of God to operate through the apostle.

That is why those who ‘boast’ in any achievement cannot be true apostles

"W]e entreat you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." (5:20)

The designation of his task as the ‘ministry of reconciliation’ evokes an activity that is completely oriented to peace; however, it is clear that his work is anything but peaceful.

I myself, Paul, appeal to you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ – I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold towards you when I am away! – I ask that when I am present I need not show boldness by daring to oppose those who think we are acting according to the flesh. Indeed, we live in the flesh, but we do not wage war according to the flesh; for the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but they have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ. (2 Cor 10:1–5 incorporating text in footnotes)

So the paradox is that the ministry of reconciliation involves a kind of warfare. What needs to be seen is that essential to the ministry of reconciliation is not only the peace making task of liberating or absolving from sin. Along with this goes another task that was also referred to in Chapter 1: bringing people to a new perception of sin, a recognition that they are sinners in a way that they had not previously been aware of. It is not difficult to see that such a task – exercising what Paul calls ‘divine power’ to oppose any ‘fleshly’ human assertion against the knowledge of God – has the potential to bring strong resistance and acute conflict. What follows is further evidence that this is indeed what Paul is speaking of.

"If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you." (1 Cor 14:23–25, RSV)

And a revised translation:

"But if all are uttering prophecies, the visitor, when he enters, hears from everyone something that searches his conscience and brings conviction…"(1 Cor 14:24, REB)

"For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest the wrongness of his deeds should be exposed." (John 3:20, adapted RSV) (John 3:20, adapted RSV)

An essential part of the meaning proposed is that it is the nature of something as ‘wrong’ that is exposed to an individual; this exposure leads to a judgement that a thing (a deed or an idea for example) not previously seen as wrong is so and is, by implication, seen by that individual to be in need of change.

"But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, his wrongness is exposed by all, he is scrutinized by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you." (1 Cor 14:24f, adapted RSV)

Paul is presenting here a description of how, through the mouths of others, the prophetic word of God exposes, scrutinizes and discloses the secret wrong of the individual, in other words, reveals the personal state of sin of the unbeliever or outsider. As a consequence of this extraordinary activity of the community, ‘the secrets of his heart are disclosed’ and the unbeliever is convinced that it is not by any human ability that the truth about himself is revealed but that it is God who is speaking to him through the word of prophecy and hence he declares that ‘God is really [Gk ‘living’, ‘existing’] among you’ (1 Cor 14:25). In this unique passage. Paul is describing the effect of a community led by the Spirit, actively guided by the prophetic word of God, upon unbelievers, that is, those on the outside. Something previously hidden and painful for the individual to see is revealed as an essential part of the experience of liberation.

This provides further support for the view that central to the experience of transformation as explored in this book is a revelation about the old life as essential to entry into the new. That old life is now newly revealed as a form of slavery or death. What Paul speaks of is liberation from a fundamental state of sin that stays unexposed until it is revealed in the process of liberation; only its consequences in ‘sins’, in small or great acts of wrongdoing are seen. It is this that explains why he can be both strongly positive and negative about the law. Within the old life it is an extraordinary blessing, providing guidance from God in a state of blindness; once blindness is revealed in the coming of the new life, the law is no longer necessary, indeed it is a temptation to pull back from demands of the adult life of faith.

"[W]hen ye received from us the word of that which is heard of God, ye accepted not the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe. … [F]or ye also suffered the same things…" (1 Thess 2:13f, adapted RV)

"Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practise cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God." (2 Cor 4: 1f, RSV)

 

[thorbiorn]

This was in reference to the part of the prayer that says "it is in dying That we are born to Eternal Life."

I think it needed an explanation because the average materialistic person might focus on a literal physical death.

I would only add that even though I was even more naive and ignorant when I was a teenager, I always understood intuitively that the emphasis on death was so that a new way of seeing could come into play. The discussion of crucifixion in the Cs session has expanded the awareness on this topic too:

Thank you for sharing your perspective, I read it slowly - hoping I would understand it still more deeply. It reminds me of a recent episode of MindMatters which also brings up the concept of dying: MindMatters: Intentional Suffering: Paul and Gurdjieff on the True Meaning of Crucifixion -- Sott.net. A few paragraphs are read from In Search of the Miraculous (ISOTM), where Ouspensky presumably is quoting a lecture by Gurdjieff. These sections found and copied are inserted below including the times in the video, in case anyone wishes to hear the reading and comments form the MindMatter team.

