Session 20 September 2014

[Voyageur]

Was just about to post the following, however what was just posted above lays things out extremely well.

Here is my 2 cents Mooseheart,

Firstly, just to answer one of your questions, to "quote" someone, you can either hit "insert quote" and than modify it as need be, or you can copy the desired text and center it between (Q is standing in for Quote for this example) [Q] add text [/Q] and, by adding [Q=name] it will further define who it was from.

Fwiw, there are many people here, and as others have said, one may be able to answer you better than another, so patients is often required as people are engaged in other things.

Not to be disrespectful, however, in you initiating post you clearly said:

...I'm sorry, but I lead a busy active life, I cannot sit and read volumes of informationor years worth of transcripts.

Indeed, as most people here also are extremely busy. The reason many people came here was because of their desire to learn something about themselves and objective reality around them. So for many, it became a step by step process that never ends. You are where you are and someone else is where they are. If you carefully examine how what you said might come across to another, who may also be very busy, yet they took the time to read many of the suggested works (which goes well beyond the wave et al). Thus, what you said might be construed as coming across as a little demanding of their time, which resulted in your firm stance of not getting what you asked for (see above by G). This is especially so while acknowledging your not interested in reading, you just want a "blog" type summary, which is not what this forum is. If this forum is not for you, no worries, you will find something out there. If you are truly interested in this forum and making efforts and want help, people will give it in many different ways and give it they do.

The sessions transcripts are full of learning curves being made by those attending. Isn't the act of teaching to weed out that information and provide the information in a more simplified/shortened method? I did not come here to sit through the "class sessions". I came here for a summary of the information by those who learned through them.

As you may see again from the above, it seems you came here not to make any real effort, it was for a very specific reason only, and you clearly state you are not willing to sift through information in a step by step fashion. Although a summery may well be adequate for certain subjects, the history of the world, as example and as best as it can be pieced together, is not one of those, nor is the depth and breadth of esoteric or cognitive sciences. So you see, this is not a dispensary of antibiotic's and band aids, as you cited; it just can't work that way here.

One last thing, to my thinking, this is not a site of dedicated teachers who happen to know all, so you won't find that here if that is what is being sought; although some here are excellent with help and knowledge by reason of education, greater participation and understanding. This site, osit, is dedicated to each and all helping one another to learn and the first ingredient is a willingness to learn. As the C's say, life is religion, its lessons and, it's all learned in a big classroom. In this respect, people engage here are all students learning together, not teachers per se.

Hope you can find what your looking for.

 

[Alana]

I understand what you mean about learning about the work in it's entirety. One cannot become a doctor without first learning the basics and working up from there. I get it. But with all due respect, I do not plan to be a doctor. I am the patient. I came here to ask a question about a certain portion of the work, not to become an expert in your field. Just the same way that I enter a doctors office for answers to questions that I need at the time. If the doctor were to tell me to go study for 10 years like they did, there is a distinct possibility that I could die before I find the answer I need.

Maybe all I need from the doctor is some anti-biotic and a band aid. In this sense, the doctor has not helped me on any level. While you do not plan to give out band aids on this forum, think of all the people a doctor helps every day, and then compare that to the people that you shoo away.

You've already got advice from others, but I'd like to point out one more thing based on your analogy above: even if you are not here to stay and are just looking for the right antibiotic, that is not what Truth Warrior was offering. She received the replies she did because what she is promoting is not objectively or scientifically true. I might annoy you more with my suggestion for more reading, but do have a look at Dr Mate's When the Body says No and Wilson's The Adaptive Unconscious to understand how "group meditation on compassion and spreading it around the world" is not only not going to work, but might actually bring the opposite results than what the practitioners consciously expect. Both books are full of the latest research into cognitive/social/neuro-psychology, etc.

Like you, some here are also very new to this work, and some of us even if we have been here for a while are still trying to piece everything together and apply it. But if we see anything promoted that our research has proved already to be unhealthy or incorrect, it is our responsibility to point it out. So even if someone is actively looking for the wrong advice, for whatever reason, they will have to look for it someplace else, because the vast majority of the people here, do not.

 

[shellycheval]

mooseheart

I'm sorry, but I lead a busy active life, I cannot sit and read volumes of information or years worth of transcripts.

