Session 28 May 2013
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
That's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about, chrismcdude. The idea is not that a map will magically arrange into a geometric figure to reveal amazingness or somesuch nonsense. The idea is that once you have all the concepts arranged by their relationships, you do not need to rely on our awful human memory and mentation to do that. It expands your ability to think. That you are seeing more clearly what you don't know, means that the map is helping you to see reality. The brain might not be able to fully visualize this, but the brain will learn to mimic the map if you work with it and elucidate it's structure.
Right now the map is at it's most basic stage. We don't know how the concepts are actually related, we just know how the C's have talked about them, so all we can do is draw arrows between the words with the words the C's used, and the other knowledge we have.
I think we should consider the relationships and how better they may be visualized. For instance, the only possible way I can learn math is to learn it along with other things. I learned everything I know about math from electronics. However I learned what I did in such a way that I have a deep understanding of its application and can readily extend this understanding to adjacent applications when they appear.
A lot of units of physics are nothing more than proportionally related to other units and measures. You can map proportional relationships as triangles connecting 3 words. For instance, voltage, current and power. Voltage, current and resistance. If you do a reciprocal of one term, the triangle flips onto another side but it is still a triangle. Even in relationships where you find something squared or cuberoot, if you plot these triangles you'll see that it's that way because a term has appeared again at a different point. Maybe you could visualize this directly - but that image would be difficult to maintain and would disappear the moment you were distracted.
When designing analogue amplifiers I have to keep in mind an enormous number of variables. The end specification of the amp is a number that is a combination of an endless number of sub-specs, which themselves are derived from the endless number of mathematical relationships inside the amp. It does not matter to me whether a "map" is a "cop out" or "crutch". I use whatever tool it takes to get the job done. Our brains are no less material than the map - it is your ability to use it that counts. I find that after using a tool enough, it gets easier to use it in my head. Gurdjieff had the Enneagram - even if no one drew the picture, that is the network of connections that would form in your brain if you were to understand its principles. Evidently someone had the idea of drawing it, and I don't think this was a bad idea.
Now that all the concepts have been collected in one place, we can have them in front of us to refer to. We may get creative about how to represent the relationships. This may lend itself more to a sketchbook than a mouse drawing. What does "assimilated" mean? Unless you know exactly what this word means you can't know what the C's meant. So determine its meaning and find a way to visualize it. The purpose of visualization is to convey more directly the meaning of something in such a way that it "connects" with other things. A visualization of a car is more accurate than the word "car". If you can visualize a gear and a crankshaft, you will notice they fit together. I think we will find that the relationships themselves contain relationships that when grokked, and considered with the other relationships, begin to paint a picture that can be connected with what we already know.
I notice some of these terms are mathematical. It seems it would be straightforward to elaborate the math structure where possible. Goyacobol posted the excerpt on the 3 forces - how many of these ideas apply to the 3 forces structure?
Right now the map is at it's most basic stage. We don't know how the concepts are actually related, we just know how the C's have talked about them, so all we can do is draw arrows between the words with the words the C's used, and the other knowledge we have.
I think we should consider the relationships and how better they may be visualized. For instance, the only possible way I can learn math is to learn it along with other things. I learned everything I know about math from electronics. However I learned what I did in such a way that I have a deep understanding of its application and can readily extend this understanding to adjacent applications when they appear.
A lot of units of physics are nothing more than proportionally related to other units and measures. You can map proportional relationships as triangles connecting 3 words. For instance, voltage, current and power. Voltage, current and resistance. If you do a reciprocal of one term, the triangle flips onto another side but it is still a triangle. Even in relationships where you find something squared or cuberoot, if you plot these triangles you'll see that it's that way because a term has appeared again at a different point. Maybe you could visualize this directly - but that image would be difficult to maintain and would disappear the moment you were distracted.
When designing analogue amplifiers I have to keep in mind an enormous number of variables. The end specification of the amp is a number that is a combination of an endless number of sub-specs, which themselves are derived from the endless number of mathematical relationships inside the amp. It does not matter to me whether a "map" is a "cop out" or "crutch". I use whatever tool it takes to get the job done. Our brains are no less material than the map - it is your ability to use it that counts. I find that after using a tool enough, it gets easier to use it in my head. Gurdjieff had the Enneagram - even if no one drew the picture, that is the network of connections that would form in your brain if you were to understand its principles. Evidently someone had the idea of drawing it, and I don't think this was a bad idea.
