"The Prayer of the Soul" Translations

Chu

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Legolas said:
hithere said:
Just wondering: The phrasing "Be My Daily Bread" refers to a form of sustenance associated with inflammation and diverse health issues. It destroys the rythm of the prayer to insert "buckwheat bread". Any thoughts on this?
Lol. :)

I thought about something similar a longer time ago, but imo it is really meant symbolically.
I agree with the replies above. From having taught the program for about a year now, I can tell you that hardly anybody finds it weird. People are used to "Be my Daily Bread". The rare ones who don't like it usually replace "Bread" with "energy" or "nourrishment". It provides with a good opportunity to discuss the meaning of that verse. The EE practitioners that are on the diet also joke about it and say "Be my Dialy Blinis" ;D
 

Jefferson

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Aragorn said:
Jefferson said:
Aragorn said:
Inspired by the supermoon today (where I live it's actually too cloudy to see it ) I came up with a Finnish translation of the POTS. It goes like this:


"Sielun Rukous

Oi Jumalainen Kosminen Mieli
Koko Luomakunnan Pyhä Tietoisuus
Sydämessä kannettu
Mielen hallitsija
Sielun pelastaja
Asu minussa tänään
Ole jokapäiväinen leipäni
Niin kuin minä annan leipää muille
Auta kasvattamaan tietämystäni
Koko Luomakunnasta
Selvennä silmäni
Voidakseni Nähdä
Selvennä korvani
Voidakseni kuulla
Puhdista sydämeni
Jotta voin koskettaa ja rakastaa
Oikean Olemassaolon Pyhyyttä
Jumalainen Kosminen Mieli"

Happy supermoon everyone! :)

EDIT: Changed the word 'ymmärtää' to 'koskettaa'. I'd like to use the word 'tuntea', but then the word 'Pyhyyttä' would have to be 'Pyhyyden', and since the word 'rakastaa' requires 'Pyhyyttä' there's no way around it except with changing the word to this one. The word 'koskettaa' means to touch or to feel. I'll have to think about this and see if I come up with another solution.

Aragorn,
In my opinion this is a clear and well done translation. My mother tongue is English but I've been told that my Finnish is close to a native (although I don't feel that way, myself, although I think in Finnish when I speak it).

Interesting use of "koskettaa" - my question how close is that to tietää, ymmärtää, to really know? If one can touch something, can you really know something? "Koskettaa" in my mind evokes the connotation of emotion, as in "touching", for example "it touches me <emotionally>" but also the fact the root word is "touch" it has that concrete, practical sense to it - so I can see why you would consider that word.

The word "pelastaja", which is a direct translation of "saviour", is the only word in the whole POTS that sticks out for me, at least as first, as my religious programming would get stirred by this word. As for all of my life, "pelastaja" = "saviour" =Jesus via atoning blood shed to the ground. It stands out even more for me in Finnish as I have heard loads of conservative-lutheran sermons in Finnish while I have lived here, until I gave up that conservative christian belief system completely some time at the end of 2009, even though I probably didn't believe with my heart in that kind of Christianity since probably 2006.

I have always meant to go the thread (among many intentions coming up short) about the POTS and ask for my clarity around that word "Saviour" . I have always thought of it as more as "developer" of the soul but that sounds too impersonal and business-corporate like. :)

These are just some initial thoughts, and I will try and and get back to this some time (read: huge procrastination program set in place :) )
Thanks Jefferson for your constuctive comments. The word 'pelastaja' was a good find, I agree, it doesn't 'taste' right. I've thought about this, and a better word could be 'vapahtaja', what do you think? As for the ending with the word 'koskettaa' - it's a very tricky sentence to translate. I've thought about it quite a lot today, but can't come up with a perfect solution. One option would be to use the word 'aistia' - this seems to be the best option right now.


