Session 22 July 2010

[Laura]

There is good and there is evil and there is the specific situation that determines which is which.

 

[Axxel]

Probably, it is necessary what to think for alive and to help the alive?

And probably it is not necessary to limit Mother-Nature in its possibilities, fixing itself on one variant of survival - eating near?

As at Matthew 6:31-32

Therefore take no thought, saying: What shall we eat? or drink? or What shall we wear?
because of all this the Gentiles seek, and because your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all this.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things to you.
Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of his: It is enough for every day of their worries.

Whether it is applicable?

 

[Keit]

There is an article on SOTT on a somewhat similar topic that personally really affected me.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213394-Russia-Pavlovsk-seed-bank-faces-destruction

It talks about Russian seed bank facing destruction to make way for a private housing estate and mentions that during the siege of Leningrad, 12 scientists chose to starve to preserve that bank, while they could survive on the seeds.

Beside the cruel irony that their death is about to be for nothing if the housing project will be approved, it made me think about their motivations and if it was the right thing to do. It seems like their motivations and choices were based on a higher ideal, that there are things worth dying for if it would benefit future generations. Perhaps it is even similar to the choices made by Cathars, where they chose to die instead of betraying their beliefs and converting. Though in Cathars' case the level of control would prevent them to practice their faith even secretly, and death was the only choice to remain loyal to themselves.

So were scientists' choice to die the "right" one? Or perhaps if they chose to eat the seeds and remain alive, they could continue their work and perhaps gradually recover what was lost? It is hard to tell or judge in what cases value of personal life and what one can do with it justifies the means, including eating human flesh. Maybe it all comes down to the intent behind the actions. Sometimes "staying alive to fight another day" is a right thing to do, especially if it doesn't violate another person's life (like eating flesh of people who had already expired). Personally, I don't wish anyone to find themselves in a situation where they would have to make such decision. And sometimes death can be the only right thing to do.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

There is good and there is evil and there is the specific situation that determines which is which.

I think you're very right and in the end it's the context that matters.

I must admit, when I thought of cannibalism I thought of situations where you would kill people and eat their flesh. More similar to the movie the Road- than Alive. I also read a book a bit a go that I wrote about here, where it talked about some people who became a group of cannibals during a post apocalyptic world.

So I must confess the influence of books and movies has made my imagination wander into the worst possibility when talking about cannibalism.

But I can see how that is black and white thinking- and context of such a situation is very important.

I’d also like to thank Richard for posting the quote from Gurdijeff regarding the difference between morality and conscience. Using that quote as reference I understand what you mean anart, by saying morality is subjective and I agree. And where I used the word morality in my previous posts, it should be replaced with conscience, because that’s what I meant.

Dehumanizing other people close to you, which is what cannibalism in a survival situation cannot avoid, is something that I think must be very hard for a soul to bear.

This is exactly what scares me most about the idea of cannibalism. Well said.

 

[Gertrudes]

There is an article on SOTT on a somewhat similar topic that personally really affected me.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213394-Russia-Pavlovsk-seed-bank-faces-destruction

It talks about Russian seed bank facing destruction to make way for a private housing estate and mentions that during the siege of Leningrad, 12 scientists chose to starve to preserve that bank, while they could survive on the seeds.

Beside the cruel irony that their death is about to be for nothing if the housing project will be approved, it made me think about their motivations and if it was the right thing to do. It seems like their motivations and choices were based on a higher ideal, that there are things worth dying for if it would benefit future generations. Perhaps it is even similar to the choices made by Cathars, where they chose to die instead of betraying their beliefs and converting. Though in Cathars' case the level of control would prevent them to practice their faith even secretly, and death was the only choice to remain loyal to themselves.

So were scientists' choice to die the "right" one? Or perhaps if they chose to eat the seeds and remain alive, they could continue their work and perhaps gradually recover what was lost? It is hard to tell or judge in what cases value of personal life and what one can do with it justifies the means, including eating human flesh. Maybe it all comes down to the intent behind the actions. Sometimes "staying alive to fight another day" is a right thing to do, especially if it doesn't violate another person's life (like eating flesh of people who had already expired). Personally, I don't wish anyone to find themselves in a situation where they would have to make such decision. And sometimes death can be the only right thing to do.

