Paul's Necessary Sin: The Experience of Liberation - Pauline Christianity = PaleoChristianity


FOTCM Member
I can't help but wonder the opposite - whether a higher morality will stop people from losing their humanity. How do we really know that that is what works historically?
It's not clear cut for sure, but I was thinking not so much in terms of societies but individuals. It's basically Frankl's (or Nietzsche's) idea that 'as long as a person has a why, they can suffer any how'. Or as JBP has often said, that without anything 'higher' on to which to project one's suffering, there is a higher risk of descending into nihilism, which in turn increases the risk of a destructive attitude.


FOTCM Member
It's not clear cut for sure, but I was thinking not so much in terms of societies but individuals. It's basically Frankl's (or Nietzsche's) idea that 'as long as a person has a why, they can suffer any how'. Or as JBP has often said, that without anything 'higher' on to which to project one's suffering, there is a higher risk of descending into nihilism, which in turn increases the risk of a destructive attitude.
Yes, and one part of "perceiving God" as opposed to "living in the flesh" or "worshiping the created instead of the creator", as Paul put it, is an awareness of a higher order of things, and that this higher order matters more than the "created". Which means there are things that are more important even than physical survival. Without this awareness, it's difficult to see how one can't lose one's humanity in the face of terrible suffering and chaos.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Paul likens the process of liberation to the transition between childhood and adulthood: While as a child we had to live under the law of our parents (the Jewish people following the Mosaic Law) to keep us safe and prevent us from walking off the path, at some stage we have to grow up and ‘create our own laws’ as adults (living by Faith). And to be able to do so, we need to intimately know the consequences of our doings (to know good and evil). In that regard, the ‘original sin’ was a necessary stage to adulthood, to emancipate us from the slavery of the Law that was imposed on us from ‘outside’ (given by God).
@nicklebleu: You offered up so many important captures from Ashworth on Paul's words in Greek, along with you own thinking, your own life and lessons, that was so very commendable of you doing so. Reading PNS has been one of the most profoundly interesting experiences for me; wow, it opens up a lot and ties so much together.

What has been amazing is this progression, this journey whereby Laura has been pulling on threads around times, words and ideas, around religious ideas and more, and then you get to Collingwood's historical ideas, which is useful in helping to step back and at the same time step in. How do you do this with Paul, of his world in those times, and that is interesting to not just hear his words but understand and try and see the context of who was around him and what did he know and others around him know and think.

Yes, Stoics were around. Paul appeared to have been networking.

Yes, there was understanding from outside Judaism of different gods, and there must have been understanding and talk of the laws that formed around this one god, laws that were referred to as 'weak and beggarly elements' if going back to.

I could not help get the impression, if not explicitly stated by Ashworth, of Paul's doing in turning the law back against what others said the law was from their own extrapolating understandings of Greek. This was in terms of what Paul had supposedly meant in acceptance of living under the law - he seems to have known it as a yoke). Paul, osit, would certainly have understood different gods; his birth god that handed down the laws, and I can't say, yet was he also opting for a different god than Yahweh? Things don't nesessarily point to it, yet one wonders. Did he recognize that this was possibly a lie the books and the law told him on how to live among gentiles? I mean, how could he not notice what the laws said, and thus if one is wrong (the law) is not the other that provided it? What was of discourse in Rome (and elsewhere) at the time concerning gods? He would have been well aware, and well aware of the other side.

Where other letters, Paul letters, lost that may have said more or even removed; this is not known (although presumably some were), nor if he said more to begin with. And yet, what else was Paul speaking of in town squares, in stadiums and in meetings or just around the table taking meals? This is not known either to any great extent.

Laura brings up examples of where sentences or a string of words in other texts seem to have been adjusted (removed) and reinserted. Once this was in view it was like seeing a trick that becomes hard to go back to being unseen.

Anyway, it is amazing to me that Ashworth even picked up this theme to look at with new eyes. And man, that is no easy task, and yet in looking at words in context, placing himself in Paul, if you will, he was able, successfully osit, to shine light on what otherwise would just pass into the night.

Another book that looked at words and people was the QFG published Carl Zohren work 'Valerius Antis and Caesar,' (shot yet dense) which also looked at things through a Greek lens, and that was really helpful in seeing how things were shaped (part of a progression perhaps) of who said what, who borrowed, and what was missing.

This has all been very humbling, with much more to consider.


FOTCM Member
So it was enough for one person (Eve) to get us humans all kicked out of the Garden of Eden (the fall), but it is the action of one person again that will liberate all of humankind.
Thanks for the synopsis nicklebleu. It seems that while some things Paul says ring true for all ages, when he talks like he does in the above, he may be talking only for the time in which he lived, and the legacy of Caesar, and the relative "liberation" that the example of Caesar's life offered to many.

It's pretty clear to us now, at least, that there is no one person that is going to liberate all mankind, and the Cs have given us a much broader and expansive explanation on how the process works, which so far, seems to be the explanation that most closely maps to the reality we observe.


Hello ,,Nicklebleu,, ; (Pozdrav ,,Nicklebleu,,)

The text that follows is a translation from Serbian into English, a Google translation
(Tekst koji slijedi je prevod sa srpskog jezika na engleski, Gugl prevod)

Excerpts from the post #113 ; (Izvodi iz posta #113)

Quote 1 - En
The concept of the ‘original sin’ never really made a lot of sense to me. What’s wrong with knowledge? And if it was a ‘forbidden fruit’, why the hell did God (omnipotent, omniscient) put the damn tree in the Garden of Eden in the first place?
Citat 1 - Sr
Koncept 'izvornog grijeha' nikada mi nije imao puno smisla. Šta nije u redu sa znanjem? A ako je to bilo 'zabranjeno voće', zašto je Bog (svemoćni, svemogući) stavio prokleto drvo u Edensku baštu na prvo mjesto?

Quote 2 - En
So it was enough for one person (Eve) to get us humans all kicked out of the Garden of Eden (the fall), but it is the action of one person again that will liberate all of humankind.
Citat 2 - Sr
Dakle, bilo je dovoljno samo jednoj osobi (Eva) da nas sve ljude izbaci iz rajskog vrta (pad), ali akcija čovjeka će ponovo osloboditi cijelo čovječanstvo.


To Nicklebleu, my recommendation, read the comment below, can help you a great deal in understanding the issue at hand as well as addressing other concerns.
The text was written to you because others do not read my texts.

You are a smart person, you have the capacity to turn into knowledge, I think I told you more.
Having a lot of information and not translating it into a form of knowledge puts you in a situation where you are not sufficiently aware of the facts.

Which is why I said you were a smart person, here's why, bolded in a copy of a quote from your text.

"The concept of the 'original sin' has never really made a lot of sense to me. What's wrong with knowledge? And if it was a 'forbidden fruit', why the hell did God (omnipotent, omniscient) put the damn tree in the Garden of Eden in the first place? ,,

Not only is the concept of original sin not meaningful, it is not true at all.
I will briefly explain where you can find the answers to these concerns.

The big difference is between Heaven and Garden of Eden or Eden, both temporally and spatially.
Paradise, a term used by humans for space and time when they were living on a high stage of development, and this is the second dimension of our universe, it is the highest dimension that can be reached by beings who have consciousness.

The reason that led to the fall from another dimension is not Eve, because she did not even exist at the time, it is a reason of a different nature, it is much more complicated to explain, where I should write a lot.
The dimensions of the Universe according to the criteria that are important for the progress of Conscious Being.

The first dimension is the zero dimension, it is the space within the Unique Field of the Universe, which can be defined as the Central Universe or the Central Universe, it is the space where God the Creator of the Universe resides.

The Central Universe is located approximately in the center of the Universe Field of the Universe.
This space is separated by a barrier from the Unique Field of the Universe, separated in all segments, it has no influence on the Unique Field of the Universe.

There is only one portal, the communication passage, through which God the Creator of the Universe monitors how the Unique Field of the Universe works.

Everything that happens in our Universe is accompanied by appropriate intelligent energies and corrects irregularities, these energies have the power of influence within the Unique Field of the Universe, they have no influence on the Central Universe, they have no access there.

