"Sluggish" Liver issues.

[Mrs. Peel]

Hmmm, I've been getting diarrhea and gas pains periodicallly since I'm now taking ox bile and digestive enzymes with every meal. Since I have problems with constipation, I take magnesium in the morning and evening. But since the diarrhea usually happens after a meal, I'm wondering if it's the ox bile.

It can very well be. That is listed as one side effect of too much bile acids and overdosing on bile acid supplements. People who take them regularly to replace gall bladder function do report this as well. You may want to adjust how much ox bile you are taking, especially since you already take magnesium that loosens up your bowls. I find I definitely don't need it with every meal. Once a day with the biggest fattiest meal seems enough.

OSIT

Well, I stopped taking the ox bile with every meal and just take a digestive enzyme. No diarrhea but the bowel movements have slowed down too. Argh. Balance is a tricky thing.

 

[Gertrudes]

I couldn't effort it, to buy every time organic meat, unfortunately. Nonetheless, next month I like to do a test and see how it goes.

I know, organic meat can be so expensive :(

That would be fast, but I'm not sure on what it depends (customs?), cause the main orders take 2-3 weeks to my experience. I also tried to get ox bile (fel tauri) at the pharmacy, unfortunately in the tablets are gluten and lactose and the liquid form contains alcohol.

Also here, next month I like to order ox bile and simply make a test with iherb, before I ordered at swanston and vitacost.

I've had that experience several times with other sites as well. Iherb ships with DHL, and that's what makes it fast, I think. However, you then have to pay a fee to DHL itself, since the cost of shipping worldwide is not included with your order. Usually I pay around £12 per order of about 7 or 8 supplements packages, roughly 14Euros. But even with that, the total cost is still less then trying to get them here, where choice is also so restricted.

Added: You'll also find plenty of products to choose from. Lets say you want to get ox bile, you'll be able to search within a variety of products and read the ingredients included in each. That way you can make an informed choice.
This is starting to sound like a salesman speech for iherb

 

[mcb]

...That is the hypothesis. When following a taper protocol, I ran into problems with my brain chemistry, and had to go back on a reduced dose of the drug to even out again...

This is a key "feature" of common antidepressant and antipsychotic prescription drugs. They are addictive, and when you go off them they can make the original problem worse. They may also do serious damage to your brain chemistry and/or other parts of your body taken long-term (though you will be assured that they are "safe").

So when tapering, do research to find if there is a preferred way to go about it for whatever you were taking, and if you discover that you are hooked in some way, recognize what is happening and that you will have to find a way to deal with it. I am having some issues with this myself, having taken a low-dose antidepressant for 14 years to help with sleep. I am doing better now, a year later, but I am still experimenting to find a better way to address the original problem, which the drug may have made worse in the long run.

 

[Gimpy]

Gimpy, can I ask what anti depressant it is? Given their are a lot of serotonin receptors in the gut (more than the brain) and (if I remember correctly) serotonin has a role in digestion, it would make sense its the anti depressant.
The ox bile helping fats break down, so the gut can absorb them properly.....it could be the ox bile is causing irritation, or it could be the now ready to be absorbed fats are causing irritation due to the guts being in a different mode (due to anti depressants)....or a combination of things.
Perhaps you're not eating enough fat with meals?

It's Cymbalta, a serotonin/nor-epinephrine re-uptake inhibitor. I do eat plenty of good fats with meals. It doesn't matter what I do or do not eat regarding the diarrhea, though. Its worse in the mornings, but lingers all day.

For example: I took two over the counter anti diarrheals (same brand) this morning, and I still have diarrhea. I'm starting to take glucomannan caps about an hour after meals to help hold things together.

 

[Gimpy]

...That is the hypothesis. When following a taper protocol, I ran into problems with my brain chemistry, and had to go back on a reduced dose of the drug to even out again...

This is a key "feature" of common antidepressant and antipsychotic prescription drugs. They are addictive, and when you go off them they can make the original problem worse. They may also do serious damage to your brain chemistry and/or other parts of your body taken long-term (though you will be assured that they are "safe").

So when tapering, do research to find if there is a preferred way to go about it for whatever you were taking, and if you discover that you are hooked in some way, recognize what is happening and that you will have to find a way to deal with it. I am having some issues with this myself, having taken a low-dose antidepressant for 14 years to help with sleep. I am doing better now, a year later, but I am still experimenting to find a better way to address the original problem, which the drug may have made worse in the long run.

Oh, I have. :D I started out doing "The Road Back" program, though I didn't buy their supplements. I do have the 2010 edition of the book that details this protocol, and its very good. (James Harper N.C. is the author)

The issue is I've been on Cymbalta at the highest dose since it was released as a drug, and the withdrawl symptoms set off other health problems: low blood pressure, and hallucinations being two of the worst. Add in the diarrhea, and it was clear to me and to Hubby that I needed a doctor's supervision to get tapered off without hurting myself.