[Slide 48:11] "But in order to be able to attain this or at least begin to attain it, a man must die, that is, he must free himself from a thousand petty attachments and identifications which hold him in the position in which he is. He is attached to everything in his life, attached to his imagination, attached to his stupidity, attached even to his sufferings, possibly to his sufferings more than to anything else. [Slide 48:44] He must free himself from this attachment. Attachment to things, identification with things, keep alive a thousand useless I's in a man. These I's must die in order that the big I may be born. But how can they be made to die? They do not want to die. It is at this point that the possibility of awakening comes to the rescue. [Slide 48:59] To awaken means to realize one's nothingness, that is to realize one's complete and absolute mechanicalness and one's complete and absolute helplessness. And it is not sufficient to realize it philosophically in words. It is necessary to realize it in clear, simple, and concrete facts, in one's own facts. [Slide 49:24] When a man begins to know himself a little he will see in himself many things that are bound to horrify him. So long as a man is not horrified at himself he knows nothing about himself. A man has seen in himself something that horrifies him. He decides to throw it off, stop it, put an end to it. But however many efforts he makes, he feels that he cannot do this, that everything remains as it was. [Slide 49:44] Here he will see his impotence, his helplessness, and his nothingness; or again, when he begins to know himself a man sees that he has nothing that is his own, that is, that all that he has regarded as his own, his views, thoughts, convictions, tastes, habits, even faults and vices, all these are not his own, but have been either formed through imitation or borrowed from somewhere ready-made. [Slide 50:09] In feeling this a man may feel his nothingness. And in feeling his nothingness a man should see himself as he really is, not for a second, not for a moment, but constantly, never forgetting it. [Slide 50:24]

"This continual consciousness of his nothingness and of his helplessness will eventually give a man the courage to 'die,' that is, to die, not merely mentally or in his consciousness, but to die in fact and to renounce actually and forever those aspects of himself which are either unnecessary from the point of view of his inner growth or which hinder it. [Slide 50:44] These aspects are first of all his 'false I,' and then all the fantastic ideas about his 'individuality,' 'will,' 'consciousness,' 'capacity to do,' his powers, initiative, determination, and so on.

"But in order to see a thing always, one must first of all see it even if only for a second. [Slide 50:59] All new powers and capacities of realization come always in one and the same way. At first they appear in the form of flashes at rare and short moments; afterwards they appear more often and last longer until, finally, after very long work they become permanent. [Slide 51:19] The same thing applies to awakening. It is impossible to awaken completely all at once. One must first begin to awaken for short moments. But one must die all at once and forever after having made a certain effort, having surmounted a certain obstacle, having taken a certain decision from which there is no going back. [Slide 51:39] This would be difficult, even impossible, for a man, were it not for the slow and gradual awakening which precedes it.

"But there are a thousand things which prevent a man from awakening, which keep him in the power of his dreams. [Slide 51:54] In order to act consciously with the intention of awakening, it is necessary to know the nature of the forces which keep man in a state of sleep.

This ends the part quoted in MindMatters. It seems one could read The First Initiation as being complementary to this quote. Regarding the expression at the end: " it is necessary to know the nature of the forces which keep man in a state of sleep.", it reminded me of what Ashworth writes as quoted in the post by Gaby: "Something previously hidden and painful for the individual to see is revealed as an essential part of the experience of liberation."

In ISOTM, the above section continues and moves onto the parable of the Magician and his sheeps which in a time where "Programming is complete" is more than a mere tale.

"First of all it must be realized that the sleep in which man exists is not normal but hypnotic sleep. Man is hypnotized and this hypnotic state is continually maintained and strengthened in him. One would think that there are forces for whom it is useful and profitable to keep man in a hypnotic state and prevent him from seeing the truth and understanding his position.

These forces may act inside our minds and bodies and also outside.

"There is an Eastern tale which speaks about a very rich magician who had a great many sheep. But at the same time this magician was very mean. He did not want to hire shepherds, nor did he want to erect a fence about the pasture where his sheep were grazing. The sheep consequently often wandered into the forest, fell into ravines, and so on, and above all they ran away, for they knew that the magician wanted their flesh and skins and this they did not like.

