The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aron, PhD.

[whitecoast]

This whole discussion reminds me of those "bigger-than-life" artists I've stumbled upon. For instance, I know opera singers who are so "sensitive" and "speshul" that they can't be bothered with anything "mundane". And for some, the "bohemian" life style gives them the excuse not to behave decently.

The best and most professional singers I know are completely normal and humble people. Usually those "sensitive" and "speshul" ones aren't that good (but they believe they are!)

This reminds me of a dear passage from Beelzebub's Tales:

"In the common presence of the [Dramatizacre], there also appear in the course of this peculiar malady seven very specific symptoms.

"The first is that, when this strange illness arises and begins to function in the presence of a being, particular vibrations are spread around him which act on those near him, as they say, exactly like the 'smell of an old goat.'
"The second is that, as a result of the change in the inner functioning of such a being, the exterior form of his planetary body undergoes the following changes his nose is held aloft, his arms, as is said, 'akimbo', his speech is punctuated by a special little cough, and so on.
"The third, that such a being is always terrified of certain perfectly harmless formations, natural or artificial, as for instance, a 'mouse,' a 'clenched fist,' the 'stage manager's wife,' a 'pimple on his own nose,' 'his own wife's left slipper,' and any number of other things.
"The fourth symptom causes him to lose entirely all capacity for understanding the psyche of beings like himself.
"The fifth consists in this, that inwardly and in his outer manifestations he criticizes everybody and everything that does not come from himself.
"As for the sixth, the data necessary for the perception of anything objective are more atrophied in him than in all other terrestrial three-brained beings.
"And the seventh and last symptom is that there arise in him what are called 'hemorrhoids,' which are, by the way, the only thing he carries with modesty.

 

[davey72]

There was a thread a few years ago with a link to a test such as this. I noticed that this test is dated from 1996. Would this be the same one?

 

[davey72]

The possibility that some narcissists would hide behind the HSP label is a real concern which we need to be careful about.

It's not just narcissists that would hide behind the HSP label - it could be used to "dress up" a whole lot of pathology both treatable and not treatable.

And while I'm on a roll here, I'm rather irritated by the "self-compassion" thing, too. Yeah, we need to understand and forgive ourselves, and stand up for ourselves (see Gabor Mate on "When the Body Says No"), but "self-compassion" can be another "narrative" to hide behind. What I notice is that many of these sorts of things get latched onto by people who want an EXCUSE for the behavior pointed out to them in feedback by others or to use it as a barrier against feedback.

My own personal definition of self compassion is knowing thyself through others, and doing the work to fully integrate, and rewire my brain.

 

[Chu]

My own personal definition of self compassion is knowing thyself through others, and doing the work to fully integrate, and rewire my brain.

Pretty much!

For me it keeps coming down to Gurdjieff being so spot on in his teachings. All these self-help books, the HSP, "self-compassion" concepts... They generally get taken too literally and become an excuse to not Work on oneself. One thing is to understand our mistakes, see that we made them due to ignorance, etc. Then comes "forgiveness" in a way. But the guilt associated with those mistakes is also useful to never want to make the same mistakes again.

I personally don't even like thinking much in terms of temperaments, or zodiac signs or whatever "template" we are each born with. Sure, they can have an effect on how we grow up, how sensitive we are. But isn't life about lessons, about learning to overcome those sensitivities or at least cope with them? Geez, even genes are said to be changeable with diet and work on the self. So, I never like it when things get blamed on traits that are inherited one way or another. I like seeing it as another challenge. Ok, I may have been born within a certain mold, but I can change that, at least a little!

Another thing that irritates me a lot about the "self-compassion" business is that IMO, one of the problems we all deal with at one point of another is TOO MUCH self-compassion (even when on the surface, we may seem too hard on ourselves.). When you live enjoying your suffering (because it is what you know and what is comfortable), you don't lack self-compassion. More often than not, we are also too hard on some aspects of ourselves, but not ruthless enough on others. So, IMO, the whole thinking behind self-compassion is pretty flawed. It should be about getting sincere feedback and developing real relationships, then taking that feedback to heart, and learning to be objective about oneself. Sometimes being less harsh in some aspects, sometimes being really harsh in others. What matters is the knowledge we acquire, the Work we put into life to be better, FOR OTHERS. In doing so, we also get some mothering and compassion in exchange, in a round-about way.

