Session 28 May 2013

[Mikey]

Regarding the map you have discussed: I think that it would get very complex very soon, at least for a 2 dimensional representation on a computer screen or printout.

I am conviced that there is some kind of interconnected "map" of concepts. But I also think that it must consist of reams of data.

So, what to use instead of a two-dimensional computer screen or paper with limited space? It seems that our brain with three-dimensional neural connections is the ideal tool for this. From a session:

A: Learn.

Q: (L) Well, we are getting ready to learn because you are going to teach us, is that correct?

A: You already have tools.

Q: (L) What do you mean we already have tools?

A: We are trying to teach you to use your most precious commodity.

Q: (L) And that is, of course, our minds?

A: You betcha!

 

[Minas Tirith]

You may want to browse Cassiopedia and see what you may find.

Thanks for the link, but "consciousness" does not have an entry.

But I think, I figured it out :)

For me, as for some others in the beginning of this thread, the concept that " truthful information" is part of "consciousness" is an entirely novel one. "Being conscious" for me so far has been an ominous term for "being more awake", but, of course, that entails "true information" aka "objective knowledge".

Here are some quotes from "Fragments of an Unknown Teaching":

The fourth state of consciousness is called the objective state of consciousness In this state a man can see things as they are. Flashes of this state of consciousness also occur in man. In the religions of all nations there are indications of the possibility of a state of consciousness of this kind which is called 'enlightenment' and various other names but which cannot be described in words. But the only right way to objective consciousness is through the development of self-consciousness. If an ordinary man is artificially brought into a state of objective consciousness and afterwards brought back to his usual state he will remember nothing and he will think that for a time he had lost consciousness. But in the state of self-consciousness a man can have Hashes of objective consciousness and remember them.

"The two higher states of consciousness — 'self-consciousness' and 'objective consciousness' — are connected with the functioning of the higher centers in man.

"One of the most central of the ideas of objective knowledge," said G., "is the idea of the unity of everything, of unity in diversity. From ancient times people who have understood the content and the meaning of this idea, and have seen in it the basis of objective knowledge, have endeavored to find a way of transmitting this idea in a form comprehensible to others. The successive transmission of the ideas of objective knowledge has always been a part of the task of those possessing this knowledge. In such cases the idea of the unity of everything, as the fundamental and central idea of this knowledge, had to be transmitted first and transmitted with adequate completeness and exactitude. And to do this the idea had to be put into such forms as would insure its proper perception by others and avoid in its transmission the possibility of distortion and corruption. For this purpose the people to whom the idea was being transmitted were required to undergo a proper preparation, and the idea itself was put either into a logical form, as for instance in philosophical systems which endeavored to give a definition of the 'fundamental principle' or from which everything else was derived, or into religious teachings which endeavored to create an element of faith and to evoke a wave of emotion carrying people up to the level of 'objective consciousness.' The attempts of both the one and the other, sometimes more sometimes less successful, run through the whole history of mankind from the most ancient times up to our own time and they have taken the form of religious and philosophical creeds which have remained like monuments on the paths of these attempts to unite the thought of mankind and esoteric thought.

"But objective knowledge, the idea of unity included, belongs to objective consciousness. The forms which express this knowledge when perceived by subjective consciousness are inevitably distorted and, instead of truth, they create more and more delusions. With objective consciousness it is possible to see and feel the unity of everything. But for subjective consciousness the world is split up into millions of separate and unconnected phenomena. Attempts to connect these phenomena into some sort of system in a scientific or a philosophical way lead to nothing because man cannot reconstruct the idea of the whole starting from separate facts and they cannot divine the principles of the division of the whole without knowing the laws upon which this division is based.

M.T.

 

[Vulcan59]

Thanks for the link, but "consciousness" does not have an entry.

Hi M.T.,

Check this out - Consciousness :)

 

[kenlee]

Some more on consciousness from the book In Search Of The Miraculous:

In ordinary life the concept 'conscience' is taken too simply. As if we had a conscience.