"At last the magician found a remedy. He hypnotized his sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned, that, on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it. Further the magician suggested to his sheep that they were not sheep at all; to some of them he suggested that they were lions, to others that they were eagles, to others that they were men, and to others that they were magicians.

"And after this all his cares and worries about the sheep came to an end. They never ran away again but quietly awaited the time when the magician would require their flesh and skins.

"This tale is a very good illustration of man's position.

One may laugh at this tale, but when looking outside and inside, it is actually not very funny at all.

 

[thorbiorn]

Since MindMatters have done a three videos on the subject of Paul's Necessary Sin, of which I only mentioned one in the previous post, perhaps it is time to mention all of them together, rather than one by one:
MindMatters: Necessary Sin - What Was The Apostle Paul Really Saying About The Nature of Spiritual Transformation?
See Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation - Pauline Christianity = PaleoChristianity
MindMatters: 'Adulthood of Spirit' - How To Leave Behind Childish Things And Become Spiritually Mature
See: Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation - Pauline Christianity = PaleoChristianity
MindMatters: Intentional Suffering: Paul and Gurdjieff on the True Meaning of Crucifixion
See: Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation - Pauline Christianity = PaleoChristianity

 

[luc]

I stumbled upon a very short book (more of a long article) called "God's Glory Rising" by a guy called Eddie Kincheloe - it's kind of a little sermon really, or something you might read in Sunday school. While there are caveats, I think he captures some of the things discussed in Paul's Necessary Sin quite beautifully. It also speaks of the power of Paul's thoughts that despite all the corruptions, his core message is still discernible. Below is an excerpt with some things in bold that caught my eye.

Happy Easter everyone! ✝

Internal Battles

To walk in the Spirit, we must first quit walking in the flesh. We must ditch self-centeredness and become Christ-centered, placing the needs of others before our own. But be warned, the flesh with its selfishness challenges every move in that direction. As mentioned before, we may not have a problem with the big sins; it’s the everyday desires, comforts, luxuries, frustrations, and other demands placed on us by our flesh that can entice us. Such sins of the flesh block the release of our spirit. A good rule of thumb is “if it isn’t love, it’s probably flesh.” Nonetheless, self-sacrifice does indicate we’ve made progress toward walking in the Spirit.

Jesus told His disciples, “If any man desires to come after Me, let him deny himself [his “self” life], and take up his cross, and follow Me” (Matthew 16:24, italics mine). Before we can deny ourselves, we must discover our selfishness, a process that isn’t easy or pretty.

The best way to unmask our selfishness is to commit to stop being selfish. That’s when we discover how far we’ve fallen. We are able to see someone else’s selfishness when we recognize we’re being critical ourselves. Walking in love requires giving in, and to, other selfish people. Seeing selfishness in others makes it easier to see it in ourselves. We realize it permeates our entire being, influencing every decision.

Do we ever win? I don’t know. Sometimes I walk in the Spirit, but I probably walk mostly in the flesh. Armed with the knowledge presented herein, I’m beginning to get it. Maybe I’m just beginning, but I’m closer than I once was.

Most Christians seem to think the battle with our flesh is over when we quit smoking, cussing, chewing, getting drunk, lying, cheating, stealing, and fornicating—oh yeah, and gambling. Some will go on to fight lust, pride, maybe anger, and a few other sins, while remaining oblivious to selfishness and love for the world. However, it is selfishness and love for the world that the Lord hates the most.

It was the flesh that gained dominance at the fall of man. In God’s eyes, love for the world has always been tied to the flesh and always will be. If worldly love influences the flesh or dominates the [redeemed] spirit in any way, it is still present and needs to die.

Jesus’ first message was “repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17). Repent from what? Whatever the flesh drives us to. When the Holy Spirit begins drawing us, He convicts us of sin and urges us to quit sinning altogether. When does His conviction end? It must not stop until the flesh has no voice in anything we do. We never quit repenting. Oh, maybe when the flesh and self are dead, but I wouldn’t know. I’m not there yet; are you?

