Question about abortion

JenGen

A Disturbance in the Force
A young couple get together and don't even think about making a list of illnesses and conditions that ought not to be passed on to a new generation for the sake of that generation that will suffer. It's really mind-boggling.

What I find mind boggling is the statement itself. Is there anyone in this forum who has a condition and also thinks that they should not have been given the gift of life? Do you make your generation "suffer" by your existence? Do you think you ought not to bring a child into this world? Many debilitating conditions are passed on but skip a generation or two before manifesting again.

This is the problem with the advance of technologies in all areas. It makes things "easier", disposable, quick fixed, utopian. Who is perfect or more perfect? The real measure of the human race is not in how we can become more perfect but, how we confront and deal with the "hard". The hard brings out the true measure of character in the face of any adversity. Easy sucks.

Do you have Nazi tendencies Laura? I think you should do some serious soul searching. Or did you make that statement with the intention of sparking interest in SOTT?
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
JenGen said:
A young couple get together and don't even think about making a list of illnesses and conditions that ought not to be passed on to a new generation for the sake of that generation that will suffer. It's really mind-boggling.

What I find mind boggling is the statement itself. Is there anyone in this forum who has a condition and also thinks that they should not have been given the gift of life? Do you make your generation "suffer" by your existence? Do you think you ought not to bring a child into this world? Many debilitating conditions are passed on but skip a generation or two before manifesting again.

This is the problem with the advance of technologies in all areas. It makes things "easier", disposable, quick fixed, utopian. Who is perfect or more perfect? The real measure of the human race is not in how we can become more perfect but, how we confront and deal with the "hard". The hard brings out the true measure of character in the face of any adversity. Easy sucks.
You seem to have had an emotional reaction to an entirely reasonable statement. It is simply humanitarian common sense to avoid needless suffering.

[quote author=JenGen]
Do you have Nazi tendencies Laura? I think you should do some serious soul searching. Or did you make that statement with the intention of sparking interest in SOTT?
[/quote]

That is an unprovoked attack which reveals a high level of hostility. If you feel this way about the founder of this forum, why are you bothering to interact here? If you have any intention to interact in this forum in a polite, civilized manner, then please read the forum guidelines . Else, do not let the door hit you on the way out.
 

Laura

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I can tell you JenGen, that I have watched my children suffer - some of them more horribly than others - and knowing what I know now, I would have inquired into the health history of my ex's family and, having gained that information, would never have had children with him.

My children are here and I love each of them more than myself, but I cannot express how painful it is to me that they must suffer. And certainly, if I had made choices of a different partner, I would have had them anyway but without the suffering. There are things that can be done to minimize that suffering, but it is genetic and to some extent, un-fixable.

Try to imagine what it is like to be at the bedside of your child who is asking you with their eyes, why is this happening to me? Why am I suffering? Why can I not have a normal life? And you know the answer is your own lack of due diligence and real care for the future of a baby you will bring into the world.

So I am speaking from personal, direct, terrible experience, not from the sidelines.
 
L

lwu02eb

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JenGen - an unbelievable response from you.

It is very hard to truly care enough not to have children to prevent their suffering and the potential suffering of others. It is hard to be honest enough with yourself about your motives. It is hard to look around and truly see the horror that exists. It is hard to go against the grain of society and refuse to add to it. It is hard to deal with the contempt of others that you must face as a result. I have noted in several of my threads the reaction that I get from people because a) I choose not to have children and b) I have had an abortion.

What is wrong with adopting or fostering children? If indeed, you are so very enamoured with dealing with the hard issues in life then here is one very good option for you. There are so many children in need already, born thoughtlessly and that go on to suffer terribly as a result. If you feel so strongly about this I would suggest this course of action for you, rather than lambasting others for their true compassion.
 

Niall

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JenGen said:
This is the problem with the advance of technologies in all areas. It makes things "easier", disposable, quick fixed, utopian. Who is perfect or more perfect? The real measure of the human race is not in how we can become more perfect but, how we confront and deal with the "hard". The hard brings out the true measure of character in the face of any adversity. Easy sucks.
And you're here to tell us that? Do you have any clue how hard it was to get this forum and everything connected with it up and running?

