Question about abortion

Scottie

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This whole topic has been churning around in my head all day.

I think it's pretty safe to say that most parents don't choose to have children because it's beautiful, or because it's spiritual, or because they are actually ready to truly love, nurture, and care for a new human being.

When I think of all of the people that I know, I cannot think of one single instance where the couple decided to have children for what I would call the "right" reasons.

There is pressure from parents because they want to be grandparents. There is the necessity to "carry on the line", and to "live one's life", which means, "get married, make babies, and be happy".

The only problem is that given the divorce rate at present, this happens to fewer and fewer people. How many people have babies because they think it will save their relationship? How many people have babies because to them, a baby is the ultimate accessory? How many people have babies because their siblings did, and it made grandma and grandpa happy, so, "oh boy, we better hurry so we can compete"?

How many people have babies because they want to narcissistically create a perfect little "Mini Me"? And there can be a sort of "joint narcissism", where the parents seem to want a child because it will be the perfect blend of what is best in both partners (never mind that short of genetic engineering, this isn't possible to determine beforehand).

How many parents have all kinds of dreams for their children, while ignoring what their children actually want - or even just allowing them to BE children? I'm reminded of someone I know who worked in a hospital, and he decided his son would be a doctor. Now, his son is grown. He is not a doctor, but a dietician. Well, great, he didn't pressure his kid too much then, right? Except that: what does it say about the father that when his son was 8, he was telling the little boy what he would be when he grew up? Clearly, the child was a way for him to live his dreams. This is certainly normal human behavior, and it's even understandable. But it's also neither beautiful nor spiritual.

How many people have a baby because their clock is ticking? How many people who cannot have a child resort to all sorts of medical trickery to essentially "force the issue" when one or the other of their bodies is pretty clearly indicating, "Yo! You shouldn't have kids!"'' Why is having children seen as some sort of "right" instead of something to ponder deeply and thoroughly? We're not talking about buying a car; we're talking about a human life, a soul, whatever...

Why do so many couples feel that without a child or children, their lives are meaningless? If you have a partner who you truly love, and who truly loves you, then what does it matter? "But we so WANT a baby!" Great. WHY?? "Wanting" is not a good reason. You are supposed to want a new cell phone, or a fancier car, or a bigger house. A human being is none of these.

I could go on and on...

But the point is that in all of these cases, the real issue is not beauty, or spirituality, or holiness, or the miracle of life, or any of that stuff.

To me, it seems the real issue is that as human beings, most people are wholly unaware of their own crap, and creating a child is the way to cover it up. The so-called "miracle of life" is all too often a way to bury one's own misery, lack of awareness, and general UNhappiness.

That's why so many parents talk about how hard it is to raise children: so much work, so little sleep, so much money, so much worrying... Without the child, they would have nothing to focus on but themselves and/or each other. And that's a scary notion for most people, I reckon.

I think this is also why when all the kids have left the "nest", life changes. Things go back to the way they were BC - before children. Life loses its "sweetness", so to speak.

And then the rush for the grandkids is on!

And the cycle repeats.
 
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lwu02eb

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In the end, what it all boils down to is the simple fact that having a child is yet another indulgence, in a long line of indulgences that Mother Earth simply cannot afford. And so, it comes at the expense of something else. We've been getting that message for a VERY long time.
 

Niall

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To me, it seems the real issue is that as human beings, most people are wholly unaware of their own crap, and creating a child is the way to cover it up. The so-called "miracle of life" is all too often a way to bury one's own misery, lack of awareness, and general UNhappiness.

That's why so many parents talk about how hard it is to raise children: so much work, so little sleep, so much money, so much worrying... Without the child, they would have nothing to focus on but themselves and/or each other. And that's a scary notion for most people, I reckon.

I think this is also why when all the kids have left the "nest", life changes. Things go back to the way they were BC - before children. Life loses its "sweetness", so to speak.

And then the rush for the grandkids is on!
That makes a lot of sense, that the root reason for having children is to live through them, to project our emotional baggage onto them as was done to us before.

Equally horrific and directly connected to this is the psychophagic aspect - parents literally suck up their children's light. Knowingly? Unless they're psychopaths, of course not. But even relatively normal parents are so lost in their darkness, they have no idea how it behaves like a black hole, absorbing the light of creativity from their own children.

Do all parents do this, all of the time? No, probably not, and those that do do it to varying degrees, but recalling that emotionally deformed adults resulting from childhood traumas seem to be the general rule in the population, I really can't think how else to account for it. Maybe there's more to the story of Cronus devouring his children than meets the eye: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Devouring_His_Son

No parent ever sees it that way, of course. Hormones play their part to ensure the cycle of suffering continues.

I think if people were to suddenly see the reality for what it is, they would, en masse, immediately stop having children.
 

Approaching Infinity

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Mr. Scott said:
Why is having children seen as some sort of "right" instead of something to ponder deeply and thoroughly? We're not talking about buying a car; we're talking about a human life, a soul, whatever...

