The Endless Mystery of Existence Itself

[Sol Logos]

When a being loses knowledge, does that mean that this knowledge is lost on the level of universal consciousness as well?

One possible reason I see why learning never stops: If existence is a true infinity, then there is always something new in that infinity to experience and explore, never ending.

These ideas get a little muddled because how do we accumulate learning if it needs time when there's no time?

Or, similarly, how is something lost if that needs somewhere to go when there's no space for it to be lost?

I was thinking about what Joe said earlier: when we hit a paradox, it's a good sign we're thinking about it wrong, it's the wrong question, or something like that.

Maybe it's like a set of DVDs that we don't have a player for anymore. I mean, those DVD players are probably kind of rare nowadays.

So, knowledge is stored somewhere like those DVDs, and it's not lost, per se. We just need to go buy an old working player from eBay :) I guess that means the potential remains to access what we could practically say is lost (for now) but isn't, in theory, lost at all.

So, could learning be like that, too? It's there, always, and yeah, like you said, it could be infinite, but to learn, we need time. So, we've got to gear our consciousness towards that temporal and spatial realm to do it and experience all the trade-offs that go along with that.

I've been thinking those four worlds from Kabbalah have something to say about this. The first world is emanation—it's the start of creation, the first split, and thus, duality. It's got fire as its elemental force, I suppose because it's like the first spark. It maybe needs to be aware of itself, so it creates a reflection. That self-reflection, the start of thought, is the second world—it has the air element, perhaps because air could mean space between the reflection and the one being reflected. That then generates all kinds of other reflections, the third world, like the mirror is all smashed into a multitude of pieces, separated but connected; it has water as its element. You could say the ocean is like that—it's full of little droplets of water forming a single body. Then all those pieces need to be interacting with one another if there's going to be any learning happening! So that's the fourth world, the place of action, time and space, and all that. It obviously has earth as its element.

So, those four worlds are stabilized by their interdependence. But like the elemental forces, there's a fifth element, aether. In the four worlds idea, there's a world without a number, Adam Kadmon (I'm not particularly fond of the name), but the idea is like the mediator between those four worlds. So, in the analogy above, that's where maybe all the DVDs and VHSs are stored. So there's a mediator between the material and immaterial, always, somehow with a very extensive library!

It's represented by that Tree of Life thing. But for me, the interdependence of it would be better represented by a tetrahedron. It's got four points, all connected to every other point. And if you trace each inwardly, there's a fifth point at the center.

I mean, it's a nice story, and it kind of makes sense as a basic idea that seems to come up in various forms outside of Kabbalah, those elemental forces, for example. But in the end, it's just a model for understanding how it could all fit together. But as they say, the map is never the terrain. And who even knows what the right map is anyway?

 

[axj]

These ideas get a little muddled because how do we accumulate learning if it needs time when there's no time?

The necessity of some kind of time in the "eternal now" was already touched upon earlier:

Any kind of change requires a "before" and "after", or some sort of time. Is there something similar to "time" in the eternal now?

Gurdjieff even wrote that a force similar to time was responsible for our Primer Creator deciding to create the multiverse. This claim was discussed in this thread.

 

[T.C.]

For exampe, 6D beings exist in the eternal now and yet they are working towards going to 7D, which implies that there are changes happening in the eternal now. But how is change possible without some sort of time?

If the C’s are us in the future, and we are changing, and we exist in time (or that’s how we perceive it, anyway), then does that mean that how we change is how they change, even though time doesn’t exist for them?

Assuming that time exists for densities 1 through 3, is that the main purpose of the existence of those densities? That it is through projection of thoughts or actions of beings 4 through 6 D, into 3rd or below, that they interact and progress; and we and all below us are simply the reflection or representation or actualisation of their change?

 

[T.C.]

Exactly! What if all possible experiences have already been had, but then someone hits the 'delete' button. Then what? But maybe that has also been done an infinite number of times? You see the problem here!

When I was first getting acquainted with the C’s material and trying to understand it all, that’s the idea I came to. That literally everything gets learned and experienced and then starts all over again. But that doesn’t really answer the question of what the point is of everything existing, and what the point is of constantly doing it over and over again.

Luc’s point about different consciousness wave reading units experiencing the same things in different ways makes sense to me, but that doesn’t explain why anything should exist at all, as opposed to nothing existing at all.

I guess the problem with non-existence is that it is a concept, and the concept is itself a thing which exists, which then has to create its opposite: existence.

 

[axj]

If the C’s are us in the future, and we are changing, and we exist in time (or that’s how we perceive it, anyway), then does that mean that how we change is how they change, even though time doesn’t exist for them?