Its just very frustrating. I like to do things on my own, but I've also learned that in this case I can't. Add in a brain with roller-coaster emotions and some days I can't stand myself. ;D

 

[Gertrudes]

You may want to adjust how much ox bile you are taking, especially since you already take magnesium that loosens up your bowls. I find I definitely don't need it with every meal.

Reading this made me think that you might also want to try reducing your daily intake of magnesium Gimpy, just for a while until you see whether it makes any difference.
If I take more then 500 mg of magnesium a day, I'll get very loose bowels, over 600, 650mg (it's hard to tell because I take it in powder), I'll get diarrhea.

 

[Gimpy]

You may want to adjust how much ox bile you are taking, especially since you already take magnesium that loosens up your bowls. I find I definitely don't need it with every meal.

Reading this made me think that you might also want to try reducing your daily intake of magnesium Gimpy, just for a while until you see whether it makes any difference.
If I take more then 500 mg of magnesium a day, I'll get very loose bowels, over 600, 650mg (it's hard to tell because I take it in powder), I'll get diarrhea.

I stopped taking any supplements at all yesterday...when the ones I took in the morning showed up undigested that afternoon.

I'm wondering if I should stay this conservative until the test results come back in about 3 weeks. I'm wondering if my digestive system is just too inflamed right now...the only one I'm still trying to use is the DGL, and that's because I chew the tablets up. Everything else goes 'whoosh'.

 

[D69]

I know, organic meat can be so expensive

I sorted that one out by talking to local hunters - in few cases it might be cheaper than meat sold by supermarkets

 

[3DStudent]

I know, organic meat can be so expensive

I sorted that one out by talking to local hunters - in few cases it might be cheaper than meat sold by supermarkets

FWIW, game meat will have a good amount of lead in it if they used lead shot. It can spread many inches from the wound so cutting it out isn't feasible. If you're going to eat game meat, it might be worth it to make sure it was shot with an arrow or lead free bullets. I ate a duck someone gave us some months ago and I got a lot of pellets in my mouth. I didn't make the connection then, other than it was an inconvenience. But it reminds me of having mercury fillings, if you're chewing or swallowing that stuff, you're getting it in your system.

 

[mcb]

Oh, I have. :D I started out doing "The Road Back" program, though I didn't buy their supplements. I do have the 2010 edition of the book that details this protocol, and its very good. (James Harper N.C. is the author)

The issue is I've been on Cymbalta at the highest dose since it was released as a drug, and the withdrawl symptoms set off other health problems: low blood pressure, and hallucinations being two of the worst. Add in the diarrhea, and it was clear to me and to Hubby that I needed a doctor's supervision to get tapered off without hurting myself.

Its just very frustrating. I like to do things on my own, but I've also learned that in this case I can't. Add in a brain with roller-coaster emotions and some days I can't stand myself. ;D

I looked up Cymbalta on worstpills.org (a subscription service) and this is a drug you need to be very careful with. Here is some of the information from WorstPills, which places it in their "Do Not Use" classification:

From WorstPills.org:

Duloxetine (CYMBALTA) for Major Depressive Disorder - Nothing Special and Possible Liver Toxicity
...
Do Not Discontinue Cymbalta Treatment Abruptly — Gradual Discontinuation Of This Drug Must Take Place Under Medical Supervision.
...
Duloxetine is classified as a serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (SNRI) or dual reuptake inhibitor. As one physician observer of drugs used to treat serious mental illness has noted, duloxetine has “dual the reuptake, triple the hype.” The other SNRI inhibitor on the market is venlafaxine (EFFEXOR).

Our major safety concern with duloxetine is the possibility of liver toxicity. The FDA medical officer that reviewed the drug found a small but statistically significant excess of discontinuations of treatment due to liver-related adverse events in patients treated with duloxetine compared to those given a placebo in clinical trials conducted before the drug was approved.
...
Blood pressure elevation is another area of concern with duloxetine. The FDA medical officer recommended that:

Patients taking duloxetine should be monitored regularly for hypertension (high blood pressure). There is evidence for a dose dependent increase in the incidence of elevated blood pressure with duloxetine treatment. These increases do not appear to pose an acute risk; however, given that the treatment of Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) is chronic in nature, patients’ blood pressures could easily drift into ranges that are associated with increased risk of heart disease and stroke. 24% of patients taking duloxetine 120-mg/day (milligrams per day) experienced elevated blood pressures versus 9% of placebo patients.
...
Abruptly stopping duloxetine treatment can result in a withdrawal syndrome that consists of the following symptoms: dizziness; nausea; headache; a sensation of pricking, tingling, or creeping on the skin (paresthesia); vomiting; irritability; and nightmare. Discontinuation of duloxetine should only be done under medical supervision.
...
There is no medical reason why you should be taking duloxetine when safer antidepressants are available on the market.
...

