Question about abortion

truth seeker

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
cassandra said:
But what about children whose parents are either beyond help (chronic alcoholics and drug abusers, terminally ill without any other family members, etc.), complete no-hopers, insane or psychopathic?
When one hears of all-too-common abuse and neglect in children's homes, isn't the reality on this evil 3D plane, that in some cases they would still be better off with people who are in a position to give them attention, affection, education and (relative) safety, at least a chance of a better future?
While I don't disagree that sometimes kids might be better off with people in a better position to care for them, perhaps this may be yet another subject where the specific situation needs to be considered.

I have a family member who knew several children who may have been better off elsewhere yet the courts ended up placing them with an older sibling. While that sounded like a reasonable solution, that person was little better at taking care of her sister/brothers than their mother was. What my relative (he was a friend of the family) did was to make sure they were fed and had a place to go after school. I don't know if that was the best way to handle it but they worked within the given situation as best they could. I guess the outcome really depends upon many factors.
 
H

Hildegarda

Guest
truth seeker said:
While I don't disagree that sometimes kids might be better off with people in a better position to care for them, perhaps this may be yet another subject where the specific situation needs to be considered.
Miss K., Cassandra, I apologize in turn for dropping the ball on this. What truthseeker said above this is largely what I had in mind as well. To say that

I'd surely prefer the trauma of being treated like a charity case and have my birth identity denied, to say, child prostitution, starvation, and such misery.
implies a black-and-white choice and perhaps even a suggestion that I've seen it before in such discussions, that adoption equals to salvation, while failure to be adopted leads directly to prostitution, starvation, etc. More likely, in reality there is a lot of choices in between these extreme ones. Such as, growing up in your own community in modest circumstances that are challenging, but reward even small efforts on bettering yourself and your family through education etc.

I just wanted to say that, if one is moved to create a family through adoption, or feels genuinely drawn to a plight of a particular child, it has a better chance of being a success than if one's primary motivation is to be a savior to the children of the world. The latter one is guaranteed to be sorely tested, as kids will be kids, and will show immaturity, brattiness, or special challenges. Sometimes it's those traits of attachment or enmeshment that could be a negative influence in the family, as described earlier, help parents get through hard times simply because we are wired biologically to stick with those we deem our own. But if the only thing that drives you is the sacrifice you made, it's easier to give up and rationalize that. Up to 1% of adoptions are dissolved for various reasons. Having expectations that were not met, or unrealistic goals, is probably a significant factor there.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
As Truthseeker sez, the specific situation is important. I know of two adoptions that turned out horribly, horribly wrong. But I also know of about half a dozen others that turned out beautifully right. And those are just the ones that have randomly entered my field of view in life so I suspect that most adoptions are a very good thing on both sides.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
Hildegarda said:
truth seeker said:
While I don't disagree that sometimes kids might be better off with people in a better position to care for them, perhaps this may be yet another subject where the specific situation needs to be considered.
Miss K., Cassandra, I apologize in turn for dropping the ball on this. What truthseeker said above this is largely what I had in mind as well. To say that

I'd surely prefer the trauma of being treated like a charity case and have my birth identity denied, to say, child prostitution, starvation, and such misery.
implies a black-and-white choice and perhaps even a suggestion that I've seen it before in such discussions, that adoption equals to salvation, while failure to be adopted leads directly to prostitution, starvation, etc. More likely, in reality there is a lot of choices in between these extreme ones. Such as, growing up in your own community in modest circumstances that are challenging, but reward even small efforts on bettering yourself and your family through education etc.

I just wanted to say that, if one is moved to create a family through adoption, or feels genuinely drawn to a plight of a particular child, it has a better chance of being a success than if one's primary motivation is to be a savior to the children of the world. The latter one is guaranteed to be sorely tested, as kids will be kids, and will show immaturity, brattiness, or special challenges. Sometimes it's those traits of attachment or enmeshment that could be a negative influence in the family, as described earlier, help parents get through hard times simply because we are wired biologically to stick with those we deem our own. But if the only thing that drives you is the sacrifice you made, it's easier to give up and rationalize that. Up to 1% of adoptions are dissolved for various reasons. Having expectations that were not met, or unrealistic goals, is probably a significant factor there.
I hear you, didn't mean to think black and white. I have just found it strange sometimes when people try for years to get pregnant with help from doctors, that they don't consider adoption, as many children are without parents, but I agree that the saviour complex is ugly, and not in favour of the child.
I don't have the option to adopt as I'm not rich enough, and single, but when I see children without anybody to take care of them I want to take them home and comfort them. I don't know if it is a saviour program, or just that "if they don't have anybody else I can't just walk by" (Is that a saviour program too?)
I would consider adoption if I was rich enough to get approved, but I know that it wouldn't be all roses and me being the hero, as think I understand how difficult it must be for the child (the older the more difficult)
 

truth seeker

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Miss.K said:
I don't know if it is a saviour program, or just that "if they don't have anybody else I can't just walk by" (Is that a saviour program too?)
I think it depends upon the individuals underlying motivation based on how objectively they view a particular situation. It may well be a narrative (read lie) one tells the self in order to bolster the savior program or it can come from a righteous standpoint when we see no one else taking responsibility, so we choose to.

