Session 20 August 2011

[mkrnhr]

Hello François,

There is a difference between what we do/are and what we think or say we do/are. There is no shame about it, we all do that before we reach the real I. That's part of the process. If we were perferct we would not need to learn.

You are on the defensive even though nobody's attacking you. Just take some time to re-read your reactions. The key here is "reaction". You react to what others say without taking time to consider what can be learned from the discussion.

It is not about criticizing, it is about observing. And what we observe, is how the official culture has influenced the mentality and psychology of the people. I said once that the Coliseum in Roma seemed to be a morbid place, and no italian forum member identified with that place. Even the italian people with whom i was there found it interresting and went discussing the historical reasons or whatever. I think i couldn't say that about Paris.

I have my own experience with Paris and the the experience of French friends who lived in Paris for years and also with the French culture in general because I've been exposed to it since my childhood through my father who is a "fan" and a pure product of the French school. All what has been said here joins my personal experience and observations. At the university I have been in contact with students from many nationalities and the distinction is quite clear. Here I am since the beginning of this week in some international facility where many nationalities are represented. Guess who are the ones who are isolated and do not talk/salute any other? Yes you guessed :) I do not criticize, i just read and learn. Because what we observe in others, or what others observe in others, or in us, that's what helps us to learn and understand, and hopefully to evolve.

 

[Cosmos]

François you are relatively new here and when others here tell you something it's maybe becouse they have studied and worked more on them selfs and on the outside then you at the moment.
I get the impression that you have at least one programm running that tells you "I must be right".

you are in the beginning of learning what this forum is all about , that means that you are making assumptions from a lack of self/-knowlege and think you are right.

I can relate to that. In the beginning of my interaction with this forum I had similar assumptions about many things here, becouse I simply didn't understood the context and myself well enough.

people here gave you tools to understand yourself and the outside better. you can chose to ignore it or to come down and start to look at it more closly without that much emotionality, you maybe suprised how different all can look.

it's your choise.

 

[Laura]

Laura,

This is false. I was intentionally caricatural.

I was waiting this kind of answer.

And not a simple answer, but several answers posted by moderators saying the same in different manners to well accuse the culprit and show him with finger.

In short, still being typically schizoidally French and totally insincere and hypocritical.

 

[Laura]

Laura,

This is an example of my point that many French men have been turned into pseudo schizoidal psychopaths.

You deduce that regarding me, based on what I have posted, just words... (even if there is meaning inside)

It seems to make a 'medical' diagnostic
and say : you are a pseudo schizoidal psychopath
you have to know better the person and have made a close and complete examination,
you extrapolate too easily, and I am realizing this now, I find this terrible...

Please read the exact words I used and don't second guess or read things into them that are not there. Saying that a style of speaking is an example of a point is NOT a medical diagnosis.

What I can say about YOU based on your public behavior here is that you have shown yourself to be a repulsive person that I would not care to invite to my home.

 

[sleepermustawaken]

Thanks to ALL at the Chateau for sharing this recent session.

And, sorry for posting sooo late as to get into the "French" connection of this thread.

I myself being amassed by 3-4 cultures do see the little "I' s of those cultures and for sure they are asserting how one is "better" than the other or how one may have historic significance over the other -though I am only searching for the true " I am " (as I believe we all are) .


Thanks again and hope the Chateau folks get restfull sleep.

 

[Windmill knight]

Hello François,

...

You are on the defensive even though nobody's attacking you. Just take some time to re-read your reactions. The key here is "reaction". You react to what others say without taking time to consider what can be learned from the discussion.

Indeed.

Because you are on the defensive and very emotionally identified with French/Parisian culture, you have been missing the point repeatedly and thinking in black or white terms. As an exercise, I suggest that next time you feel the impulse of replying, you wait 24 hours before doing so, and see if your perspective changes.

 

[Laura]

I'm not sure if you read the forum guidelines, Francois; it seems that you didn't. If you did, and you still behaved the way you have, writing the way you have, then, as I said, you are not a person I would want to invite into my home.

Shocking? Yes. True? Yes. But truth is not a value in France; fake, smarmy "good manners" are more important.

This is a problem that affects societies all over the world, however, not just France. Interestingly, one of your countrywomen addresses the problem directly:

Perverse abusiveness fascinates, seduces, and terrifies. We sometimes envy abusive individuals because we imagine them to be endowed with a superior strength that will always make them winners. They do, in fact, know how to naturally manipulate, and this appears to give them the upper hand, whether in business or in politics. Fear makes us instinctively gravitate toward them rather than away from them: survival of the fittest.

The most admired individuals are those who enjoy themselves the most and suffer the least. In any case, we don't take their victims, who seem weak and dense, seriously, and under the guise of respecting another's freedom, we become blind to destructive situations.