JenGen said:
Do you have Nazi tendencies Laura? I think you should do some serious soul searching. Or did you make that statement with the intention of sparking interest in SOTT?
I think you should give some serious thought to whether or not you want to continue interacting here. You don't appear to have any real interest in what we do and why we do it.
 

Chu

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JenGen said:
What I find mind boggling is the statement itself. Is there anyone in this forum who has a condition and also thinks that they should not have been given the gift of life?
It's not that black and white. Maybe you haven't gotten real health issues, or don't know people who do and wonder WHY, and suffer for an entire lifetime? What if that was one of your children? I think the issue is that things COULD be different if parents were to consider their genetics before selfishly deciding to have children. Or at least doing something about their health beforehand.

Do you make your generation "suffer" by your existence?
Maybe not your generation, but I certainly think that in many cases, the next generation pays for our mistakes. And in a sense, we do make our generations suffer, because a lot of physical/mental issues hurt others too. I don't understand where your question comes from, since that was never implied by Laura.

Do you think you ought not to bring a child into this world?
Indeed I do. I see enough suffering in this world. Bringing a child to it sounds cruel at this point in time. In the practical side, having a child is a full-time job. And that would mean spending a lifetime caring for one human being, not being able to really make this world a better place for them, and not focusing on doing something that, as little as it may be, might help millions of other children.

Many debilitating conditions are passed on but skip a generation or two before manifesting again.
Sure, but that is playing lottery on life. If there is a 50/50 chance that my children would have my and my partner's conditions, I say no thank you. I don't want to add more suffering. I love those children that I feel I'm connected to at a soul level, or whatever you want to call it, but I'd rather have them in another life when the probability of making their life so hard is much lower.

This is the problem with the advance of technologies in all areas. It makes things "easier", disposable, quick fixed, utopian. Who is perfect or more perfect? The real measure of the human race is not in how we can become more perfect but, how we confront and deal with the "hard". The hard brings out the true measure of character in the face of any adversity. Easy sucks.
I agree. But when you are not focusing on yourself as the center of the universe, there is a LOT of hardship all around. I think it is more important to deal with that first. Not to mention all our own issues, which also get passed on unless we do something about it.

Do you have Nazi tendencies Laura? I think you should do some serious soul searching. Or did you make that statement with the intention of sparking interest in SOTT?
LOL! Well, I have Jewish genes and family, so if I'm a nazi for thinking like Laura, then... :P I find that statement you made to be utterly ridiculous. We aren't talking about the "perfect race", we are talking about plain human suffering, and parents lack of consideration for such when thinking about reproducing. No matter the "race".

I think that a lot comes down to this idea that one needs to procreate to leave something in this world. It's the fear of death, of being a nobody. It's an illusion, when we think that this physical existence is all there is. And those who pay the price are the offspring.

In a more extreme (but unfortunately common) case, do you think that having a child with a psychopath and passing on his/her genes is honoring "the gift of life"? You could argue that most people don't know about psychopathy, so it's not their fault. But people DO know about their genetic issues most of the time. How are they honoring that life, when they consciously take the risk of creating a life of misery to the beings they proclaim to love the most?
 

Laura

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Ailén said:
I think that a lot comes down to this idea that one needs to procreate to leave something in this world. It's the fear of death, of being a nobody. It's an illusion, when we think that this physical existence is all there is. And those who pay the price are the offspring.
My mother used to point out that people are always talking about having a baby as the "miracle of life" when clearly any rat or lizard can reproduce and nobody raves about "the miracle". Well, if you are talking about LIFE, it's not really a miracle - it is what IS: the consciousness of the universe made manifest. And that consciousness interacts with matter and shapes it and completely subverts the 2nd law of thermodynamics. But that is a natural function of the interaction of the two and that interaction is the source of life which is a SYSTEM. The living system is vast, probably throughout the cosmos, and it is varied because its nature is to BE, to EXIST. That's a given.

