"Sluggish" Liver issues.

[Laura]

This experiment that questions High Fat Diet Linked to Breast Cancer? is a good example of how often experiments can be hijacked because of equating junk food to whatever it is claimed to be tested. In this case it was also fat.

Good catch. I suspect that is the same key to this report.

 

[mada85]

This article reads to me like propaganda for a low fat, low meat diet.

Bile acids could be the missing link between a high-fat, Western-style diet and colon cancer, UA researchers and their collaborators have discovered.

Considering the toxicity of the average Western-style diet, if that is what these mice were eating, it's no wonder they got cancer and died. The nature and goals of the experiment suggest that they were fed a Western-style diet. There is no mention, as a control, of the action of bile acids on mice fed a non-inflammatory, truly healthy diet. Perhaps the researchers don't know what such a diet is.

I can't help wondering just what they fed those mice in addition to extremely high doses of DCA acids. Inflammation from wheat, dairy, corn, and soy, in addition to high bile acids could kill anything given long enough.

Not only that, but what about the DOC itself? Did they give the mice artificial DOC? Did the DOC enter the mices' bodies through the natural pathways, or was it introduced artifically (unnaturally)?

The mice were given artificially elevated levels of DOC, the results of which led the researchers to suggest that bile acids cause cancer (at lesat that is how this article will be spun and remembered by the MSM and its regular readers). That to me is an indicator of what one might call 'desperate science' - desperate to find a research protocol that generates a result that agrees with a predetermined program; in this case, it's the attempt to prove a link between a high fat diet and cancer.

It would be interesting to see the same experiment now being done without injecting bile acid but purely dividing mice into high fat fed, an non high fat fed, and see whether we would obtain similar results.

I agree, and that should have been the researchers' first experiment - to study the effects of fats and foods on natural DOC production, and the results thereof, before injecting the mice with more DOC than they would normally produce.

 

[Hildegarda]

Bile acids (some of them) are well-known cancer promoters and even carcenogenic agents. The report on mice is only one in the string of studies that came out in the last 30 years:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15652226

Abstract
Bile acids were first proposed to be carcinogens in 1939 and 1940. On the basis of later work with rodent models, bile acids came to be regarded as cancer promoters rather than carcinogens. However, considerable indirect evidence, obtained more recently, supports the view that bile acids are carcinogens in humans. At least 15 reports, from 1980 through 2003, indicate that bile acids cause DNA damage. The mechanism is probably indirect, involving induction of oxidative stress and production of reactive oxygen species that then damage DNA. Repeated DNA damage likely increases the mutation rate, including the mutation rate of tumor suppressor genes and oncogenes. Additional reports, from 1994 through 2002, indicate that bile acids, at the increased concentrations accompanying a high fat diet, induce frequent apoptosis. Those cells within the exposed population with reduced apoptosis capability tend to survive and selectively proliferate. That bile acids cause DNA damage and may select for apoptosis-resistant cells (both leading to increased mutation), indicates that bile acids are likely carcinogens. In humans, an increased incidence of cancer of the laryngopharyngeal tract, esophagus, stomach, pancreas, the small intestine (near the Ampulla of Vater) and the colon are associated with high levels of bile acids. The much larger number of cell generations in the colonic (and, likely, other gastrointestinal) epithelia of humans compared to rodents may allow time for induction and selection of mutations leading to cancer in humans, although not in rodents.

What concerned me very much is that I am presently taking bile acid supplements with heavy meals, on the advice often given to people with sluggish liver function or people who had their gallbladder removed. The rationale is that in the absence of gall bladder, your liver no longer concentrates the bile acids for effective digestion. But if they are this bad, why are there health situation when they are recommended?

The answer seems to be the following:

_http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C337709.html

Long-term consequences of removal of your gallbladder are related to the lack of a storage sack for bile acids. Bile is continuously synthesized by the liver. The purpose of the gallbladder is to store this greenish fluid between meals. When you eat, the gallbladder contracts, empting its contents into the small intestine, where the bile mixes with the food. If there is no storage sack (gallbladder), then the bile constantly drips into the intestine, even when no food is present. In this concentrated form, the bile acids are very irritating to the linings of the intestine. In the short term, irritation of the large intestine by bile acids often causes diarrhea - and long-term the irritation can cause colon cancer. This is the reason why cancer of the right side of the colon is more common in people who have had their gallbladders removed.