The first dimension of the Universe is space. The Unique Field of the Universe, that space, that is, that dimension is made up of energies only, there is no Being who has consciousness.

Within the space of the Unique Field of the Universe, the following dimensions have been created that inhabit the beings who have the world.

The first in hierarchy is the second dimension, it is the highest above it to us the dimensions in which are living beings who have consciousness.

On another dimension, the human species existed, which is what they call in paradise paradise.
To explain the reasons why there has been a fall from the second dimension to the thirteenth dimension, which is the lower boundary of being Conscious beings, it takes a lot of writing and reasoning, you don't need it now.

Below the thirteenth dimension is the fourteenth dimension where beings who have no consciousness reside.
To repeat for the fall from another dimension Eve was not responsible because she did not exist at that time, about 10% of the planet's inhabitants are responsible for the fall, which was the critical mass that can make decisions on behalf of the entire planet.

So the story of Lucifer is totally distorted, about 10% of the planet's then inhabitants are what they call Lucifer.

Eve and the Garden of Eden, yes Eve was genetically developed in Eden, there was also Adam, the original name of the clone is "Adame".

The story of sin, and the atonement of men for this sin, is, to put it mildly, constructed in order to attach their sins, their ignorance, their laziness to God or Eve.

The Garden of Eden or Eden was the place where genetic experiments were performed.
Also in that space were the rulers of certain parts of the planet whose original origin is not from this planet.
They conducted genetic experiments in the dark space.

This is where the first clone was developed by combining the genetics of the then inhabitants of this planet and the beings who are not from this planet, it is the first genetic modification of man.

It happened after the fall from another dimension or Paradise, people after the fall from Paradise were at the lowest stage of development in the Universe, in texts treating this matter they are called receiving at a very low stage of development.

All of what I said about Eden and many more in one book, it is the highest selling book on the planet.
And of course, to clarify the type floss, Eve was thrown out of Paradise and followed by other Earth inhabitants, the joke most recounted in our Universe.

Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden of Eden or Eden, out of the fenced and well kept space on planet Earth that was very small.

What was the reason they were expelled from Eden, they were forbidden there to have sex, they were experimental models of genetics, they spoiled the job of geneticists.

As for the story of the tree of life and knowledge, it has to do with falling from another dimension it has nothing to do with Eve.

Adam and Eve were at such a stage of development that they would be before them
they put the TV in it, blazing like a calf in a colorful door.

They were not capable of using advanced knowledge.


If you want to study this issue, from a very competent source, I can open the words to a new topic somewhere.
This book, like some other books, touches on this topic, perhaps even more than the one discussed.

To be able to interpret Paul's texts correctly, you need additional knowledge in a number of fields.

He, Paul, wrote epistles for laymen, a common people where the phrase, "trust me in the word," is often used ... ... if he wrote his thoughts the way I would write it, then they would declare him insane because he wrote that way.

Paul knew that a human being cannot die, a human being is immortal.
He was not allowed to write it, so he explained it in close analogies.

Paul talked about dying or death, which is desirable for every human being, because as they progress to higher levels, he talked about the death of the physical body, not the death of the Being.

When you reach the level of death of all the bodies you have, then you have reached perfection in progress.

You have seven basic bodies plus light, which is optional, you also have a total of 49 bodies, you need to develop those seven bodies to the point where you no longer need them, to die, then you progress.

Since this is impossible to achieve in one incarnation, it is one of the reasons that you go back to incarnation to replace it.

So you need solid knowledge of the seven basic bodies that make up a human being.

Knowledge of the Light Body is also very important, it can be developed by Beings that carry the divine spark, as well as the genetically implanted embryo that is necessary for the development of the Light Body.

This embryo and this divine spark are possessed by the inhabitants of this planet and no one else.
In the event that in a Human Being, a Light Body develops from the embryo and matures during an incarnation, that being acquires status

The Light Being, these are the Beings that answer the questions in the sessions
Cassiopean experiment.

When there is a transition from this level of consciousness to a higher level of consciousness, human species from this planet, all those who move to a higher plane and those who have not crossed over and re-incarnate on a planet of the third level of consciousness, will not have this privilege to bear the divine spark, that is carry the luminescence embryo.

Comment on Your post.

All in all a very good text, certainly not all that is necessary is included here.

If you want to place this or similar text somewhere else, simply remove the parts that mention Eve from the given text, keep in mind that I am not the only one who knows the truth and knows that these are the most common manipulations.

The book deals with the problem of translation, it's commendable, I know it's hard work, this man deserves respect.
If he makes an accurate translation of the text into English, it does not mean that it is correct or that it is Paul's original text.

This problem is not the fault of the person who corrects the translations.

You can determine the approximate accuracy with additional knowledge.
For one example, God never asks or asks people to serve Him or to serve me.

Any text in which this is written is a forgery.

Another example where he says, "God created man in his own image and likeness," this has nothing to do with the creator of the universe in quotation marks.

The first sentence in the Bible, "God created heaven and earth in the beginning," and the original Hebrew text read, "In the beginning God created heaven and earth,"

They are the word Elohim, which means the plural translated as the singular.

There are many examples where you can find counterfeit texts in other ways.

Paul was a very learned man, he had an imposing knowledge that he, Paul, wrote such nonsense, slim chances.



,,Nicklebleu,, moja preporuka, pročitaj komentar koji slijedi, može ti puno pomći u razumijevanju date problematike, kao i rješavanju drugih nedoumica.
Tekst je napisan tebi, jer drugi ne čitaju moje tekstove.

Ti si pametna osoba, imaš kapacitet koji treba da pretvoriš u znanje, mislim da sam ti to veće rekao.
Ako raspolažeš sa puno informacija a nisi ih prevela u formu znanja, to te dovodi u situaciju da nisi dovoljno potkovana činjenicama.

Zbog čega sam rekao da si pametna osoba, evo zbog čega, boldovano u kopiji citata tvog teksta.

,,The concept of the ‘original sin’ never really made a lot of sense to me. What’s wrong with knowledge? And if it was a ‘forbidden fruit’, why the hell did God (omnipotent, omniscient) put the damn tree in the Garden of Eden in the first place?,,

NIje samo da koncept izvornog grijeha nema smisla, već on nije uopšte tačan.

Ja ću ukratko da objesnim gdje možeš naći odgovore na te nedoumice.

Velika razlika je između Raja i rajskog vrta ili Edena i vremenski i prostorno.

Raj, termin koji ljudi koriste za prostor i vrijeme kada su živjeli na visokom stepenu razvoja a to je druga dimenzija našeg Univerzuma, to je najviša dimenzija koju mogu da dostignu Bića koja imaju svijest.

Razlog koji je doveo do pada iz druge dimenzije nije Eva, jer ona tada nije ni postojala, razlog je druge prirode, to je puno komplikovano da se objasni, gdje bi trebalo puno da pišem.

Dimenzije Univerzuma prema kriterijima koji su vazni za napredak Bića koja imaju svijest.

Prva dimenzija je nulta dimenzija, to je prostor u okviru Jedinstvenog Polja Univerzuma, koji može da se definiše kao Centralni Svemir ili Centralni Univerzum, to je prostor gdje boravi Bog Kreator Univerzuma.
Centralni Univerzum se nalazi približno u centru Jedinstvenog Polja Univerzuma.

Taj prostor je odvojen barijerom od Jedinstvenog Polja Univerzuma, odvojen u svim segmentima, on nema nikakav uticaj na Jedinstveno Polje Univerzuma.
Postoji samo jedan portal, komunikacioni prolaz, preko kojeg Bog Kreator Univerzuma prati kako funkcioniše Jedinstveno Polje Univerzuma.

Sve što se dešava u našem Univerzumu prate odgovarajuće inteligentne energije i koriguju nepravilnosti, te energije imaju moć uticaja u okviru Jedinstvenog Polja Univerzuma, one nemaju uticaja na Centralni Univerzum, tamo nemaju pristupa.