Why do so many couples feel that without a child or children, their lives are meaningless? If you have a partner who you truly love, and who truly loves you, then what does it matter? "But we so WANT a baby!" Great. WHY?? "Wanting" is not a good reason. You are supposed to want a new cell phone, or a fancier car, or a bigger house. A human being is none of these.
I think the idea that people feel they have the "right" to children, that it is a great spiritual event, is probably just one of those system 2 narratives to whitewash plain ol' system 1 processes. Life is programmed to procreate, plain and simple. That's many a year (plus some) of biological imperative influencing our reproductive drives. Sure, we can dress it up with fancy words, but they're just a mask for something humans have very little control over.

I think of the Paleo peoples, and hunter-gatherer tribes, and things are so much different. First of all, children seem to be more "the tribe's" children than the individual parents. Young people might have children, but it's the elders that do the raising, and it's a collective process. Without children, the tribe will not survive. Pretty simple. Same with too MANY children. There's a balance to it.

But our society is so abnormal, there's no balance, and nothing really happens in an optimal way. There are way too many people, children are raised by parents with no 'credentials', and the general psychopathology of modern life creates a perfect recipe for all the narcissistic projecting mentioned by Mr. Scott. I certainly can't imagine a hunter-gatherer tribe having children with those motivations.

So, what can we do? I think the only thing possible with things as they are is to do the Work, and make decisions accordingly. Self-knowledge seems the only way, to me, of subverting the influence of biological imperative. Of course, very few will do that. A comet blasting us back to the Stone Age, forcing us to recreate more 'natural' conditions might be more effective, on the macro scale...
 

Josi

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I have wondered for a long time at what age children no longer are a "miracle"?

I have a co-worker who has four "miracles". The kids are now 10, 9, 7, and 16 months. Miracle one (oops) - got married, miracle two (oops), miracle three (oops -one week before scheduled vasectomy). Husband is completely pathological - end up divorced (3 years ago). A couple of months after their divorce was final - she had a short lived relationship with "Mister Perfect Christian" who she met online, who arrived on a Greyhound bus for their first date (because he had no license for not paying child support). He stayed on their first date for a month. Just by reading one paragraph of his facebook there were all kinds of read flags, and I tried to warn her before they met in person. By the time she figured out he was an idiot and a freeloading loser it was already a "miracle" (oops) number four on the way. "God's will", ya know.

So, now she has to have state assistance for her rent, because her ex-husband has the kids half the time, and has to pay very little child support (which he doesn't even pay). The three kids come back to her after a week with him, completely a mess. He takes pleasure in getting them riled up against her. The court and Child Social Services have repeatedly told him not to do that. He recently sent her a video of them cheering that they didn't have to go home to her house until the next day. The father of the fourth doesn't pay child support, because he doesn't have a job, and at 40, lives with his mother.

The second child, a son is showing VERY disturbing signs of pathology. I don't know him well enough to say he is a psychopath, but he is clearly disturbed. Child Social Services had concerns of him harming the baby before she was born. He has to have counseling and take drugs, and the father hinders the process (even court ordered), by not paying, or not taking him when it is his turn, and insisting that there is no problem with the boy. The mother is very concerned. She doesn't want him to become dangerous to society, or ruin her other children's childhood.

My other co-workers and I don't know how she can even function day to day. Her life looks like a nightmare, and she is just sleepwalking through it. :scared:
 

Odyssey

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Most of the people I know had children because of an "oops" situation. Though with all the birth control options that are out there I really can't imagine why so many "oopses" happen so frequently. Folks seem to give as little consideration to having a child as they do to jumping into bed with someone. I consider it highly rude to bring a new life into a situation where the parents' lives aren't so great. If you're gonna struggle do it on your own. Don't bring a baby into it to just compound the issue. But then again, there is mechanicalness and sleep and ignorance regarding the seriousness of the parenthood.

When I was younger I wanted children for the typical reasons though I never wanted to be a single parent if I could help it. I never married and later after working in the public schools as a school-based therapist I completely ruled out the option of having children married or not. The kids were suffering not through any fault of their own but because of their parents and the poor decisions they made, etc., etc. It's just not cool to visit a 9 year old in the psych ward due to suicidal ideation. There are far too many ways to ruin a child and I didn't want to be responsible for causing even one moment of unhappiness to any child of mine. I also didn't think I posessed the emotional expressiveness and nurturing that a child requires.

And these days there are so many additional reasons not to have children besides the parents' level of being. TV, bad food, detachment from nature, video games, school, psychopaths, global catastrophes... If I were a parent I don't think I could take the worry.
 

seek10

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JenGen said:
One thing I will never do in this forum is to tell anyone that disagrees with my point of view, and some do, is to leave. Everyone who has disagreed is entitled to do so. Like Laura, I have posted, and lay myself open to criticism. My opinion was indeed strong and the responses equally so. Take it for what it's worth.
Probably George Carlin can explain you the point you are not getting here

_http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/george-carlin-conservative-hypocrisy-abor
 

Andromeda

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It would just be totally insane to think it's a good idea to bring a child into the world of today. I completely and personally understand the biological urge and societal pressures to procreate, but any halfway intelligent person who is actually concerned about the future their child would face, would understand that it's a very small sacrifice to deny those pressures compared to pretty much sacrificing your own child and insuring his suffering because of narcissistic desires and chemical drives.