My guess is, if everything is working properly, you would have a high-fat meal, and your bladder would empty efficiently of concentrated bile acids which will get "used up" to digest the meal, without leaving much traces. Having enough fiber from vegetables, plus enough antioxidants from blueberries and other berries will further wipe them up clean, and plenty of vitamin D to protect your cells from anything. Normally, you shouldn't have high levels of bile acids just dripping into your empty intestine, or coming into it in a pill form. That's the kind of situation that would eventually cause cancer.

 

[shijing]

This experiment that questions High Fat Diet Linked to Breast Cancer? is a good example of how often experiments can be hijacked because of equating junk food to whatever it is claimed to be tested. In this case it was also fat.

Good catch. I suspect that is the same key to this report.

Yes, thanks for linking to that article Gertrudes. Among the other problems that have been pointed out, the "standard diet" mentioned in the report is never defined, and that seems to be a crucial bit of missing data.

I can't help wondering just what they fed those mice in addition to extremely high doses of DCA acids. Inflammation from wheat, dairy, corn, and soy, in addition to high bile acids could kill anything given long enough.

Not only that, but what about the DOC itself? Did they give the mice artificial DOC? Did the DOC enter the mices' bodies through the natural pathways, or was it introduced artifically (unnaturally)?

The mice were given artificially elevated levels of DOC, the results of which led the researchers to suggest that bile acids cause cancer (at lesat that is how this article will be spun and remembered by the MSM and its regular readers). That to me is an indicator of what one might call 'desperate science' - desperate to find a research protocol that generates a result that agrees with a predetermined program; in this case, it's the attempt to prove a link between a high fat diet and cancer.

It would be interesting to see the same experiment now being done without injecting bile acid but purely dividing mice into high fat fed, an non high fat fed, and see whether we would obtain similar results.

I agree, and that should have been the researchers' first experiment - to study the effects of fats and foods on natural DOC production, and the results thereof, before injecting the mice with more DOC than they would normally produce.

My guess is, if everything is working properly, you would have a high-fat meal, and your bladder would empty efficiently of concentrated bile acids which will get "used up" to digest the meal, without leaving much traces. Having enough fiber from vegetables, plus enough antioxidants from blueberries and other berries will further wipe them up clean, and plenty of vitamin D to protect your cells from anything. Normally, you shouldn't have high levels of bile acids just dripping into your empty intestine, or coming into it in a pill form. That's the kind of situation that would eventually cause cancer.

Thanks for this feedback as well -- the information Hildegarda quoted shows that there is a big flaw in the research design, which is also what Endymion points out. If the mice are being injected with abnormal amounts of DOC that run completely contrary to the way the body normally regulates its distribution, it would have the same effect as the high levels of bile acids dripping into the empty intestine (and then some). Desperate science indeed!

 

[theos]

In addition the authors of both studies are operating at the outset from the flawed belief that high fat causes cancer. They are only confirming what they already believe to be true. Any study that is based on faulty science can only lead to more faulty science.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Bile acids (some of them) are well-known cancer promoters and even carcenogenic agents. The report on mice is only one in the string of studies that came out in the last 30 years:

The answer seems to be the following:

_http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C337709.html

Long-term consequences of removal of your gallbladder are related to the lack of a storage sack for bile acids. Bile is continuously synthesized by the liver. The purpose of the gallbladder is to store this greenish fluid between meals. When you eat, the gallbladder contracts, empting its contents into the small intestine, where the bile mixes with the food. If there is no storage sack (gallbladder), then the bile constantly drips into the intestine, even when no food is present. In this concentrated form, the bile acids are very irritating to the linings of the intestine. In the short term, irritation of the large intestine by bile acids often causes diarrhea - and long-term the irritation can cause colon cancer. This is the reason why cancer of the right side of the colon is more common in people who have had their gallbladders removed.

My guess is, if everything is working properly, you would have a high-fat meal, and your bladder would empty efficiently of concentrated bile acids which will get "used up" to digest the meal, without leaving much traces. Having enough fiber from vegetables, plus enough antioxidants from blueberries and other berries will further wipe them up clean, and plenty of vitamin D to protect your cells from anything. Normally, you shouldn't have high levels of bile acids just dripping into your empty intestine, or coming into it in a pill form. That's the kind of situation that would eventually cause cancer.

Hmmm, I've been getting diarrhea and gas pains periodicallly since I'm now taking ox bile and digestive enzymes with every meal. Since I have problems with constipation, I take magnesium in the morning and evening. But since the diarrhea usually happens after a meal, I'm wondering if it's the ox bile.

I've been seeing the diarrhea as a "good thing" since it cleans me out, and I notice I can always smell a bit better afterwards (I have a reallly bad sense of smell). But perhaps it's just my irritated intestines and I need to quit taking ox bile. Sheesh. This all really is a puzzle!