Now that all the concepts have been collected in one place, we can have them in front of us to refer to. We may get creative about how to represent the relationships. This may lend itself more to a sketchbook than a mouse drawing. What does "assimilated" mean? Unless you know exactly what this word means you can't know what the C's meant. So determine its meaning and find a way to visualize it. The purpose of visualization is to convey more directly the meaning of something in such a way that it "connects" with other things. A visualization of a car is more accurate than the word "car". If you can visualize a gear and a crankshaft, you will notice they fit together. I think we will find that the relationships themselves contain relationships that when grokked, and considered with the other relationships, begin to paint a picture that can be connected with what we already know.
I notice some of these terms are mathematical. It seems it would be straightforward to elaborate the math structure where possible. Goyacobol posted the excerpt on the 3 forces - how many of these ideas apply to the 3 forces structure?
The path from Gravity to Consciousness is parallel to the path from Information to Consciousness. So what if Gravity "Utilized" arranges Information by Truth becoming Consciousness?
I know that an avalanche could be seen as a "utilization" of gravity, resulting in a new arrangement, but whether the arrangement corresponds to truth is up for grabs. But what can "utilize" gravity if gravity is a precursor to consciousness?
Notice definitions 1, 4, and 6. I suggested that truth is corresponding information, and that corresponding information forms patterns. If information aggregates matter, then maybe matter arises from corresponding information?
Are thoughts the arrangement of information? Thoughts can be true or untrue. The C's say that believing lies fractures consciousness. Believing lies causes untrue thoughts. What if thoughts are arrangements of information, which can correspond or not, being true or not? Thus, believing truth mends and increases consciousness.
What if True Thoughts are Gravity Utilized? This agrees with Gravity Utilized causing Light. All this seems to point to information correspondence causing gravity, but I feel something does not add up.
Is Knowledge Stored Thought?
It seems to me that Knowledge is internal information. If this information corresponds to outer information, there is gravity, and this causes awareness. The amount of internal Truth will determine the external Truth one can be aware of. Without internal Truth, one is not aware of the external Truth. When lies are internalized, one cannot be aware of Truth, and the possibility of the internal knowledge corresponding with external knowledge at all diminishes.
There are plenty of loops in there. Can some of these loops represent feedback or self-regulation? Is there a distinction between these loops when used for self-regulation and when used for self-destruction?
Some things can be added (I may not have gotten these all right):
Memory is increased by Being
Non-being
center of non-being, forces of entropy
Emotional, intellectual, sexual centers, etc.
Atomic particles corresponding to centers
antimatter
lies/untruth/false knowledge
belief
belief in lies, false knowledge fractures consciousness
faith
viruses (are thoughts)
Knowledge protects
Ignorance endangers
To Know is to Love is Light
Knowledge Utilized/Applied generates Light
Attention, fixes outcomes
I know that an avalanche could be seen as a "utilization" of gravity, resulting in a new arrangement, but whether the arrangement corresponds to truth is up for grabs. But what can "utilize" gravity if gravity is a precursor to consciousness?
dictionary.com said:
Notice definitions 1, 4, and 6. I suggested that truth is corresponding information, and that corresponding information forms patterns. If information aggregates matter, then maybe matter arises from corresponding information?
Are thoughts the arrangement of information? Thoughts can be true or untrue. The C's say that believing lies fractures consciousness. Believing lies causes untrue thoughts. What if thoughts are arrangements of information, which can correspond or not, being true or not? Thus, believing truth mends and increases consciousness.
What if True Thoughts are Gravity Utilized? This agrees with Gravity Utilized causing Light. All this seems to point to information correspondence causing gravity, but I feel something does not add up.
Is Knowledge Stored Thought?
It seems to me that Knowledge is internal information. If this information corresponds to outer information, there is gravity, and this causes awareness. The amount of internal Truth will determine the external Truth one can be aware of. Without internal Truth, one is not aware of the external Truth. When lies are internalized, one cannot be aware of Truth, and the possibility of the internal knowledge corresponding with external knowledge at all diminishes.
There are plenty of loops in there. Can some of these loops represent feedback or self-regulation? Is there a distinction between these loops when used for self-regulation and when used for self-destruction?
Some things can be added (I may not have gotten these all right):
Memory is increased by Being
Non-being
center of non-being, forces of entropy
Emotional, intellectual, sexual centers, etc.