Thank you for this article Keit. It touched me to.

I think that perhaps you are right, maybe it is about the intent behind the actions. One could never guess what could have happened if they had decided to eat the seeds, such as one couldn't guess what could have happened if the passengers of the previously mentioned flight had decided not to resort to cannibalism.
Each situation is unique, and perhaps betraying or not one's consciousness, (not morality), determines the nature of the act.

 

[JAKSUN]

There is good and there is evil and there is the specific situation that determines which is which.

Cannibalism is one hellova contentious subject but here are my thoughts for today - how you take it is up to you.

We are one body, all of us everywhere are made of the same 'stuff'. We are one being in a very real sense. Biting nails is also a form of cannablism OSIT. When I eat a yummy Kumera I am eating myself. What else is there?

As for whether I'd kill a human to eat its flesh well, I killed my dearly beloved cat yesterday, because I understand the euthanasia drugs cause the animal 'spirit' to suffer and because it was my own responsibility to terminate her life. I fully acknowledge that I killed myself in one of my myriad forms by doing this. As the blue lady says in Avatar - "I see you". If I was desperately hungry I'd have eaten her instead of burying her under the grapevine.

It is the soul that matters. So what's the difference if its human flesh? Are we having an egocentric problem here?

If I was in the position that I needed to feed my starving family and the only available food was a dead human - well, I'd do it, if it was fresh; but probably would have to disguise the meat as say, wild pork. If I had to kill a predator human I'd do that too if there was no other practical way. My dad fought and killed in a world war and that's the way it went at the time. But they had 'rations' and imperialitic morality. We may not have such luxuries as rations to see us through. We certainly will not have imperialistic morality which is a blessing and instead will have OBJECTIVITY.

If I needed to eat a predatory human I killed because circumstances required it for survival, I think my biggest concern would be; what has it been eating - how toxic is it? Morality just would not be a consideration. I'd just smile as I turned it on the spit.

I really hope it does not come to this, and I hesitate to say that my life would be worth much in terms of being able to 'make a difference' after the cataclysm anyway. Personally I am in such a hurry to 'get out of here' that if I did not suffer too much, other humans will be welcome to my flesh - It should be nice and clean by then, mmmm tasty too. Not very much 'crackle' in it but - Oh, try the thigh! Ha Ha Ha!

The point is that illusion is eating illusion and that is in itself an illusion. It is the lesson that the souls are learning that counts. An STO being would not hesitate to give its illusory life for the benefit of others OSIT. He/She would be thinking "I'm outa here, thanks DCM." And the beneficieries of the soulless flesh had better be bloody grateful for the sacrifice!

The Cs have said that help will come so don't sweat this nonsense.

As for writing on money, nothing gets our ire up more around here than vandalism and graffiti. It just looks CHEAP! Come on guys, I am surprised at you. Confontation is NOT an effective way to win over anyone. We gotta do better than that. Sheesh!

As for the Russian guys with the seed bank - just eat the seeds. Just hope like hell there is Buckwheat and Quinoa. No corn please - I'd rather expire!

Burn this witch on a fire but that is what I currently think.

 

[Skipling]

I remember watching the film "Alive" back in the nineties, and it does indeed raise an enormous question about just what you would be prepared to do in order to survive.

For what it's worth I think it surely must be a purely individual choice. Could you live with yourself after eating another human being? In any context?

I don't think I could. I found the scenes in "The Road" alluding to cannibalistic practices to be enough to raise a crisis in me.

I suppose it really does depend on how much you value your own survival, and whether you could live with "doing the deed". For those who are only aware of materialistic existence it may well be an easier choice to make, but no, I would take death in that situation. I would fight like a fiend to ensure that no-one would eat me, however!!!!! Which raises a pretty provocative question. Am I being moral, or humane? No. It's not really a "moral" choice, as Anart says. It just comes down to what you are prepared to do in a specific situation.

I'm now off to watch "Soylent Green"....

 

[ana]

We are one body, all of us everywhere are made of the same 'stuff'. We are one being in a very real sense.

Be aware of the hypocrisy of the ego, who pretends for himself the beauty of the soul.

