Question about abortion

Andromeda

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
sitting said:
In Asian cultures, having children means having assurance that someone will be there to take care of aging parents eventually. This sense of obligation on the part of the young runs very strong.
In a healthy society, the elderly person's community would take care of them if they were childless. And, people would not be subject to the same age related illnesses that are prevalent today - so being old would be a lot nicer.
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Andromeda said:
sitting said:
In Asian cultures, having children means having assurance that someone will be there to take care of aging parents eventually. This sense of obligation on the part of the young runs very strong.
In a healthy society, the elderly person's community would take care of them if they were childless. And, people would not be subject to the same age related illnesses that are prevalent today - so being old would be a lot nicer.
But if all there is is lessons, then I can think of no greater lesson than having to care for aging parents. Whether it be karmic or just simple understandings. And it's one that most people cannot avoid. My own experience finally ended two and a half years ago, and I'm still sorting things out in my mind.
 
S

Sirius

Guest
sitting said:
But if all there is is lessons, then I can think of no greater lesson than having to care for aging parents. Whether it be karmic or just simple understandings. And it's one that most people cannot avoid. My own experience finally ended two and a half years ago, and I'm still sorting things out in my mind.
But there are lesson profiles which may differ extremely among each other. Not every person has the same connection and relationship to his parents or other ancestors. For some people it may be a relevant aspect. However, many roads lead to the same destination; the shortest is determined by one's own position, not what has been merely written on the map.
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Sirius said:
sitting said:
But if all there is is lessons, then I can think of no greater lesson than having to care for aging parents. Whether it be karmic or just simple understandings. And it's one that most people cannot avoid. My own experience finally ended two and a half years ago, and I'm still sorting things out in my mind.
But there are lesson profiles which may differ extremely among each other. Not every person has the same connection and relationship to his parents or other ancestors. For some people it may be a relevant aspect. However, many roads lead to the same destination; the shortest is determined by one's own position, not what has been merely written on the map.
Castaneda also highlights the importance of the experience of having someone under your care, though not necessarily an aging parent.

And yes, I agree that lesson profiles may be different for each individual.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
sitting said:
In Asian cultures, having children means having assurance that someone will be there to take care of aging parents eventually. This sense of obligation on the part of the young runs very strong.
True and lot of shades to it. some are very pathological.

In India, that is only for boys. Parents takes care of boys by giving every thing and they are expected to be taken care of. they do it with selfishness of future rewards or mechanical patriarchy program. Any thing different is considered as selfishness. I have seen enough girls are dumped on the streets the moment they are born . If they are not dumped, they are still considered as a burden, unless the parents are wealthy and mature enough. There are cases people will go beyond their means to have girls until they have boy. My grand father ( mothers side ) did it, whose results I see it down to my children. That way, Western countries are considered as heaven for women, but western farm has its own issues. The fundamental problem is we failed to realize that we are in farm that is owned by some body else. No other source talks about that.
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
sitting said:
Sirius said:
sitting said:
But if all there is is lessons, then I can think of no greater lesson than having to care for aging parents. Whether it be karmic or just simple understandings. And it's one that most people cannot avoid. My own experience finally ended two and a half years ago, and I'm still sorting things out in my mind.
But there are lesson profiles which may differ extremely among each other. Not every person has the same connection and relationship to his parents or other ancestors. For some people it may be a relevant aspect. However, many roads lead to the same destination; the shortest is determined by one's own position, not what has been merely written on the map.
Castaneda also highlights the importance of the experience of having someone under your care, though not necessarily an aging parent.

And yes, I agree that lesson profiles may be different for each individual.
And that can be a tricky one, is it not?

My mother's genetic line is Oriental and I can confirm that the taking care of the parents is a big thing entrenched in all of us. Or can I call it program? As I look back at my life, I can see how I was an investment with emotional and financial implications for her.

Growing up to her expectations would remind my mother of "how great" her choices and her life were. Mission accomplished sort of thing. Investing in me financially in things she supported, i.e. big snob education and all the activities that the Control System supports, reassured her that she will have the same financial comforts later in life. It would also mean that the Control System was good for all of us, because it was providing for all of us.

It is amazing how the misery is self-perpetuating in this way. My very own existence threatens my mother's world-view. I'm the reminder that something is amiss in this world to her. A world she wants to protect tooth and nail. So she is forced to exert control over me in fear that her world will collapse right before she dies.