With these changes it would look like this:

"Oi Jumalainen Kosminen Mieli
Koko Luomakunnan Pyhä Tietoisuus
Sydämessä kannettu
Mielen hallitsija
Sielun vapahtaja
Asu minussa tänään
Ole jokapäiväinen leipäni
Niin kuin minä annan leipää muille
Auta kasvattamaan tietämystäni
Koko Luomakunnasta
Selvennä silmäni
Voidakseni Nähdä
Selvennä korvani
Voidakseni kuulla
Puhdista sydämeni
Jotta voin aistia ja rakastaa
Oikean Olemassaolon Pyhyyttä
Jumalainen Kosminen Mieli"
Hi Aragorn,

The word "vapahtaja" is excellent. Just think of the root "to become free, to liberate", maybe the POTS could read "liberator of the soul" instead of "savior of the soul". Pelastaja really connotes savior (to me and I think in the religious world of Finland as 90+% go through Lutheran confirmation at age 15) saviour = Lord and Savior = Jesus = son of man atoning for our sins, or saving us from death and damnation and making us acceptable to God.

"Aistia" stood out for me as soon as I saw it and made me think for a bit - the word brings up visions of sensing or feeling, in some way using the 5 senses... but does it connote thinking (a.k.a. prefrontal cortex usage)? how does it compare to "ymmärtää" or "tietää" - it is more creative of a word, likely more expressive than those fairly overused words of "ymmärtää", and "tietää". It is more poetic, indeed. Could one more verb be added in there for clarification to the POTS such as "jotta voin aistia, tietää ja rakastaa"?



Another topic just came to me today - a Finnish student asked me to show the following documentary to the class in our auditorium here at the university I teach at here in Finland
http://dotsub.com/view/c920fc3e-d167-4c53-8392-984ad30ebec5 ....

I have brought alternative subjects into the classroom, and introduced pathology and ponerology as part of our modules of study. Right now the group as part of its study into Leadership and Management topics, is doing an exercise related to psychopathy. However, I am careful not to give too much 'credence' to the zeitgeist movement, although what those Finns are saying in the trailer do hold water or "pitää paikkansa". Any thoughts or links on usefulness as a source? I went through http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6515.0
and most had positive experiences with the video, including myself, but the main thing for me was it spurred me on to further research.

Just went off on a bit of a tangent there Aragorn, from FOTCM to upcoming Zeigeist-movement documentary being released in by Finnish chapter of Zeitgeist movement on April 4th.

Jefferson
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Jefferson said:
Hi Aragorn,

The word "vapahtaja" is excellent. Just think of the root "to become free, to liberate", maybe the POTS could read "liberator of the soul" instead of "savior of the soul". Pelastaja really connotes savior (to me and I think in the religious world of Finland as 90+% go through Lutheran confirmation at age 15) saviour = Lord and Savior = Jesus = son of man atoning for our sins, or saving us from death and damnation and making us acceptable to God.

"Aistia" stood out for me as soon as I saw it and made me think for a bit - the word brings up visions of sensing or feeling, in some way using the 5 senses... but does it connote thinking (a.k.a. prefrontal cortex usage)? how does it compare to "ymmärtää" or "tietää" - it is more creative of a word, likely more expressive than those fairly overused words of "ymmärtää", and "tietää". It is more poetic, indeed. Could one more verb be added in there for clarification to the POTS such as "jotta voin aistia, tietää ja rakastaa"?
I see what you mean, but I don't think we should add any more words to the original text structure. However, I think that I may have been wrong: it might be that we could use the word 'tuntea' with the conjugation 'Pyhyyttä' after all. This is something that I will have to check with an expert. Then it would become: "...tuntea ja rakastaa Oikean Olemassaolon Pyhyyttä".

Another topic just came to me today - a Finnish student asked me to show the following documentary to the class in our auditorium here at the university I teach at here in Finland
http://dotsub.com/view/c920fc3e-d167-4c53-8392-984ad30ebec5 ....