As for whether I'd kill a human to eat its flesh well, I killed my dearly beloved cat yesterday, because I understand the euthanasia drugs cause the animal 'spirit' to suffer
and because it was my own responsibility to terminate her life. I fully acknowledge that I killed myself in one of my myriad forms by doing this.

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=142

At our level of reality, the understanding that "nothing is real," as has been promulgated by gurus and teachers down through history, is as useless as saying "gravity isn't
real." Such considerations are useful only for expansion of perception. They are not useful for practical application since the energies of creation apparently transduce through several "levels" before they meet in the middle, so to say, in our third density reality. Organic life exists at the "crossroads" of the myriad ideas or thought centers of being and non-being. As such, they have the capacity to transduce energies "up" or "down" depending on the "consciousness energy directors" of that unit. And again, there are
apparently two broad divisions: directed toward being/ observing, or directed toward non-being/ mirroring. This division manifests across all levels of organic life, including human beings.
Human beings exist to transduce cosmic energies of creation via organic life. Our "higher selves" are the directors of this transducing of cosmic energies, and the
direction in which the energy "flows" is determined by the activities of these higher selves. Against the opposition of those forces seeking to "capture" energy of consciousness and induce it to the "sleep of non-being," which is gravitational in a certain sense, the energies of consciousness seek to "inform" matter via awakening the self-awareness of those organic units on earth that are capable of resistance to the gravity of non-being.

 

[JAKSUN]

We are one body, all of us everywhere are made of the same 'stuff'. We are one being in a very real sense.

Be aware of the hypocrisy of the ego, who pretends for himself the beauty of the soul.

Ego has nothing to do with this concept. What existance do 'I' have without 'you'. Perhaps I have offended 'your' ego.

As for whether I'd kill a human to eat its flesh well, I killed my dearly beloved cat yesterday, because I understand the euthanasia drugs cause the animal 'spirit' to suffer
and because it was my own responsibility to terminate her life. I fully acknowledge that I killed myself in one of my myriad forms by doing this.

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=142

At our level of reality, the understanding that "nothing is real," as has been promulgated by gurus and teachers down through history, is as useless as saying "gravity isn't
real." Such considerations are useful only for expansion of perception. They are not useful for practical application since the energies of creation apparently transduce through several "levels" before they meet in the middle, so to say, in our third density reality. Organic life exists at the "crossroads" of the myriad ideas or thought centers of being and non-being. As such, they have the capacity to transduce energies "up" or "down" depending on the "consciousness energy directors" of that unit. And again, there are
apparently two broad divisions: directed toward being/ observing, or directed toward non-being/ mirroring. This division manifests across all levels of organic life, including human beings.
Human beings exist to transduce cosmic energies of creation via organic life. Our "higher selves" are the directors of this transducing of cosmic energies, and the
direction in which the energy "flows" is determined by the activities of these higher selves. Against the opposition of those forces seeking to "capture" energy of consciousness and induce it to the "sleep of non-being," which is gravitational in a certain sense, the energies of consciousness seek to "inform" matter via awakening the self-awareness of those organic units on earth that are capable of resistance to the gravity of non-being.

In what way is the above quote relevant to what I wrote...

The point is that illusion is eating illusion and that is in itself an illusion.

Human beings exist to transduce cosmic energies of creation via organic life. Our "higher selves" are the directors of this transducing of cosmic energies, and the direction in which the energy "flows" is determined by the activities of these higher selves.

Exactly! I have no argument with the above quote from the glossary thank you.


What do STO beings do in a war against STS - embrace them with continued existance in thier current form? This is a WAR through us, and we are the prize. I choose submission to and pray for guidance from my higher self - DCM. There is nothing else that 'I' choose to do. "We" have no existance except in that context.

Please continue to help me erradicate my errors in thinking, I have yet much to learn and grateful for your input.

p.s. I said the subject of canabilism was contentious and was suprised to see it considered as a possibility. At the time of that sort of choice I genuinely hope I am not here to have to make it! But here in 3rd density I must act in 3rd density. It is my lesson plan.

 

[ana]

Please continue to help me erradicate my errors in thinking, I have yet much to learn and grateful for your input.