The sessions transcripts are full of learning curves being made by those attending. Isn't the act of teaching to weed out that information and provide the information in a more simplified/shortened method? I did not come here to sit through the "class sessions". I came here for a summary of the information by those who learned through them.

Most blogs I read have individuals who comb through volumes of information and then condense it down into smaller portions making it easier for their readers to understand their points. This forum seems to do the opposite. I feel as if they are trying to do a form of brainwashing. It feels more like the Borg from Star Trek saying "Read our information so that you may be assimilated."

I'm not trying to be a troll, just letting you know what it's like for someone new to this forum, but take it as you will.

We know what it is like to be new to this information.

There is a very simple "test" to see if this is the Forum for you. Most of us here were attracted by some bit of information that we found fascinating, so we dug around for more. When we found The Wave Series we were enthralled. Its pull was/is like gravity. Once we started reading, we couldn't stop. We read every free moment our busy jobs, families, personal lives permitted. We had visceral reactions to the material--literally hearts racing and sweat. Like the character Neo in The Matrix we'd been down many paths before and knew the dead-ends to which they led. We wanted Truth and objective reality--even when it made us want to puke at times and recoil in horror--we persevered. We persevered because we had NO where else to go. Enough of the Veil had been lifted--enough of the red pill was digested, to reveal the costs of knowing objective reality--that we must let go of all our "sacred cows" and our most dearly held illusions about the world, and most importantly, our illusions about ourselves.

The Universe demands balance--we cannot learn without the experience of internalizing information on a personal level. I am a teacher by profession and have been for 22 years; I know what it looks like when "the light comes on" for a student and I know what it looks like when a student retains data on a superficial level to pass the course--it doesn't stick and most of all they are not changed by it--they haven't truly learned. The acquisition of real knowledge creates a fundamental, visceral, mental, spiritual change in an organism and causes it to react and DO life differently. Such knowledge cannot be bought at any price--it can only be earned. It is the alchemical gold so often sought for but so rarely found.
We are in the process of learning; we make mistakes; we learn more and try again--it is often painful, difficult, and endless, but we listen and learn from each other as well as doing our own Work. If you are not driven by a need to know Truth--regardless of the cost and the suffering, as well as the amazing benefits--then this is not the Forum for you. It is a free-will Universe after all.

To quote a text that has some wisdom in it even if it is too often used to promote folly:

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate,
and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go in there at:
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Good Luck and best wishes in your search.
shellycheval

 

[Chu]

I understand what you mean about learning about the work in it's entirety. One cannot become a doctor without first learning the basics and working up from there. I get it. But with all due respect, I do not plan to be a doctor. I am the patient. I came here to ask a question about a certain portion of the work, not to become an expert in your field. Just the same way that I enter a doctors office for answers to questions that I need at the time. If the doctor were to tell me to go study for 10 years like they did, there is a distinct possibility that I could die before I find the answer I need.

Maybe all I need from the doctor is some anti-biotic and a band aid. In this sense, the doctor has not helped me on any level. While you do not plan to give out band aids on this forum, think of all the people a doctor helps every day, and then compare that to the people that you shoo away.

You've already got advice from others, but I'd like to point out one more thing based on your analogy above: even if you are not here to stay and are just looking for the right antibiotic, that is not what Truth Warrior was offering.

Indeed. And I would dare to guess that your doctor analogy could explain the confusion. You see, we do not "advertise" our work like a doctor would. Our forum guidelines are very specific, and we don't promise to give summaries, or other things that many other forums out there offer. We have seen how often, those "summaries" are corrupted, and don't allow people to learn how to really think for themselves. Some people aren't interested in doing a lot of research, and therefore, those other forums can be good for them. But what we do here is a bit different. So, you not getting those summaries has nothing to do with people not wanting to share, explain, or thinking they are superior. It has basically more to do with the whole purpose of this forum: working on the self (a big part of which we consider to be research, reading, thinking critically, and "no free lunch", "no pain no gain", etc.). We don't claim that it's THE best or only way. It's just our way.

She received the replies she did because what she is promoting is not objectively or scientifically true.