A well-known twentieth-century Christian teacher from China, Watchman Nee taught that salvation doesn’t save us from hell; it saves us from a world that is going to hell. Well, Satan is the “prince of this world,” and we all know where he’s going to wind up. Those who are still part of his system will go there with him. Why would any of us want anything to do with Satan’s world when we know mingling our lives with it breaks God’s heart? Think about it: James 4:4 says that friendship with the world is enmity against God and a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

What did Jesus mean when He said in John 16:33, “In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world”? I’m guessing He meant He had never yielded to any of the world’s attractions. He had never let his flesh enjoy its enticements. Included in His grace is everything we need to overcome. Now we must be overcomers.

I don’t know anyone who knows much about the kingdom of God. Why do you think that is, when Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:33 to seek the kingdom first? Sometimes I think the Mennonites are closer to getting it right than anybody else. I don’t know how close to the kingdom they get, but at least they attempt to leave Satan’s world.

Love Is Also the Answer

We can answer all of the above questions with one word: love. Love, which is selfless, is the opposite of and the antidote to self. Romans 5:5 tells us the Holy Spirit pours out God’s love, or “sheds God’s love abroad,” in our hearts. One way this outpouring can occur is for us to apply the “love examples” from Christ’s Sermon on the Mount.

In Mark 12:30, Jesus quotes the greatest commandment, “Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.” Let’s examine strength. How do we love with all our strength?

In the natural we build strength with strength training. This happens by pushing against resistance. It is hard work, repeated countless times over a long period of time before we acquire a more muscled body with increased strength. As we grow stronger, we increase the resistance with each workout, taking our muscles to the very brink of collapse.

We increase our love strength the same way. Let’s look at the command of the Lord “Give to all who ask of you.” Did He say give to all? In my city, “askers” stand on every major street corner, holding signs, telling passers-by of their plight. And what about freeloaders’ pursuits to obtain money without paying their previous debts? Jesus doesn’t delineate—He tells us to lend without expecting repayment. At this point, self and selfishness get involved, providing the resistance we need to build spiritual muscle. When we push back by giving money to these askers no matter what the case, we choose to love, which builds “love strength.” Giving the “widow’s mite” out of our need really ticks off self.

The resistance we’re pushing against is the reasoning of self—and self always makes good sense: “That person will just spend the money on beer,” “Heck, he makes more money on that corner than I do on my job,” “I know him; he never keeps a job.” You’ve heard it in your mind many times—your “self” is no different from mine. Nevertheless, Jesus didn’t say, “Give to every man who asks of you if you’re sure he won’t waste what you give him.”

Love never takes; it only gives and is selfless. Likewise, love never seeks to benefit from giving. Investing, on the other hand, expects to benefit self. Investing is not love; investors give to receive a profit. However, love never expects a return because God is love’s source.

Love: Much More Than a Trinket

God is love, and love is the essence of His kingdom. Everything in His kingdom emits from love. All true ministry and spiritual gifts spring from it.

When we express love, we share Him and touch others with His hands. He needs us because He expresses His love through us. Wherever love is, there He is.

Love doesn’t flow past the anger and resentment of the flesh. Ergo flesh blocks love. Until we are free from our flesh, we are not free to love—and love is the badge of the sons of God.

Although love does grant a sense of fulfillment, love is more a choice than a feeling.

Love will prevail in His Church in the last days, filling every event with His presence.

“God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16), and love is the most powerful word, the most powerful concept, in the Bible.

As we are conformed to His image (see Romans 8:29), love will become our primary attribute. Learning to love is basic training for living in His kingdom. When the Church learns to react out of the impetus of love instead of self, God’s kingdom will come “on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10).

God’s power is rooted in love and His kingdom empowered by it.

Love is the driving force behind every godly, mature act and reaction.

Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, as challenging as it may seem, presents only the basics for walking in the Spirit—but without love, achieving even the basics is futile.

We can measure our love by our lack of self. As self decreases, love increases, and vice versa. Though crucifying the flesh may be painful, afterward we will be spiritually refreshed and edified.

