The Vegetarian Myth

[SeekinTruth]

Hi, I can't really say I agree with the vegetarian myth. To say All vegetarians are traumatized beings trying to make up for their guilt... that seems liek the myth itself.

Some do it for health reasons, some actually think there is karma involved. Some just dont like the idea and will not stand for the idea of having to murder/sacrifice animals as it just doesn't fit their paradigm. Granted, it's hard for most to do the vegan diet right, that still doesn't mean that it's 'wrong'.

Who said ALL vegetarians are traumatized/wounded/hurt? Here's the opening post of this thread.

This subject came up off forum and I was asked to post it here for discussion:

I think I understand more fully what's going on with some vegetarians. I think the ones doing it for moral reasons have no real concern for health. That's probably obvious but I just realized this. I suppose I confused the lack of animal protein with health due to my own programming. I wonder if some people have had some deep wounding and attempt to fix the past because they were hurt so badly - they don't want to be responsible for hurting anyone the way they've been hurt?

So their vegetarian stance is a projection of their own wounded self upon animals. The meat eating population a projection of the wounding parent and therefore seen as the enemy. Being vegetarian allows them to uphold the image of the good child who can do no wrong.

The vegetarian/vegan diet (or dairy or whatever) further cements this inability to think (or having thought loops) properly by not supplying proper nutrients that would enable them to think outside the box. The box in this case being their own narcissistic wounding via their inability/unwillingness to accept responsibility.

ADMIN NOTE: Changed subject title to better reflect content of thread.

Also, have you read the book by the same title by Lierre Kieth (a vegan for 20 years)?

 

[thest0rm]

Hi, I can't really say I agree with the vegetarian myth. To say All vegetarians are traumatized beings trying to make up for their guilt... that seems liek the myth itself.

Some do it for health reasons, some actually think there is karma involved. Some just dont like the idea and will not stand for the idea of having to murder/sacrifice animals as it just doesn't fit their paradigm. Granted, it's hard for most to do the vegan diet right, that still doesn't mean that it's 'wrong'.

Who said ALL vegetarians are traumatized/wounded/hurt? Here's the opening post of this thread.

This subject came up off forum and I was asked to post it here for discussion:

I think I understand more fully what's going on with some vegetarians. I think the ones doing it for moral reasons have no real concern for health. That's probably obvious but I just realized this. I suppose I confused the lack of animal protein with health due to my own programming. I wonder if some people have had some deep wounding and attempt to fix the past because they were hurt so badly - they don't want to be responsible for hurting anyone the way they've been hurt?

So their vegetarian stance is a projection of their own wounded self upon animals. The meat eating population a projection of the wounding parent and therefore seen as the enemy. Being vegetarian allows them to uphold the image of the good child who can do no wrong.

The vegetarian/vegan diet (or dairy or whatever) further cements this inability to think (or having thought loops) properly by not supplying proper nutrients that would enable them to think outside the box. The box in this case being their own narcissistic wounding via their inability/unwillingness to accept responsibility.

ADMIN NOTE: Changed subject title to better reflect content of thread.

Also, have you read the book by the same title by Lierre Kieth (a vegan for 20 years)?

LOL ok, why even try then see? Of course, anyone reading that stuff is going to be scared as heck of vegan diets.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Well, whose cup is full? And if you read the research on vegan diets the way you read the opening post, seeing only what you want to see, then what else is left to say?

 

[thest0rm]

As I said, it seems you all have already your cup full, and are set against veganism without having any open mind, not saying your experiences aren't valid but you'll only most likely look for the bad in vegan diets. Also being influenced by popular media such as "The Vegetarian Myth", so of course there's just no way you could see how a vegan diet could work.

Oh well... but if you do want to look into it... I just left a website, again: thesproutarian.com if you want to open your minds to another perspective. Its just that one doesn't arrive to this sort of thing unless you're 'ready' for it I guess.

 

[thest0rm]

Well, whose cup is full? And if you read the research on vegan diets the way you read the opening post, seeing only what you want to see, then what else is left to say?

TBH I think I know the majority of it really. I've spent soooo much time, researching the diet myself. You wouldn't believe really. I scrutinize every single thing about it yet here I am. I've researched it all pretty much.