As for HSP, well, it just sounds like more of the same excuses. If life gives you lemons, you make lemonade! You don't go all sour and thinking you are "speshul".

I'm also still interested in the overlap between the HSP traits and the ones associated with the genetic conditions I've been learning about recently, particularly pyroluria. I suspect that an HSP temperament may, in at least some cases, ultimately be biochemically driven -- the fact that both are heritable and present in approximately the same percentage of the population might support that, but it would require more research to verify. This may be in line with what obyvatel has suggested above about multiple causes converging into a similar profile. Dietrich Klinghardt discusses something along the same lines in his talk, when he refers to parents who consider their kids to be 'Indigo children' when in fact they have serious medical issues that need to be addressed.

Yeah, a pretty useless search for a correlation if you ask me. HSP is as vague as calling oneself "speshul". Besides, you can inherit some genes, but their development or not depends on many other factors, such as environment, healthy loving relationships and Work on the self.

 

[lilies]

[..]
I think the issues can be better solved with KNOWLEDGE/AWARENESS and a support system.

This is what Gabor Mate talks about in "When the Body says No".

...the effects of stress on health, particularly the hidden stresses we all generate from our early programming, a pattern so deep and so subtle that it feels like a part of our real selves.

...Our immune system does not exist in isolation from daily experience. For example, the immune defences that normally function in healthy young people have been shown to be suppressed in medical students under the pressure of final examinations. Of even greater implication for their future health and well-being, the loneliest students suffered the greatest negative impact on their immune systems. Loneliness has been similarly associated with diminished immune activity... The pressure of examinations is obvious and short term but many people unwittingly spend their entire lives as if under the gaze of a powerful and judgmental examiner whom they must please at all costs. Many of us live, if not alone, then in emotionally inadequate relationships that do not recognize or honour our deepest needs. Isolation and stress affect many who may believe their lives are quite satisfactory.

Thus, it seems to me that the solution is NETWORKING, being UNDERSTOOD, sharing your trials and burdens verbally and achieving connection with those who have similar experiences and metabolizing that sort of thing by this connecting/discussing/examining process.

While all of us dread being blamed, we all would wish to be more responsible - that is, to have the ability to respond with awareness to the circumstances of our lives rather than just reacting. We want to be the authoritative person in our own lives: in charge, able to make the authentic decisions that affect us. There is no true responsibility without awareness. ...The more we can learn about ourselves, the less prone we are to become passive victims... "Trying to identify and to answer the question of stress... is more likely to lead to health than ignoring the question." In healing, every bit of information, every piece of the truth, may be crucial.

Okay, so it is very useful data to know that people are born with different temperaments. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_temperaments

And certainly, your innate temperament combined with your upbringing/early experiences, can have a heavy influence on the hidden stresses you deal with as you grow up/older. So it is VERY important to
NOT live our lives "under the gaze of a powerful and judgmental examiner" whom we must please at all costs, especially if those costs include giving up our right to express our authentic feelings and to assert our anger when our physical or emotional boundaries are invaded or violated.

Thus, it seems to me that a lot of the HSP profile has more to do with PTSD of a sort than anything else. And let's face it, this world is freaking traumatizing! And it doesn't help that we have to live through it without having experienced the total support that a child is entitled to during the formative years, that we are programmed by narcissists or narcissistic families, those "powerful and judgmental examiners" that live inside our heads.

[..]

PTSD is the key issue here, I think as well. The given examples of characteristic behaviors are all too familiar [unfortunately] and appear to show that Elaine is replicating Freud's daughter's mission, in her own way.

PTSD-components/issues - I mean the ones that are declared nigh incurable, in need of professional help during many-many years of therapy - appear to hold the PTSD-sufferer as hostage [to the devil]. These issues effectively bind the mind like the completely tied up prisoners in action movies, only "ropes" in this case are harmful thoughts tasked with keeping the mind foggy, siphon energy, limit thinking capacity and do not allow understanding the truths that set you free.