That is an interesting idea, though the fact that they change in 6D still seems to require a "before" and "after" in the eternal now, or some kind of time there. The C's mentioned that the eternal now is "the expanded present":

Session 18 October 1994

Q: (L) Can we say that all that exists in the material universe is, say, "x" number of years old?

A: No. It is the eternal now. Not only did happen, is happening and going to happen. The expanded presence.

Session 16 October 1994

Q: (L) What is the "expanded" present?

A: The real measure of time.

Maybe the "expanded present" refers to the equivalent of time in the "eternal now" that allows change to happen there.

 

[happyliza]

What about the concept of progress? Could this be just 3 or 4D concepts?

At our current level we see lessons and expanding our consciousness as progress.

But what if progess does not existed per say at higher levels and that it would become a 'limiting' subject needing no purpose in higher realms?

Maybe for STO/STS merging as conscious understanding as One everything just IS? Assisting etc is so natural it just IS?



Something being possible exists for those still learning thus for them is progress

Though i do like the general/soldier plus rereading books concepts. I hold those too atm

But infinite to me, although eternal and without end also denotes infinite possibilities as the idea of knowing any and every possibility it just too mind blowing. So because of that I feel the One constantly adds to its experiences. As our concept of boredom seems too ridiculous to apply there lol

 

[Cosmos]

I think there is a inherent problem for us humans in 3D to answer questions like these:

Our inherent limitations based on linear thinking and materialism.

Not saying that it is necessarily comparable but how we experience time and things that happen for example in dreams and near death experiences might give us some limited answers to questions like these?

Somehow, at least in a number of such experiences, there is no time and no materiality as we know it, yet that doesn’t seem to be a problem at all while there still can be experiences and a lot of meaningful things happening without any need for time as we know it. And we don’t experience such “timelessness“ as anything paradox at all in some of those experiences either.

Edit: Spelling

 

[bozadi]

I think there is a inherent problem for us humans in 3D to answer questions like these:

Our inherent limitations based on linear thinking and materialism.

I agree with that.

I see no problem in asking and trying to answer such questions but I think we need to acknowledge that there are some other questions with more priority. Like, why am I harming myself?

 

[bozadi]

And I think that the reason for the difficulty we suffer in answering those cosmological questions is closely related to the anwers to the simpler questions like the one I suggested. After transitioning to STO, I think, we will be very satisfactorily aware of the answers to our currently deepest cosmological questions. We will be the answer.

 

[Natus Videre]

One day, people will realize there is a higher purpose to their existence when it will become undeniable that somebody has been deceptively trying to claim the rights to their existence while they were blissfully unaware of their own purpose.

 

[tschai]

Assuming that time exists for densities 1 through 3

Not to throw a spanner into an already complicated argument- and perhaps it’s totally irrelevant, but do 1st and 2nd Density experience time? Surely not the same way as we do in 3 D, but then again we are constantly being surprised by the new things we are finding out about the denizens below us- how remarkably similar to us they are rather than different, and in some cases shockingly complex in ways we couldn’t possibly imagine.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

If something always existed, that means there’s an infinite amount of time in the past with no end. We couldn’t have crossed infinity to get to the present moment, cuz infinity doesn’t end so we would still be going forever trying to reach “now” and we would never reach it. Which means there can’t be an infinite past as such, time doesn’t make sense when you’re talking about infinity.

Another weird thing about past-present-future is that the past is just a memory, the future is yet to be, and the present is.. what exactly? Is there a true “now”? I feel like the potential future has to go through “now” to become the past, but is there even a now? How small is it? Is it definable, if you zoom in to the timeline enough can you say you found the present? Or does the potential future simply become the past, and what we consider “now” is just a very recent past?

I mean there has to be one right? How else could we make a choice - we can’t make it in the future, and the past is a record of a choice having been made, so there must be a moment of actual free will utilization, right?

Then why does the present seem to elusive? If there is no timeline because infinity makes it impossible, and the present is infinitely small and seemingly nonexistent (and yet paradoxically necessary to make any choice), then “when” are we?

Perhaps the reason the present seems so elusive is because we try to pin it into an infinitely small space between the future and the past. This idea assumes the existence of a future and a past, and if we let go of those things because they make no sense in terms of infinity, then perhaps it leads us to the same conclusion that the C’s suggest - everything is “the present”.