Throughout the years I have pondered this more than I would like to admit and hence the reason I bring it up. Having being raised in an emotional distorted world, it has been nearly impossible to learn how to give each thing its due. Throughout my life, I alternatively fell into the pity trap and did the best I could to fit into the model I was programmed to fit in. "I have to provide for my entire family". But more often than not, I fitted into the model of "you are completely dependent on me, hence you can't grow up and leave the nest, as I need you".

It does remind me of this quote from Unholy Hungers:

Amanda and the wicked queen also use their vampiric mastery of shape shifting to prey upon Laura and Snow White. In one instant, the feminine vampire may appear to us as a concerned woman who dispenses valuable advice. In another instant, she may don the seductive garb of a feminine soulmate who pretends to help us realize our romantic or
professional aspirations. In yet another instant, the feminine vampire may adopt the appearance of a helpless, adoring child who wants only our love and attention. Or she may appear in the disguise of a maternal protector who stands between us and a host of ostensible predators, all whom are vividly described to us by the vampire. With each mask, the feminine psychic vampire appeals to a different aspect our psyche, switching disguises frequently so we do not become wise to the game. The most effective of the feminine vampire's disguises, however is the mask she dons for those outside the vampire-victim dyad. Like Amanda and the wicked queen, the feminine vampire frequently appears to the outside world as a model of solicitude and goodwill. This may be the most devastating of the vampire's disguises, because it leads us to doubt our own sense of reality when we are confronted with the disbelief of the duped onlookers. "What do you mean, your mother is a guilt-inducing bloodsucker? She's so nice and innoccent!" "How can you say that your mate is a wheedling manipulator? She's so accommodating and good natured!" "Aren't you being ungrateful to refer to your boss as a vampire? She's so sweet tempered and vulnerable!" In the face of public response like this, it is no wonder that we may decide to slump back into the sweet, suffocating fog. It takes a fierce conviction regarding our endangerment, such as Snow White possesses at the end of her story, for us to deactivate a sugar-coated vampire.

The final ploy of the feminine vampire in both these stories is to separate her intended victim from the powerful forces of masculine energy and her own instincts, particularly her potent sexuality. In the story of Snow White, the queen's poisoned apple threatens to separate her victim from the masculine energies of the dwarves and any potential suitors,
and from the instinctive power of the great warhorse who will eventually save her. In The Glass Menagerie, Amanda subtly tries to sabotage Laura's connection with Jim by flirting with him and denigrating Laura. The maternal vampire compounds her daughter's sense of powerlessness by attempting to either seduce or suppress any male energy (including the daughter's own masculinity) that might free her daughter from her clutches. As long as the mother can control the masculine energies in and around her daughter (energies that Jung would call the animus), the daughter is gravely endangered. Her mother will never permit her to attract external masculine energies by embodying her own feminine sexuality, nor is the daughter allowed to reclaim her own masculine energies, and she certainly cannot attack the maternal vampire who holds her animus hostage. Instead, the daughter is obliged to serve as a masculine champion to her vampiric mother, while simultaneously remaining in a subordinate feminine position. Sadly, this story is lived out
in the life of every woman who serves her mother’s masculine aspirations by excelling professionally, but who abandons her personal assertiveness and her feminine sexuality in the face of her mother's envy and resentment.


Given the feminine vampire's insidious power, it is essential that we find a model for her deactivation. But first, we must remember not to become too dogmatic in our interpretations of these stories. Not all relationships are permeated with vampiric energy. The difference between normal loving and vampiric exploitation has to do with the nature of the energy that underlies the behavior. The vampiric person does not simply feel that “I don't know what to do when my beloved is gone." Rather, she feels that "I cease to exist when my beloved is gone." The feminine vampire attempts to neutralize this feeling by manipulating her victim with the guilt-inducing tactics of martyrdom and conditional gratitude. This may be why feminine vampirism is so insidious: in order to extricate ourselves from its embrace, we must deactivate the vampiric energy in an apparently vulnerable person who seems to profoundly, indeed desperately, appreciate us. That s a very difficult strategy to resist. If we don't refuse these pathetic vampires, however, we are likely to follow in Laura Wingfield's tragic footsteps.
I have made the wrong judgments more often than not when dealing with this issue. As a spoiled child, I had to admit my mother's "wisdom" that I only care about myself and that I had to be conscientious about our genetic family suffering in the East. After all, I was so darn lucky! But by not outgrowing my own programming, I'm in a very bad position to provide for them at all. What difference can I make in their suffering by following the same model they have followed generation upon generation? What does providing for them from a higher perspective will entail?