20 years ago it might have been a little different - there was still a glimmer of hope and the pathological nature of our system wasn't quite as obvious as it is today. But, even those who don't totally understand the rampant pathology of today or see the possibility of an imminent catastrophe can agree that the world needs fixin' more than it needs children. And yeah, I know, it really isn't obvious to most people - but it should be! :headbash: If anyone genuinely cares about the continuance of humanity, the children of the world, or has any love for life, they should work on creating a safe and healthy environment for babies BEFORE having them. It just makes sense people.
 

Laura

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seek10 said:
Probably George Carlin can explain you the point you are not getting here

_http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/george-carlin-conservative-hypocrisy-abor
I reckon, according to some people, George must be a Nazi too. :evil:
 
S

Sirius

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In addition to what Andromeda said about creating a healthy environment before getting pregnant, it is actually quite that: People do not prepare nor do they know how and what. If you consider all the poisons and bad genes and all that entering their offspring due to carelessness, the future might be rather unfortunate for the next generation(s).

For instance, does an average woman consider detoxing mercury for two years before entering the stage of pregnancy or similar and related cleansing? The result can be quite disastrous. These problems have already surfaced, e.g. autism, allergies, psychological problems, etc. in children.
Nowadays most children will be raised and born within a totally EMF-polluted, GMO-polluted and food-poisoned environment where fancy words will change nothing. Children have no chance to escape that even for a minute. Which genetic damage and deceases will result in later years and carried over to subsequent generations cannot be foreseen.

All of those aspects are hardly being considered nor seen by deeply asleep people who, for the most part, seek merely a space extension for the purpose of depositing psychological garbage (as already described by Mr. Scott). Though it must be distinguished here a bit. Some women get pregnant with 14, others with 34. As always, there are those people who couldn't otherwise because they couldn't, meaning they haven't had any control over their lives. So things should no be overly generalised but rather generalities analysed.

The bottom line is, getting pregnant these days is simply a risky matter. It equals to setting out a baby in a jungle.
 

sitting

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I think if people were to suddenly see the reality for what it is, they would, en masse, immediately stop having children.
The Cathars believed they saw the true nature of reality and thus were against having children.
 

sitting

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In Asian cultures, having children means having assurance that someone will be there to take care of aging parents eventually. This sense of obligation on the part of the young runs very strong.
 

Andromeda

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Sirius said:
For instance, does an average woman consider detoxing mercury for two years before entering the stage of pregnancy or similar and related cleansing? The result can be quite disastrous. These problems have already surfaced, e.g. autism, allergies, psychological problems, etc. in children.
Nowadays most children will be raised and born within a totally EMF-polluted, GMO-polluted and food-poisoned environment where fancy words will change nothing. Children have no chance to escape that even for a minute. Which genetic damage and deceases will result in later years and carried over to subsequent generations cannot be foreseen.

All of those aspects are hardly being considered nor seen by deeply asleep people who, for the most part, seek merely a space extension for the purpose of depositing psychological garbage (as already described by Mr. Scott).
Yeah, and there are a myriad of other problems beside those very important ones. As highly unlikely as it is, even if your child is perfectly healthy and you're a halfway balanced person, what about education and wider socialization? Most schools just torture kids and prepare them only to be workers or soldiers. How likely is it that a child will find a decent psychologically healthy social group? What happens if when the child turn 18 he is forced to go fight an unjust war and die for nothing?
 

Miss.K

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lwu02eb said:
What is wrong with adopting or fostering children? If indeed, you are so very enamoured with dealing with the hard issues in life then here is one very good option for you. There are so many children in need already, born thoughtlessly and that go on to suffer terribly as a result. If you feel so strongly about this I would suggest this course of action for you, rather than lambasting others for their true compassion.
Couldn't agree more, why not care for some of the children already in the world, who are in need of love and care


Mr. Scott said:
How many people have babies because they want to narcissistically create a perfect little "Mini Me"? And there can be a sort of "joint narcissism", where the parents seem to want a child because it will be the perfect blend of what is best in both partners (never mind that short of genetic engineering, this isn't possible to determine beforehand).
Yes, like a child is the perfect accesory, like a really nice handbag.


Mr. Scott said:
Why do so many couples feel that without a child or children, their lives are meaningless?
Yes, children bring instant meaning, and I find it rather selfish to want such a little person to carry that weight on their shoulders.

I don't have children, and though I briefly tried to get pregnant at some point (due to female hormones and wanting to be normal and happy, and have instant meaning), the reason for not having tried harder is out of love for them.
I do however feel sad that I haven't found my life and the world, a safe place for children, as (apart from worrying a lot about them) it would be absolutely wonderful
 
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