I have brought alternative subjects into the classroom, and introduced pathology and ponerology as part of our modules of study. Right now the group as part of its study into Leadership and Management topics, is doing an exercise related to psychopathy. However, I am careful not to give too much 'credence' to the zeitgeist movement, although what those Finns are saying in the trailer do hold water or "pitää paikkansa". Any thoughts or links on usefulness as a source? I went through http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6515.0
and most had positive experiences with the video, including myself, but the main thing for me was it spurred me on to further research.
I just recently watched this trailer. Based on that, it's hard to tell what kind of documentary it is - the trailer didn't make it clear what they are trying to say. So, I guess we will have to wait and see. But I felt, that the things that was said in the trailer were quite okay, and the topics were a bit different compared to the Zeitgeist movies. It's peculiar that they want to marke it as a 'Finnish Zeitgeist movie', maybe that's just a way of promoting the thing? Having said that, I have a feeling that this documentary is going to be a disappointment. I hope I'm wrong. :)
 

Jefferson

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
I thought I would share this on the forum just in case anybody outside the translation group may want to comment.

by Aragorn:
I was just about to post the Finnish POTS version to the forum, when something caught my attention:

The phrase: Mielen Hallitsija

I'm not sure if the word 'hallitsija' is the optimal one, it tastes a bit manipulative. There was a recent discussion about this phrase on the forum here: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=21925.msg232132#msg232132

What came to my mind was the word 'valtias', then the phrase would become:

[...] Sydämessä kannettu,
Mielen valtias

The word 'valtias' is used in the Bible too, when they talk about God.

What do you think?

Good point about the word "Hallitsija" - the word did stand out for me a bit, but it didn't seem too overpowering, "ruler"="hallitsija"

Good find with "valtias"!

I went throught the thread below and I think this is just more an issue of semantics of the Finnish language: what picture comes to mind when saying "hallitsija" ? Like you say it can carry a manipulative tone, but the same in English, does "ruler" have a more manipulative tone than "lord", imagine "Lord of the mind" does that say the same thing?

"valtias" is a smooth word, a smooth poetic picture comes to my mind, but does it capture the essence of "ruler"? "valtias" means more like "lord" so it would be like saying "lord of the mind"
"kaikkivaltias" from sermon-like language means like supreme being or "almighty", such as "kaikkivaltias jumala" = almighty god.

Therefore there are 2 things
1) I would say "valtias" and "hallitsija" give a similar meaning
2) valtias sounds more smooth, but to the "believers" it may smack of blasphemy as valtias has been reserved in sermon/bible language to refer to God Himself Lord Jesus Christ, not to the mind....

But I would say, although we attempt to apply external consideration, that our focus is not whether conservative christians are offended or not. Thus I lean towards "valtias".


Jefferson
 

Psalehesost

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Aragorn said:
Psalehesost said:
thorbiorn: For my Swedish translation, I had the following thoughts on the translation of "Of" in "Of All Creation": Of can be translated into "om", but "om" has a more limited meaning the same as "about", and "of" can also mean "av"/"af". I considered which to use ("Om" or "Av"), and choose the latter because I thought it gives a more "expansive" and inclusive meaning; the knowledge is not just about creation, it is part of it, and comes from it. I tried "Om Hela Skapelsen" in my mind, but to me it felt too "limited". Is this also relevant for Danish?

(there were more things I was thinking of comparing and writing my thoughts about, but before tackling those, I'd better get some feedback from another swede as to how those things "feel" in Swedish, because my prior experience with things like prayers and such in Swedish is pretty much non-existent. so that will be posted later)
Hi Psalehesost, since my second language is Swedish I had a look at the Swedish translation too. I have made a couple of suggestions of how to change it. Your text, where I've changed it, appear in brackets.


"Själens bön"

Å Gudomliga Kosmiska Sinne (Medvetande), [1]
Heliga Medvetenhet i All Skapelse
Buren i hjärtat
Härskare av sinnet (medvetandet) [1]
Frälsare av Själen
Lev i mig idag
Var mitt Dagliga Bröd
Så som jag ger bröd åt andra
Hjälp mig växa i kunskap
Om Hela Skapelsen
Rensa mina ögon
Så att jag må Se
Rensa mina öron
Så att jag må höra
Rena mitt hjärta
Så att jag må känna och älska
Heligheten av det Sanna Livet [2]
Gudomliga Kosmiska Sinne

(Sann Existens Helighet
Gudomliga Kosmiska Medvetande)

1) 'Kosmiska Sinnet' seems to be more commonly used as a translation of 'Cosmic Mind', see: _http://paranormal.se/topic/svenska.html

2) It is my understanding, that the third last and second last phrase are connected together, 'know and love' points to 'Holiness of True Existence'
I've updated it - was due for some time, but pending changes were small (replacing "Så att" with "Att", contrary to my old reasoning - this is the way it flows when I actually use it, and while it felt a little bit archaic at first, it became natural by itself and feels cleaner) - also making your first suggested change (thanks!). The prayer is now simply the way it is sounded out in my mind when so is done in Swedish. Using Sinne, now that I'm getting used to it, gives it a closer feel to the English version, so a clear improvement if the same goes for others.