Because Hebrews 11:6 tells us we cannot please God without faith, walking in faith is likely the committed Christian’s preeminent desire. Yet in 1 Corinthians 13:2, Paul indicates faith without love is worthless: “If I have faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”

The world can have faith, selfish faith, in ways such as the power of positive thinking or with faith for things such as a new car or a bigger airplane. The question is, what do we see with this kind of faith, love or self? For Christians, such faith may reveal that we’ve been captured by the world’s bling. Our faith can make things happen and even move mountains, but, without love, it holds no value in
God’s economy. With this principle in mind, let’s take a closer look at Paul’s love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13, and contrast love and self: Verse 4

• “Love suffers long [is patient].” How do we act when it comes to that slow driver in front of us? Self has many impatient words for that slowpoke. Love is patient only when self is absent.
• Love “is kind.” One definition of kindness is that we “show ourselves useful.” Kindness abounds with good deeds and is gentle with others. Self is kind when not threatened or irritated, or has something to gain.
• “Love does not envy [is not jealous]” but rejoices with others’ successes. Self must always win and demands ascendancy, a trait of Lucifer (see Isaiah 14:13–14).
• “Love does not parade itself [brag]” and “is not puffed up [arrogant].” Self demands respect and speaks of its great accomplishments. Verse 5
• Love “does not behave rudely [act unbecomingly].” Self speaks its mind and gets even when offended.
• Love “does not seek its own.” Self says, “What’s in it for me?”
• Love “is not provoked.” Self becomes annoyed, frustrated, and angered when self isn’t served. (Remember the slowpoke?)
• Love “thinks no evil” because love doesn’t keep record of a wrong suffered. Self has his rights! Everyone agrees that when self is wronged, he protests loudly and holds a grudge forever. Verse 6
• Love “does not rejoice in iniquity [unrighteousness, or evil], but rejoices in the truth.” Truth reveals unrighteousness. Self is okay with self-righteousness and always seeks to look good in other people’s eyes. Verse 7
• Love “bears all things.” In other words, love “covers all things with silence.” When others cause us pain, love protects their reputation, quietly bearing the pain alone without seeking sympathy.
• Love “believes all things.” Whatever God says, love believes. Self seeks first to understand and then analyzes what it cannot figure out.
• Love “hopes all things.” We often use the word hope in terms of “longing for something to happen.” But, in a biblical sense, hope means “to have great expectation that something will happen.” A lot like our word faith, hope doesn’t sit back and wait, but makes plans and preparations.
• Love “endures all things.” Love perseveres through every trial with patience, tenacity, obedience, and godly fear. Self takes the easiest way out, complaining violently.
• Love is as infinite as God is. If we desire to exhibit Him to the world, our goal should be to let every facet of His love shine through us. In so doing, we will be conformed to His image (see Romans 8:29).

Common logic says hate is the opposite of love. Not so—self is the opposite and the enemy of love. Hate is only one of self’s character traits.

Satan would have gotten rid of love, but he couldn’t get rid of God, so he perverted love by using his tool, the flesh. He had to corrupt love because it destroys all of his plans.

This narrative merely scratches the surface of what pure love is. Love protects, heals, saves, and gives, and we cannot be the consummate Church of the living God who is love until it permeates all we do.

God Wants Us Dead

Denying ourselves begins the process of taking up our cross to follow Him. Follow Him where exactly? Well, His cross led Him to His death, and so will ours.

As believers we have a tendency to think that since Jesus bore our cross, we are relieved of the responsibility of bearing it. That is not true. God wants us dead to the world and alive unto Him (see Romans 6:11). Until we reach that point, we cannot legitimately say as Paul did in Philippians 1:21, “For to me, to live is Christ.”

A dead person counts everything disposable if it means advancing God’s kingdom (see Philippians 3:8). In fact, everything is dung if we “love not the world” according to 1 John 2:15. When the Lord is our life, our life in this world means nothing.

Likewise, when self is dead, the world’s enticements no longer attract us. The grave holds no fear and no threat to the man already dead: he loves not his life even “to the death” (Revelation 12:11). As John 12:25 says, “He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”

Our growing love for Jesus creates disdain for a world that will be of no value to us in eternity. We love only Him, those who love Him, and those who need to love Him. Death, whether by the cross or the grave, is our friend and benefactor, which frees us from the bondage of self. Free of the world’s chocolate, we live in the world, but it is not our life. He is our life, and our food is to do His will (see John 4:34).

I don’t consider myself a theologian. If I were to write a book on Christian theology, it would certainly be a pocket edition. But let’s take a look at dying to self through my simple theological glasses.