I read in Nicoll's commentaries that:

the greatest power in the Work is new understanding.

What is most liberating, unanticipated is the realization that when these bonds on the mind come off - the strongest can take some 12 years to unbind - thinking gets freed up more and more with each small victory.

Comparable to gradually unburdening an apple cart - packed with an unbelievable amount of luggage - with each weight taken off, the grokking-capacity is increased bit by bit. The new found strength is amazing.

Toward the end of the healing process the PTSD-sufferer seems to move to previously unimagined new fields of possibility, acquires some potency to-DO, gets self-transported [after a lot of suffering & cleansing work] into a wonderful new change-room, where finally the space is given to present a new, improved version of self.

I never thought this was possible. I already buried my hopes and resigned, accepted the inevitable: the incurable prognosis. That was a dark picture of future existence. The fights with this black thing were the worst, stalemates and then taking losses was disheartening, it destroyed hope. Truly comparable to a years-long exorcism, battle of wills.

Then doing EE last Monday and Thursday I realized that during the years I slowly forgot putting my mind into Beatha - channeling mental power into the breathing - "breathing in life" "you are exhaling all those things you don't need", the toxins I equated with the strongest attachment.

There is that sick little icky wretched thing in the last Harry Potter movie, that comes out of him, has poorly developed body and withers away slowly, that lizard-essence of the dark wizard Voldemort.

Mine came out [before my minds eye] in form of charred, broken-up cinders, accompanied by thick streams of black smoke during the out-breath. I visualized this black smoke coming out before, wrote about here in the forum years ago, but something was always held back. Also, near the announcement of the EE exercise years ago, I wrote here about that growling death-mask demonic thing I had to wrestle after an EE session in a semi-sleep state, during which fight I slowly was forcing my hand toward its throat then it saw, I had become too strong, so it fled.

This strongest [unexorcisable] attachment however I could never expunge, until now, it seems. It was always palpable [inactive] and woke up to try feed in 7 to 10 days periods. Now I have to wait a month to see if its gone for good. Already I feel none of its urges whatsoever just emptiness at that place[of mind] when feeling around there. Does this mean normal? Am I finally getting normal after long years of hopeless, resigned battle?

 

[Laura]

PTSD-components/issues - I mean the ones that are declared nigh incurable, in need of professional help during many-many years of therapy - appear to hold the PTSD-sufferer as hostage [to the devil]. These issues effectively bind the mind like the completely tied up prisoners in action movies, only "ropes" in this case are harmful thoughts tasked with keeping the mind foggy, siphon energy, limit thinking capacity and do not allow understanding the truths that set you free.

Indeed. And reading "When the Body Says No" is a REVELATION as to how completely we can lie to ourselves about our own damage and ongoing stress.

 

[Mal7]

The HSP label is used too loosely IMO based on Aron's self test. A majority of questions in that test refer to being overwhelmed. Sufferers from PTSD in its various forms would very likely fall in the HSP category based on that self- test. Schizotypes would belong too. So would others who are sensitive in the way of being able to pick up on subtleties AND not learned how to deal with it yet. Those who have learned to deal with their "sensitivity" would not qualify for a HSP any more. Aron has conflated being overwhelmed with being sensitive from the indications of the test - and that IMO does a disservice in terms of better understanding of the issues involved.

This is a really good point, thanks.

I suppose then that the issue I have is purely inner considering. This can be very problematic in terms of social relationships. The way this manifests is that I can be very quiet around others which I'm sure can make them feel as if I'm uninterested in what they have to say and uninterested in speaking with them. In short, I need to stop doing this because it's hurtful to others and myself.

I have some reservations about the value of consciously willing oneself to be less quiet in social situations. On the one hand, it could be a good thing. You could in some social situation push yourself to speak up somewhat more than usual. Social bonds could be strengthened, with other people realizing that you are interested in what they have to say, and are willing to be a contributor to the conversation. By pushing your comfort zone of how much you take an active part in a conversation, you would gain the satisfaction of achieving a goal, and contributing more in future situations would become easier.