As for your second suggested change, it does work that way (connecting it) the way I wrote it as well - though it's perhaps a bit more ambiguous (easier to think the prayer either way if you aren't used to it rather than seeing the connection). I also don't like replacing "Sann Existens" ("True Existence") with "det Sanna Livet" ("the True Life"), as it is less close (it looks better in itself, but I don't think it works better) and feels more limited (where "true existence" makes me think of Being and STO and everything connected to it without connection to time or specific events). The alternative used in the Norwegian and Danish translations (in Swedish, Heligheten av Sann Existens, which doesn't look/flow the best to the eye but works as well in practice when you feel it, and less ambiguous with the connection) seems a good compromise, and I've changed it accordingly for now - thoughts welcome.
 

Blacki

Dagobah Resident
Psalehesost said:
Aragorn said:
Psalehesost said:
thorbiorn: For my Swedish translation, I had the following thoughts on the translation of "Of" in "Of All Creation": Of can be translated into "om", but "om" has a more limited meaning the same as "about", and "of" can also mean "av"/"af". I considered which to use ("Om" or "Av"), and choose the latter because I thought it gives a more "expansive" and inclusive meaning; the knowledge is not just about creation, it is part of it, and comes from it. I tried "Om Hela Skapelsen" in my mind, but to me it felt too "limited". Is this also relevant for Danish?

(there were more things I was thinking of comparing and writing my thoughts about, but before tackling those, I'd better get some feedback from another swede as to how those things "feel" in Swedish, because my prior experience with things like prayers and such in Swedish is pretty much non-existent. so that will be posted later)
Hi Psalehesost, since my second language is Swedish I had a look at the Swedish translation too. I have made a couple of suggestions of how to change it. Your text, where I've changed it, appear in brackets.


"Själens bön"

Å Gudomliga Kosmiska Sinne (Medvetande), [1]
Heliga Medvetenhet i All Skapelse
Buren i hjärtat
Härskare av sinnet (medvetandet) [1]
Frälsare av Själen
Lev i mig idag
Var mitt Dagliga Bröd
Så som jag ger bröd åt andra
Hjälp mig växa i kunskap
Om Hela Skapelsen
Rensa mina ögon
Så att jag må Se
Rensa mina öron
Så att jag må höra
Rena mitt hjärta
Så att jag må känna och älska
Heligheten av det Sanna Livet [2]
Gudomliga Kosmiska Sinne

(Sann Existens Helighet
Gudomliga Kosmiska Medvetande)

1) 'Kosmiska Sinnet' seems to be more commonly used as a translation of 'Cosmic Mind', see: _http://paranormal.se/topic/svenska.html

2) It is my understanding, that the third last and second last phrase are connected together, 'know and love' points to 'Holiness of True Existence'
I've updated it - was due for some time, but pending changes were small (replacing "Så att" with "Att", contrary to my old reasoning - this is the way it flows when I actually use it, and while it felt a little bit archaic at first, it became natural by itself and feels cleaner) - also making your first suggested change (thanks!). The prayer is now simply the way it is sounded out in my mind when so is done in Swedish. Using Sinne, now that I'm getting used to it, gives it a closer feel to the English version, so a clear improvement if the same goes for others.