In Romans 6:2–4, Paul says we are dead, were baptized into Christ’s death, and were buried with Him by baptism. According to verse 6, Paul is referring to the “old man,” or sinful man, what I call “the beast within us,” or “self.” This death of self happened on Jesus’ cross two thousand years ago. Now that our old man is dead, we have to know we are dead (see Romans 6:3), and it becomes our responsibility to reckon, or conclude, we are dead (see verse 11), and choose to be dead and “walk in newness of life” (verse 4). Whew!

Here’s the way I see it: When we accept Christ, God places us spiritually into Jesus’ death because He died for us. We then are seated with Him “For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you” (2 Corinthians 13:4, italics mine). Since “we are weak in Him,” shouldn’t we trust Him in this weakness?

The flesh will fight. Get ready for it. Christ’s flesh fought so hard that, “being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground” (Luke 22:44). To say such a death “will be hard” doesn’t come close to describing the difficulty we face in this death by our cross. However, on the other side of death, we will, as Paul said in 2 Corinthians 13:4, “live with Him by the power of God”—and, of course, I don’t know what that means either, but I’ll bet it’s really good.

The Best of Times and the Worst of Times

Isaiah 60 tells of a time when God’s people are the most attractive people on earth: “Arise, shine; For your light has come! And the glory of the LORD is risen upon you. For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the LORD will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you. The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising. Lift up your eyes all around, and see: They all gather together, they come to you” (Isaiah 60:1–4).

The world is growing darker daily. There is a day approaching so dark, even evil’s most ardent disciples will flee its dangers. Unable to see, they will trip and fall into its many traps.

Concurrently, the Church is growing ever brighter in God’s glory. The light of the Lord rising upon His bride is ushering in the harvest, the end of the age (see Matt 13:39). “Coming to the light” is rescuing those living in darkness from the ever-present danger. The light is so attractive that they are coming “to the brightness of [the bride’s] rising.” The world sees His light through the Church’s good works (see Matthew 5:16).

“God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5). He is the light and the attraction. When self dies, Jesus’ beauty, His light previously concealed by the flesh, reveals the sons of God: “Always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh” (2 Corinthians 4:10–11, italics mine).

What do you think “the life of Jesus” looks like when it is “manifested in our body”? More love? Power? Healings? Lives saved? Lives changed? If His desire is that His will “be done on earth as it is in heaven” and if our hearts burn for His will to come to pass, we must “bear about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus.” Until He returns, Jesus lives on earth in His body, you and me. He died for a lost world. Are we willing to die to reveal Him?

This world isn’t attracted to you and me, no matter how charismatic or beautiful we are. But as the above verses clearly say, when our old man dies, Jesus’ life and beauty will be manifested in us. Then the world will come to the brightness of our rising.

We are indeed the sons of God if we are born of Him. But until He is set free in us, the whole creation waits to see the “glorious liberty of the children of God” (Romans 8:21–22). When we allow the “hidden Christ within” to be revealed, those trapped in darkness will run to His light and beauty. They only wait for . . . the manifestation of the sons of God.

 

[Konstantin]

I just finished reading the book. And all the time as I was reading, one thought was in my mind all the time.
How the hell we ended up with this version of Christianity as we know it today !?

What Paul is it talking about is totally different from what we today call Christianity.

As I understood all this, it would be at least for me impossible to understand what Paul actually means.
If I didn’t have the previous knowledge about C's cosmology and all information that they gave us as a concept about higher realms, then the teaching of Gurdjieff, Castaneda and many more.

So, this book came just in perfect time.

Paul is speaking about the transformation of humankind. Jesus is a symbol of the transformed humanity as Adam is a symbol of humanity that fell from higher STO density existence to a lower 3D STS existence.
Jesus is a concept that can pull out the humanity from living in the flesh ( 3D STS ), selfishness, sin, to a state where the whole humankind will live in a Spirit ( some higher STO reality )

In order to start a life in Spirit, one has to first know the life in the flesh. It means that in order to be in a 4D STO state, you must fell and suffer as a 3D STS learning the lessons that God ( DCM ) has prepared for you. Only when you will see and be aware that that life in the flesh ( 3D STS ) is slavery to a materialistic world, only then you can start your transformation to your STO existence. ( the symbols is the death on the cross and resurrection ). The old person, the old illusion, the old understanding and old behavior must die in order something new to be born. New person, new awareness. But you can't see that until you experience life in the flesh.