Gurdjieff said "A true sign of a good man is if he loves his father and mother" in one of his aphorisms. Perhaps this has to do with what he said elsewhere:

“You know “Justice” is a big word - it is a big thing in the world. Objective things are not small things like microbae, they go according to law, as the law has accustomed them to go. Remember; as you sow, so you will reap. Not only people reap, but also families and nations. It is often that that which happens on earth comes from something which was done by a father or a grandfather. The results converge on you, the son or the grandson, it is you who have to regulate them. This is not injustice, it is a very great honor for you; it will be a means for you to regulate the past of your father, grandfather, great-grandfather. If misfortune come to you in the youth, it means that someone has brought them – for this you must reap. He is dead, it is another who reaps. You must not look at yourself egotistically. You are a link in the share of your blood. Be proud of it, it is an honor to be this link. The more you are obliged to repair the past, the more you will have remorse of conscience. You will succeed in remembering all that which you have not done as you should in the past. Those things which you have done contrary to "JUSTICE“ have mortified your grandfather. Thus you can have ten times more remorse of conscience and your worth will augment in proportion. You are not the tail of a donkey. You have responsibilities, a family. All your family, past and future, depends on you. Your entire family depends on the way how you repair the past. If you repair for everyone, it is good. If you do not repair for everyone, it is bad. You see your situation. Logically, do you see what "Justice“ is? Justice is not occupied with your little affairs, unredeemed pledges, it is preoccupied with big things. It is idiotic to believe God thinks of small things. It is the same with Justice. Justice does not touch all that, and at the same time nothing is done on earth without it. Search for the reasons. You are obliged to have a position of responsibility in the line of your blood; you must work more to repair the past. It is difficult to understand all at once.”
In trying to find out more about my mother's oriental line, I drew a big blank. My mother doesn't know much, just little remarks here and there. Like a fairy story, it goes likes this "We were from Korea and since there was famine, we moved to Siberia. Then Stalin cared so much for us and our reliability as a population, that he moved us to the Soviet Middle East so we wouldn't be mistaken by the Japanese who were the enemy. Then in the Middle East we proved to be such good workers and had many opportunities. Grandfather was a great honored man who fought in the Korea war" and so forth.

Yet, when I go to dig out a few historical facts, what strikes me as my big heredity is MASSIVE self-denial. As it turns out, we are part of the Koryosaram, the name which ethnic Koreans in the post-Soviet states use to refer to themselves. Stalin called us "the unreliable people" and his treatment towards the Koryosaram are well documented in the following film:

Koryo Saram - The Unreliable People

_http://www.koryosaram.net/about_film.html

Synopsis

In 1937, Stalin began a campaign of massive ethnic cleansing and forcibly deported everyone of Korean origin living in the coastal provinces of the Far East Russia near the border of North Korea to the unsettled steppe country of Central Asia 3700 miles away. This story of 180,000 Koreans who became political pawns during the Great Terror is the central focus of this film.

Koryo Saram (the Soviet Korean phrase for Korean person) tells the harrowing saga of survival in the open steppe country and the sweep of Soviet history through the eyes of these deported Koreans, who were designated by Stalin as an "unreliable people" and enemies of the state. Through recently uncovered archival footage and new interviews, the film follows the deportees' history of integrating into the Soviet system while working under punishing conditions in Kazakhstan, a country which became a concentration camp of exiled people from throughout the Soviet Union.

Today, in the context of Kazakhstan's recent emergence as a rapidly modernizing, independent state, the story of the Kazakhstani-Koreans situated within this ethnically diverse country has resonance with the experience of many Americans and how they have assimilated to form new cultures in our world of increasingly displaced people.
Displaced is my other inheritance and how I felt my entire life. It pains me to realize that my grandfather went to great pains to fit in an overly sick society. Although I'm filling in the blank here as I never met him. Maybe he was very happy to do it. It does pain me though.