As for your second suggested change, it does work that way (connecting it) the way I wrote it as well - though it's perhaps a bit more ambiguous (easier to think the prayer either way if you aren't used to it rather than seeing the connection). I also don't like replacing "Sann Existens" ("True Existence") with "det Sanna Livet" ("the True Life"), as it is less close (it looks better in itself, but I don't think it works better) and feels more limited (where "true existence" makes me think of Being and STO and everything connected to it without connection to time or specific events). The alternative used in the Norwegian and Danish translations (in Swedish, Heligheten av Sann Existens, which doesn't look/flow the best to the eye but works as well in practice when you feel it, and less ambiguous with the connection) seems a good compromise, and I've changed it accordingly for now - thoughts welcome.
Then final version is:

"Själens bön

Å Gudomliga Kosmiska Sinne
Heliga Medvetenhet i All Skapelse
Buren i hjärtat
Härskare av sinnet
Frälsare av Själen
Lev i mig idag
Var mitt Dagliga Bröd
Så som jag ger bröd åt andra
Hjälp mig växa i kunskap
Om Hela Skapelsen
Rensa mina ögon
Att jag må Se
Rensa mina öron
Att jag må höra
Rena mitt hjärta
Att jag må känna och älska
Heligheten av Sann Existens
Gudomliga Kosmiska Sinne"

?
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Swedish version sounds good to me!

Here's the final (for now) Finnish version with some small changes from the previous one:


"Oi Jumalainen Kosminen Mieli
Koko Luomakunnan Pyhä Tietoisuus
Sydämessä kannettu
Mielen valtias
Sielun vapahtaja
Asu minussa tänään
Ole jokapäiväinen leipäni
Niin kuin minä annan leipää muille
Auta kasvattamaan tietämystäni
Koko Luomakunnasta
Selvennä silmäni
Voidakseni Nähdä
Selvennä korvani
Voidakseni kuulla
Puhdista sydämeni
Tunteakseni Oikean Olemassaolon Pyhyyden
ja rakastaa Sitä
Jumalainen Kosminen Mieli"
 

Jefferson

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Aragorn said:
Swedish version sounds good to me!

Here's the final (for now) Finnish version with some small changes from the previous one:


"Oi Jumalainen Kosminen Mieli
Koko Luomakunnan Pyhä Tietoisuus
Sydämessä kannettu
Mielen valtias
Sielun vapahtaja
Asu minussa tänään
Ole jokapäiväinen leipäni
Niin kuin minä annan leipää muille
Auta kasvattamaan tietämystäni
Koko Luomakunnasta
Selvennä silmäni
Voidakseni Nähdä
Selvennä korvani
Voidakseni kuulla
Puhdista sydämeni
Tunteakseni Oikean Olemassaolon Pyhyyden
ja rakastaa Sitä
Jumalainen Kosminen Mieli"

This 'for now' :) final version looks, feels, and sounds fine. I will try and switch to Finnish and do POTS in Finnish time-to-time to experience how it feels. It must, however, have a different ring with a native, and I will not be able to really evaluate how it touches a native Finnish speaker. I wonder if you or someone could put out an audio version of it? If doing breathing with audio, it would be good to have. What is happening with the other translations - are audio files being made?

Jefferson
 
I know the Lord's Prayer has been translated into many languages, and that "bread" has become synonymous with "nourishment" as a result of this, but I also know that Laura put a lot of thought into the first prototype so I say this with the utmost respect intended; is continuing to use the word for "bread" simply out of tradition perhaps a little bit perpetuating the consumption of gluten? (if it wasn't gluten-free bread, of course) :huh: Just something that occurred to me.
 

Blacki

Dagobah Resident
endescent said:
I know the Lord's Prayer has been translated into many languages, and that "bread" has become synonymous with "nourishment" as a result of this, but I also know that Laura put a lot of thought into the first prototype so I say this with the utmost respect intended; is continuing to use the word for "bread" simply out of tradition perhaps a little bit perpetuating the consumption of gluten? (if it wasn't gluten-free bread, of course) :huh: Just something that occurred to me.
yup I was wondering this same "bread" in pray ?
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Legolas said:
hithere said:
Just wondering: The phrasing "Be My Daily Bread" refers to a form of sustenance associated with inflammation and diverse health issues. It destroys the rythm of the prayer to insert "buckwheat bread". Any thoughts on this?
Lol. :)

I thought about something similar a longer time ago, but imo it is really meant symbolically.
I agree. I think that even the original meaning was intended to convey the idea of "basic sustenance". :)
 
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