With that said, as we are all sts, it's very difficult to impossible to Do anything for the right reasons all the time but this, I think, underscores the importance of questioning ourselves, not trusting our own thoughts and trying our best to clean and know our machines. And, of course, networking. ;D Hope that clarifies.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
truth seeker said:
Miss.K said:
I don't know if it is a saviour program, or just that "if they don't have anybody else I can't just walk by" (Is that a saviour program too?)
I think it depends upon the individuals underlying motivation based on how objectively they view a particular situation. It may well be a narrative (read lie) one tells the self in order to bolster the savior program or it can come from a righteous standpoint when we see no one else taking responsibility, so we choose to.

With that said, as we are all sts, it's very difficult to impossible to Do anything for the right reasons all the time but this, I think, underscores the importance of questioning ourselves, not trusting our own thoughts and trying our best to clean and know our machines. And, of course, networking. ;D Hope that clarifies.
well said, thank you truth seeker :)
 
Reproduction

This is a question which I've pondered over for many years and where the answer flips back and forth in my head to the point where I'm still not sure if there is even a correct answer for everyone.

As a background, I'm now at the stage in my life where it could be considered a crossroads - I could either pursue a relationship and raise a family, or not. In my mind each has pros and cons, and where a void may exist due to a lack of the other, it would most likely be filled with something else (e.g. work, family, or 'something else'). In short, I would be happy to have a family, but I would also be happy to not have a family. If I were to lean one way or the other though it'd probably be not to have a family as the drive or desire isn't really there at the moment (and I haven't met anyone who inspires that pursuit).

My general question is: Is the core purpose of reproduction (in our reality) one of STO or STS orientation, or is it either/or depending on the individual? I come unstuck at this point, because it could be argued for either. In one sense, reproduction could be seen as a way to progress our species, with each generation gaining on the knowledge acquired by the one previous, in which case it could be seen as being STO. But in another sense, we might choose to have children as an insurance policy - when we get old, they'll be able to help us out and take care of us, which is how many cultures still live today. In that sense it might be considered STS. There are many, many variations on the whole STO vs STS mentality behind having children, and I don't wish to offend people who are parents, as I think this question is also relative too based on what the individual has chosen to learn. The two examples are just examples to highlight a point of difference.

The above is a general question, but my personal question which may also apply to others here is: Is the feeling of not needing to carry on the species and feeling the need to have children; not feeling the urge or instinctive requirement to 'survive' an indication that we're at the end of a particular learning cycle?
 

Alada

The Living Force
Re: Reproduction

Well since this whole neck of the woods has been described by the Cs as STS – that we are born into an STS system - I’d say that the whole way we are programmed around the idea of having children is firmly hooked into STS too.

Generally, in the context of ‘raising a family’ I think people have children for themselves, not for the sake of the unborn child, to satisfy a need of one type or another, be it purely chemical or ego driven or both – and that said speaking as a loving parent.
 

Third_Density_Resident

Jedi Council Member
Re: Reproduction

It's very interesting to note that the majority of people who have undergone near-death experiences (NDEs) and were still able to have children, found that all their desires to have children and pass on their genes vanished upon having the NDE. They felt that there was simply no need to "immortalise" themselves through children because they realised that such "immortalisation" was superficial and only on the physical level, as opposed to their spiritual selves which survive physical death.
 

Kisito

Jedi Council Member
Re: Reproduction

In the Gospel of the Egyptians, Salome asks Jesus when to the time man will be good. He says: " when the woman will not give birth any more ".
 

LQB

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: Reproduction

3D Resident said:
It's very interesting to note that the majority of people who have undergone near-death experiences (NDEs) and were still able to have children, found that all their desires to have children and pass on their genes vanished upon having the NDE. They felt that there was simply no need to "immortalise" themselves through children because they realised that such "immortalisation" was superficial and only on the physical level, as opposed to their spiritual selves which survive physical death.
That is interesting 3D R - it does seem like an NDE might loosen the bonds of that program. Where did you run across that statement?
 
Re: Reproduction

If I knew all this things 5 years ago - about this STS place we live in...and how hard we must truly work on ourselfs in light of The Fourth Way teaching to become 'human' not machine....oh my,...I would never, ever had a child..
We have nothing to offer to our kids...only very hard lessons if we are even a bit waken up... we only produce more and more 'food for the moon' IMHO :(

But couse now I have a child - I'm doing my best to show her on my example how we should be, how to think, be objective, how to (try to) act in STO way etc...
it's not easy even with just ourselves but to take the best and to learn most possible out of present situation is the key...

I might be wrong but this is the way I feel at the moment :rolleyes:
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: Reproduction

I think we covered this topic pretty well in a thread about abortion.
 
Thanks Laura. I did do a search with the intention of not creating a new topic needlessly, but I guess I have to work more on my searching skills. I didn't think to associate abortion with reproduction. :-[

The discussion in the above thread generally answers my questions.
 

RevChristoph

The Force is Strong With This One
I'd like to thank everyone who had some input on this topic. It definitely opened my mind and gave me a lot to think about.
 
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