Why do you want to "erradicate the errors in your thinking" in the end everything is an illusion, so does it really matter?

The point is that illusion is eating illusion and that is in itself an illusion.

Furthermore, why do i or anyone want to help you, you are just one of my/our myriad forms and bothering about you would be unnecessary because everything is an illusion, isn't it?

I fully acknowledge that I killed myself in one of my myriad forms by doing this.

 

[nwigal]

Please continue to help me erradicate my errors in thinking, I have yet much to learn and grateful for your input.

Why do you want to "erradicate the errors in your thinking" in the end everything is an illusion, so does it really matter?

The point is that illusion is eating illusion and that is in itself an illusion.

That is like saying when the subjective eats the objective, subjective is the product. That is a lie, there is another Way.

Furthermore, why do i or anyone want to help you, you are just one of my/our myriad forms and bothering about you would be unnecessary because everything is an illusion, isn't it?

I fully acknowledge that I killed myself in one of my myriad forms by doing this.

Maybe you are perceiving yourself as a singularity? This is an old hubris of a high order; perhaps the universe will teach you otherwise? You may want to take care, be careful what you ask for...we may not be one of your myriad forms any more, or less, than you are ours.

 

[JAKSUN]

Quote from: Ana on Today at 12:01:41 PM
Quote from: ignite
Please continue to help me eradicate my errors in thinking, I have yet much to learn and grateful for your input.

Why do you want to "eradicate the errors in your thinking" in the end everything is an illusion, so does it really matter?

It matters to me.

High Strangeness, LKJ page 136
"Now a shocker for you: You would not exist if someone didn't "dream you up". You literally are the "figments" of someone's imagination, and nothing more!!! Remember, "God" is really all existence in creation, in other words, all consciousness. This is because all existence in creation is consciousness, and vice versa. Remember, all there is is lessons!"

The point is that illusion is eating illusion and that is in itself an illusion.

That is like saying when the subjective eats the objective, subjective is the product. That is a lie, there is another Way.

I do not follow you on this Ana. But the following may help to place my perspective.

High Strangeness LKJ pg 169
…Q: (L) And who put the illusion into place?
A: The Creator who is the Created. Which is you and us and all. As we told have told you, we are you and vice versa. And so is everything else….

And this was experienced several months ago.

I did POTs meditation lying there and then just rested waiting for sleep.
Lying there, I became aware of two voices explaining a concept to me that seemed to live of its own right. It was alive in my attention as these two voices explained. It sparkled with the knowledge of God and I marvelled, transfixed by the experience and understanding. It was kind of like an unveiling or higher knowledge.

The concept arose with a circle representing creation and as the voice commented, I saw this circle as the ONLY one, and then I saw that this caused two conditions. Zero and one, although they were a unity. Yet these conditions gave rise to another which was the number two. I saw the one and the two as a duality balanced on the zero as scales over a fulcrum which provided a neutralizing force. This configuration gave rise to three conditions or forces. One passive, one active and one neutral. I then saw how this arrangement produced a fourth condition, movement of matter. Then I saw a fifth condition and it was man. At this point the continuing arising of conditions or forces became multifarious and complex. This experience reminded me of Mouravieff's teaching in Gnosis, pg 195

There is also an image I remember but cannot place at the moment that further describes this concept that “The point is that illusion is eating illusion and that is in itself an illusion.” It involves an animal in a circular configuration eating its own tail. The symbolism of yin and yang and the concept of eternal change also comes to mind.

Furthermore, why do i or anyone want to help you, you are just one of my/our myriad forms and bothering about you would be unnecessary because everything is an illusion, isn't it?

Because I ask – please.

from: ignite
I fully acknowledge that I killed myself in one of my myriad forms by doing this.

from Anwigal: Maybe you are perceiving yourself as a singularity? This is an old hubris of a high order; perhaps the universe will teach you otherwise? You may want to take care, be careful what you ask for...we may not be one of your myriad forms any more, or less, than you are ours.

I do have a vision of a singularity yes, but it is not mine and yet it is. At a higher level of existence, perhaps 7th density, that which animates as this 3rd density being that ‘I’ must conform to; is that singularity.