Actually the concept 'conscience' in the sphere of the emotions is equivalent to the concept 'consciousness' in the sphere of the intellect. And as we have no consciousness we have no conscience.

"Consciousness is a state in which a man knows all at once everything that he in general knows and in which he can see how little he does know and how many contradictions there are in what he knows.


"Conscience is a state in which a man feels all at once everything that he in general feels, or can feel. And as everyone has within him thousands of contradictory feelings which vary from a deeply hidden realization of his own nothingness and fears of all kinds to the most stupid kind of self-conceit, self-confidence, self-satisfaction, and self-praise, to feel all this together would not only be painful but literally unbearable.

"If a man whose entire inner world is composed of contradictions were suddenly to feel all these contradictions simultaneously within himself, if he were to feel all at once that he loves everything he hates and hates everything he loves; that he lies when he tells the truth and that he tells the truth when he lies; and if he could feel the shame and horror of it all, this would be the state which is called 'conscience'.

"A man cannot live in this state; he must either destroy contradictions or destroy conscience. He cannot destroy conscience, but if he cannot destroy it he can put it to sleep, that is, he can separate by impenetrable barriers one feeling of self from another, never see them together, never feel their incompatibility, the absurdity of one existing alongside another".

 

[tohuwabohu]

Regarding the map you have discussed: I think that it would get very complex very soon, at least for a 2 dimensional representation on a computer screen or printout.

I am conviced that there is some kind of interconnected "map" of concepts. But I also think that it must consist of reams of data.

Data, i think you are right in that the amount of information is overwhelming, but also I have to say that a graphic representation migh be very helpful. If I say to you that Wasilla is in Alaska, it migh not mean to you much, but if I show you the map then everything is pretty clear. So I imagine that the map should be literally a map that connects the informations just like the cities are connected by roads. Besides they do not say for nothing that a picture is worth a thousand words. So an application like that could be pretty neat. But here are the problems:

- how to arrange the informations so that it remains objective and the meaning is not lost (what should be linked, only words or phrases? what structure to use to link the data, double linked lists or something else? What kind of links to use only simple A=B or more general A is whatever B?)

- because the amount of information is enormous an application would be needed that would allow for anyone to insert a connection that he/she finds, and insert it in an objective manner that no information is lost or the meaning is distorted

- the database would have to be central so any member can contribute (say after 50 posts to prevent disinformation) and anyone would have access to the most actualized version

Well as I see it it is pretty challenging project but might be helpful because now we have to always search through the transcripts and make the connections in our minds and some links might escape our awareness or we simply forget. But using graphic representation it could be on a plate right before our eyes and we could then zoom out and zoom in and drag the map with mouse so it definitely will not be cluttered on the screen, it would be precisely like some internet maps where you can zoom in if you find interesting area and the roads will start to be visible and the streets start to be visible and houses etc.
I think it is a great idea but challenging. Especially the objectivity and clarity are hard to achieve. Alternatively some algorithm could be employed that would organize the transcripts automatically but that might prove to be even more challenging.

 

[darksai]

Regarding the map you have discussed: I think that it would get very complex very soon, at least for a 2 dimensional representation on a computer screen or printout.

I am conviced that there is some kind of interconnected "map" of concepts. But I also think that it must consist of reams of data.

Well as I see it it is pretty challenging project but might be helpful because now we have to always search through the transcripts and make the connections in our minds and some links might escape our awareness or we simply forget. But using graphic representation it could be on a plate right before our eyes and we could then zoom out and zoom in and drag the map with mouse so it definitely will not be cluttered on the screen, it would be precisely like some internet maps where you can zoom in if you find interesting area and the roads will start to be visible and the streets start to be visible and houses etc.
I think it is a great idea but challenging. Especially the objectivity and clarity are hard to achieve.

This is why Work on the Self is so important, which includes the Body, the Heart and the Mind. If you feel the need is to remember what's in the transcripts, clearing out toxins and anti-nutritious foods will make it possible to "overclock your hardware". Eliminating negative thoughts, emotional thinking and identification will free up the "cache" in your brain and hold more information that is relevant to what you're trying to focus on at any given time.