Prva dimenzija Univerzuma je prostor Jedinstveno Polje Univerzuma, taj prostor, odnosno tu dimenziju sačinjavaju isključivo energije, tu nema Bića koja imaju svijest.

U okviru prostora Jedinstveno Polje Univerzuma, kreirane su sljedeće dimenzije koje nastanjuju Bića koja imaju svijet.

Prva u hijerahiji je druga dimezija, ona je najviša iznad nje nama dimenzija u kojima žive Bića koja imaju svijest.
Na drugoj dimenziji je egzistirala ljudska vrsta, to je ono što u žargonu nazivaju Raj.

Da objašnjavam razloge zbog čega je došlo do pada iz druge dimenzije u trinaestu dimenziju, koja je donja granica gdje borave Bića koja imaju svijest, treba puno pisanja i obrazlaganja, to Ti sada ne treba.
Ispod trinaeste dimenzije je četrnaesta dimenzija gdje borave Bića koja nemaju svijest.

Da ponovim za pad iz druge dimenzije nije odgovorna Eva jer tada ona nije postojala, za pad su odgovorni stanovnici planete, njih oko 10%, što je bila kritčna masa koja može da donosi odluke u ime cijele planete.
Znači priča o Luciferu je totalno iskrivljena, oko 10% tadašnjih stanovnika planete su ono što nazivaju Lucifer.

Eva i rajski vrt, da Eva je genetski razvijena u Edenu, tu je bio i Adam, originalno ime klona je ,,Adama,, .

Priča o grijehu, i ispaštanju ljudi zbog tog grijeha je blago rečeno iskonstruisana da bi svoje grijehe, svoje neznanje, svoju ljenost prikačili Bogu ili Evi.

Rajski vrt ili Eden je bio prostor gdje su vršeni genetski ekspreimenti.

Takođe u tom prostoru su baravili vladari određenih dijelova planete čije izvorno porijeklo nije sa ove planente.
Oni su u trom prostoru vršili genetske eksperimente.

Tu je razvijen prvi klon spojem genetike tadašnjeg stanovnika ove planete i Bića koja nisu sa ove planete, to je prva genetska modifikacija čovjeka.

To se desilo nakon pada iz druge dimenzije ili Raja , ljudi nakon pada iz Raja su bili na najnižem stepenu razvoja u Univerzumu, u tekstovima koji obrađuju tu materiju ih nazivaju primati na veoma niskom stepenu razvoja.
Sve ovo što sam rekao vezano za Eden i još puno toga piše u jednoj knjizi, ona je najviše prodavana knjiga na planeti.

I svakako da pojasnim floskulu tipa, Eva je izbačena iz Raja te za njom i ostali stanovnici Zemlje, vic koji je najviše prepričavan u našem Univerzumu.
Adam i Eva su izbačeni iz Rajskog vrta ili Edena, napolje iz ograđenog i dobro čuvanog prostora na planeti Zemlji koji je bio veoma mali.

Šta je bio razlog da su izbačeni iz Edena, tamo je bilo zabranjeno da se bave seksom, oni su bili eksperimentalni modeli genetike, pokvarili su posao genetičara.

Što se tiče priče o drvetu života i znanju, to je vezano za pad iz druge dimenzije to nema veze sa Evom.

Adam i Eva su bili na takvom stepenu razvoja, da bi kad bi pred njih
stavili televizor u njega blejili kao tele u šarena vrata.

Oni nisu bili sposobni da koriste napredna znanja.

Ako želiš da proučiš datu problematiku, iz veoma kompetentnog izvora, reci mogu da otvorim negdje novu temu.

Ta knjiga kao i neke druge knjige dotiču i ovu temu, možda čak i više od date knjige koja je predmet rasprave.

Da bi mogli da validno tumačite tekstove koje je napisao Pavle treba Vam dodatno znanje iz određenog broja oblasti.

On, Pavle, je pisao poslanice za laike, obični narod gdje se često koristi fraza ,,vjerujte mi na riječ,,...u slučaju da je pisao svoje misli na način kako bi ja to napisao, tada bi ga proglasili ludim, zbog toga je tako pisao.

Pavle je znao da ljudsko Biće ne može da umre, ljudsko Biće je besmrtno.

On to nije smio da napiše, pa je to objašnjavao u približnim analogijama.

Pavle je pričao o umiranju ili smrti, što je za svako ljudsko Biće poželjno, jer time napreduju prema višim nivoima, on je pričao o smrti fizičkog tijela a ne o smrti Bića.

Kada dostignete nivo da Vam umru sva tijela koja imate, tada ste dostigli savršenstvo u napretku.

Imate sedam osnovnih tijela plus svjetlosno, koje nije obavezno, takođe imate ukupno 49 tijela, tih sedam tijela treba da razvijete do te granice da vam nisu više potrebna, da umru, tada napredujete.

Pošto je to nemoguće postići u jednoj inkarnaciji, to je jedan od razloga što se vraćate u ponovnu inkarnaciju, da to nadomjestite.

Znači treba Ti solidno znanje o sedam osnovnih tijela koja čine ljudsko Biće.

Takođe je veoma važno znanje o Svjetlosnom tijelu, njega mogu da razviju Bića koja u sebi nose božansku iskru, kao i genetski usađen embrion koji je neophodan za razvoj Svjetlosnog tijela.
Taj embrion i tu božansku iskru imaju ljudi stanovnici ove planete i niko više.

U slučaju da se kod ljudskog Bića, iz embriona razvije Svjetlosno tijelo i da sazrije u toku jedne inkarnacije, to biće stiče status Svjetlosnog Bića, to su Bića koja odgovaraju na pitanja u sesijama
Kasiopejski eksperiment.

Kad prođe tranzicija iz ovog nivoa svijesti u viši nivo svijesti, ljudske vrsta sa ove planete, svi oni koji pređu u viši nivo i oni koji nisu prešli te se ponovo inkarniraju na planetu trećeg nivoa svijesti, neće imati tu privilegiju da nose božansku iskru odnosno da nose embrion Svijetlećeg tijela.

Komentar na Tvoj post.

Sve skupa veoma dobar tekst, svakako da tu nije obuhvaćeno sve ono što je neophodno.

Ako želiš da taj ili sličan tekst postaviš na neko drugo mjesto, jednostavno iz datog teksata ukloni one dijelove koji pominju Evu, imaj na umu da ja nisam jedini koji zna istinu i koji zna da su to najobičnije manipulacije.

Knjiga se bavi problemom prevoda, to je za pohvalu, znam da je to težak posao, taj čovjek zaslužuje respekt.
Ako on napravi tačan prevod teksta na engleski jezik, to ne znači da je on tačan ili da je originalan Pavlov tekst.
Za taj problem nije kriv čovjek koji koriguje prevode.

Približnu tačnost možeš da odrediš dodatnim znanjem.

Jedan primjer, Bog nikada ne traži niti je tražio od ljudi da mu služe ili da mi budu sluge.
Svaki tekst u kojem to piše je falsifikat.

Drugi primjer gdje kaže ,,Bog je stvorio čovjeka po svojoj slici i prilici,,, ovo u navodnicima nema veze sa Bogom kreatorom Univerzuma.

Prva rečenica u Bibliji ,, U početku stvori Bog nebo i zemlju,, , a u originalnom tekstu na starohebrejskom jeziku stoji ,, U početku Bogovi stvoriše nebo i zemlju,,

Oni su riječ ,,Elohim,, koja označava množinu preveli kao jedninu.

Ima puno primjera gdje možeš na druge načine naći krivotvorene tekstove.

Pavle je bio veoma učen čovjek, imao je impozantno znanje, da on, Pavle, piše takve gluposti, male šanse.