In fact, this "tolerance" prevents us from interfering in the actions and opinions of others, even when these actions and opinions are out of line or morally reprehensible.

We also weirdly indulge the lies and "spin" of those in power. The end justifies the means.

To what degree is this acceptable? Don't we, out of indifference, risk becoming accomplices in this process by losing our principles and sense of limits? Real tolerance means examining and weighing values.

This type of aggression, however, lays traps in the psychic domain of another person and is allowed to develop because of tolerance within our current socio-cultural context. Our era refuses to establish absolute standards of behavior. We automatically set limits on abusive behaviors when we LABEL them as such; but in our society, labeling is likened to intent to censure. We have abandoned the moral constraints that once constituted a code of civility which allowed us to say "That just isn't done!" We only become indignant when facts are made public, worked over and magnified by the media. [...]

Even psychiatrists hesitate to use the term "abuse"'; when they do, it's to express either their powerlessness to intervene or their fascination with the abuser's methods. [...]

[Psychopathy] arises from dispassionate rationality combined with an incapacity to respect others as human beings. Some [psychopaths] commit crimes for which they are judged, but most use charm and their adaptive powers to clear themselves a path in society, leaving behind a trail of wounded souls and devastated lives. ... We have all been fooled by abusive human beings who passed themselves off as victims. They fulfilled our expectations in order the better to seduce us. ...

We subsequently feel betrayed and humiliated when, in their search for power, they show their true colors. This explains the reluctance of some psychiatrists to expose them. Psychiatrists say to each other, "Watch out, he's a [psychopath]", the implication being "This could be dangerous," and also, "There's nothing that can be done." We then give up on helping the victim.

Designating [psychopathy] is certainly a serious matter... whether the subject is serial killing or perverse abusiveness, the matter remains one of predatory behavior: an act consisting in the appropriation of another person's life.

The word "perverse" shocks and unsettles. It corresponds to a value judgment, and psychoanalysts refuse to pronounce value judgments. Is that sufficient reason to accept what goes on? A more serious omission lies in not labeling abuse, because the victim then remains defenseless...

Victims are often not heard when they seek help. Instead, analysts advise them to assess their conscious or unconscious responsibility for the attack upon them. ... Emotional abusers directly endanger their victims; indirectly, they lead those around them to lose sight of their moral guideposts and to believe that freewheeling behaviors at the expense of others are the norm. {Dr. Marie-France Hirigoyen, Stalking the Soul}

Marie-France has a hard time dealing with the word and concept of psychopathy, however. She describes them, describes what they do, even suggests that they MAY be incurable, but French psychiatry and psychology is so controlled by Freud that she just can't take the obvious step and speak it out loud.

 

[François]

Laura,

This is false. I was intentionally caricatural.

I was waiting this kind of answer.

And not a simple answer, but several answers posted by moderators saying the same in different manners to well accuse the culprit and show him with finger.

In short, still being typically schizoidally French and totally insincere and hypocritical.

This is evident that saying 'destroy Paris...bomb on my head' is caricatural, where is the link with insincere and hypocritical?


I understand what you say, Pashalis and mkrnhr : this is said clear, I agree with that. I am perfectly aware about all the issues you say. I am concerned. I am not very emotionally attached to my native country presently. But currently I have to live here, and do the best not to generate more issues...

But sincerely, based on what I say deduce that I am typically schizoidally French and totally insincere and hypocritical is degrading me.

Now yes I am confused, because I had a high feeling on the forum and to be considered as a 'shit', just because I do not say in the right way. And all the people who know me well never say that I am hypocritical...

 

[Oxajil]

So to change the topic slightly, I had a thought about this last night and it seemed to me that the above has implications as to why those who practice the dark arts involve the drinking of human blood etc. in their rituals( i.e Skull & Bones?). If eating animal flesh & blood is more potent than veggies - consider how much stronger (although extremely taboo and repugnant to "civilized" society) consuming human flesh & blood would be.

Also in primitive societies it was sometimes the practice of a warrior to eat the organs of a vanquished foe - thereby supposedly acquiring the strength of the defeated enemy. I see where this comes from now.

I think that the original ancient knowledge was that animal blood and flesh would "increase strength" or simply that it is the most natural food fitted for man or something like that. And that later the pathological types changed it to eating humans as being more powerful. I think it's psychologically (and physically) unnatural for humans to eat one another, but if you have a psychopath with a different brain, they won't feel the resistance we would feel, because they simply can't and won't. So they change whatever knowledge comes to their paths and fold it in such a way that would be "normal" and more ''interesting'' to them. But I do think that normal people could be influenced and manipulated with so bad, that they could follow the same path. I wonder what eating human flesh and blood would do to a human body, it probably would turn people into monsters and maybe even activate the wrong genes (Neanderthal genes?), but these are just some thoughts, I don't know.