 

[mcb]

...I've been seeing the diarrhea as a "good thing" since it cleans me out, and I notice I can always smell a bit better afterwards (I have a reallly bad sense of smell). But perhaps it's just my irritated intestines and I need to quit taking ox bile. Sheesh. This all really is a puzzle!

Yes, and the learning is so much fun. Really.

 

[RedFox]

Hmmm, I've been getting diarrhea and gas pains periodicallly since I'm now taking ox bile and digestive enzymes with every meal.

Did you double check the ingredients? I discovered last year that the digestive aids I where taking included gluten and dairy! I could have sworn I checked too

I guess the best thing to do would be to stop taking them and see if the problem goes away. Diarrhoea is never a good sign....it is you're body telling you it doesn't want something, and that something is irritating it. You have diarrhoea to remove something quickly that would otherwise do harm (i.e. gluten). osit
Constipation can also be a sign of something you're sensitive too (assuming you're getting enough magnesium).

 

[Gawan]

Thanks for that topic!
I'm catching slowly up with and with the new Cs session, some other topics on the forum about health and some experiments on my own I think I have a sluggish liver too.

I'm eating now every morning meat (mainly chicken) and afterwards I'm feeling pretty bad (stuffed and foggy), so that I go now for ox bile. And my experiment consisted of only eating meat in the morning. Unfortunately all these supplements are pretty difficult to get in the country I'm living in, or are too expensive, so it takes always some weeks until the supplements are arriving.

Hmmm, I've been getting diarrhea and gas pains periodicallly since I'm now taking ox bile and digestive enzymes with every meal.

Did you double check the ingredients? I discovered last year that the digestive aids I where taking included gluten and dairy! I could have sworn I checked too

I guess the best thing to do would be to stop taking them and see if the problem goes away. Diarrhoea is never a good sign....it is you're body telling you it doesn't want something, and that something is irritating it. You have diarrhoea to remove something quickly that would otherwise do harm (i.e. gluten). osit
Constipation can also be a sign of something you're sensitive too (assuming you're getting enough magnesium).

Laura mentioned in another topic these two supplements:

megazyme: _http://www.swansonvitamins.com/ET255/ItemDetail
and
ox bile: _http://www.swansonvitamins.com/NCL013/ItemDetail?n=0

 

[anart]

Hi Legolas,

Are you sure you're not just allergic to chicken? It's not uncommon.

Have you tried organic bacon in the mornings - lots of good fat and tasty too.

 

[Gertrudes]

Hi Legolas,

Are you sure you're not just allergic to chicken? It's not uncommon.

Have you tried organic bacon in the mornings - lots of good fat and tasty too.

Besides what Anart suggested, another possibility is that you could be reacting to whatever the chicken has been fed or injected with. Have you tried organic chicken?

Fwiw I used to get really foggy and sluggish after eating, in my case, red meat, but no longer. I really don't know how, but through time things just began to ease up, and I'm no longer even having digestive enzymes.

Maybe try eliminating chicken for a while, and after taking digestive enzymes for a period of time, reintroduce it to see how you react.

Unfortunately all these supplements are pretty difficult to get in the country I'm living in, or are too expensive, so it takes always some weeks until the supplements are arriving.

Have you tried international websites such as _iherb.com? I have been ordering my supplements from the US because even with shipping fees, it ends up being a lot cheaper then ordering them here. I haven't tried other international websites, but when I order from iherb I get my supplements within 2 or 3 days. It's really fast!


Added: also, similarly to you I find that many supplements are hard to find in UK (where I live), so looking internationally has solved that problem

 

[Gimpy]

Bile acids (some of them) are well-known cancer promoters and even carcenogenic agents. The report on mice is only one in the string of studies that came out in the last 30 years:

The answer seems to be the following:

_http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C337709.html

Long-term consequences of removal of your gallbladder are related to the lack of a storage sack for bile acids. Bile is continuously synthesized by the liver. The purpose of the gallbladder is to store this greenish fluid between meals. When you eat, the gallbladder contracts, empting its contents into the small intestine, where the bile mixes with the food. If there is no storage sack (gallbladder), then the bile constantly drips into the intestine, even when no food is present. In this concentrated form, the bile acids are very irritating to the linings of the intestine. In the short term, irritation of the large intestine by bile acids often causes diarrhea - and long-term the irritation can cause colon cancer. This is the reason why cancer of the right side of the colon is more common in people who have had their gallbladders removed.