Curious Beagle

The Force is Strong With This One
Just symbolism no actual tree of knowledge. The temptation when you imagine that you may possess great power. You may know that to use this power in a certain way might prove to be dangerous for you, yet as long as this power is not exploited, you may feel a curiosity concerning what would actually happen if you did use it. This temptation becomes stronger and stronger. The stronger it becomes, the less you can think of the means to counteract this temptation. You will not even have the intention of continuing the use of this dangerous power, but you feel you must try it out a little bit, just to see. All the theoretical knowledge you may possess, that having once tried it you may not find it possible anymore to resist being swept away by it, dissolves under the growing weight of the temptation. Once the first spirit succumbed to the temptation, it set something in motion that could not be changed any more. This spirit once knew that this would be so, but did not wish to remember after he had succumbed. The result was not an immediate change, but a gradual one. The change from harmony to disharmony took place just as gradually and as slowly as your personal change occurs from disharmony to harmony.
After this one time, you cannot escape any more, for you are caught. The same principle holds true to everything opposing divine law.

This one spirit who succumbed first generated a power running in the opposite direction to divine law, but it was still the same power, only used differently. With this power the spirit could affect and influence many other spirits, little by little. But not all spirits were affected. There was a division between those who succumbed and those who did not. With the former, the “fall of the angels” began. In this process, every divine aspect turned into its opposite nature: harmony turned to disharmony, beauty to ugliness, light to darkness, wisdom to blindness, love to hatred, fear, or egotism, and union became separateness. Then wholeness split even further the more this pull of temptation proceeded. Thus evil came into existence.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I’ve only finished the first two chapters of this book. It took me a very long time to finish them, because it made me think a lot about many things, like 10 pages would take me well over 3 hours (as I would start thinking, go online and look in other books searching for things), and kind of sent me off on a wild goose chase in terms of the information below.

After at least briefly looking at a good portion of what Laura has written about Paul and the subject on the forum, I’m hesitant to even propose the ideas I do below, since I lack so much knowledge and perspective on the subject, but figure if it is treated as speculation that could be well off into lala land, then at worst it is some wrong thinking and connecting of things. Also, I really need to read SHOTW again because it seemed any time I used the glossary to find key words, such as Fulcanelli, and read what was written the more connections and ideas I had.

This line of inquiry started with looking into Moses and Kantek that I posted about. I noted that the C’s mention they were in contact with Moses. The New History of Mankind: Who Are we? What are we? How did we get here?

I was also following this Paul thread and may have just started reading this book, so some of the words such as ‘Spirit’ and ‘faith’ relating to what the author was saying about Paul and what he interpreted Paul as saying were on my mind.

When looking for all the information and C’s sessions about Moses, etc, I also read this:

7 Oct 1994 said:
Q: (L)Who did Paul encounter on the road to Damascus.

A: Spirit of the 6th density.
And this from the same session at the beginning of the session:

7 Oct 1994 said:
Q: (L) Regarding the "Fall" in Eden and the loss of the Edenic state, how long ago did that happen?

A: 309000 years ago approx.

Q: (L) What was the situation... what happened... what was the state of mankind?

A: Loss of faith caused knowledge and physical restrictions by outside forces.

Q: (L) What did the snake or the "tempter" represent?

A: Forces known to you as Lizzies; we have already taught you this.

Q: (L) I am just checking!

A: Faith dear.

Q: (L) I'm having faith, I'm just checking.

A: Suit yourself.
So that got my antenna up in terms of thinking about stuff the author was saying when I started reading the main body of this book on Paul. And as I was reading, the idea formed that Paul was communicating with 6D STO/C’s and that is where his inspiration came from in terms of what he was saying in his letters.

I also had in the back of my mind some information Laura had posted and I later searched for and found such as:

I'm inclined to think that Paul not only did hard research - he must have carried his library of texts with him wherever he went, or he had a stable base for much of the time - but also had some sorts of ecstatic experiences. Unlike some of the so-called experts, I do think that Paul wrote I Corinthians 13 and it is one of the greatest pieces of literature of our civilization. It perfectly and totally encapsulates his "vision".

But Paul also wasn't having any nonsense by people who claimed to have visions and those visions produced material that was clearly nonsense. That's why he was talking about "not going beyond what is written". He was able to extract every bit of his theology, christology and ecclesiology, from the texts though he certainly handled them very freely at times!

-> Paul’s vision “14 years ago”? 3rd heaven and all that? When was this in his timeline? Do we assume it was his initial conversion? If so…:

29 AD – Conversion in 15th year of Tiberius (10 years after execution of Judas)

Gal 1:15-17 But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with any human being, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were already apostles before me, but I went away at once into Arabia, and afterwards I returned to Damascus.


43 AD – “14 years ago” vision = conversion experience?

2Co 12:2-4 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows-- was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
Before I get into looking at ‘Paul’s Necessary Sin’ and other things, I want to write about something else I came across that made me think.

I was reading a book on blockchain and it happened to mention Caesar’s cipher. I had never heard of it, so looked it up.

Evidence exists that Julius Caesar also used more complicated systems,[6] and one writer, Aulus Gellius, refers to a (now lost) treatise on his ciphers:

There is even a rather ingeniously written treatise by the grammarian Probus concerning the secret meaning of letters in the composition of [bCaesar's epistles[/b].

— Aulus Gellius, Attic Nights 17.9.1–5
The only time I had seen the word epistles used was in relation to the bible. I guess that is what they called letters back then from what I can determine. But it did make me think about how much Caesar may have written in private and how much he may have written for the public. I figure it must have been substantial, except very little has survived to today.

Caesar's collection of literary works is thought to have been vast, but most of it has long been lost or destroyed. Consequently, Caesar's literary side remains little understood.
Even if there was purging and the destroying of Caesar’s writing for political reasons, one might assume a substantial amount of the writing would have survived in some places for some time. From what I can determine this is the Probus mentioned in the quote about Caesar’s epistles.

Marcus Valerius Probus, also known as M. Valerius Probus Berytius or Probus the Berytian[1] (c. 20/30 – 105 AD), was a Roman grammarian and critic, who flourished during Nero's reign.
If this is the case and Probus was alive until 105 AD, then it seems if a lot of Caesar’s writings were available enough for grammarians to write treatise on it, it is also likely it could be available to Paul and the church he visited in Rome mentioned in this session:

Q: (L) That leads to the big problem here. There was a church in Rome. It was supposed to be a Christian church in Rome before Paul ever went to Rome. He wrote the Book of Romans to this church. Was this a Jewish church?

A: No

Q: (L) So this was not a Christian church in the sense of Jewish people, a Jewish synagogue, who were aware of their Jewish messiah and worshipping their Jewish messiah?

A: No

Q: (L) Was it, in fact, a Gentile church that was worshipping at least something along the line of Caesar?

A: Yes

Q: (L) This would have been at least two generations after the assassination of Caesar, so a lot of things can happen in two generations.

A: Yes

Q: (L) When Paul went to Rome, because this is the funny thing... Everything seems to emanate from Rome even if the Book of Acts claims that everything emanated from Jerusalem. It's almost as though...

A: When "Acts" claims, assume the opposite.

Q: (L) Okay. There's some kind of controlling thing emanating from Rome. What happened when Paul arrived in Rome? Was he taken to Rome as a prisoner from Jerusalem?

A: He never went to Jerusalem the third time.

Q: (L) He never went to Jerusalem the third time, but he went to Rome. And when he went to Rome, how was he received by the church there?

A: Warmly.

Q: (L) Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It seems to be that that's where all of the corruptions of the worship of Caesar and the corruption of the Jewish Jesus emanated from.

A: Remember that all that happened after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Q: (L) So, we don't really know what was going on. Oh, okay. I have a theory that Paul went to Rome much earlier than others think. That would make sense, because if the real Jesus was not somebody who died in 29 or 30, but was instead somebody who died in 4 BC or whatever, then everything has to be put back. So did Paul go to Rome in 48 or 49?

A: Yes
So one wonders what was in Caesar’s writing exactly and did he ever address his writings directly to the people. If so, what did he say? We may never know from information available to us, but could ask the C’s or even contact Caesar, like in a previous session and ask him.

That being the case, I thought of this session quote about Caesar and Posidonius, who was written about at the end of ‘Comets and the Horns of Moses’ and I also think the first part from the session is relevant:

(Pierre) Did he exaggerate the number of casualties to impress the people in Rome?