Life, death, resurrection, and faith of Jesus are qualities and states that humanity and every person must go through in order to start to live in a Spirit, to start the transformation to a higher STO realm of existence, where selfishness, greed, and material goods are not natural.

Even in all this suffering and struggle in this material 3D STS world, we must have the faith of Jesus that with doing the “work “ when the time comes we will experience the transformation that Paulis talking about, or it is the Resurrection of Jesus.

The Resurrected Jesus is a new humanity, that will be created after this old heavy materialistic world of flesh will be destroyed, by people who think that it is the only one that exists and that it exists just for them. The resurrection of Jesus can also be an individual and personal transformation at first, but sooner or later it is the transformation that whole humanity will go through.

People who are knowledgeable and have faith in the existence of higher STO realms will experience the transformation that Paul is talking about. It can look very depressing, we can suffer, we can be part of this old reality that is falling apart but we must have faith as Jesus have when he was going to his death, that there is something far greater than this 3D STS materialistic world and all those who are aligned with this 3D STS world will disappear as the reality is imploding in its selfishness, evil and greed.

Now I understand better the famous quote of the Cs

Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the past.''

This valuable knowledge called Christianity is probably an ancient knowledge and now I understood why the form that is known today is so different than the one that Pauls is talking about.
All these pathological authorities corrupted the original knowledge, and now it serves for nothing except as a tool of PTB to keep humanity under fear and ignorance.

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

How the hell we ended up with this version of Christianity as we know it today !?

Thank you very much Konsantin. I really enjoyed your interpretation of Paul's Necessary Sin. The glimpses of true Christianity, through the dross added over the centuries, is so startling in it's simplicity and shedding all the dogma we have accumulated becomes an easy task.

 

[Glenn]

I enjoyed reading your interpretation as well, Konstantin.

It can look very depressing, we can suffer, we can be part of this old reality that is falling apart but we must have faith as Jesus have when he was going to his death, that there is something far greater than this 3D STS materialistic world and all those who are aligned with this 3D STS world will disappear as the reality is imploding in its selfishness, evil and greed.

I have certainly been thinking lately, that for those who are so rooted in the physical/material world, this implosion will come as a real shock. I mean, we have such a bigger picture of our reality, and other realms, not to mentions all the lies and corruption holding this illusion together.

For those firmly locked into the physical world, they will have the feeling of going down with the ship. Brings the words, "For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the past.''

 

[YoYa]

Has this book been translated into German - I couldn't find anything.
Guys, I grew up without religion, but I understand what you're doing here and I think it's great. I also have a quiet idea what this book might say, but I need to read it so I can understand.
For tips and advice I am, as always, very grateful.

 

[nicklebleu]

Has this book been translated into German - I couldn't find anything.
Guys, I grew up without religion, but I understand what you're doing here and I think it's great. I also have a quiet idea what this book might say, but I need to read it so I can understand.
For tips and advice I am, as always, very grateful.

I couldn't find any German translation, so my advice would be to read it in English and at the same time to have machine translation of the bits you don't quite understand. One way would be to buy the Kindle version and extract the text from it. You can do that in various different ways, the most easy way would be to highlight what you would like to translate and then copy past the highlight (from the Amazon website) into deepL or similar.

Hope that helps!

 

[YoYa]

I couldn't find any German translation, so my advice would be to read it in English and at the same time to have machine translation of the bits you don't quite understand. One way would be to buy the Kindle version and extract the text from it. You can do that in various different ways, the most easy way would be to highlight what you would like to translate and then copy past the highlight (from the Amazon website) into deepL or similar.

Wow! I didn't know that you can translate whole books with deepl - I'll test it right now. ... Then I could read the rest of Laura's books as well. Wonderful, thank you nicklebleu.

 

[nicklebleu]

Wow! I didn't know that you can translate whole books with deepl - I'll test it right now. ... Then I could read the rest of Laura's books as well. Wonderful, thank you nicklebleu.

Well, it's not as straightforward as that - you cannot extract the whole book at once, unless you have specific software to do so. With the above mentioned method you can only do bits by bits.