On the other hand, I think if others feel you are not interested in them just because you are very quiet, then that is their error of judgment, which you are not responsible for. If they actually go to the extreme of taking offence, or of assuming you have some kind of deficiency of character or intellect because you are very quiet, then perhaps those are "highly insensitive" people with whom time spent developing social bonds might not be the ideal expenditure of energy. Expectations of how talkative people should be in social situations also differ between cultures, e.g. there is the stereotype of Americans as constantly talking and never shutting up, while some other cultures do not perceive being silent as any kind of rebuff or sign of disrespect or disinterest.

I think being a good listener and processor of what other people are saying has its own value, and people appreciate being listened to and heard even if the audible level of conversation is largely going in one direction. When there are over 6 billion people in the world with whom one could potentially have social interactions with, I think just turning up to a social situation or being in the same room with some particular person or persons can be taken as a sign that one is interested in them.

 

[Oxajil]

Thanks a lot for your comments Laura. I watched Gabor Mate's presentation yesterday, and I can definitely recognize myself in what he said. Overall, I do think I'm more of the repressing kind of person. My mom being mostly stressed out (nonetheless does express her feelings which I guess is healthier for her) I think has played a role in me repressing rather than sharing, as sharing would not only bring more of a burden to her, but she often would also stress me out more when I share. My dad being more of the repressing/people pleaser/anger outbursts kind of person, has surely also had its effects on me.

I do think that having moved to sharing things with the network, friends (some of them students) has been helpful to me when it comes to expressing my difficulties/burdens and receiving understanding, support and feedback, but I see that there is more room for me to do so.

I can also see how I've been taking a wrong look at some things. Like Gabor said, the point is not to not help/be there for other people, but to take care of oneself while doing so. And that there is nothing wrong to have a me-time now and then. I do have the tendency to bite off more than I can chew, and as Gabor said: the body will say no, if you didn't. And that altogether (doing more than I can + not sharing) could've affected my immune system in the last couple of years. I think that was especially the case during my pre-master year when I had to do a lot, and was mostly lonely and not sharing a lot.

Just yesterday I was asked by a workgroup-member if I could come on Monday and work on some things, I really wanted to take a break on that day, but nonetheless said ''Yea, I'll be there.'', so I think this is the right period for me to practice a bit of negotiation, keeping my own needs in mind as well, or as Gabor said: defend my own boundaries. I'll also be networking more on these issues as you suggested, and will get the book ("When the Body says No") also.

I do have a couple of questions that are on my mind:

- When does sharing one's burdens with others become more of a ''whining'' thing? Would that be when a person struggles too much, and does little to do anything about it, regardless of feedback?
- When does ''getting over oneself'' come into place? Would that be when a person is prone to be stuck in a certain narrative that halts him/her in actually doing something that could help her/himself?

I guess what kind of keeps me from sharing too much in some things, is that I wouldn't want to come across as too whiney, and thought it might just be a case of having to get over myself and just do the things I need to do that are in front of me. But I guess, it's not as black and white as it is, and that by sharing one's burdens, listening to other people's experiences etc. makes the burden less heavy, which would make it a win win situation for everyone. I think I have a program that's afraid to become a burden, in a way, or to be perceived as whiney. I also think what plays a role is wanting to come across as if having it all under control, therefore being more likeable to others. Showing otherwise, could mean loss of that. But what struck me was what Gabor said on this: that you're more important than your attachments, and that your true friends will be understanding. Lots of food for thought, thanks Laura and everyone else.

 

[Laura]

Do read the book. It's available in Kindle so ya'll can have it instantly if you have one of those thingies.

 

[truth seeker]

I have some reservations about the value of consciously willing oneself to be less quiet in social situations. On the one hand, it could be a good thing. You could in some social situation push yourself to speak up somewhat more than usual. Social bonds could be strengthened, with other people realizing that you are interested in what they have to say, and are willing to be a contributor to the conversation. By pushing your comfort zone of how much you take an active part in a conversation, you would gain the satisfaction of achieving a goal, and contributing more in future situations would become easier.