A: Not only! Others added to this later to increase the horror factor. Notice that his closest friend was a Gaul from Spain. Also notice the extraordinary honor in which he was held in Gaul for centuries after his death. Also notice the very fact that the legend of a great soul come down to earth!

Q: (L) What was the last sentence? [Review of answer and wonky last sentence] Was that last sentence incomplete?

A: Yes ...formed around him within days of his death!!


Q: (Atriedes) Was Caesar really kidnapped by Cilician pirates?

A: No.

Q: (Atriedes) So then did he actually crucify any pirates?

A: No.

Q: (Pierre) Is the Cilician pirate story a transformation of something real that happened?

A: Caesar was on another kind of adventure of the scientific kind.

Q: (Pierre) Can you elaborate on this "scientific kind" of adventure?

A: Short travels with his teacher, Posidonius.
So according the C’s there is a connection to Caesar and the Stoics.

And Caesar also connects to information from ‘Secret History of the World’ and the book ‘Where Troy Once Stood’ about ‘Egypt’:

SHOTW pg 78 said:
{talking about Mourvieff} Among these errors, he includes the idea that this Tradition passed from Egypt to Judaea and thus to Christianity – at least not Egypt as we understand it today. What is clear is that the True Tradition of the Eleusinian mysteries is behind Christianity, (…)

One of the principal historians of the Roman era, Julius Caesar, tells us that the Celts were ruled by the Druids. The druids "held all knowledge." The Druids were charged with ALL intellectual activities, and were not restricted to religion, per se, which suggests to us that "religion" and "knowledge" were combined in a more or less scientific way, and were considered essential to one another - symbiotic.

It is later writers who began to vilify the Celts by accusing them of the usual things that people get accused of when someone wants to demonize them: human sacrifice, homosexuality, and so on. Most of that nonsense goes back to Posidonius, who has been quoted as an "authority" by every other "authority" on the Celts since. Unfortunately, when one checks Posidonius carefully, one finds that he really didn't have a clue and was probably making that stuff up to fulfill an agenda. He did, however, tell us something important about the Celts that supports the idea that a Celtic Egypt must have been the source of the great mysteries of the ancient world: the Druid belief in reincarnation. Posidonius is quoted by Diodorus:

"Druids believe that the souls of men are immortal, and that after a definite number of years they live a second life when the soul passes to another body."
Julius Caesar also wrote:

"The cardinal doctrine which they seek to teach is that souls do not die, but after death, pass from one to another; and this belief, as the fear of death is thereby cast aside, they hold to be the greatest invective to valour."
The Celts believed in a world of the spirit, the immortality of the soul. That's a vastly different philosophy than the one exposed in the texts of the Asiatic Jews which, as Garbini points out, "denies survival of the human spirit."
Given that Caesar conquered Gaul and would have wanted to know as much as he could about his enemies and friends in Gaul and the druids and was, according to the C’s, held in very high regard in Gaul, he likely had much more information about the druids and what they knew and believed than what can be found in ‘Gallic Wars.’

I also often forget that Caesar also occupied the highest position in terms of Roman religion. And this connects to what Laura wrote about in SHOTW about Varro and Sibyls and so connects to Fulcanelli.

Gaius Julius Caesar, the future dictator, was chosen at the instigation of Cinna, his father-in-law, at the end of 87, or before 13 January 86 BC, while Marius was still alive.[36] Many scholars have however debated the possibility that Caesar was never formally appointed, because of religious technicalities (his mother Aurelia was plebeian). Caesar nonetheless lost his priesthood during the dictatorship of Sulla, in about 81, but was still allowed to retain his seat in the College of Pontiffs. No Flamen Dialis was appointed thereafter in order to let him keep his seat; this peculiarity then remained in place for about 70 years.
SHOWT pg 645 said:
Varro, in his Antiquitates rerum humanorum, recalls the legend of Aeneas saving his father and his household gods from the flames of Troy and, after long wanderings, arriving at the fields of Laurentum, the goal of his journey. [...] “Laurente (Laurentium) is cabalistically l’or enté (grafted gold)”.
I will let this passage along with the other clues I have revealed stand here for the reader to contemplate Auch Cathedral as THE Cathedral of the Mysteries of Fulcanelli.

This brings us back to the subject of the Sibyls. (Fulcanelli warned his readers that having a good classical education was essential to read his subtextual meaning.) As already noted, the Cumaean sibyl was made famous by Virgil to foretell the birth of a saviour and as Aeneas’ guide to the underworld. As we continue to read chapter seven, we see that Fulcanelli is discussing this very matter and we note again his particular reference to Varro.

The best known and most quoted catalogue of the sibyls (although the original is lost) is that of the Roman scholar cited by Fulcanelli, Varro (116-27 B.C.) whose ten named sibyls are known from the Divinae Institutiones written by Lactantius (ca. 250 – after 317). It was the first book printed in Italy (Subaico, 1465). The Sibyl remained for the Christians who were, at heart, still attached to their pagan roots, a direct witness to the gesta Dei, or signs of God.

In the Hellenistic period Jewish forgeries appearing in Alexandria were passed off as Sibylline oracles and used as propaganda. Supposedly genuine Sibylline oracles located in the temple of Capitoline Jupiter in Rome, were extant in Rome until the end of the empire. The collection we know now is a rather chaotic compilation called the Oracula Sibyllina and is full of religious propaganda and apocalyptic predictions. The Greek text was recovered from antiquity and published in 1545 in Basel.

The Sibyls were popular figures in medieval and Renaissance art, the most famous occurrence being Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel. We are reminded that Raymond Montane compares the work at Auch with the work of Michelangelo. The subject of sibyls disappeared almost entirely in Christian art after the Council of Trent concluded in 1563. The dedication of Auch Cathedral took place on February 12th, 1548, at which time the 18 windows of Arnaud de Moles and the 113 stalls in the choir were completed and which feature the Sibyls prominently. So, the fact that these Sibyls appear there at all is an oddity in itself.
So you have a possible Caesar connection to the Stoics (according to the C’s), also Caesar a leader in Roman religion when Varro was possibly writing about Sibyls mentioned by Fulcanelli and also the connection to ‘Egypt’ via Gaul. One wonders what exactly he might have been as an individual in terms of religion and spirituality, besides being extraordinary, and what he might have written to individuals, groups of people and even to all the people of Rome. And that these writings could have been in the possession of the church in Rome and available to Paul when he was there.



The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Some thoughts on the first two chapters of Paul’s Necessary Sin.

This is ultimate what I worked out when remembering the C’s quotes at the beginning of this post in terms of ‘faith’ and ‘spirit of the 6th Density’ when looking at some of Paul’s quotes with the authors ideas and some ideas I came up with.

My ideas – when Paul talks about “righteousness” or “absolved,” he is talking about trying to act in an STO fashion (Note, as we have seen from all the discussions on the forum over the years, “doing what is right” is nuanced and what action to take is based on many factors involved with any given situation and people involved). When Paul talks about “sin” and being a “sinner”, he is talking about being STS. When he talks about being “unrighteous” he is saying those whose actions are serve self (STS). When he talks about “God” he is talking about 6D STO. When he is talking about “kingdom of God” he is talking about being in 4D as STO. “Christ Jesus” is Caesar. “justified” or “to be justified” meaning being an STO candidate. “glory of God” possibly meaning being STO and “by his grace” possibly meaning communication with 6D STO. “Gift” meaning - Seer - The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers - "shepherd's crook" (see further thoughts on this below in terms of connections to Fulcanelli and the ‘Gift of God’.)

Quotes of Paul applying this:

Pg 5 – “the righteousness {trying to act in an STO fashion} from God {6D STO} based on faith.

“the state/manner of existing which subsists in the way of doing what is right {trying to act in an STO fashion} from God {6D STO} based on faith.