Atomic particles corresponding to centers
antimatter
lies/untruth/false knowledge
belief
belief in lies, false knowledge fractures consciousness
faith
viruses (are thoughts)
Knowledge protects
Ignorance endangers
To Know is to Love is Light
Knowledge Utilized/Applied generates Light
Attention, fixes outcomes
piliangie
Jedi
No.Mr DPREE.Not just in Puerto Rico..in Mexico..they say also Mucho Gusto...is very common actually...when you meet some one ..or when you are living you say mucho gusto..not rare at all..... 
We'll never know if it was really a hint..from de C's or just they feel like it!
Some times they like to joke that's what I see in the sessions..is joy ! mucho gusto ! a lot of joy!
We'll never know if it was really a hint..from de C's or just they feel like it! Some times they like to joke that's what I see in the sessions..is joy ! mucho gusto ! a lot of joy!
ddupree said:
Hi ddupree, welcome to the forum. We recommend that all new forum members introduce themselves in the Newbies section of the forum. No personal details need to be revealed, just a little about yourself and how you found this forum.
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Monotonic,
Wow, I think you are so logical in seeing the possible pieces for the "Map". I think if we always mention "Map" we can later retrieve the related posts on our topic which may need it's own area to continue pulling things together. It feels like we are trying to create something as complex as an "Enneagram". It's such a challenge and challenges can be frustrating but also rewarding if they can be met I suppose.
Thanks,
goyacobol
monotonic said:
Wow, I think you are so logical in seeing the possible pieces for the "Map". I think if we always mention "Map" we can later retrieve the related posts on our topic which may need it's own area to continue pulling things together. It feels like we are trying to create something as complex as an "Enneagram". It's such a challenge and challenges can be frustrating but also rewarding if they can be met I suppose.
Thanks,
goyacobol
mariowil7,
This program sounds really interesting. It is infinite linear storage with no decimal points. It sounds like you may have "play"ed with it already. Do you have any thoughts on how it could be used in a practical way in developing a "Map" of the concepts/pieces that are being mentioned? I don't think any us fully understand the vast amount of information that we have in pieces from the reading material suggested on the forum but we are trying our best to utilize our talents to share insights.
Thanks,
goyacobol
mariowil7 said:In relation to the discussion of:
Programer, Conciousness, Information, Hardware, Software etc... in the context of Soul, Mind and Body. It will be intresting
for us to review the concept of the Turing Machine... Here is one definition that can give light to the
concepts above disscussed.
What's a Turing Machine?
A Turing Machine is a theoretical computer consisting of a tape of infinite length and a read-write head which can move left and right across the tape. When started, a Turing machine executes a series of discrete transitions, as determined by its transition table and by the initial characters on the tape. For each transition, the machine checks what state it is in and what character is written on the tape below the head. Based on those, it then changes to a new state, writes a new character on the tape, and moves the head one space left or right. The machine stops after transferring to the special HALT state. So, a transition table for a 2-state TM might look like this:
| State 1 | State 2
"x" | 2, y, right | 1, y, left
"y" | 2, x, left | halt, x, right
So, for instance, if the machine was in state 1 and an "x" was the current character, it would write a "y", move right, and enter state 2. If it were in state 2 looking at a "y", it would write an "x", move right, and halt. Technically, a valid TM should have an action defined for every state/character pair that might occur. The simulator applet implicitly halts if it finds no transition that applies to its current situation.
However odd it may sound for so simple a machine, the Turing Machine is the most powerful computing model known to computer scientists. In this context, "powerful" refers only to what it is capable of doing, not to how fast or efficiently it does it. It has been proven that a TM is capable of performing any computation that a modern computer can, given enough time. Infact, it is technically MORE powerful than modern computers, since it has no storage limitations.
Classically, a Turing Machine is thought of as having its tape bounded on the left but extending infinitely to the right, though its power is not expanded by making it unbounded on both ends. The simulator, of course, is bounded on both ends, which is really the only detail that makes it a simulator and not the real thing. In addition, the classical TM has 4-tuple transitions: (state, character) --> (new state, new character OR direction), meaning that it cannot both write a character and move the head in the same transition. The 5-tuple transitions used in the applet make things a bit simpler and do not actually change the power of the machine, but a 4-tuple machine can be simulated if desired.