Yes. Unlike you who said what you felt and what you weren't really willing to do (which probably means this forum is not for you), Truth Warrior said she HAD read the material. So, we took her word for it. And the questions she asked showed that if she had, then she was not really on board (different path?). When she received her replies, she took it as people being defensive or taking it personally, or her being misunderstood, which is fairly common when people are actually projecting what they feel themselves, and not willing to take feedback on. She also contradicted herself several times.

For example, first she wrote:

What can be done, if anything, to help the people who are suffering now? How can we STOP Ebola? Are there "safe areas" from which to work? Are there suggestions for things we all can do to prevent mandatory vaccination programs? Might group meditations help to keep comets from hitting the planet? Or is that even a good idea? Might a group meditation actually put a stop to the Ebola virus if enough of us are focused on it?

then:

Sending "love and light," or whatever you wish to call it, to those who might desire a little help is NOT an STS activity. If a group meditation somehow gives a little extra peace to someone who just watched their entire family die of Ebola, then I'm all for it. (If you don't believe this works, then the STS question is moot, anyway.)

And all throughout her posts, she insisted on her proposal not being an STS action, while we tried to explain why it was.

Then, she showed that she really wasn't familiar with "the rules" around here:

_http://istpp.org/crime_prevention/

Try Google for more.

Frankly, I'm surprised no one here has heard of this study.

She didn't even bother to check, and others had to point this out.

She was actually given "summaries" (short quotes) in order to make her job easier, but she replied with arguments that indicate she really has very different ideas that she wants to teach.

Yes, all that was very interesting. I remember reading it, and I agree with it.

The problem here, I believe, is that the C's are talking about a kind of codependency, a kind of "here, let me do that FOR you whether you want it or not" kind of behavior. This is not what I'm talking about.

But the point several of us tried to make is that even if it may not look like that on the surface, what she proposes amounts to the same: STS. She was nitpicking, but missing the entire point.

It's tedious going around in circles on a topic that has little to do with what I posted.

It has a lot to do with it, but she wanted a specific answer that we cannot give based on our experience.

Whether you think a meditation group is useful or not, the gist of my post was that the resource of the C's could be used much better than it is now. I based this on the final comment made by the C's themselves.

Yet again, she shows that she has filtered some information out of even the last sessions. So, she probably belongs to another "club". Nothing wrong with that. It's not about one forum being more advanced than another. It's just not the way we work around here.

Perhaps thinking about another analogy helps:

Imagine a Bridge club. Now, Bridge is a complicated game, and people in that club take it seriously. They learn the rules and practice diligently. There is another club for people who see it more like a hobby. But this group in particular studies the rules, analyzes the philosophy behind them, expands on new tactics, etc. They see the game in the same way and enjoy interacting together. they have a common language.

But one day person A comes along, and joins in. She asks for a quick summary so that she can start playing. Others tell her, "Hmm, we are working hard here, but you can go to this other club, and if Bridge really interests you down the road, you are welcome to join us." Person A then has choices and there is no misunderstanding.

Then person B comes along, and says: "I have read the rules and know how to play". "Excellent, welcome to the club, person B!" The minute after, person B says "I don't think you are playing right. We need to change the way we play this game". And she proposes new rules. Others look at each other, and say: "But the way you are proposing to change things is contradictory to the principles behind Bridge, and we like them, and have been playing like this for years and it works. And here's why." Person B says "Oh, I see I have offended you!" "It must be for a reason." "No," others say. "You are suggesting that we switch to Poker, but we want to play Bridge." Person B replies that that's not what she's saying, and quotes again the laws of Poker saying it would be a better use of the rules of the game. Person B can call this club a "cult", or say she understand why others would think they are, because "they all think alike". But the players in the group only share a language and a method, and you can see them holding different cards in their hands, making different moves, thinking about their paricular game, etc. Obviously, there is a problem, wouldn't you say? Poker players have their place, just not at a Bridge club.

Well, it's a bit simplified, but I think one can play around with this analogy a bit better. :)

 

[Nancy2feathers]

The customized table is a good idea but Laura can't lay on her tummy, it's too painful for her back.

In any case, she almost didn't sit today. She swam in cold water, spent a lot of time reading in her bedroom, alternating between a standing position (reading on a lectern) a laying on the side position (using a chaise longue). Both positions become really tiring after a while but sitting down is verboten!

On Monday or Tuesday, she should go for an X-ray to know the extent of the damage.

Things are slowly getting better but this injury is surely a pain in the a**.