As far as I can see, all the members of my Oriental family are trying so hard to fit into a System that doesn't give a damn about them. On the contrary, Koryosaram dissenters were quickly killed, dealt with and eliminated back then. Once the program was installed, the rest of us didn't see fighting the System as an option anymore, but had actively protected it since then.

It is sad enough that as a Matrix agent, my mother or any Koryosaram for that matter, would hardly understand or support any choice that goes on redeeming our ancestral pain. And the story gets repeated throughout nations and generations...

I don't know what I would do when the time comes for my mother to reclaim her investment, i.e. me. In a sense, she has done this continually and I had allowed her to do it through my own actions. But it is still kind of amazing to see how she has said that by the time she had her pension, I should be paying for her and my whole family. Now the time had come, and she looks like she has 20 years less of her real age and she is still able to draw money out of seemingly thin air. She is still providing for the entire family which perpetuates the miserable lives we have all led.

I'm so glad that I'm not perpetuating this to any child of mine as I have none. And I hope to come into terms and deactivate the psychic vampire and that in an alternate reality, we are able to be ourselves in a truly giving nature supported by a truly giving Universe. If I can deprogram myself so as to finally be myself, I think that is the best payment I can give back to my mother.
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
I just want to say that caring for aging parents does not always have to stem from some sort of undesirable societal programming. It can stem from love, affection, and forgiveness.

On another note, I've followed your recent travails with interest, and have noticed your preoccupation with academic achievements. That's a shield I think. In years past, I had a similar shield. My children attended what is considered elite boarding schools, and top Ivy League colleges. That was my shield. It was dumb. And it looks dumb to most people the very first time they encounter it.
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
sitting said:
I just want to say that caring for aging parents does not always have to stem from some sort of undesirable societal programming. It can stem from love, affection, and forgiveness.
It can. The tricky part is to find out whether it applies to us or not. Socio-cultural programming runs deep and engulfs us like a fish in water. Our default thinking is driven by the desire to feel good about ourselves and doing things that society approves is a way of satisfying that desire. The actions may work out well some of the times, and not so well for all concerned at other times (the law of three applies).

One possible way to look deeper into the motivation aspect could be to see what happens when we go against what is accepted as good according to social standards even for a short time. What emotions does it bring out within us? It is necessary to be brutally honest with ourselves in such a situation to see ourselves as we are and not how we would like to be perceived by ourselves and others. Even thinking about it and networking may provide some clues if it is not practically possible to carry out the actual experiment.

My 2 cents
 

Andromeda

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
sitting said:
I just want to say that caring for aging parents does not always have to stem from some sort of undesirable societal programming. It can stem from love, affection, and forgiveness.
I agree. Actually, I think that love and affection is usually why people take care of their aging parents. Of course there may also be feelings of obligation and duty, but generally it's because they care. I also agree that it can be very important for people to have the experience of caring for someone else. But, I think that that experience, or lesson, or karmic debt, or whatever anyone wants to call it, doesn't necessarily have to shared with a biological parent or child. We could take care of each others parents or children when someone is childless or parentless.
 

cassandra

Jedi Council Member
I know money is an issue with many members, but has anyone ever condidered adopting a child? Not an easy process, but there are plenty around. It's a heartbreaking situation.
Had I been wiser and didn't already have kids, I would have probably given the matter quite some thought.
Yes, I would make mistakes, but I could have certainly give most of them a better life ...
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Andromeda said:
I also agree that it can be very important for people to have the experience of caring for someone else.
It puts the whole concept of "service to others" right front and center. And acting without expectation of reward. I will simply add that caring for parents is different from most other situations. And it's difficult for those who have not gone through the experience to really understand this. The emotional intensity is often unmatched. Everything in your life comes up. What made it possible for me was sufficient family financial resources, plus unlimited time availability. But underneath it all, was love, affection (especially for my mom), acceptance, and most of all, forgiveness.
 
H

Hildegarda

Guest
cassandra said:
I know money is an issue with many members, but has anyone ever condidered adopting a child? Not an easy process, but there are plenty around. It's a heartbreaking situation.
Had I been wiser and didn't already have kids, I would have probably given the matter quite some thought.
Yes, I would make mistakes, but I could have certainly give most of them a better life ...
Cassandra, I know you are speaking from your heart, but this is where some discernment is necessary.

In general, people are better off growing up with a family and being part of one. But people resent being treated like charity cases while having their birth identity denied, which unfortunately is built in the adoption process as it is known in the West today. This leads to a lot of trauma.

