Session 20 August 2011
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
François said:
And some of my closest friends are French and we talk about this all the time. We are sick of nationalities and the programmed way each government "raises" their people to be "good and obedient little citizens."
In France, Truth is not a value. Being "intellectual" and gaining control in an intellectual way is considered to be high culture. At the same time, the French hate almost everyone, including themselves, because they have been sent two messages constantly since birth: 1)you are no good/nothing if you are not able to regurgitate obscure literary references, argue both sides of a question effectively, and believe nothing; 2)you are French and are therefore a member of the finest culture in the world with the best manners, best food, best everything...
Now, what do you think that is going to do to a person, especially when it is started at about age 3?
Don Diego
Jedi Master
Wow the last exchange has provoked a BIG "aha moment" :O
As I'm french too, I dare to admit that I strongly tend to argue mechanically just like if a discussion was a chess play, just fun ...A lot to think about henceforth
Ailen thanks, your 2000th post hit the bull's eye! ;)
As I'm french too, I dare to admit that I strongly tend to argue mechanically just like if a discussion was a chess play, just fun ...A lot to think about henceforth
Ailen thanks, your 2000th post hit the bull's eye! ;)
François said:
Then you should be used to the frank and open way we talk and how much we detest fake "good manners" that cover up hypocrisy. That is, some of us.
You should also have figured out that Truth is a very high value in Anglo-Saxon culture and arguing without FACTS is considered to be rude.
The point is: this is an international forum and every nationality/culture has their own quirks and we have to deal with them and try to help people understand each other, help them learn how to find truth and be sincere when it is appropriate. The French and Americans are sometimes the hardest to get through to since, as I noted, the Americans are usually under-educated and proud of it and the French are usually over-educated and proud of it. In the end, it is ego on both sides.
Don Diego said:
And you probably have never realized that when you do this with a Brit or American, it is considered extremely rude.
I know that the French can sit down to dinner for hours and arguments can rage throughout the meal, often with the arguers changing sides half way through. At the end, they all laugh and think it was great fun.
It's NOT FUN to a Brit or an American. It's rude and spoils the dinner. That's just the way we are brought up. From infancy.
Don Diego said:
Well, it took me awhile to figure out what was going on and I had to read some books to get it sorted.
Most Anglo-Saxon types are taught from early childhood that it is rude to contradict another person and mealtimes are supposed to be pleasant with nice talk to one another so as to better digest food. People have discussions, not debates. They bring in facts - and try to include all of them - and not opinions unless clearly stated as such and usually apologetically.
Yes, there are debate teams in schools, but it is understood to be a competitive activity like a sport, or something that prepares a person to go into politics, definitely not something to do in your own home.
I was brought up in the Southern U.S. which is even stricter about rules of hospitality. Where I come from, if a normal French person came to dinner and behaved as they do in France as a dinner guest (and is considered normal there), they would NEVER be invited back.
Of course, this is just generalizing things; there are place and event and people specific differences everywhere. I watched "Saturday Night Fever" recently for the first time and I was absolutely SHOCKED. It was like watching people who are animals that look like humans. But I guess that is normal in many places in the U.S.
François said:
Why would you say it is 'indecent discourse'? Have you considered that what she said might be true? Are you able to look at what she said without rejecting it because it perhaps offends your nationalistic pride or perhaps because it offends you personally because you identify strongly with being French? True nationalism and patriotism is about being interested in one's country, its people and the characteristics that make them different from other nations. It is not about engaging in a priori defence of ones nation and nationality.
Laura said:
That explains why I got so frustrated at uni with the French theorists who are so idolized by the postmodern crowd, even in the UK where I studied. I spent my whole PhD arguing with one in particular (Michel Foucault). The most annoying thing was how much energy he and those like him spent writing pages and pages of tongue-twisters to explain ideas that could have been spelt out in a couple of paragraphs. Sometimes I would read a whole page and break out in laughter realizing that either I hadn't understood a single word or it didn't mean anything at all! It took me two years to understand what he really meant, and when I finally got it I went 'well why didn't you just say so in the first place!!'
Mental masturbation techniques indeed.
François
Jedi
Well, I hesitate to add a new post, as I have already sent a lof of posts noisy...
But for answering to you, Perceval :
I say 'indecent' and wish not to comment a lot, because French people could be offend in reading Adaryn's post.
Personally I am not shocked, and I do not reject the message, I understand the meaning, but I will do not post this kind of message which could hurt the nationalistic pride -justified or not justified - of somebody.
I do not identified myself as being French first, but as being loving Classical Music, and even if Classical Music is not worldwide known, it 'breaks the frontiers' of my native country in my mind. And to say a little more I like the way of living in Nordic countries where I would like to be born...
(Bach is not French, ... Grieg is not French, Sibelius is not French ....and I like a lot Grieg Piano Concerto and Sibelius Violin Concerto...)
But for answering to you, Perceval :
I say 'indecent' and wish not to comment a lot, because French people could be offend in reading Adaryn's post.
Personally I am not shocked, and I do not reject the message, I understand the meaning, but I will do not post this kind of message which could hurt the nationalistic pride -justified or not justified - of somebody.
I do not identified myself as being French first, but as being loving Classical Music, and even if Classical Music is not worldwide known, it 'breaks the frontiers' of my native country in my mind. And to say a little more I like the way of living in Nordic countries where I would like to be born...
(Bach is not French, ... Grieg is not French, Sibelius is not French ....and I like a lot Grieg Piano Concerto and Sibelius Violin Concerto...)
cubbex
The Living Force
dugdeep said:
HELL YEAH!I ask myself if I was always saving me from some type of food, for example I'm lactose intolerant, I don't like bread I don't like so much dairy products and veggies, I like a lot meat, eggs, and some fruits. And I mean, that's not enough but it is fun, when I read about eating veggies I was reluctant to the idea, when I read that we needed to eat pork I was taking my spear out of my closet.
François said:
Well then, there is something you should know about this forum. Generally speaking, the truth of a matter is prized about all else (that's why most of us are here) and it cannot be relegated to second place in favor of the illusions that someone might have (or the offense they may take), especially over something as relatively insignificant as their identification with their nationality. Note that I do not say that we deliberately insult someone by disparaging their nation etc but rather that we seek to find the truth about such things, and if the truth is offensive to that person, then their problem is with the truth, not with the person who simply presents it.
EGVG
Dagobah Resident
Prometeo said:dugdeep said:
I ask myself if I was always saving me from some type of food, for example I'm lactose intolerant, I don't like bread I don't like so much dairy products and veggies, I like a lot meat, eggs, and some fruits. And I mean, that's not enough but it is fun, when I read about eating veggies I was reluctant to the idea, when I read that we needed to eat pork I was taking my spear out of my closet.
Maybe it's just your natural human instinc that is telling you the pork and fat way is the correct one. I feel more happy and secure about the being I think I'am, since I understood that meat and fat is what my body is made to function on. :)