The question is why are we not aware of it as such? We’re not truly aware of whatever this infinitely small undefinable “present” is either, and we certainly aren’t aware of an infinite past or future, and even conceptually it creates paradoxes. These paradoxes make me think it’s our awareness that is the issue, and that’s why none of the above concepts of time “work” or make sense when examined logically and taken to their logical extremes. It’s cuz those concepts are products of our awareness, so we naturally start there when attempting to think about it. We have no frame of reference for what an expanded present is like, just like we can’t imagine 4th dimensional space and seeing an 3d object from every direction, including from the inside.

I talk about the “why does anything exist” idea with my brother on and off, and our best conclusion is that somehow it’s cuz math must exist. Like basic logic somehow can’t “not exist”, and if it does, all else follows. But then how can math exist without something to “think” the math? What came first - consciousness or logic/math? Can one exist without the other?

Of course this always leads to the same weird conclusion - does that mean that God has no choice but to exist? Like the Divine Cosmic Mind can’t choose to stop existing. It’s perhaps the one choice it doesn’t have, cuz it’s a one way street if it ever could stop existing.

So does God know “why” it exists? Doesn’t a “why” imply the option to do otherwise? So if God exists regardless of wanting to, he might as well make the best of it. He may want to experience everything there is to experience, so there is a why for just about anything, except why exist at all?

RA once said that everything begins and ends in mystery. This always slightly bothered me coming from a 6D being. What kind of “unanswered questions” do 6D struggle with? It would be fun to ask the C’s if they find some aspects of existence mysterious. Like something that if we asked them, they would genuinely say “yeah we dunno yet, we’re still working on that one ourselves”.

The idea that there may be things that only 7D knows is kinda cool. The idea that there may be things 7D can’t answer is slightly unnerving but eh, maybe some mystery is healthy at every level lol.

 

[bozadi]

RA once said that everything begins and ends in mystery. This always slightly bothered me coming from a 6D being. What kind of “unanswered questions” do 6D struggle with? It would be fun to ask the C’s if they find some aspects of existence mysterious. Like something that if we asked them, they would genuinely say “yeah we dunno yet, we’re still working on that one ourselves”.

The idea that there may be things that only 7D knows is kinda cool. The idea that there may be things 7D can’t answer is slightly unnerving but eh, maybe some mystery is healthy at every level lol.

Yes, I had the same reaction to Ra's statement about "mystery". But I'm not sure now.

I think one of the reasons for why 7D could be mysterious is because it's said to be the "unmanifested". Yes, the entire existence 1D thru 6D is somehow the manifestation of 7D, but there's some "infinite potentiality" thing about 7D. That's the source of the issue of "creativity", I think (God/Logos = Creator). This is also about "freedom". If everything was too specifically known and prescribed, that would be lacking in terms of freedom, I suppose.

I also suspect that the black dot in the white part of yin-yang might be related to this, among other things. The need for darkness and silence for meditation also comes to mind.

 

[Happy Poo]

Could be. In true infinity there is always more of everything, never stopping, maybe including new experiences?

On the other hand, could existence itself be limited by some kind of range of what it can experience or is that range unlimited as well?

And why does existence want to experience anything at all, lol. Unless it is changed by the experiences somehow.


Endlessly repeated forgetting to have endless new experiences. Elegant solution indeed! But still, the question remains what is the purpose of having endless new experiences? The answer may well be that there is no purpose, "it just is what it is".

I've been wondering alot about what the actual purpose of learning and experiencing are too.. Like what's the point of these lessons anyway. And thought that these lessons exist to create a better/improved/positive/more fulfilling existence for the creation to experience itself or something like that.
It's like, when I've learned certain lessons via experience, the reality improves and existence is more fulfilling even if these lessons are painful. But this is just too simple I know :)
Why the creation exists is just completely beyond me. And like you guys are saying, Ra speaks of things that are veiled from even them, "the mystery clad being". Very interesting and mysterious indeed.
Need to read again to find it.

 

[tschai]

The idea that there may be things 7D can’t answer is slightly unnerving but eh, maybe some mystery is healthy at every level lol.

If we had the opportunity to query the Supreme Creator “Why did you do it” and the answer was “No clue, what was I thinking?” yeah, that would be a bit much to handle.
One other thing- I notice you refer to god as “he” -no judgment mind you, I have always wondered at the need for our god to have a gender. One would think the Creator would be a perfect blend of the male and female energies, which is why duality was brought into existence in all things that are not the One and seek to achieve equality yadayadayada. When I was a practicing Catholic, I tried arguing that point with my fellow believers and it didn’t go well. Needless to say I am no longer a practicing Catholic, but I am not an atheist either. The DCM fills the void nicely and brings clarity and comfort. Along with all of you on this Forum.