On the other hand, I think if others feel you are not interested in them just because you are very quiet, then that is their error of judgment, which you are not responsible for. If they actually go to the extreme of taking offence, or of assuming you have some kind of deficiency of character or intellect because you are very quiet, then perhaps those are "highly insensitive" people with whom time spent developing social bonds might not be the ideal expenditure of energy. Expectations of how talkative people should be in social situations also differ between cultures, e.g. there is the stereotype of Americans as constantly talking and never shutting up, while some other cultures do not perceive being silent as any kind of rebuff or sign of disrespect or disinterest.

I think being a good listener and processor of what other people are saying has its own value, and people appreciate being listened to and heard even if the audible level of conversation is largely going in one direction. When there are over 6 billion people in the world with whom one could potentially have social interactions with, I think just turning up to a social situation or being in the same room with some particular person or persons can be taken as a sign that one is interested in them.

Dunno. I guess it depends upon what effect the behavior has on one's life overall an the lives of others. While I do think that there are people who are going to be more or less verbal than others, if the tendency to be quiet is little more than a coping mechanism that prevents true engagement with others, then it neither serves the self or others but rather just reinforces the behaviors. In other words, it's entropic and is really 'just' a an old mechanism designed to protect me in the past but hold me hostage in the present.

With me, I feel far more comfortable when speaking with one or maybe two people but when there's a group, the feelings of 'not safe' come up which triggers an avoidance response. I watched the Mate 'When the body says no' video and as well as another one he made on attachment. In the second one, he tells a story about how he was left by his mother at a young (pre-verbal) age with some strangers. This really resonated with me because I was also left by my mother for some time in another country to stay with my aunt somewhere between the ages of one and a half to three.

He went through the stages of what happens to the child when something like that occurs and the thing he said which closely mirrrored my own experience is that he could not look at his mother when she returned. What I was told by family members is that when my own mother returned, I didn't recognize her. While it's natural for children of that age to not remember, there was probably an emotional impact on me as that child (and now as an adult) in terms of avoidance. What may have further impacted me is staying with a care giver that wasn't emotionally available. The (later) memories I have of my aunt is that she was a miserable and controlling person. My mother wasn't miserable, but she too was emotionally unavailable and was difficult to engage with on any level but a very surface one. At the same time, she was needy and thus had little ability to appreciate people's boundaries.

That was just to give some background, but the point is that if being withholding emotionally has only served to make the behavior worse over time, then I'm only stagnating. The biggest obstacle I find is that often when I try to push against these avoidance boundaries, a visceral reaction can occur leading all the way to anxiety attacks which feel scary. I 'think' I'm moving in the right direction but at the same time, it can feel as if I'm fighting something way more 'powerful' than myself.

I'll be reading the book to see how I can navigate this. Hope that helps.

Edit: added a sentence for clarity

 

[Laura]

I have some reservations about the value of consciously willing oneself to be less quiet in social situations. On the one hand, it could be a good thing. You could in some social situation push yourself to speak up somewhat more than usual. Social bonds could be strengthened, with other people realizing that you are interested in what they have to say, and are willing to be a contributor to the conversation. By pushing your comfort zone of how much you take an active part in a conversation, you would gain the satisfaction of achieving a goal, and contributing more in future situations would become easier.

And that would be an act of external considering.

On the other hand, I think if others feel you are not interested in them just because you are very quiet, then that is their error of judgment, which you are not responsible for. If they actually go to the extreme of taking offence, or of assuming you have some kind of deficiency of character or intellect because you are very quiet, then perhaps those are "highly insensitive" people with whom time spent developing social bonds might not be the ideal expenditure of energy.

Which would be an example of internal considering.

 

[luke wilson]

- When does sharing one's burdens with others become more of a ''whining'' thing? Would that be when a person struggles too much, and does little to do anything about it, regardless of feedback?

My 2 cents.

I think the boundary between 'sharing' and 'whining' is different for different people and so you should use your judgement. It's all about relationship building and what level a relationship is at, if it's positive or negative i.e. you shouldn't just share anything with anyone and definitely not with those who don't have your best interests at heart.

I think if you are feeling yourself get to a place where you might consider yourself as 'whining' then seek some external validation regarding whether that is the case, then make the right choices about what you'll do about it if that's the case.