Pg 6 – “For there is no distinction; since all have sinned {are STS} and fall short of the glory of God {being STO} they are justified {an STO candidate} by his grace {communication with 6D STO} as a gift {Seer - The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers - "shepherd's crook"}, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus {Caesar}…”

“…since all have sinned {are STS} and fall short of the glory of God {6D STO}, they are given a state/manner of existing which subsists in the way of doing what is right by his grace {communication with 6D STO} as a gift {Seer - The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers - "shepherd's crook"}…”

(c) the ‘state/manner of existing which subsists in the way of doing what is right’ {trying to act in an STO fashion} based on faith is from God {6D STO} and there is a possibility of succeeding in doing what is right by faith that is not available through the law;

(d) ‘to be justified’ {STO candidate} (dikaioō ), as used by Paul, can be understood as ‘to be given the state/manner of existing which subsists in the way of doing what is right {trying to act in an STO fashion} by faith’.

Pg 7 – “Do you not know that the unrighteous {those that don’t have ‘a state/manner of existing which subsists in a way of doing what is right’ / those whose actions are to serve self (STS)} will not inherit the kingdom of God {being in 4D as STO }?… And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified (given the state/manner of existing which subsists in the way of doing what is right by faith) {STO candidate} in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ {Caesar} and in the Spirit of our God {6D STO}.”

I’ll just give one more example, but maybe it is possible to ‘translate’ Paul in this way by using what the author has come up with and then also using terminology we are familiar with, such as my ideas. I’m not sure if my take on “absolved” really captures it, though.

Pg 11 … Since all have sinned {are STS} and fall short of the glory of God {being STO}, they are absolved {trying to act in a way in service to others (STO) from a previous state of STS} by his grace {communication with 6D STO} as a gift {Seer - The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers - "shepherd's crook"}, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus {Caesar}, whom God {6D STO} put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s {6D STO} righteousness {trying to act in an STO fashion} because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins {acting as STS}; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous {trying to act in an STO fashion} and that he absolves {trying to act in a way in service to others (STO) from a previous state of STS} him who has faith in Jesus {Caesar}. (Rom 3:23–26, adapted RSV)

I was listening to a Sarah Westall and the psychic Michelle Whitedove interview and Whitedove happened to mention that something like 2% of people have psychic abilities and mentioned that the CIA studied it and had come up with this number. I couldn’t find information online to verify this, but it did get me thinking about there being some portion of the population that is psychic in relation to information in this Paul book.

The specific thing that caught my eyes in relation to this is the author’s discussion about Paul’s prophets and speaking in tongues, etc and what it might mean.

Paul’s Necessary Sin pg 18-19 said:
In modern usage the verb ‘to prophesy’ usually means ‘to foretell the future’ but that is not its full sense; even in contemporary English it carries the richer sense of ‘to speak by divine inspiration’ (SOED). Although the Hebrew prophets were often concerned with the future, their essential task was to speak for God.


Ezekiel retells God’s call in similar terms:

Mortal, go to the house of Israel, and speak my very words to them. (Ezek 3:4)
With this richer understanding of prophecy, the sense of the words of Joel is not that in the last days all shall predict the future but rather that, in those days, God will speak in and through all God’s sons and daughters.


Paul describes the former life of the community when they ‘were enticed and led astray to idols that could not speak’ (12:2) and immediately follows this with a point about discerning when someone is ‘speaking by the Spirit of God’ (12:3). The main concern of the passage is about discernment but the object of that discernment is how the living word of God is heard and recognized in the community. That God is speaking in the community through its members in contrastto the dumb idols of the past is the unquestioned assumption of the whole passage .

It will be the argument of this chapter that Paul considers that clear direction for action comparable to the directions given by law comes through the prophetic word – God’s word given directly – sounding in the community.


In Paul’s discussion of prophecy and speaking in tongues he discusses the relative value of these two spiritual gifts to the community:

For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church. Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. (1 Cor 14:2–5)
Prophecy, Paul says, is of clear and practical benefit; it builds up the church, giving encouragement and consolation. Further very clear evidence of the presence of prophecy in the community comes as Paul gives instruction about the way things are to be done when the community are gathered:

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, let the first person be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged. And the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets… (1 Cor 14:29–32)
When the community gathers, listening to the prophetic word is central and Paul is ensuring that this word is heard and that all may benefit. Paul is giving instructions on how to hear it in an orderly way and also, briefly, on the right way to test that the word that is heard is truly the word of God:

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.… [T]he spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets… (1 Cor 14:29, 32)
Again, the fact that there are prophets speaking the word of God and that this is a central part of the life of the community are realities that Paul can assume in what he says.
So Paul is advocating for communities to receive ‘divine inspiration’ through prophets and maybe the prophets are those able to communicate with 6D STO, such as the C’s experiment, or are people that are interested, thinking about, researching, networking about and trying to live what is given when someone has ‘divine inspiration,’ such as this forum. And those with psychic abilities and also working on themselves are the most likely to be prophets, even if they are not in direct connection with 6D STO. Maybe someone that also might be considered a prophet are those seeking truth and that talk to spirits, such as William Stanton Moses (see link), and those that may be considered to be speaking in tongues are channelers or psychics of varying degrees who may be in contact with some kind of semi-valid source.

Another point made by Paul and explained by the author is that what is ‘received’ from the prophets and ‘divine inspiration’ should be networked about and thought about in terms of what this inspiration is saying to the community. It isn’t just to be believed. And this networking and all related activities with respect to the ‘divine inspiration’ is what builds up the community and church. It seems to me this is similar to the C’s as the ‘divine inspiration’ and Laura and her work and those closest to her and even this forum as the wider network and associated activities as being the community or church.

This forum and everything associated with it could be looked at as a Christian community and church in the Pauline sense.

Another thought I had related to the community or church receiving ‘divine inspiration’ is that this takes the place of the power structure of the King and priests as the authority and the people needing them for this role.

SHOTW said:
The idea of the ritual sacrifice of the king instead of thousands of virgins, children, or warriors, seems to be the result of the mingling of the Southern Sun god worship with the influence of the Northern Moon worshippers. This seems to be a distortion of the idea that the king was ruler by virtue of his “marriage” to the goddess, or her representative, and that this “marriage” involved a shamanic death in order to be able to transduce the cosmic energies of benevolence and prosperity to the tribe or to defend the tribe against evil spirits.

The northern custom of a king who had lost his vigor voluntarily abdicating and being replaced by the “right heir” who could “marry the goddess” was mixed with the sacrifice customs, and the result was that the priesthood had a weapon to wield over the monarch to keep him in line. Thus arose the idea of the “scape goat” king who was sacrificed in the labyrinth instead of maidens and warriors.
I couldn’t find on the forum or elsewhere where Laura discusses this subject in more detail, but I think I remember it being discussed in depth.

This quote brings up the thought that a community with a direct connection to ‘God’/6D STO - the ‘grace of God’ or ‘word of God’ given as a ‘gift,’ such as what possibly took place in the Pauline communities via Paul, would not need a King or priests or a central authority to give them what God was saying or control what God was saying. The Pauline community with a direct line to ‘God’/6D STO could be seen as a direct threat to those in power. Maybe that is why early Christians (Pauline Christians) were taken out or suppressed by Roman authority and subsequently later by the centralized Christian church (Cathars, Inquisition and witch hunts that Laura has written about). See SHOTW quote pg 146-149 for information on Laura’s research on the early Christians. And – Witches, Comets and Planetary Cataclysms --

So the centralized powers, such as a government or ruler and the centralized church, would be against the people having access directly to God, instead of the dictates passed down to them from above. It would threaten their power to control people via religion or spirituality. Seems like those in power in the church were taking out all the people with psychic abilities and groups who possibly had a direct connection to God, because it contradicted and undermined those in power and their control.



The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Now, back to what I ‘translated’ Paul as meaning in the above quotes of Paul in relation to “by his (God’s) grace as a gift” and why I connected this with Fulcanelli.