So, when you look at all the varieties of life that have existed on this planet and the fact that about 98% of them have gone extinct, you realize that the living system CAN take care of itself; it's not a miracle, it's what it does. And you, as a human being, are simply one infinitesimal part of that system, no more significant than the tiniest microbe in terms of your "miracle of life". The living system is, in fact, in the process of bringing about the extinction of the human species because they haven't worked out too well due, mainly, to that very attitude "Oh, life is a MIRACLE and we have to PRESERVE it no matter how negatively it affects the species or the planet."

Cultural anthropologist, Ernest Becker wrote, while he was dying of cancer, in an attempt to synthesize what he called "the scientific and tragic perspectives on man:

In The Denial of Death, I argued that man's innate and all-encompassing fear of death drives him to attempt to transcend death through culturally standardized hero systems and symbols. ... man's natural and inevitable urge to deny mortality and achieve a heroic self-image are the root causes of human evil.

My previous writings did not take sufficient account of truly vicious human behavior. This is a dilemma that I have been caught in, along with many others who have been trying to keep alive the Enlightenment tradition of a science of man: how to reflect the empirical data on man, the data that show what a horribly destructive creature he has been throughout his history, and yet still have a science that is not manipulative or cynical. If man is as bad as he seems, then either we have to behaviorally coerce him into the good life or else we have to abandon the hope of a science of man entirely. ...

I now see that we must make a clear distinction between man's creatureliness - his appetite - on the one hand and his ingenuity on the other.

Man is an animal. ... the basic human condition: that man is first and foremost an animal moving about on a planet shining in the sun. Whatever else he is, is built on this. ... we shall never understand man if we do not begin with his animal nature. And this is truly basic. The only certain thing we know about this planet is that it is a theater for crawling life, organismic life, and at least we know what organisms are and what they are trying to do.

At its most elemental level the human organism, like crawling life, has a mouth, digestive tract, and anus, a skin to keep it intact, and appendages with which to acquire food. Existence, for all organismic life, is a constant struggle to feed - a struggle to incorporate whatever other organisms they can fit into their mouths and press down their gullets without choking. Seen in these stark terms, life on this planet is a gory spectacle, a science-fiction nightmare in which digestive tracts fitted with teeth at one end are tearing away at whatever flesh they can reach, and at the other end are piling up the fuming waste excrement as they move along in search of more flesh. ...
Life cannot go on without the mutual devouring of organisms. ...

Beyond the toothsome joy of consuming other organisms is the warm contentment of simply continuing to exist - continuing to experience physical stimuli, to sense one's inner pulsations and musculature, to delight in the pleasures that nerves transmit. Once the organism is satiated, this becomes its frantic -all consuming task, to hold onto life at any cost - and the costs can be catastrophic in the case of man.

And this brings us to the unique paradox of the human condition: that man wants to persevere as does any animal or primitive organism; he is driven by the same craving to consume, to convert energy, and to enjoy continued experience. But man is cursed with a burden no animal has to gear: he is conscious that his own end is inevitable, that his stomach will die.

... From the very beginning, man could not live with the prospect of death. ... man erected cultural symbols which do not age or decay to quiet his fear of his ultimate end - and of more immediate concern, to provide the promise of indefinite duration.

We can see that the self-perpetuation of organisms is the basic motive for what is most distinctive about man... it is culture itself that embodies the transcendence of death in some form or other (religion, passing on one's genes, being remembered, etc)... culture itself is sacred, since it is the "religion" that assures in some way the perpetuation of its members. ... Everything cultural is fabricated and given meaning by the mind, a meaning that was not given by physical nature. ... all systematizations of culture have in the end the same goal: to raise men above nature, to assure them that in some ways their lives count in the universe more than merely physical things count. ...