Thanks for the update Pierre. You are all in my thoughts there at the Chateau. This must be so hard for Laura. I know Laura is in good hands with all of you there. I guess knowing the extent of the damage would better determine healing time and course of action? Big hugs to you all.

 

[Psalehesost]

[...] Dr Mate's When the Body says No and Wilson's The Adaptive Unconscious to understand how "group meditation on compassion and spreading it around the world" is not only not going to work, but might actually bring the opposite results than what the practitioners consciously expect. Both books are full of the latest research into cognitive/social/neuro-psychology, etc.

A small note: Wilson's book is actually titled Strangers to Ourselves. It is the forum thread that excerpts and discusses it that is named The Adaptive Unconscious.

 

[Chu]

Another thing is that actually, The Wave Series and The Secret History of the World series ARE summaries. They contain distilled and clear information from thousands of books. Sure, it's a BIG summary, but when you look at the research behind them, you're glad you don't have to read entire libraries in order to get the most important points of each book. If we were t condense them even more, then people would miss an big opportunity for learning and connecting ideas.

 

[Chu]

As a side note, I think it's pretty interesting that lately, with more sessions being available, we get posts like Truth Warrior's and others. She/he reminds me of someone else who used to participate in this forum until recently, I think.

Here are a few of her posts, in case anybody is interested, from a recent session thread:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,35908.msg520451.html#msg520451
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,35908.msg521177.html#msg521177
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,35908.msg520793.html#msg520793
(It's better to read the whole discussion to really see the parallels.)

This person also used to bring up questions/new ideas, and when people tried to explain things to her, she would say that she was misunderstood and get pretty defensive, subtly attacking the person who had tried to help. I don't know how she never realized how embarrassing it was that she kept saying she had read the material, yet her questions on several different threads reflected the contrary. I felt bad for her at times. She just couldn't see how she came across (unless she did and thought she could "convert us" to her distorted way of thinking anyway). Oh well, I guess it's fairly common, but I thought the similarities were interesting given that most examples are recent. And she's the one I can remember from the top of my head, but there were probably others.

 

[Lilou]

When I first came across the C's transcripts, I remember the exact date, November 5, 2008. And typing it now, just made the connection to "remember, remember the 5th of November" I spent every free moment I had reading thru every transcript. When that was finished, I found and read The Wave, The Adventures of Cassiopaea, and basically everything that was published at cassiopaea.org It took me about 6 months. In April 2009, I found the forum and spent another 4 months reading many threads before joining. So it really is up to the individual and if they feel the information is important enough to spend their time reading it.

For me, the information answered so many questions I had, that not reading it never crossed my mind. I felt I had stumbled upon a gold mine of information and I wanted to know and to understand. Taking this new information on board became a priority. Like everything else, it is a persons own choice to do or not to do. There are no free lunches.

 

[mooseheart]

Thank you very much for this:

Quote from Voyageur September 29, 2014
Q Firstly, just to answer one of your questions, to "quote" someone, you can either hit "insert quote" and than modify it as need be, or you can copy the desired text and center it between (Q is standing in for Quote for this example) [Q] add text [/Q] and, by adding [Q=name] it will further define who it was from. Q

I see an extreme contradiction to what is preached by the people of the forum to this particular C’s lesson:

Quote from Chu September 27, 2014, 11:15:29 PM
Q Q: (L) Okay, now [a correspondent writes and] says: “Laura brought up several comments about Love that confused me. I do not understand how giving love when not being asked could harm instead of improve.” Can you remark on this?
A: “Giving” love is not giving, in such a case.
Q: (L) So, if you give love when you have not been asked, you are NOT giving?
A: You are taking, as usual.
Q: (L) When you say you are “taking”, what are you taking?
A: Energy, à la STS.
Q: (L) How does it come that you are taking energy from someone by giving them love when not asked?
A: Because an STS vehicle does not learn to be an STO candidate by determining the needs of another.
Q: (L) I don’t understand how that means you are taking energy?
A: Because the act is then one of self-gratification. If one “gives” where there is no request, therefore no need, this is a free will violation! And besides, what other motivation could there possibly be in such a scenario?!? Think carefully and objectively about this.
Q: (L) My thought would be that, in such a scenario, that if one gives love to someone who has not asked or requested, that it seems to be a desire to change the other, i.e., a desire to control.
A: You got it!! Q