Alternatively some algorithm could be employed that would organize the transcripts automatically but that might prove to be even more challenging.

Not really, I already have a proto-data (or entity-relationship(ER), to be precise) model for this and feature ideas for an application, like being able to add relational keywords for meta-extended results by QnA and/or Session (for example, "lizzie" might give everything with "4D" and "STS", though if these relations are persistent and central, which relations get added would have to be admin'd else it'd be too chaotic). I'll try and get my design that I have so far up on the forum, though I must warn that it will be fairly "technical". It's only on paper and mostly in my head at the moment, so it'll take a little while but I'll try for next weekend, maybe do it in parts over the course of the week. If there's enough interest, and developers willing to put some time and effort in, it can be done.

 

[tohuwabohu]

Not really, I already have a proto-data (or entity-relationship(ER), to be precise) model for this and feature ideas for an application, like being able to add relational keywords for meta-extended results by QnA and/or Session (for example, "lizzie" might give everything with "4D" and "STS", though if these relations are persistent and central, which relations get added would have to be admin'd else it'd be too chaotic). I'll try and get my design that I have so far up on the forum, though I must warn that it will be fairly "technical". It's only on paper and mostly in my head at the moment, so it'll take a little while but I'll try for next weekend, maybe do it in parts over the course of the week. If there's enough interest, and developers willing to put some time and effort in, it can be done.

Yes that would be a good starting point and part of a brainstorming I think that every idea is more than welcome here. If the algorithm can comb through all the transcripts and find relations and organize them in some nice structure then it is only necessary to display the results in some human friendly fashion and we are done. I can only program in C++ and MFC and have zero experience with web based programming so perhaps I can help with some algorithms but the frontend has to be implemented by someone else if it would be a web based project.

 

[darksai]

Not really, I already have a proto-data (or entity-relationship(ER), to be precise) model for this and feature ideas for an application, like being able to add relational keywords for meta-extended results by QnA and/or Session (for example, "lizzie" might give everything with "4D" and "STS", though if these relations are persistent and central, which relations get added would have to be admin'd else it'd be too chaotic). I'll try and get my design that I have so far up on the forum, though I must warn that it will be fairly "technical". It's only on paper and mostly in my head at the moment, so it'll take a little while but I'll try for next weekend, maybe do it in parts over the course of the week. If there's enough interest, and developers willing to put some time and effort in, it can be done.

Yes that would be a good starting point and part of a brainstorming I think that every idea is more than welcome here. If the algorithm can comb through all the transcripts and find relations and organize them in some nice structure then it is only necessary to display the results in some human friendly fashion and we are done. I can only program in C++ and MFC and have zero experience with web based programming so perhaps I can help with some algorithms but the frontend has to be implemented by someone else if it would be a web based project.

I was thinking Java for the frontend because it totally eliminates any platform issues (I, for example, no longer use windows at home, but there could server issues as well), it's relatively easy and very commonly used. Assuming this would all be OK, it could then connect to cass servers, use the forum logins for credentials ("normal" members would only have read access to database, for example) where a database would have to be setup for it. Adding new sessions from formatted text, keywords and "meta"-keywords (as I like to call them) would be able to be done cleanly through the client application.

 

[Gilda0]

thank you very much for the session

 

[mcb]

...Not really, I already have a proto-data (or entity-relationship(ER), to be precise) model for this and feature ideas for an application, like being able to add relational keywords for meta-extended results by QnA and/or Session (for example, "lizzie" might give everything with "4D" and "STS", though if these relations are persistent and central, which relations get added would have to be admin'd else it'd be too chaotic). I'll try and get my design that I have so far up on the forum, though I must warn that it will be fairly "technical". It's only on paper and mostly in my head at the moment, so it'll take a little while but I'll try for next weekend, maybe do it in parts over the course of the week. If there's enough interest, and developers willing to put some time and effort in, it can be done.