High Strangeness LKJ pg 169
…Q: (L) And who put the illusion into place?
A: The Creator who is the Created. Which is you and us and all. As we told have told you, we are you and vice versa. And so is everything else….

 

[ana]

You may want to devote some time to organize and clarify your post, you have mixed responses from nwigal with mine and it has become pretty chaotic. :)

This article by Laura greatly explains many subtle but important differences between STS and STO orientations and how they manifest.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/stalking.htm

In order to move to the higher order of circulating and incorporating Light with greater efficiency, purer impressions are required. "Purer" means more objective. The less "twist" or "spin" put on the light impression by the receiving entity, the purer it is. This purity or objectivity of impressions is optimized in correspondence to a deep, unitive apprehension of consciousness.

This term "unitive," does not mean that the "other" is perceived exactly AS self, but rather that all others are perceived as light-energy units to be conserved, aligned, balanced, and part of a whole structure, rather than something to be consumed in a one-way discharge to a single typology. This "unitive consciousness" promotes the cognitive field of the Whole-being, as being wholly of value through all patterns and forms. It perceives the sum of the different identities as possessing an AXIS of Conscious Identity, expressed by endless forms of existence/creation.

It is thus an ecstatic, celebration of the congruence of Love without any desire or need to "possess" or "eat" or force a "one way flow" of being or to "become One" The positive forces, the STO beings at higher levels are actively working to sustain the Creative fields toward achievement of the positive Logoic purpose which is the realization of Absolute Consciousness under all conditions and in all forms. Diversity is promoted and celebrated.

However, the Negative hierarchy is oriented toward the consuming of radiant light energy in a one way flow: to "Become One." The progressive power that devolves from the "capture" and incorporation or radiant-light sources serves to feed and enhance an exclusive subjectivity of consciousness since the effort is toward the subordination of all things to the magnified narcissism belonging to devout ego consciousness.

At the higher levels, the absorptive framework of self-enhanced ego consciousness takes on a severe functional contraction and effective withdrawal from interest/involvement in the created fields of being, maintaining a minimalist interaction with only its closest contacts in the pyramid.

Thus, the negative being of higher densities takes on the configuration of a forebodingly lonely presence, lurking in caves and desolate grottos of the astrophysical realms. It becomes a fiercely mental entity of 5th density power-knowledge, possessing the proverbial basilisk gaze and only turning the stream of its attention "away" from that intensified/contractile self absorption toward the created worlds in token deference of the need to canalize the funneling food source - sucking vitality from the extravagances and pastimes comprising the follies of the created worlds, imbibing the "light units" to insure the uninterrupted power that it needs, the inconceivable "wattage" required, to maintain that monumental self-absorption and narcissistic self-luminance of the negative Ego-postulate - the Anti-Logos, the Selfness of Consciousness.

So it is that the Anti-Logos cannot simply withdraw from the worlds of creation - it must absorb them into itself - it feels the necessity of undoing creation - it NEEDS that energy to fuel its infinite self-contemplation.

The STS way of achieving "density of consciousness" is to "gain weight" by assimilation of other consciousness units. This is generally promoted as "All is One" and refers to "evil" as a "rebellion" or a fault or something that will ultimately be "done away with."
STO, on the other hand sees "gaining weight" in a different way. It sees that an acknowledgement of the consciousness of "other self" as equal to its own consciousness, in spite of completely different manifestation of that being, is the way to "network" the consciousness so that the Whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Then talking of unveiling and interaction with "higher" sources , you may want to read this:

Ibn al-'Arabi addressed this problem in detail. He tells us that "the unveiling that the traveler experiences, (i.e. the results of meditation) "adds nothing to the principles and corollaries of faith. At most, it fills in some of the details. [...] Given that we enter the path and follow the guidance of God, and given that we experience an "unveiling" that makes all sorts of things clear to us that we never understood before, can we be sure that the unveiling is from God? Is there no possibility of satanic intervention and our going astray? Is not a person who claims that he is following his own "tasting" in effect claiming independence and setting up his own religion, at least for himself?"

And the answer he gives is that: "Any knowledge, any "tasting," any "unveiling," witnessing or self-disclosure must submit itself to the Scale of the Law. (i.e. networking.)