My guess is, if everything is working properly, you would have a high-fat meal, and your bladder would empty efficiently of concentrated bile acids which will get "used up" to digest the meal, without leaving much traces. Having enough fiber from vegetables, plus enough antioxidants from blueberries and other berries will further wipe them up clean, and plenty of vitamin D to protect your cells from anything. Normally, you shouldn't have high levels of bile acids just dripping into your empty intestine, or coming into it in a pill form. That's the kind of situation that would eventually cause cancer.

Hmmm, I've been getting diarrhea and gas pains periodicallly since I'm now taking ox bile and digestive enzymes with every meal. Since I have problems with constipation, I take magnesium in the morning and evening. But since the diarrhea usually happens after a meal, I'm wondering if it's the ox bile.

I've been seeing the diarrhea as a "good thing" since it cleans me out, and I notice I can always smell a bit better afterwards (I have a reallly bad sense of smell). But perhaps it's just my irritated intestines and I need to quit taking ox bile. Sheesh. This all really is a puzzle!

I've had near constant diarrhea for several months now, and found it was tied to an antidepressant. :( That is the hypothesis. When following a taper protocol, I ran into problems with my brain chemistry, and had to go back on a reduced dose of the drug to even out again.

What I found was that it took a few weeks, but when not on this antidepressant, the diarrhea went away. This doesn't mean that my liver is any less sluggish in processing fats, its that as long as I'm on this drug, any kind of supplements I take go right through me without doing any good. :( When I take enzymes and ox bile, it gets so bad I can't leave the house, so I've reduced this and in some cases had to quit taking them.

Currently, I'm working with a different practitioner to test for imbalances and treat the cause of these. Once that gets going, I'll report back.

My point is that the digestive system and our brains are interconnected. Working on one can have positive results on the other, at least that is part of what I'm working to find out. :)

At this point, over the counter anti diarrhea medication doesn't always work, saccaromyces boularrdii doesn't work, and other IBS probiotics are not working. I do take Glucomannan fiber caps, which help a little.

So I'm at a kind of impasse.....my Hubby is convinced that this drug is killing me, and while I don't think that's necessarily true, I can't argue that spending my days in the bathroom is a good thing. ;)


Anyone have any ideas I might be missing? (Its tough to think with all the literal crap going on.)

 

[RedFox]

Gimpy, can I ask what anti depressant it is? Given their are a lot of serotonin receptors in the gut (more than the brain) and (if I remember correctly) serotonin has a role in digestion, it would make sense its the anti depressant.
The ox bile helping fats break down, so the gut can absorb them properly.....it could be the ox bile is causing irritation, or it could be the now ready to be absorbed fats are causing irritation due to the guts being in a different mode (due to anti depressants)....or a combination of things.
Perhaps you're not eating enough fat with meals?

 

[Gawan]

Thank you Anart and Gertrudes!

Are you sure you're not just allergic to chicken? It's not uncommon.

I considered it yesterday too and out of that reason bought a different kind of meat (turkey).
So far also with that meat I haven't done that well this morning. Lucky me, I currently have kind of holidays and can test out/leave out some different things.

Have you tried organic bacon in the mornings - lots of good fat and tasty too.

Besides what Anart suggested, another possibility is that you could be reacting to whatever the chicken has been fed or injected with. Have you tried organic chicken?

I couldn't effort it, to buy every time organic meat, unfortunately. Nonetheless, next month I like to do a test and see how it goes.

Have you tried international websites such as _iherb.com? I have been ordering my supplements from the US because even with shipping fees, it ends up being a lot cheaper then ordering them here. I haven't tried other international websites, but when I order from iherb I get my supplements within 2 or 3 days. It's really fast!

Added: also, similarly to you I find that many supplements are hard to find in UK (where I live), so looking internationally has solved that problem

That would be fast, but I'm not sure on what it depends (customs?), cause the main orders take 2-3 weeks to my experience. I also tried to get ox bile (fel tauri) at the pharmacy, unfortunately in the tablets are gluten and lactose and the liquid form contains alcohol.

Also here, next month I like to order ox bile and simply make a test with iherb, before I ordered at swanston and vitacost.

 

[Hildegarda]

Hmmm, I've been getting diarrhea and gas pains periodicallly since I'm now taking ox bile and digestive enzymes with every meal. Since I have problems with constipation, I take magnesium in the morning and evening. But since the diarrhea usually happens after a meal, I'm wondering if it's the ox bile.

It can very well be. That is listed as one side effect of too much bile acids and overdosing on bile acid supplements. People who take them regularly to replace gall bladder function do report this as well. You may want to adjust how much ox bile you are taking, especially since you already take magnesium that loosens up your bowls. I find I definitely don't need it with every meal. Once a day with the biggest fattiest meal seems enough.

OSIT