 

[thest0rm]

I gtg. Im not sure I'll return though.

 

[Gaby]

Yes, the fruitarian diet may have been what is best for us but the fact is humans have fallen from grace a long time ago. Most can no longer do it and by far, we aren't adapted to it.

A fruit diet is the one thing that may devolve us into monkeys:

Possible Fruit Protein Effects on Primate Communities in Madagascar and the Neotropics

The ecological factors contributing to the evolution of tropical vertebrate communities are still poorly understood. Primate communities of the tropical Americas have fewer folivorous but more frugivorous genera than tropical regions of the Old World and especially many more frugivorous genera than Madagascar. ...Neotropical fruits have higher protein concentrations than fruits from Madagascar and that the higher representation of frugivorous genera in the Neotropics is linked to high protein concentrations in fruits. Low fruit protein concentrations in Madagascar would restrict the evolution of frugivores in Malagasy communities.

That is to say, the main element sought by the consumers, leading to their development as species, was protein. Fruit-eating creatures didn't evolve into human beings as primates exposed to harsh or unusual conditions did.

I find it amazing that you are not interested in discussing and finding out more about the research, but just giving your opinions as if they were facts. As a matter of fact, they are two different things. See this thread on opinions for more information: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,3925.msg25911.html#msg25911

 

[Gaby]

I came across this article today:

Delirium as a result of vitamin B12 deficiency in a vegetarian female patient

European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2013) 67, 996–997; doi:10.1038/ejcn.2013.128; published online 17 July 2013

Abstract

Vitamin B12 deficiency can manifest with haematological, gastrointestinal and neuropsychiatric signs. The neuropsychiatric symptoms may be concurrent or precede the other symptoms. The reported case is a clinical case of delirium due to vitamin B12 deficiency in a female vegetarian patient. The patient was treated with vitamin B12 supplementation. Initially, it was difficult to diagnose this patient, who presented with delirium that could have been due to multiple causes. The finding underlines the importance of conducting a complete laboratory test panel for delirium, including the blood levels of vitamin B12.

Keywords:

delirium; vitamin B12 deficiency; vegetarian

Introduction

Vitamin B12 deficiency is a public health problem that affects ~20% of elderly people.1 It can manifest as haematological, gastrointestinal or neuropsychiatric signs and symptoms with depression, dementia, catatonia and delirium, which are considered as precursors.2, 3, 4 Studies have shown a high risk of depression in elderly women with vitamin B12 deficiency compared with healthy female individuals.5, 6

The lack of cobalamin is caused by food cobalamin malabsorption and pernicious anaemia. Dietary causes of vitamin B12 deficiency are rare and typically concern elderly people. Strict vegetarianism can lead to a lack of vitamin B12 ingestion and, hence, its deficiency in the body.5

Neuropsychiatric signs and symptoms secondary to vitamin B12 deficiency can be explained by the involvement of vitamin B12, as well as folate and homocysteine, which are involved in the carbon transfer metabolism (methylation) required for serotonin production, a crucial step in monoamine synthesis.2[...]

Case presentation

Mrs G was a 62-year-old widow of Argentinean origin. She was a storekeeper and mother of four children and worked at her own kiosk. She was vegetarian, with a history of a major depressive episode 5 years ago with complete remission of the episode under venlafaxine treatment.

She was admitted to the emergency department accompanied by the police, as she was found wandering lost and confused. She complained of suffering from insomnia, fatigability and poor concentration. Following some standard physical and blood tests, no physical explanation was found to explain her symptoms, and the patient was taken to our outpatient psychiatric crisis centre. She presented moderate psychomotor retardation, confusion and partial disorientation. She had depressed mood and anxiety, poor concentration and difficulty in speech. She also complained of sleep disturbances for the last few days and fatigue. The memory deficits and insomnia had a rather acute onset over the past days and presented a fluctuation of symptom severity over hours.[...]