_http://ironphoenix.org/tril/tm/help/basics.shtml
Here is the Turing Simulator: _http://ironphoenix.org/tril/tm/ (I recomendo to play with it to get the concept)
Some Wiki Link usefull: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine
and of course the more recent advances in the concept of Programming Language for Turing machines.
The Language is called "BRAINFUCK" dessigned to confuse Programmers... _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
I think that the well understanding of the turing machine wil shed light in the Diagrams Folks... (I did not fully understud it Yet).
Cheers!!!...
This program sounds really interesting. It is infinite linear storage with no decimal points. It sounds like you may have "play"ed with it already. Do you have any thoughts on how it could be used in a practical way in developing a "Map" of the concepts/pieces that are being mentioned? I don't think any us fully understand the vast amount of information that we have in pieces from the reading material suggested on the forum but we are trying our best to utilize our talents to share insights.
Thanks,
goyacobol
mariowil7
Jedi Master
Guayacobol!,
Yes I have an ideia...
it is something that I learned in the University called STATE DIAGRAMS... and very related to CHARTS, Graphs and all that sort of things...
At the time when I learned State-Diagrams it was to apply it to Design Micro-chips, CPUs, and all that jazz...
actually the theory of Electronics Circuits applied to Micro-Chips is partially based on those concepts...
They call it: MACHINE STATE DIAGRAMS using Boolean Logic. _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_diagram
"A state diagram is a type of diagram used in computer science and related fields to describe the behavior of systems. State diagrams require that the system described is composed of a finite number of states; sometimes, this is indeed the case, while at other times this is a reasonable abstraction. Many forms of state diagrams exist, which differ slightly and have different semantics.
State diagrams are used to give an abstract description of the behavior of a system. This behavior is analyzed and represented in series of events, that could occur in one or more possible states. Hereby "each diagram usually represents objects of a single class and track the different states of its objects through the system".[1]
State diagrams can be used to graphically represent finite state machines. This was introduced by C.E. Shannon and W. Weaver in their 1949 book "The Mathematical Theory of Communication". Another source is Taylor Booth in his 1967 book "Sequential Machines and Automata Theory". Another possible representation is the State transition table."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finite_state_machine_example_with_comments.svg
Example1: DFA, NFA, GNFA, or Moore machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DFAexample.svg
Example2: Mealy machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mealymachine_jaredwf.png
I'm working in the fully understanding of the Turing Simulator.
After that I will try to make Analogies to the Rich discussion that was started here... Related to charts, Cosmic Mind, Truth, Data, Conciousness.
It will take a little bit of time... but I think that it is worth...
Stay Tuned.
Yes I have an ideia...
it is something that I learned in the University called STATE DIAGRAMS... and very related to CHARTS, Graphs and all that sort of things...
At the time when I learned State-Diagrams it was to apply it to Design Micro-chips, CPUs, and all that jazz...
actually the theory of Electronics Circuits applied to Micro-Chips is partially based on those concepts...
They call it: MACHINE STATE DIAGRAMS using Boolean Logic. _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_diagram
"A state diagram is a type of diagram used in computer science and related fields to describe the behavior of systems. State diagrams require that the system described is composed of a finite number of states; sometimes, this is indeed the case, while at other times this is a reasonable abstraction. Many forms of state diagrams exist, which differ slightly and have different semantics.
State diagrams are used to give an abstract description of the behavior of a system. This behavior is analyzed and represented in series of events, that could occur in one or more possible states. Hereby "each diagram usually represents objects of a single class and track the different states of its objects through the system".[1]
State diagrams can be used to graphically represent finite state machines. This was introduced by C.E. Shannon and W. Weaver in their 1949 book "The Mathematical Theory of Communication". Another source is Taylor Booth in his 1967 book "Sequential Machines and Automata Theory". Another possible representation is the State transition table."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finite_state_machine_example_with_comments.svg
Example1: DFA, NFA, GNFA, or Moore machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DFAexample.svg
Example2: Mealy machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mealymachine_jaredwf.png
I'm working in the fully understanding of the Turing Simulator.
After that I will try to make Analogies to the Rich discussion that was started here... Related to charts, Cosmic Mind, Truth, Data, Conciousness.
It will take a little bit of time... but I think that it is worth...
Stay Tuned.
mariowil7,
That sounds great! Maybe you can incorporate the concepts of monotonic and chrismcdude into the process. Hopefully they will see this post and realize some of the implications that may help the process. Boolean Logic would be a great approach I think. I am not quite so brainy as you probably but I can appreciate what you are proposing.