What men have done is shift the fear of death onto the higher level of cultural perpetuity; and this very triumph ushers in an ominous new problem. Since man must now hold for dear life onto the self-transcending meanings of the society in which they live, onto the immortality symbols which guarantee them indefinite duration of some kind, a new kind of instability and anxiety are created. And this anxiety is precisely what spills over into the affairs of men. In seeking to avoid evil (death), man is responsible for bringing more evil into the world than organisms could ever do merely by exercising their digestive tracts. It is man' ingenuity, rather than his animal nature, that has given his fellow creatures such a bitter earthly fate. ... man's impossible hopes and desires have heaped evil in the world.
Talking about the "sacredness of the gift of life" in the face of the monstrous death and destruction human beings have brought on this earth, that exists all around us, is exactly the sort of heaping evil Becker is describing. It is a belief system, imposed on us by our cultural religion, that somehow, human beings are special and different and above the laws of nature.

We are not; and I suspect Nature is about to make that point quite clear in the not-too-distant future.
 
L

lwu02eb

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That is a very fitting and insightful passage, thank you Laura for gathering it and sharing it. That is exactly how I have felt about the human condition most of my life and have been treated like a freak as a result. I just don't see how human beings can be in denial of it when the evidence is present in their own minds, their own bodies, their behaviour, their relationships and they have this mirrored to them second by second by everyone around them. That's before you even start on all the indirect evidence. I will never stop being amazed at the power of denial to create such strong buffers between the senses and the mind/ body, so that it cannot be seen by more than a handful of people.
 

Nienna

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JenGen said:
What I find mind boggling is the statement itself. Is there anyone in this forum who has a condition and also thinks that they should not have been given the gift of life? Do you make your generation "suffer" by your existence? Do you think you ought not to bring a child into this world? Many debilitating conditions are passed on but skip a generation or two before manifesting again.
I find the above paragraph very self-serving. It is so interesting to listen to people who want to have children as to the reasons for having children. Most of the reasons are selfish. They want a child for themselves, not for the child. They think only of themselves, not about the child. It is all about how special it will make the future parents feel, about how important they will feel and how wonderful they are for bringing another life into existence.

Then, as the child grows, it is still all about the parents. At least for most parents. And this is where psychological trauma comes in for the child whether it be in the form of children whose parents are alcoholics, druggies, psychopaths, pedophiles or just plain narcissistic-like in their "parenting" of the child.

I never had children, myself. I knew that I never wanted to have children before I got married. I already had had one fairly bad health problem come to the surface, but that wasn't my only reason. Way back in the 70s, I already saw what a horrible place this was for people and didn't want to use that "gift of life" to bring another person into this mess. I, also, didn't think that I'd be a good parent. Taken all of those things into consideration, I decided not to have children.

Does that make me a Nazi-type person?

I cringe when I see people who are still emotionally children having children because it is what society believes everyone should do. My heart breaks when I see how children nowadays are treated like nothing but little "things" that don't need love, or hugs, or to feel wanted.

And I cry when I read about children who are physically and sexually abused by monsters - a lot of them their own parents, or are injured, maimed or killed by such "freedom loving" countries such as the U.S. Hell, yeah, lets bring more children into the world to be cannon fodder (soldiers), living targets and just plain "fun and games" for the psychopaths who are running this world!

"Gift of life!" What a bunch of horse hockey!!!
 

JenGen

A Disturbance in the Force
One thing I will never do in this forum is to tell anyone that disagrees with my point of view, and some do, is to leave. Everyone who has disagreed is entitled to do so. Like Laura, I have posted, and lay myself open to criticism. My opinion was indeed strong and the responses equally so. Take it for what it's worth.
 

anart

The Living Force
JenGen said:
One thing I will never do in this forum is to tell anyone that disagrees with my point of view, and some do, is to leave. Everyone who has disagreed is entitled to do so. Like Laura, I have posted, and lay myself open to criticism. My opinion was indeed strong and the responses equally so. Take it for what it's worth.
I'm not following you - could you please clarify your point?
 

Scottie

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JenGen said:
One thing I will never do in this forum is to tell anyone that disagrees with my point of view, and some do, is to leave.
That's good, because this is most definitely NOT your forum, so you have no right to ask anyone else to leave. Similarly, if you were in my house, you could not ask me to leave. But I could ask you to leave, especially if you called me a Nazi.