Upon physical examination, the patient did not present any pathologic signs or symptoms apart from hypertension (up to 190/110 mm Hg) that required antihypertensive treatment with ramipril 5 mg. The investigations revealed normal haematological and ionogram levels. Her serum vitamin B12 level was low at 91 pmol/l (135–700 pmol/l), and folic acid was normal at 22.2 μg/l (4.1–24 μg/l). Mrs G had a history of vitamin B12 deficiency without presenting neuropsychiatric symptoms at the given time. The cause of the vitamin B12 deficiency was attributed to the patient’s strict vegetarianism. We conducted viral and bacterial screening to exclude an infectious cause of the patient’s current status. The serologic results for Lyme were fairly positive for immunoglobulin M but not immunoglobulin G. The infectious disease specialist proposed a retest on the subsequent month, and the results were negative. Other investigations, including brain magnetic resonance imaging, showed diffused cortical and subcortical atrophy and some nonspecific abnormalities of the white matter concordant to the age of the patient. Neuropsychiatric tests, which were conducted 2 weeks after the beginning of the treatment in our clinic, revealed multiple cognitive deficits that could be explained by either deterioration due to the patient’s age or a depressive episode.[...]

Discussion

We report the case of a patient with delirium for whom an aetiological investigation indicated a probable vitamin B12 deficiency. We emphasise the importance of conducting a wide range of laboratory tests, including an evaluation of vitamin blood levels.

The laboratory and clinical examinations we conducted excluded infectious, vascular, neoplastic, metabolic and endocrine causes. Our patient had a previous major depressive episode in addition to high blood pressure, leading to the hypertension diagnosis, which was considered a predisposing factor of the delirium.7

The significant improvement in cognitive function, the return to a normal level of consciousness and the remission of her depressive and anxiety symptoms could be explained by the introduction of the vitamin B12 treatment, rather than escitalopram at 10 mg/day for only 8 days.8[...]

The positive clinical response to the substitution treatment and the lack of other possible causes confirmed our diagnosis of delirium due to vitamin B12 deficiency.10

In conclusion, with this case report, we would like to draw clinicians’ attention to vitamin B12 deficiency as a reversible cause of delirium and to the importance of conducting a complete laboratory work-up for delirium, including the blood levels of vitamin B12.

More information at European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2013) 67, 996–997.

 

[Vic]

Well, whose cup is full? And if you read the research on vegan diets the way you read the opening post, seeing only what you want to see, then what else is left to say?

TBH I think I know the majority of it really. I've spent soooo much time, researching the diet myself. You wouldn't believe really. I scrutinize every single thing about it yet here I am. I've researched it all pretty much.

As a vegetarian for twelve years, and a vegan for 6 years, I thought I knew it all, just like you. How wrong I was. May I suggest that you actually read The Vegetarian Myth,and read it with an open mind. If you are secure in your beliefs about vegetarianism/veganism what harm can it do?

Best wishes.

Vic

 

[Psalehesost]

Well, whose cup is full? And if you read the research on vegan diets the way you read the opening post, seeing only what you want to see, then what else is left to say?

TBH I think I know the majority of it really. I've spent soooo much time, researching the diet myself. You wouldn't believe really. I scrutinize every single thing about it yet here I am. I've researched it all pretty much.

As a vegetarian for twelve years, and a vegan for 6 years, I thought I knew it all, just like you. How wrong I was. May I suggest that you actually read The Vegetarian Myth,and read it with an open mind. If you are secure in your beliefs about vegetarianism/veganism what harm can it do?

Best wishes.

Vic

Maybe that's just the thing; that thest0rm fears being convinced if he or she reads it. At some level, not being wholly convinced, yet being attached to the idea of vegetarianism and believing in it - and so, defending it by avoiding certain information. No way to know for sure if this is the case, but I was thinking of this:

Of course, anyone reading that stuff is going to be scared as heck of vegan diets.

 

[thest0rm]

As it is written here in a review of "The Vegetarian Myth":

"It’s next to impossible to review this book; it is so packed with misinformation and confusion that refuting the claims could be another book itself. This is a long post, and it doesn't begin to address all of the problems in The Vegetarian Myth."
- See more at: http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/09/review-of-the-vegetarian-myth.html#sthash.nLMht1E0.dpuf

This is how I feel about coming on here and trying to refute some of the points made on here by forum members. Plus I dont have much research articles to give anyways. But along the way in my journey of being vegan I have of course read many articles, I just can't source them all and again I just dont have time for it all. I can say many various things, the fact is though I think no one will ever listen. If that's the case then so be it. I thought some would be open minded as to veganism here. I guess I was wrong.