“glory of God {being STO} they are justified by his grace {communication with 6D STO} as a gift {Seer - The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers - "shepherd's crook"}.
Here are two quotes about the ‘Gift of God’ from SHOTW from the works of Fulcanelli that I connected to Paul’s “by his (God’s) grace as a gift”:

SHOTW pg 623 said:
As I continued to marvel at Auch Cathedral, I began to realize fully, for the first time, that the Cassiopaean Transmissions was just such an “appearance of the adepts”, It finally began to dawn on me that the process I had followed, instinctively, had been quite accurately described by Eugene Canseliet in his Preface to the second edition of Fulcanelli’s The Dwellings of the Philosophers:

According to the meaning of the Latin word adeptus, the alchemist has then received the Gift of God, or even better, the Present, a cabalistic pun on the double meaning of the word, underlining that he thus enjoys the infinite duration of the Now.[...]

In the Kingdom of Sulpur (cabalistically: Soul Fire) there exists a Mirror in which the entire World can be seen. Whosoever looks into this Mirror can see and learn the three parts of Wisdom of the entire World.
SHOTW pg 631 said:
In his introduction to the Second Edition, Canseliet tells us that Basil Valentine was Fulcanelli’s initiator - and makes the point of distinction between “first initiator”, and “true initiator”. That could certainly indicate the difference between a “human” teacher” and a “hyperdimensional” teacher. He then discusses a letter that was left by Fulcanelli after he “died”, and which he says was obviously received by Fulcanelli’s master from some unknown individual, and which Canseliet said was the “written proof of the triumph of his true initiator”, which provides a “powerful and correct idea of the sublime level at which the Great Work takes place”. This letter has a number of remarkable references which suggest to me that it may not be a letter to Fulcanelli’s master, but was to Fulcanelli himself, and may have referred to his attempts to communicate with Basil Valentine directly via techniques learned from Kardec via Flammarion. The references that suggest this to me are:

This time you have really had the Gift of God; it is a great blessing and, for the first time, I understand how rare this favour is.[…]

When my wife told me the good news… I was only briefly informed about the matter…[…]

You have extended generosity to the point of associating us with this high and occult knowledge, to which you have full right and which is entirely personal to you. […]

My wife, with the inexplicable intuition of sensitives… One can almost say that he, who has greeted the morning star, has forever lost the use of his sight and his reason, because he is fascinated by this false light and cast into the abyss… Unless, as in your case, a great stroke of fate comes to pull him unexpectedly from the edge of the precipice.
Nickleblue’s post quote mentioning “First installment” also made me make another possible connection.

So ‘living in Faith’ means to know (or rather hear, as in hearing what God says) what is right and consequently how to act rightly. And this happens through direct knowledge of God’s will (it is kind of like we become the instrument through which God speaks - we are ‘possesed’ by or ‘slaves’ of God). And by ‘living in Faith’ we get ‘liberated’. However, this liberation is only partial (the gift has been given ‘in part’ or as a ‘first installment’). To illustrate this point Paul uses the image of a seed, that may grow into a plant at a future date. We only inherit this liberation in potential (wheras Paul and the apostles got the full deal).
pg 139-140 said:
In order to relay this concept of ‘earnest’ for a modern readership, the NRSV has translated the word in two different ways: ‘first instalment’ and ‘guarantee’. It can be seen that these accurately pick up on the figurative sense of ‘earnest’ defined above, ‘an instalment of what is to come’ or ‘a pledge of what is to come for the purpose of binding an agreement’. These are well chosen words to replace ‘earnest’ and do not give a problem. Distortion of Paul’s Greek comes because of the way a particular interpretation of his meaning shapes the way that these new translations are used and completely obscures the meaning proposed in this section.

The NRSV interpretation, reflecting the almost universal view of scholars on this matter, is that when Paul speaks of ‘the earnest of the Spirit’, this ‘first instalment’ or ‘guarantee’, he is referring to the gift of the Spirit that Christians have now received, the existence of which is the ‘first instalment’ of the coming of the Spirit to all humankind, indeed, to the whole of creation in the future. That Christians have the fullness of the Spirit now is a ‘guarantee’ of its future outpouring on others. So the NRSV does not simply replace the AV reading that God gives ‘the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts’ with ‘the first instalment of the Spirit in our hearts’ but rather God gives us ‘his Spirit in our hearts as a first instalment’. This simple change removes for the reader in English an alternative interpretation that is present in the Greek: that the ‘first instalment of the Spirit’ is not the gift of the Spirit given fully to Christians now as a guarantee that it will come for others in the future but, rather, the first instalment of the full gift of the Spirit given to Christians as a guarantee of the full outpouring that is to come in the future as much upon Christians as upon others .

The second use in the letter confirms the view that what Paul is referring to is the experience of those ‘in Christ’ who, though they have truly received the Spirit of God and can witness to the gifts of the Spirit among them have, as yet, only received this gift ‘in part’. It comes at the end of 2 Corinthians where Paul is giving sustained attention to the contrast between the present struggle and the future hope:

So we do not lose heart. Even though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed day by day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all measure … (2 Cor 4:16f)
I don't think that Paul thought that he and other apostles had the whole banana though; I think it was mentioned that he, too was still "working on the self."

Active Righteousness from God is concurrent with the active human participation of faith, i.e. accepting the exemplar of Christ and conforming to the Christian norms. Paul is emphatic about this process: “Not that I have already attained or am already perfected, but I press on to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of me. My brothers and sisters, I do not consider that I have already laid hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind, and straining towards what lies ahead, I press on to the finishing line, for the prize of Go’s upward call in Christ Jesjs.” (Phil 3:12-14)
SHOTW pg 646 quoting Fulcanelli said:
The operation is achieved when there appears on the surface a shining star formed by the rays coming from one center, the prototype of the great rose windows of our gothic cathedrals. This is the sure sign that the pilgrim has happily reached the end of his first journey. He has received the mystical blessing of Saint James, confirmed by the luminous imprint that shone, they say, over the tomb of the apostle. The humble and common shell that he wore on his hat has become a shining star, in a halo of light.
Also, while reading SHOTW in relation to all of this I noticed these passages:

SHOTW pg 646-647 said:
Cassiopeia is an enthroned woman, at whose right hand is a star-crowned King Cepheus holding his sceptre toward her. Ancient writings describe her as his wife, and she is also referred to in other ancient sources as, “The Bride, the Lamb’s wife”.
SHOTW pg 677 said:
With her right hand she is arranging her robes, while with her left she is adorning her hair. She is seated upon the Arctic circle, and close by the side of Cepheus, the King. This is the Bride, the Lamb’s wife, the heavenly city, the new Jerusalem”, the, “partakers of the heavenly calling”.
And it made me think about Jesus being referred to as the “lamb of God.” Making Caesar the ‘Lamb’. And Cassiopaea as the wife of Caesar? And Shepherd came to mind for some reason. This all made me search for lamb and shepherd with respect to Paul.

A lion-like lamb that rises to deliver victory after being slain appears several times in the Book of Revelation.[6] It is also referred to in Pauline writings; 1 Corinthians 5:7 suggests that Saint Paul intends to refer to the death of Jesus, who is the Paschal Lamb, using the theme found in Johannine writings.[7] The lamb metaphor is also in line with Psalm 23, which depicts God as a shepherd leading his flock (mankind).

1 Corinthians 5:7 New International Version (NIV)

7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
Then thinking the afterward of SHOTW it made me connect the C’s quotes in two session (below) in relation to Psalm 23 mentioned in the Wikipedia quote, even though I’m not sure if it is significant.

King James Version Psalm 23:1-2 in King James Bible of 1611

  1. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
  2. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
  3. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
  4. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
  5. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
  6. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

21 June 1997 said:
Q: Is this one of those things you are going to avoid?
A: Alfalfa fields in Rhineland yield as of yet undreamed of treasures.
Q: Where are these alfalfa fields?
A: Near tracks well worn.
Q: Another clue, please?
A: Nope, that is enough for now!!
Q: You guys are gonna drive me crazy! Do you mean Rhineland as in Germany proper?
A: We do not mean Rhinelander, Wisconsin... Or do we?!? Who is to tell?
Q: Who?
A: The searcher, the sepulcher, the one who carries the staff in constant search for greener pastures.
Q: Oh my! You are being VERY obscure tonight! Just the fun things I like, too! Now, I think I will be pretty busy this week on this, but is there anything that can be expanded, or any additional clues for me or Ark?
A: Last clue for tonight: Look for the vibratory frequency light.
C’s session – ‘valley of the shadow’ is emphasized by the C’s.