This conversation has gone on long enough that I have kind of lost track of what it is about :( but it sounds as though it is related to something else we were trying to do earlier, that has also been mentioned earlier in this topic. The intent there was to track and model all the public boards, not just the transcripts board. I never officially gave up on that, but without more interest and involvement it I haven't given it priority. The two main hurdles that I encountered are:

• Coming up to speed on the visualization tool proved to be more than my meager brain could handle, even on ketones, when added to the work of doing the software and database development needed to generate the data files
• Extracting the data from the forum proved annoyingly tedious to the point where I didn't want to work on it any more

The only solution I have for the first problem is to have other people working on that aspect, and telling me what is needed. As a software developer, that is how I work, although I play an active role in the "telling."

I have a technical solution for the second problem, if it is acceptable to the forum administrators, and that is to write an SMF "mod" that will present the data in a more database-friendly form than what comes with SMF out of the box. I would base the mod code on the core SMF code, but add more flexibility. Security would be the standard SMF security, which is to say that what you could see using the mod would be the same as what you could see in the web UI, based on your login privileges. I would develop and test the mod using a clone of one of my own SMF forums -- I would not need access to the forum server or software. Doing that would free me to focus on the database itself, rather than spending all my time developing workarounds for the limitations of the SMF core features. That was frustrating.

If I haven't completely missed the point here (it wouldn't be the first time), you are welcome to continue this discussion over in the other topic linked above.

 

[Carlin]

I join with all the members of the forum in given thanks to the entire team for their tireless work to report the news of the C's and all the tremendous dynamic that forms around this event. Looking at this singular Spanish farewell "Mucho gusto", (This is my mother tongue) I had any value idea to share, until the comment of "Minas Tirith" on this issue, comments that I fully agree and I think that can also be applied to this goodbye ( sabemos que están siguiéndonos, nos da gusto tenerlos aquí)" We know you are following us, we are glad to have you here "which reinforces a sense of belonging to the group.
Keep the lamps filled with oil and multiply our talents. That's what this whole thing

 

[darksai]

...Not really, I already have a proto-data (or entity-relationship(ER), to be precise) model for this and feature ideas for an application, like being able to add relational keywords for meta-extended results by QnA and/or Session (for example, "lizzie" might give everything with "4D" and "STS", though if these relations are persistent and central, which relations get added would have to be admin'd else it'd be too chaotic). I'll try and get my design that I have so far up on the forum, though I must warn that it will be fairly "technical". It's only on paper and mostly in my head at the moment, so it'll take a little while but I'll try for next weekend, maybe do it in parts over the course of the week. If there's enough interest, and developers willing to put some time and effort in, it can be done.

This conversation has gone on long enough that I have kind of lost track of what it is about :( but it sounds as though it is related to something else we were trying to do earlier, that has also been mentioned earlier in this topic. The intent there was to track and model all the public boards, not just the transcripts board. I never officially gave up on that, but without more interest and involvement it I haven't given it priority. The two main hurdles that I encountered are:

• Coming up to speed on the visualization tool proved to be more than my meager brain could handle, even on ketones, when added to the work of doing the software and database development needed to generate the data files
• Extracting the data from the forum proved annoyingly tedious to the point where I didn't want to work on it any more

The only solution I have for the first problem is to have other people working on that aspect, and telling me what is needed. As a software developer, that is how I work, although I play an active role in the "telling."

I have a technical solution for the second problem, if it is acceptable to the forum administrators, and that is to write an SMF "mod" that will present the data in a more database-friendly form than what comes with SMF out of the box. I would base the mod code on the core SMF code, but add more flexibility. Security would be the standard SMF security, which is to say that what you could see using the mod would be the same as what you could see in the web UI, based on your login privileges. I would develop and test the mod using a clone of one of my own SMF forums -- I would not need access to the forum server or software. Doing that would free me to focus on the database itself, rather than spending all my time developing workarounds for the limitations of the SMF core features. That was frustrating.

If I haven't completely missed the point here (it wouldn't be the first time), you are welcome to continue this discussion over in the other topic linked above.

To clarify, my quote above is essentially a "new" conversation in response tohuwabohu's alternative suggestion about just organizing the transcripts, something I'm busy working on getting into postable format at the moment, which split off of the conversation about the mapping concepts which is now it's own thread.