All that needs to be done in this circumstance is to change the word "love" to "information". Like this:

Q: (L) Okay, now [a correspondent writes and] says: “Laura brought up several comments about Information that confused me. I do not understand how giving information when not being asked could harm instead of improve.” Can you remark on this?
A: “Giving” information is not giving, in such a case.
Q: (L) So, if you give information when you have not been asked, you are NOT giving?
A: You are taking, as usual.
Q: (L) When you say you are “taking”, what are you taking?
A: Energy, à la STS.
Q: (L) How does it come that you are taking energy from someone by giving them information when not asked?
A: Because an STS vehicle does not learn to be an STO candidate BY DETERMINING THE NEEDS OF ANOTHER.
Q: (L) I don’t understand how that means you are taking energy?
A: Because the act is then one of self-gratification. If one “gives” where there is no request, therefore no need, THIS IS A FREE WILL VIOLATION! And besides, what other motivation could there possibly be in such a scenario?!? Think carefully and objectively about this.
Q: (L) My thought would be that, in such a scenario, that if one gives information to someone who has not asked or requested, that it seems to be a desire to change the other, i.e., A DESIRE TO CONTROL.
A: You got it!!

I do see that there is a desire by the members to help, but their actions come across the same as if they are one particular political party preaching to another or a preacher talking damnation for those who do not "comply". If we all thought the same, then there would not be the balance as stated in this quote:

Quote by Chu September 27, 2014, 11:15:29 PM
Q A: The universe is about balance. Nuff said! Q

I find the information from the C’s on this forum worthy to continue investigating, but it is quite draining to try to have a discussion with the members. It feels less a conversation, and more a reprimand session.

Once again, I thank you for your time.

 

[Chu]

Mooseheart, you came to OUR forum. We didn't knock on your door nor directed the information at you. Can you see the difference?

I do see that there is a desire by the members to help, but their actions come across the same as if they are one particular political party preaching to another or a preacher talking damnation for those who do not "comply". If we all thought the same, then there would not be the balance as stated in this quote:

And yet you ask for summaries and things that would make learning easier, and therefore, would require less critical thinking on your part. Hmmm... This forum is not for "thinking" the same. Those are opinions. It is for learning to see reality as it is. For SEEing the same. And that comes with a lot of work and effort from the entire network.

Once again, you are using weird analogies. We have no interest in making anyone here "comply" or take our views. You either agree with our forum rules and work and participate gladly and freely, or you don't and you leave. Very simple, really.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Mooseheart - a point about "balance" - balance in the macrocosm doesn't mean it has to exist in the microcosm, because it doesn't need to. STO and STS is a balance, but it doesn't mean either welcomes the other into their ranks. Truth and Lies is a balance - but it doesn't mean those who seek one want the other. Yet both and all exist in the universe. Same applies to this forum - it serves a certain purpose, and it cannot accept any and all other purposes, as that wouldn't make sense. There's other forums that run contrary to these goals - and one could say that creates a "balance".

Also, regarding giving when not asked - why would you walk into a math class if you're not interested in math? If you did, would you complain when you're being asked to study math? And if you just want a summary, perhaps it cannot be broken down to the extent that you expect. Anything worth achieving takes time and effort - it can be summarized to some extent (like Laura's books do), but not all things in the universe can be brought down to a sound bite. Some amount of effort and time is necessary to truly understand certain things, and there's just no way around it, whether we like it or not.

You may be very busy, but as has been mentioned, so are most people on this forum. So it becomes a question of priorities and motivation - how motivated are you to seek truth, and how much time and effort are you willing to invest in said endeavor? How important is it to you, honestly? If you truly cannot sacrifice any aspect of your "busy and active life", then perhaps you're really not that interested? Look at any person in history who has achieved something great in any field because they were highly motivated - and how much energy and time they invested into it, and how many other things had to be "sacrificed" in order to get there. They made the time, because they were driven enough and valued their goal enough. So if truth is really important to you, instead of trying to fit an ocean into a spoon, you'll do your best to learn about the ocean as it is, however long it takes. If it's not, then you won't.