16 April 2016 said:
Q: (Galatea) Why have we all been so exhausted lately? And not just us, but people all over the world?

A: Earth changes bring many changes to humans that are energetic.

Q: (Pierre) In the forum, several members reported that they've been dropping and breaking things in an unusual way. Is the cause the same?

A: Yes

Q: (Galatea) What does the dropping of things symbolize?

A: Doesn't "symbolize". It is a symptom.

Q: (Galatea) Is it gonna get better soon, or is it just going to get worse?

A: You must pass through the "Valley of the Shadow."

Q: (Pierre) That sounds like an exciting place. [laughter]

(L) I guess if you pass through the Valley of the Shadow, you eventually come out into the sunshine.

(Galatea) Or there's a cliff...

A: Yes.

Q: (L) They were answering me, not you! [laughter]

A: No cliff except for those who don't enter the valley.

Q: (Joe) The Valley of the Shadow is like a bypass for the cliff.

(L) So it's like the difference between the high road and the low road?

A: Yes
And all of what I have written above possibly ties into SHOTW, especially the afterword, and made this excerpt from this C’s session make a lot more sense and why it might be ‘clear as mud now’ to Laura.

7 February 2015 said:
Q: (L) Did Paul then go to Spain?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Where did Paul die, in Rome or in Spain?

A: Spain.

Q: (Chu) So is he St. James de Compostela?

A: Close!

Q: (L) So maybe it was Paul who was buried in the Tomb of St. Jacques?

A: Yes

Q: (Perceval) So you have to go on a pilgrimage, Laura!

(L) I've gotta go on a pilgrimage!

(Pierre) Walking!

(Perceval) You can do it on a bike.

(L) Can I ride a horse?

(Perceval) You can drive as long as your keep your head out the window. It's taking in the air.

(Chu) There's a tenuous link, but there's a shell in both cases. The shell is the symbol for St. Jacques / St. James, and there's also the shell for Venus / Caesar.

A: Yes!!

Q: (L) Venus was the ancestry of the Julii. So, it's all beginning to clear up. It's clear as mud now.

A: Enough on your plate! You are making excellent progress!
Caesar (Stoics, ‘Egypt’, sibyls) connected to Paul who is connected to Fulcanelli and the real Da Vinci Code.

"Near tracks well worn" can certainly be considered to be a reference to the Camino de Santiago Compostela.

Fulcanelli gives us a clue:

The Route of Saint James is also called the Milky Way. Greek mythology tells us that the gods followed this route to go to the palace of Zeus and the heroes as well followed it to enter Olympus. The Route of Saint James is the stellar route, accessible to the chosen ones, to the courageous, persevering and wise mortals.
Another interpretation comes from an alchemical term: compost. This refers to the subject of Canseliet’s prefaces: the appearance of a white star indicating the accomplishment of the first part of the Great Work. Fulcanelli notes:

Pure Matter, of which the hermetic star consecrates the perfection: it is now our compost, the blessed water of Compostela ( from the Latin albastrum a contraction of alabastrum, white star). And it is also the vase filled with perfume, the vase of alabaster (Latin alabastrus) and the bud that comes out from the flower of knowledge, the hermetic rose.

The operation is achieved when there appears on the surface a shining star
formed by the rays coming from one center, the prototype of the great rose windows of our gothic cathedrals. This is the sure sign that the pilgrim has happily reached the end of his first journey. He has received the mystical blessing of Saint James, confirmed by the luminous imprint that shone, they say, over the tomb of the apostle. The humble and common shell that he wore on his hat has become a shining star, in a halo of light.

13 July 2002 said:
Q: Is this a correspondence that starts at the basal chakra which relates to the sexual center as described by Mouravieff?

A: No. The "sexual center" corresponds to the solar plexus.

Lower moving center - basal chakra

Lower emotional - sexual chakra

Lower intellectual - throat chakra

Higher emotional - heart chakra

Higher intellectual - crown chakra

Q: (L) What about the so-called seventh, or "third eye" chakra?

A: Seer. The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers.

{Laura's note: This would "close the circuit" in the "shepherd's crook" configuration.}
From ‘Dwellings of the Philosophers’ quoted in SHOTW – “According to the meaning of the Latin word adeptus, the alchemist has then received the Gift of God, or even better, the Present…”

Paul - “by his (God’s) grace as a gift {Seer - The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers – “close the circuit” in the “shepherd's crook” configuration.}

I would propose that the ‘white star,’ the ‘bud that comes out from the flower of knowledge, the hermetic rose’, ‘the shining star,’ and the ‘closing of the circuit in the “shepherd’s crook” configuration’ is what Paul accomplished. He received the ‘Gift of God’ / God’s ‘grace as a gift’ and was able to communicate with 6D STO because of it.

I have a few other smaller ideas from reading the first two chapters of ‘Paul’s Necessary Sin,’ but all of this is already pretty long and involved. Figure I will post about them as I keep reading the book.


FOTCM Member
It has been nearly a couple of months since this book was recommended. I'm grateful that I found time to read and reflect upon it. I had to read some sections several times and now I'm doing a second passing to do some highlights and really, that quote on "love never ends" really is one of those simple truths that is worth every difficulty and suffering! Ashworth argues that "Love never comes to an end, it is a bridge to the future life." Pretty powerful statement if you think about it! Here's the entire text:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

And if I have prophetic powers – that is, the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose; and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love I am nothing – a useless nobody.

Even if I dole out all that I have to give food to the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy; is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.

It is not conceited – arrogant and inflated with pride; it is not rude, and does not act unbecomingly. Love does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it – pays no attention to a suffered wrong.

It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.

Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstance and it endures everything without weakening.

Love never fails – never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end. As for prophecy, it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will be superseded by truth.

For our knowledge is fragmentary and our prophecy is fragmentary.

But when the complete and perfect comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away – become antiquated, void and superseded.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.

For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim reflection of reality as in a riddle or an enigma, but then, when perfection comes, we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part; but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood by God.

And so, faith, hope, love abide; these three, but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1–13)
And Ashworth's translation of the last part:

"For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part. But at the coming of age, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child: when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known." (1 Cor 13:10-12)
Not only there were many quotes that echoed what the Cs have said throughout the years, in many instances I was also reminded of the Zoroastrian material. It read like "a universal message in the bottle", signalling a transformation that will allow a different reality through us, a timeless message. No matter how many thousands of years have passed, the message is essentially of the same nature - in service to others.

Ashworth really must have had a powerful experience to allow him see through the text. He also helped in redeeming my religious upbringing. I went to a Franciscan high school and their prayer used to be one of my favorite things. In times when I feel too self-focused when I really should be finding energy for others, I've prayed substituting "Lord" with "Divine Cosmic Mind" and it was always useful:

[Oh Divine Cosmic Mind], make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is offense, let me bring pardon.
Where there is discord, let me bring union.
Where there is error, let me bring truth.
Where there is doubt, let me bring faith.
Where there is despair, let me bring hope.
Where there is darkness, let me bring your light.
Where there is sadness, let me bring joy.
O [Divine Cosmic Mind], let me not seek as much
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love,
for it is in giving that one receives,
it is in pardoning that one is pardoned,
it is in dying [in you] that one is raised to eternal life.

Couldn't find the appropriate translation from the way the Franciscans used to pray it. I edited the above to make it closer to the version I used to know. I always understood "It is in dying in you" as we understand it in the Work, like the death of the false personality, but I think Ashworth's discussion is equally helpful.

Thanks everyone for the reviews and insights. It really looks like this book would remain a good map for people at large, just as Madame de Salzmann's "First Initiation" has remained a good map for the "only exact measure" to which objectively see. For those who haven't read that powerful text, here's the link:

First Initiation
By Jeanne de Salzmann

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like” or “I don’t like,” you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself” blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat” and the “chaff.” No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like” and “I don’t like.” Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely” to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.
Like the Zoroastrian prayer goes "May we be those who will renew this existence"!
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