A major problem with using "discontinuation" data is that many people simply stop taking a drug that they don't believe is appropriate for them and they never go back to the doctor that prescribed it or in any other way report what happened. That has certainly been true for me personally. Because of this, it is not difficult to "overlook" major health risks associated with drugs.

I am not sure what to tell you about taking supplements. I experienced a somewhat similar problem last year involving a different drug. The one supplement that was safe, although I didn't realize that right away, was magnesium (in a moderate dose). You should try to find out what deficiencies Cymbalta is known to cause, and go from there. I did not come across any information about it on WorstPills.org. With some digging I did find this precaution for it at _http://www.nlm.nih.gov: "tell your doctor what nutritional supplements and herbal products you are taking, especially products containing St. John's wort or tryptophan." My guess is that you might want to avoid 5-HTP, L-tryptophan, and melatonin at the very least.

WorstPills.org is provided by Public Citizen, a watchdog group founded by Ralph Nader. I have found their information to be quite helpful for researching prescription drugs.

 

[Gawan]

A little update.

Yesterday I ate again in the morning just meat, with the same bad feeling after half an hour which lasted then for several hours. Later I ate an apple, with the same result. So I figured yesterday out, that I don't tolerate apples (or that sort), so I can cross check today bananas, because I left them out from my diet since about two weeks to see if I really tolerate them.

This morning I only ate what was left from yesterday evening (lentils, fennel), but no meat, the result: I'm doing much, much better
Somehow I suspect, that I'm hypersensitive in the morning, but over the day I tolerate more things. As always I like to do some further tests.

 

[D69]

FWIW, game meat will have a good amount of lead in it if they used lead shot. It can spread many inches from the wound so cutting it out isn't feasible. If you're going to eat game meat, it might be worth it to make sure it was shot with an arrow or lead free bullets. I ate a duck someone gave us some months ago and I got a lot of pellets in my mouth. I didn't make the connection then, other than it was an inconvenience. But it reminds me of having mercury fillings, if you're chewing or swallowing that stuff, you're getting it in your system.

BINGO ! You are totally right ! Unfortunately I figured that one out just few days ago :/.
I had that meat in my freezer for some time , but I didn't have occasion to try it until my wife made a meal out of it 3 or 4 days ago.
And of course I had a same problem as you had with chewing that little pellets :/
I will have to try another hunter.

Thank you for pointing that one out !

 

[Keit]

Had some blood tests done today and my ALT levels are a bit elevated - 47.00 U/L when the upper level is 40.00 U/L. At least for the local laboratory. I searched on the net, and there is a mention of a healthy upper level being 56 units. So not sure if there is any real reason for concern. Half a year ago the results were 19 units.

Also not sure what caused it, especially since I've been taking milk thistle (less regularly - almost out). Maybe my liver is really sluggish and high fat intake put too much pressure on it. Will ease on it from now on. I also read that the levels can be elevated by physical exercise, and had an aikido practice yesterday and didn't rest enough. But the characteristic pains and fatigue were there before, even noticed the color of bowel movements being brighter.

But I kind of wonder if it has any relation to EE as well, as in physical or emotional toxins being released (did full EE program on Saturday night). I have an appointment with a doctor tomorrow, will see what she says in relation to other results. But I would appreciate any advice on how to deal with it properly. Maybe lower the fat intake and increase the intake of milk thistle? Thanks in advance!

 

[D Rusak]

I *finally* got hold of a decent milk thistle supplement (it has turmeric and dandelion root in it too, yay) and have been taking it with meals along with enzymes (most other supplements in the morning, then others at night). I've only taken a day's worth of doses and noticed that my armpits and such are smelling, a little, er, off I am guessing this means it's working, and perhaps quickly, too?

 

[monksgirl]

One other reason I was wondering about this was because in the past few weeks, my poo has been off-color (more yellow than brown) and when I did a bit of research on it, the main conclusion seemed to be that the change in color can be indicative of a gall bladder/liver disruption -- I guess bile is the main thing that colors poo brown? Anyway, I've been following this thread and recently picked up some digestive enzymes and milk thistle, just to be on the safe side.

It can also be an indication of a rapid intestinal transit, or less bile output. You can get some oxbile to have with your meals as well.

If the skin lesion is fungal, it might take awhile longer to disappear with the topical DMSO. Another possibility is to do a trial of nystastin cream to see if it clears up.

a fast intestinal transit will leave the bile not all processed, so feces are commonly green (could be interpreted as yellowish-green); if there is insufficient bile, the feces may be clay colored or pale. The longer the transit time, the more processing time for the bile, so the more dark brown the feces will become.