But I promise you that coming to this forum and expecting it to bend to your will, to accommodate expectations that are truly unreasonable in light of the fact that you must apply a certain amount of effort to understand the many complex subjects studied here, is doomed to failure. And distorting the information on this forum to try to "prove" why we're wrong, again, as a result of your own ignorance of the subject and lack of awareness of the context, is also not going to get you anywhere. If you want the truth, you really need to just ask for it, and have no expectation or demands placed on the answer, as that's not really asking.

 

[shellycheval]

Mooseheart

Once again, I thank you for your time.

You are welcome.
Mooseheart

I find the information from the C’s on this forum worthy to continue investigating, but it is quite draining to try to have a discussion with the members. It feels less a conversation, and more a reprimand session.

Then perhaps you would find it more beneficial to just read the material provided on the Cassiopaea site, SOTT, and the Forum for a while, without posting, and see if you find answers to your questions and useful information.

 

[Nević Nenad]

Wow! You don't know a thing about me and you've made quite a few negative remarks about the way I do or should live my life. Is that a STO statement? Thank you for making my point so eloquently. I think your interpretation of "busy active life" meant that I was rich and spoiled and have better things to do with my time than educate myself - perhaps playing with my expensive toys?? I would like to politely disagree with that assumption (assuming I am correct in my own assumption ;)). If you'd like to know, I live well below the poverty level and have had an extremely difficult life since birth. I am also not very good with computers so forgive me for not knowing how to properly copy a quote into this response. Today I was gathering wood for the winter. It is extremely difficult work, and I am quite tired from it, but I'm going to put up one more post to this forum before I quietly leave it alone.

If you read my post once again, you will see that I didn’t mention anything about your life except what you wrote:

I'm sorry, but I lead a busy active life, I cannot sit and read volumes of information or years worth of transcripts.

The rest is just your assumption.



I am sorry to learn that you have difficult life, but you are not alone, and that is not an excuse. Actually in some cases if person find the strength (and actually many of the forum members did exactly that) it could be beneficiary. You could see things that someone who lead “rich and spoiled and have better things to do with my time than educate myself - perhaps playing with my expensive toys” life couldn’t.

So, your starting position is possibly better then you might think, but it’s up to you.

The rest, and especially what other members (mostly much smarter and more patient than me) wrote stays.

 

[H-KQGE]

Mooseheart

Once again, I thank you for your time.

You are welcome.
Mooseheart

I find the information from the C’s on this forum worthy to continue investigating, but it is quite draining to try to have a discussion with the members. It feels less a conversation, and more a reprimand session.

Then perhaps you would find it more beneficial to just read the material provided on the Cassiopaea site, SOTT, and the Forum for a while, without posting, and see if you find answers to your questions and useful information.

Exactly, well said & it boils down to that. I was thinking the same yesterday & trying to figure out how to say it in the most "friendly" way. Which would be over-compensating since people here are friendly enough. Personally I spent a few years just hopping back-and-forth here & on SOTT gathering information, being amazed & getting hungrier for more, wishing I could join. Then I learned that there was even MORE information that a non-member wouldn't have access to on the forum, so a person hunting for objective truth - no matter how unpleasant - would agree to the rules & press join & participate in building individual & collective knowledge, awareness, & understanding. How else is the veil of lies to be pierced & glimpse the truth?


Just to say, Avala I've re-read your post & again I thought there wasn't a problem with it. Especially as your response came after mods & ambassadors who did give a "friendly" response (& the same happened in response to TruthWarrior, who mooseheart thought wasn't being treated nice) & quite frankly it came across as a typical no-nonsense response from some others who chime in when a poster seems to be on "vectoring" duties. In fact, I speak like that in person in general, if needed. The people that seem to be always offended? The pathological/authoritarian types. You can be as friendly as you like, they'll still edit reality & think whatever suits them. Dunno about anyone else, but I'm getting sick of people coming on here saying they've read ALL the sessions, & ALL of the wave (or parts) & they know this that or the other. Then they show that they HAVEN'T by what they continue to say. Usually, certain things have to be teased out of them in a subtle way which exposes them nicely. Cue talk of "unfriendliness" or how one post proves what they already said about the "wrong" way the forum members operate. Can't forget about the sudden revelation about being in contact with ex-members who told 'em so. (it's a cult!) I simply can't imagine what it must be like to edit reality to such a massive extent. SMH.