Talking about animal blood, I'm thinking about trying some blood sausages...

 

[François]

I'm not sure if you read the forum guidelines, Francois; it seems that you didn't. If you did, and you still behaved the way you have, writing the way you have, then, as I said, you are not a person I would want to invite into my home.

I understand.

I was sincere.

I am not hypocritical.

This is your forum, your data. Feel free to exclude me.

I am sincerely sad about all that, but this life.

 

[Denis]

I'm not sure if you read the forum guidelines, Francois; it seems that you didn't. If you did, and you still behaved the way you have, writing the way you have, then, as I said, you are not a person I would want to invite into my home.

I understand.

I was sincere.

I am not hypocritical.

This is your forum, your data. Feel free to exclude me.

I am sincerely sad about all that, but this life.

Hi François.

Why don't you listen to Windmill knight's advice and refrain from posting for 24 hours? Take some time to sort out your emotions and contemplate on your thoughts, words and actions. I think it would do you good. Please understand that people here are trying to help you, no one is insulting you- don't confuse constructive criticism with insults.

 

[Adaryn]

I'm not sure if you read the forum guidelines, Francois; it seems that you didn't. If you did, and you still behaved the way you have, writing the way you have, then, as I said, you are not a person I would want to invite into my home.

I understand.

I was sincere.

I am not hypocritical.

This is your forum, your data. Feel free to exclude me.

I am sincerely sad about all that, but this life.

Hi François.

Why don't you listen to Windmill knight's advice and refrain from posting for 24 hours? Take some time to sort out your emotions and contemplate on your thoughts, words and actions. I think it would do you good. Please understand that people here are trying to help you, no one is insulting you- don't confuse constructive criticism with insults.

Yes. And your behaviour/programming/cultural background is not YOU, it's not who you are, it's not supposed to define you.

 

[Cosmos]

I understand what you say, Pashalis and mkrnhr : this is said clear, I agree with that. I am perfectly aware about all the issues you say.

It does not look like you understood.

But sincerely, based on what I say deduce that I am typically schizoidally French and totally insincere and hypocritical is degrading me.

let me repeat what Laura said:

Please read the exact words I used and don't second guess or read things into them that are not there. Saying that a style of speaking is an example of a point is NOT a medical diagnosis.

What I can say about YOU based on your public behavior here is that you have shown yourself to be a repulsive person that I would not care to invite to my home.

nobody has said that you are something like that it is only a conclusion that can be drawn when somebody reads all you have written so far. It is a possibility becouse of the evidence that you have presented in your posts, it doesn't mean it is that way

Now yes I am confused, because I had a high feeling on the forum and to be considered as a '-shite-', just because I do not say in the right way. And all the people who know me well never say that I am hypocritical...

again:

you are in the beginning of learning what this forum is all about , that means that you are making assumptions from a lack of self/-knowlege and think you are right.

I can relate to that. In the beginning of my interaction with this forum I had similar assumptions about many things here, becouse I simply didn't understood the context and myself well enough.

people here gave you tools to understand yourself and the outside better. you can chose to ignore it or to come down and start to look at it more closly without that much emotionality, you maybe suprised how different all can look.

 

[Gawan]

Marie-France has a hard time dealing with the word and concept of psychopathy, however. She describes them, describes what they do, even suggests that they MAY be incurable, but French psychiatry and psychology is so controlled by Freud that she just can't take the obvious step and speak it out loud.

I had a similar thought about Freud, France and the overall society, cause I started some days ago Michel Onfrays book: Le Crepuscule D'une Idole Fl (it is unfortunately not available in English yet it seems :( ), where the author mentions the influence of Freud on the culture and pupils. And in the same way brings up, Cleckleys book: Caricature of love and the influence of (sick) famous people on the culture and after that Lobazcewskis book and his example about Marx for example that people reading this kind of literature and don't know that even this man was pathological.

 

[Chu]

I understand.

I was sincere.

I am not hypocritical.

This is your forum, your data. Feel free to exclude me.

I am sincerely sad about all that, but this life.

I think you don't realize how many contradictions there are in your posts in this thread. On one, you agree, on the next one you scream, on the next one you are obnoxious, etc. So, there can't be one "I" that is sincere, not hypocritical, etc.

The point is, that French or not French, your posts continue to be noise and draining, and even if you weren't French, these things would have been pointed out to you here. This is not about criticicing the French. It is about studying human beings. It just so happens that France was one of the topics, but it could have been any other country.

You are angry because we are mostly discussing what is wrong with the French culture. But everybody knows the good things!! Actually, one of the things that are wrong with the French is that very often, they only see the good things! So I see no point in talking about them in the context of this discussion. But you seem unable to understand the goal of it all. We have tried to share our observations, but you seem to be more interested in what YOU (which You?) think. So, why are you here, anyway?