A lot of children currently facing adoption today will be better served if either the society or caring individuals help preserve their birth families. "Adopting" a child by covering their education and meals, as an example, helps both the child and their birth family, and can be achieved by a small donation. There are also plenty of volunteering options that can be done in person.
 

David

Jedi Master
Pregnant woman died after hospital denied abortion

This article was carried on the front page in the Independent (Irish National Paper) and covered in other media reports.

From_http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pregnant-woman-died-after-hospital-denied-abortion-3293842.html

A PREGNANT woman died in hospital following a miscarriage after her family requested an abortion to try to save her life.
…snip…
The 31-year-old married woman, Savita Halappanavar, is understood to have died from blood poisoning.
…snip…
Local Labour TD Derek Nolan said he was “very concerned” by reports the family was told an abortion would not be allowed because Ireland was a “Catholic country”.
…snip…
“That the religious ethos of the State should interfere is seriously damaging,” he added.
…Snip…
Her family pleaded for a termination to be carried out, saying the foetus was not viable.

The operation was denied but she later underwent surgery to remove the remains of the foetus.
The woman subsequently developed septicaemia, where bacteria gets into the blood stream. The infection proved to be fatal.
…snip…
Mrs Halappanavar died suddenly at 1.10am on October 28 – a week after being admitted to hospital with back pain.
…snip…
Mrs Halappanavar showed up at Galway University Hospital last month complaining of back pain.
She was found to be miscarrying.

But her husband said she asked hospital officials several times over three days for a medical termination but the hospital refused because there was a foetal heartbeat still present and sources say he was told “this is a Catholic country”.
…snip..
Ridiculous situation
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
Hildegarda said:
In general, people are better off growing up with a family and being part of one. But people resent being treated like charity cases while having their birth identity denied, which unfortunately is built in the adoption process as it is known in the West today. This leads to a lot of trauma.

A lot of children currently facing adoption today will be better served if either the society or caring individuals help preserve their birth families. "Adopting" a child by covering their education and meals, as an example, helps both the child and their birth family, and can be achieved by a small donation. There are also plenty of volunteering options that can be done in person.
Do you mean to prevent future cases of children without families?

I agree that helping a family is the best option if the child has a family, and doing whatever one can to change the cause of all the abandoned, starving, abused children, by helping adults in places with much poverty is more noble, as you don't get the gratification of a child, and the saviour role... (I am also paying some organization who claims to be helping women in Africa to become self sufficient, hoping that it makes a difference to some)

...and I would also suspect that the adoption industry is corrupt, though I don't know much about it.

(and now to the but)
...but still it would make a big difference for the one child that doesn't have not even a poor family to take care of them to get adopted.

I mean I'd surely prefer the trauma of being treated like a charity case and have my birth identity denied, to say, child prostitution, starvation, and such misery.

Am I missing something here?
 

cassandra

Jedi Council Member
Sorry it has taken ages for me to reply, Hildegarda. I've been working on transcibing "Scientology, the CIA and MIVILUDES: Cults of Abuse", another brilliant and shocking documentary, which has had me thinking.

I agree that the adoption process is traumatic for the kids involved. It's utterly disgaraceful that their birth identities are denied. Yes, it would be better to support familes to support themselves and that in most cases, children are better off with their real families.
But what about children whose parents are either beyond help (chronic alcoholics and drug abusers, terminally ill without any other family members, etc.), complete no-hopers, insane or psychopathic?
When one hears of all-too-common abuse and neglect in children's homes, isn't the reality on this evil 3D plane, that in some cases they would still be better off with people who are in a position to give them attention, affection, education and (relative) safety, at least a chance of a better future?

Some families are simply not interested in helping their own. My sister-in-law's parents were caught smuggling their children out of former East Germany. Her parents were sent to prison for 3 and 7 years. Ashamed of being related to such traitors, the family (uncles, aunts, grandparents) refused to take the two small girls in. They ended up in a home where god only knows what happened to them. When their mother was released, they were made to share an appartment with a convicted paedophile. The mother would lock the girls in their room for protection whenever she had to go out alone.

But of course, the adoption process being what it is, it would be further complicated by stipulating you would only adopt a child whose families are not in any position to support their own flesh and blood.
 
Top Bottom