JenGen said:
Everyone who has disagreed is entitled to do so. Like Laura, I have posted, and lay myself open to criticism. My opinion was indeed strong and the responses equally so. Take it for what it's worth.
So, you come into a forum that isn't yours, accuse the owner of being a Nazi, and then suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is welcome to leave?

And if you meant that everyone who disagrees with you is entitled to ask you to leave, and that in this case you have expressed yourself in a "strong" way and that we should take it or leave it, then I believe you are still missing the entire point. Others' responses were exactly that: responses to you essentially calling someone else a Nazi due to an emotional reaction.

It's sort of like walking into a bar, and punching someone in the face. Some of this person's friends tell you off, and you say, "Well, I punched you, you punched me, take it or leave it!"

Personally, my response would be: No, I will neither take it nor leave it, as you threw the first punch because you had an emotional reaction to the suggestion that having children in certain conditions - and possibly even generally speaking given the state of the world - might not be the best idea.
 

Andromeda

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Mr. Scott said:
JenGen said:
One thing I will never do in this forum is to tell anyone that disagrees with my point of view, and some do, is to leave.
That's good, because this is most definitely NOT your forum, so you have no right to ask anyone else to leave. Similarly, if you were in my house, you could not ask me to leave. But I could ask you to leave, especially if you called me a Nazi.
Seriously, JenGen. You seem to be having trouble understanding things. You were told that you should leave if you have no intention of interacting in this forum in a polite and civilized manner. Disagreement would be fine, but the way you are behaving is unacceptable.
 

loreta

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lwu02eb said:
That is a very fitting and insightful passage, thank you Laura for gathering it and sharing it. That is exactly how I have felt about the human condition most of my life and have been treated like a freak as a result. I just don't see how human beings can be in denial of it when the evidence is present in their own minds, their own bodies, their behaviour, their relationships and they have this mirrored to them second by second by everyone around them. That's before you even start on all the indirect evidence. I will never stop being amazed at the power of denial to create such strong buffers between the senses and the mind/ body, so that it cannot be seen by more than a handful of people.
Me too, thank you for this incredible passage of words. All my life I saw humans as they are: animals in a web of life. Many times I was and still are insulted by people that think that I am crazy to say things like that, that we are animals. How come? Are they living in another dimension? They think that humans are superior and in fact religion is the guilty of this thinking. I considered myself nor more important than a spider. That's why I don't kill spiders.

Concerning the abortion: it is a personal decision of the woman who has to take the decision to abort or not. From experience aborting is not an easy decision, it is maybe the most difficult decision that a woman has to take in the course of her life.
 
Laura]A young couple get together and don't even think about making a list of illnesses and conditions that ought not to be passed on to a new generation for the sake of that generation that will suffer. It's really mind-boggling.[/quote] Speaking strictly on my behalf said:
Is there anyone in this forum who has a condition and also thinks that they should not have been given the gift of life?
I am one those "in this forum" who has a "condition", however my "condition" is the result of genetics plus an accident that occurred at the age of 12 rather than just genetics passed on via birth. As to whether or not my parents should have "given [me] the gift of life" is hard to answer considering all the variables (genetics + an unforeseen accident = my specific "condition"). In other words, the end result of their decision to "produce/procreate" me was/is not so cut and dry/black and white.

One thing I will never do in this forum is to tell anyone that disagrees with my point of view, and some do, is to leave. Everyone who has disagreed is entitled to do so. Like Laura, I have posted, and lay myself open to criticism. My opinion was indeed strong and the responses equally so. Take it for what it's worth.
Perhaps you should turn your questions about Laura around onto yourself. Ask yourself if in fact it is you that has Nazi tendencies and/or if you are making statements with the intent to spark interest/create controversy? Also, there may be a need for some "serious soul searching" on your own behalf (stones, glass houses, and all that "jazz").

My two cents, fwiw.
 
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