That's quite different, particularly that it's much bigger in scope from the start, to what I have in mind, which is really just a kind of advanced sorting rather than having the goal of making a knowledge map, though one (of sorts) would naturally arise out of the data model I have planned (so far). I'll post my outline once I have decent descriptions of the core features typed up.

 

[goyacobol]

Saieden & Megan,

...Not really, I already have a proto-data (or entity-relationship(ER), to be precise) model for this and feature ideas for an application, like being able to add relational keywords for meta-extended results by QnA and/or Session (for example, "lizzie" might give everything with "4D" and "STS", though if these relations are persistent and central, which relations get added would have to be admin'd else it'd be too chaotic). I'll try and get my design that I have so far up on the forum, though I must warn that it will be fairly "technical". It's only on paper and mostly in my head at the moment, so it'll take a little while but I'll try for next weekend, maybe do it in parts over the course of the week. If there's enough interest, and developers willing to put some time and effort in, it can be done.

This conversation has gone on long enough that I have kind of lost track of what it is about :( but it sounds as though it is related to something else we were trying to do earlier, that has also been mentioned earlier in this topic. The intent there was to track and model all the public boards, not just the transcripts board. I never officially gave up on that, but without more interest and involvement it I haven't given it priority. The two main hurdles that I encountered are:

• Coming up to speed on the visualization tool proved to be more than my meager brain could handle, even on ketones, when added to the work of doing the software and database development needed to generate the data files
• Extracting the data from the forum proved annoyingly tedious to the point where I didn't want to work on it any more

The only solution I have for the first problem is to have other people working on that aspect, and telling me what is needed. As a software developer, that is how I work, although I play an active role in the "telling."

I have a technical solution for the second problem, if it is acceptable to the forum administrators, and that is to write an SMF "mod" that will present the data in a more database-friendly form than what comes with SMF out of the box. I would base the mod code on the core SMF code, but add more flexibility. Security would be the standard SMF security, which is to say that what you could see using the mod would be the same as what you could see in the web UI, based on your login privileges. I would develop and test the mod using a clone of one of my own SMF forums -- I would not need access to the forum server or software. Doing that would free me to focus on the database itself, rather than spending all my time developing workarounds for the limitations of the SMF core features. That was frustrating.

If I haven't completely missed the point here (it wouldn't be the first time), you are welcome to continue this discussion over in the other topic linked above.

To clarify, my quote above is essentially a "new" conversation in response tohuwabohu's alternative suggestion about just organizing the transcripts, something I'm busy working on getting into postable format at the moment, which split off of the conversation about the mapping concepts which is now it's own thread.

That's quite different, particularly that it's much bigger in scope from the start, to what I have in mind, which is really just a kind of advanced sorting rather than having the goal of making a knowledge map, though one (of sorts) would naturally arise out of the data model I have planned (so far). I'll post my outline once I have decent descriptions of the core features typed up.

I think it would be a great help to move this "information" to the new topic, Assembling Cassiopean Concepts. I believe you both may have pieces of the solution (even though our pieces may often seem insignificant). We sometimes think our small part will not be enough to make a difference but who knows? I am only an old COBOL language programmer with some data-warehouse experience in reporting software (Cognos). I only see through the veil darkly but I feel that we may be able to strengthen the "conduit" by accepting one another's limitations and giving each their due. If enough techies on the forum put their heads together on this project maybe we could provide a more visual picture of these difficult to understand concepts.