"The traveler who wants to reach the goal safely must avoid the deceptions that lie in wait for him on the path. Once he has reached the stages of unveiling and witnessing, he will be tempted by Satan and his own caprice to depend upon himself rather than follow the "scale of the law."

"He must move forward according to the scale of knowledge derived from [networking].
"If a "divine command" should come to him in that which is made manifest to him, that contradicts the scale, then he has been duped.

"Many of those who wish for God have been duped in their states without being aware. This is a hidden deception. a strong divine guile, and a being led on step by step without their being aware.

"Beware lest you throw the Scale from your hand... If you understand from it something different from what the people (meaning those of the path) understand such that your understanding comes between you and them, then do not rely upon your understanding! For it is a deception of the ego in a divine form without your being aware.

"We have come across sincere people among the Folk of Allah who have been duped by this station. They prefer their own unveiling and that which becomes manifest to them in their understanding. They depend upon this in their own case. Anyone who relies upon it is totally confused and has left his affiliation with the Folk, thereby joining the "greatest losers." Their striving goes astray in the present life, while they think they are working good deeds."

"The traveler seeks to increase their capacity to receive inrushes so that they will NOT be affected by them.

"They also avoid those states which become manifest as "extraordinary."

According to the Koran, God is the "Best of Deceivers."

These deceptions are the many tests to determine if the traveler can "see through" and navigate the path.

"So, preserve yourselves, my brothers, from the calamities of this place, for distinguishing it is extremely difficult! Souls find it sweet, and then within it they are duped, since they become completely enamoured of it."

 

[JAKSUN]

You may want to devote some time to organize and clarify your post, you have mixed responses from nwigal with mine and it has become pretty chaotic. :)

Yes, but I will leave it as it is. The two became one and were addressed as one. :)

This article by Laura greatly explains many subtle but important differences between STS and STO orientations and how they manifest.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/stalking.htm

Thank you, this quote helps clarify matters of orientation, but was unnecessary. What I have said is not about orientaion as such and is clear enough.


Edit after a walk by a bubbling stream, contained chaos after a rain....

I will attend to making the reference to nwigal.

In retrospect Ana, you have something here that is very important for me to consider more deeply. :) I do not know that I have actually ever 'studied' the 'concept' of Service to Others. I have just assumed I understood it. Perhaps I do, perhaps not.

The STS way of achieving "density of consciousness" is to "gain weight" by assimilation of other consciousness units. This is generally promoted as "All is One" and refers to "evil" as a "rebellion" or a fault or something that will ultimately be "done away with."
STO, on the other hand sees "gaining weight" in a different way. It sees that an acknowledgement of the consciousness of "other self" as equal to its own consciousness, in spite of completely different manifestation of that being, is the way to "network" the consciousness so that the Whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

The difference between STS and STO can be very subtle indeed. And perhaps I over estimate my understanding of it.
"It sees that an acknowledgement of the consciousness of "other self" as equal to its own consciousness,

Regarding self, 'I' do have a perception of others equal to myself...Perhaps my sense of equality has immersed me too much. I just 'know' that this 'trancieving unit self' is an extention of a greater being that contains you, my cat, and the bird that sat on my letterbox this morning while I was having a fag., and this being seems to have unknown bounds or types of expressions. In a sense it is the ultimate grandiosity, but it is not 'my' grandiosity. It will make of me what it will inasmuch as I allow it. Yet 'I' can 'direct' energy in ways that 'I' define as under my control by choice. Its a bloody mustery!

To get to the point, I have a sense that you are implying that my previous posts display STS orientation and I must examine that more closely. Also the idea of stalking from Laura's heading quoted above is extreemly disturbing: "....cassiopaea.org/cass/stalking.htm". But, perhaps I am not seeing something that you are?

I am printing this interplay so I can contemplate it away from this strobe device. :)

bye for now.

 

[anart]

Thank you, this quote helps clarify matters of orientation, but was unnecessary. What I have said is not about orientaion as such and is clear enough.

Hi ignite. Judging from the responses you've received, it appears that what you have said is not 'clear enough'. Perhaps you could try to clarify not only for the benefit of others, but for your own benefit?