I will check out the links and try to learn more.
Cheers,
goyacobol :)
mariowil7 said:Guayacobol!,
Yes I have an ideia...
it is something that I learned in the University called STATE DIAGRAMS... and very related to CHARTS, Graphs and all that sort of things...
At the time when I learned State-Diagrams it was to apply it to Design Micro-chips, CPUs, and all that jazz...
actually the theory of Electronics Circuits applied to Micro-Chips is partially based on those concepts...
They call it: MACHINE STATE DIAGRAMS using Boolean Logic. _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_diagram
"A state diagram is a type of diagram used in computer science and related fields to describe the behavior of systems. State diagrams require that the system described is composed of a finite number of states; sometimes, this is indeed the case, while at other times this is a reasonable abstraction. Many forms of state diagrams exist, which differ slightly and have different semantics.
State diagrams are used to give an abstract description of the behavior of a system. This behavior is analyzed and represented in series of events, that could occur in one or more possible states. Hereby "each diagram usually represents objects of a single class and track the different states of its objects through the system".[1]
State diagrams can be used to graphically represent finite state machines. This was introduced by C.E. Shannon and W. Weaver in their 1949 book "The Mathematical Theory of Communication". Another source is Taylor Booth in his 1967 book "Sequential Machines and Automata Theory". Another possible representation is the State transition table."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finite_state_machine_example_with_comments.svg
Example1: DFA, NFA, GNFA, or Moore machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DFAexample.svg
Example2: Mealy machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mealymachine_jaredwf.png
I'm working in the fully understanding of the Turing Simulator.
After that I will try to make Analogies to the Rich discussion that was started here... Related to charts, Cosmic Mind, Truth, Data, Conciousness.
It will take a little bit of time... but I think that it is worth...
Stay Tuned.
That sounds great! Maybe you can incorporate the concepts of monotonic and chrismcdude into the process. Hopefully they will see this post and realize some of the implications that may help the process. Boolean Logic would be a great approach I think. I am not quite so brainy as you probably but I can appreciate what you are proposing.
I will check out the links and try to learn more.
Cheers,
goyacobol
:)There is a weak analogy between states, yes/no and proportional relationships. Say that A*B=C. If either A or B is zero, there is no C. Both A and B must be significant for C to be significant. There are words we use to described yes/no states, but which could also apply to a continuum and might be described in a proportional relationship. For instance, Knowledge*Being=Understanding. This may not be true, but it is an idea.
As far as state diagrams, I have never looked into them. Can someone describe how a few of these concepts would correspond to a state diagram? Our first crude map is still in its infancy. I think we should add whatever we can think of to our original map, before we get more specific than language, which is going to close doors to accuracy and narrow interpretations. Right now it is important not to dismiss options before we have a large picture.
I don't think we need to be stuck with this first map, but there are still so many things we could learn about in this first step. Even if we don't discover new things, it will review and elucidate what we already know. I think the first map will be our "first step", and after it has grown it will lead naturally to what comes next.
As far as state diagrams, I have never looked into them. Can someone describe how a few of these concepts would correspond to a state diagram? Our first crude map is still in its infancy. I think we should add whatever we can think of to our original map, before we get more specific than language, which is going to close doors to accuracy and narrow interpretations. Right now it is important not to dismiss options before we have a large picture.
I don't think we need to be stuck with this first map, but there are still so many things we could learn about in this first step. Even if we don't discover new things, it will review and elucidate what we already know. I think the first map will be our "first step", and after it has grown it will lead naturally to what comes next.
hello!
thank you for the session, and all of you thank you for the comments, I'm still reading them, they help a lot.
I saw on the news last night that yesterday some child in Croatia was stroke by a lightning out of a blue sky
during a football match. So, yes it's happening already.
thank you for the session, and all of you thank you for the comments, I'm still reading them, they help a lot.
I saw on the news last night that yesterday some child in Croatia was stroke by a lightning out of a blue sky
during a football match. So, yes it's happening already.
Minas Tirith
Jedi Council Member
Yes, indeed, thanks also for all the comments. I am esp. following the commentary on this paragraph:
Could someone explain what consciousness exactly is? I searched casssessions and the Forum to see what the C's said about it, but everything is very vague ...
M.T.
Could someone explain what consciousness exactly is? I searched casssessions and the Forum to see what the C's said about it, but everything is very vague ...
M.T.