Our technology is meager perhaps (even our DNA?). I was just reading an old session transcript the speaks our our limited technology and it occurred to me that maybe that is why is are so frustrated:

[quote author=Session 4 May 1996]
Q: (L) How long have they been doing this?
A: 14,000 years, approximately.
Q: (L) If they have been doing it that long, obviously the ones they have taken at the beginning
have croaked and are of no use to replace anybody on the earth unless they have been replacing
people from time to time for various reasons...
A: No, their technology makes yours look like Neanderthal by comparison! Hibernation tubes...
[/quote]

Sometimes I feel like we are fighting 4th density STS (of course we're still technically STS too) with sticks and stones but maybe a sharpened stick is better than nothing. Another C's session brought up the internet:

[quote author=Session 28 October 1994]
Q: (L) What do you guys do for fun?
A: All is fun when perceived correctly.
Q: (L) Should I hook up to the computer internet to use as a source to propagate channeled messages?
A: Yes. Go for it.
[/quote]

Some more references to the possible importance of the computer:

[quote author=Session 19 November 1994]
Q: (T) The information I have would not then be whole unto itself?
A: Network. Use computer net. There are others communicating and piecing together in this way.
Q: (T) How do I retrieve the information?
A: Ask.
Q: (L) Start taking the melatonin?
A: No. On computer network.
Q: (T) Ask on the computer network how to retrieve the information?
A: No. Others ask.
[/quote]

[quote author=Session 19 November 1994]
Q: (L) What does the cosmic retrieval system retrieve?
A: Remember computer was inspired by cosmic forces and reflects universal intelligence system of
retrieval of reality.
Q: (T) This is a computer network, yes or no?
A: Strange thought pattern.
Q: (T) What you have described, on a very large scale, sophisticated...
A: Grand scale, close.
Q: (T) Can I access it through our earthly computer system?
A: In a sense, but not directly as of yet. But just wait. [Break]
[/quote]

[quote author=Session 23 December 1994]
Q: (D) That means yes. (L) In the forming of this conduit, is the conduit not only something that brings energy into us, but also
through which we can travel into other dimensions as well? Does it go both ways?
A: Learn by discovery!
Q: (L) In other words, do it! We got the program loaded for the computer net, which you told us once we got online our lives would
change suddenly and dramatically. (D) Are we not quite ready for this?
A: Discover.
[/quote]

[quote author=Session 23 December 1994]
Q: (D) Is there something we can do to help other people?
A: Access instincts, network.
Q: (D) Are you talking about the computer network?
A: In general.
[/quote]

[quote author=Session 09 June 2009]
24 February 1996
A: Networking provides solutions, and not just on the computer!!! {…} Remember, you learn on an exponential
curve, once you have become "tuned in." This means that you become increasingly able to access the universal
consciousness. Please learn to trust your increasing awareness. All who are present here are at one point or another on that
cycle, or one point or another on that cycle of progression, some further along than others. If you properly network without
prejudice, you may all wind up at the same point on this cycle. We also mean that you can access the universal
consciousness to find the answers to otherwise unseen truths…
[/quote]

Hopefully, I have not overstated the issue but I just think there are still possibilities to gain some useful output even with our Neanderthal hardware and software. Maybe it is the working together that is more important than the tools we are given to use.

Mucho Gusto, :)

goyacobol

 

[darksai]

I think it would be a great help to move this "information" to the new topic, Assembling Cassiopean Concepts.

I disagree, it would be incredibly difficult to even just follow the "conversation" if that were to happen. If there is anything relevant between the different threads, that can be referenced as needed, as is done just about everywhere else on the forum. Otherwise, it would just be too much unnecessary effort having to manually filter out the discussions of projects for which one is not participating actively in at the time.

 

[goyacobol]

Saieden,

I think it would be a great help to move this "information" to the new topic, Assembling Cassiopean Concepts.

I disagree, it would be incredibly difficult to even just follow the "conversation" if that were to happen. If there is anything relevant between the different threads, that can be referenced as needed, as is done just about everywhere else on the forum. Otherwise, it would just be too much unnecessary effort having to manually filter out the discussions of projects for which one is not participating actively in at the time.

I am just suggesting "referenced as needed, as is done just about everywhere else on the forum." could be done by focusing on the new topic area. It doesn't matter to me wether it is copying vs moved. And I don't mean that any and all other forum areas are to be ignored. I guess I am just hoping we don't miss any valuable information. It is always a filtering problem to me. I did think about the "moving" items but if you don't think your "conversation" was that important to pick up on the other thread that is fine with me.