In my view, reading your posts, I have never got the vibe of whining so I don't think it's something you have to worry about. If anything I have got the impression that you maybe don't say as much as you should say... part of it could be because you have it all together, maybe you already know the answers or maybe you just prefer to listen and take a back-seat approach. If the lack of sharing is something that you feel is affecting you negatively, then by all means, please share and see what happens. Maybe sharing is not only about getting answers that will enable you to move forward but also serves other emotional needs, like the need to be heard, for others to consider you and what you are experiencing, for one not to feel alienated/isolated etc.

- When does ''getting over oneself'' come into place? Would that be when a person is prone to be stuck in a certain narrative that halts him/her in actually doing something that could help her/himself?

my 2 cents.

I think so. I think we have certain narratives that we tell ourselves, that deep down we know the story we are telling ourselves is keeping us locked up and unable to go to a more fulfilling situation, but nonetheless we are unable to overcome it. How does one get over themselves? I think practise and a willingness to do so. Just pick something that you think applies and take a leap of faith, then see what happens.

For example, if you feel you need to get over yourself regarding sharing, then share something with those you feel safest with and see what happens.

Sometimes it amazes me how it's relatively easy to see how other people can navigate through what they are experiencing but next to impossible to do the same for ones own experiences.

Oxajil, my advice would be

1) Share more.
2) Learn from mistakes and don't be afraid to make mistakes, just don't go making crazy mindless errors. :)
3) Don't be ruled by a perfection problem.
4) Try and speak up for yourself more but be mindful of other people. Make a goal, next time you are faced with such a situation, just do it and see what happens.
5) Listen to your body to know when you need to rest/recuperate.
6) Know that all the above won't make things perfect. As long as you're making decisions based on what you feel is the right direction, then that should be good enough!

The above is what I think and I am not sure if it aligns with your thoughts! Maybe other people may have more to contribute.

 

[Oxajil]

Will definitely get the book. :)

Thanks a lot for your feedback luke wilson. I just came from work, and during the day I've been thinking about my life so far. I think that over the years, I have been taking steps when it comes to sharing more with others, in the way of venting, or in the way of asking for help/feedback/support, it seems that sometimes I forget to vent, and I just take it all in, which is a bad thing. So this was a good reminder for myself that when things get too much, there's always a way to discuss things with others and vent a bit. I know that my fellow students have it hard sometimes too, sometimes we all talk about the stress it can put on you, not just coming from an exam period, but also the homework they give, which can be loads of! So yea, I just need to keep in mind, to vent now and then, and hopefully the book will continue to give me more clarification.

In reality, I actually have it better off when it comes to work and my current internship, I don't have to work too much, yet the salary is pretty okay, plus my boss and colleagues are kind and understanding. The same goes for my supervisor and fellow intern, even though yes they might expect a bit too much from me, and in this case, like you said I just need to speak up for myself more, and also be mindful of them but accordingly, kind of find that balance. But I'll probably have a better idea when I've finished the book. Thanks for your advice luke.

 

[luke wilson]

Will definitely get the book. :)

Thanks a lot for your feedback luke wilson. I just came from work, and during the day I've been thinking about my life so far. I think that over the years, I have been taking steps when it comes to sharing more with others, in the way of venting, or in the way of asking for help/feedback/support, it seems that sometimes I forget to vent, and I just take it all in, which is a bad thing. So this was a good reminder for myself that when things get too much, there's always a way to discuss things with others and vent a bit. I know that my fellow students have it hard sometimes too, sometimes we all talk about the stress it can put on you, not just coming from an exam period, but also the homework they give, which can be loads of! So yea, I just need to keep in mind, to vent now and then, and hopefully the book will continue to give me more clarification.

In reality, I actually have it better off when it comes to work and my current internship, I don't have to work too much, yet the salary is pretty okay, plus my boss and colleagues are kind and understanding. The same goes for my supervisor and fellow intern, even though yes they might expect a bit too much from me, and in this case, like you said I just need to speak up for myself more, and also be mindful of them but accordingly, kind of find that balance. But I'll probably have a better idea when I've finished the book. Thanks for your advice luke.

No problem! :)

 

[lilies]

Reading this exciting interview game me "Aha!"-moments:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/2/15/dr_gabor_mat_when_the_body

So I started the book. Thank You!