Ok, but I'll have a go at some of the points bought up by a members here after I got here.

Psyche:

You say that it's protein that made us "evolve" correct? If so then why aren't other animals that do eat meat, or are omnivore and have ample supplies of protein not as much evolved? I've asked the question myself to even explain how we became so evolved, frankly I dont think commercial science that has invested interests in bringing veganism down can thoroughly explain. They also can't explain why monkeys, if they've been eating vegan for so long have no become "evolved" like we have either. SO which leads me to believe that Earth is either not our home and we were genetically hybridized by some ET race or something else that I know nothing of so far. Still, Tony Wrights idea of "left in the dark" seems a bit feasible ... even as humans.... but i think would make more sense if we were hominoids like sasquatch, bigfoot, yeti etc. Which we are not. And hominoids are not even recognized by commercial science simply because it would be too "scary", and would raise questions about the Darwinistic evolutionary model.

So neither meat eating animals , nor plant eating fruigivores, herbivores, omnivores even have "discovered fire". So what explains that? The video by LLoyd Pye called "Everything You know is Wrong" (or smtg like that) comes to mind.

The second point you made is about b12. Sure, but again as I've read before... b12 problems are not exclusive to vegans, and it can be solved by simply taking a pill. But here's a missing thing: it comes from fermentation. It seems like we may have lost our abilities to convert/manufacture b12 in our bodies like the rest of the animal kingdom can, including frugivorous species. In fact the sproutarians over at thesproutarian.com have even checked their b12 levels After doing enemas, implants of wheatgrass, drinking lots of rejuvelac and consuming ferments on a daily basis and what do you know, without supplementation they are not showing b12 deficiency. Plus there can be something said about b12 being in the soil, and being able to be absorbed by the skin, or food we eat that is not extremely cleaned from soil particulates, etc. Or even as some vegans suggested... in the air we breathe? Of course carried from the soil. I dont know about that, I doubt it's even that much if anything. The main point though being is that 1. our bodies aren't clean enough from all the junk of unclean diets, 2. our gut flora aren't sufficiently populated. The third could also be that our appendix which has found to have had a purpose recently by science research... it could have served as a storehouse for beneficial bacterias and yeast but we have developed to not make use of that anymore.. so scientists generally think it has no purpose. But it may have had at one point in the evolution of our species, and they are finding out as a storehouse of bacteria and yeasts/probiotics.

So yes, it's not that Im just scared of being open minded, its just that Im not very well versed in scientific research... plus my writing style may be a bit weak. Whatever. I can't convince anyone. But I do encourage people to look at theSproutarian.com sometime in the future if they're interested. There are a couple there that are working on bringing all the science research to this diet (the sproutarian diet) that may help one to understand that maybe it's not so necessary to have to eat meat. Even if there are no specific diets we are adapted to as the humans we are now. Either we are genetically modified hybrid beings or whatever, I cannot find the answer to why we are the only species on Earth that has no specific diet that we are adapted to on Earth and that Earth doesn't provide for. Something is missing in the current explanations coming from commercialized science.

 

[thest0rm]

Another thing is that most fruits and veggies are hybrids, or genetically altered creations from a distant past. So again here, it's easy to see that humans are not really fruitarians. Heck even monkeys have issues with the foods they eat due to antinutrients, unpalatability or impracticalness of fruits and veggies. But they still manage because they're adapted to that. It doesn't mean it doesn't cause problems for them, I often see monkeys with huge bellies and they can be messy and clunky in handling their food.

So again here, modern/commercial/popular "science" cannot explain many of the things I've brought up.

And with all this in mind it's easy to think that humans can't be vegan. Whether or not we were meant to be still doesn't say whether we can be vegan or not. There are so many different variables and scientific research often is not doing correctly, or even interpreted correctly by those who already have interests in proven veganism wrong without being open minded. Not everything can be seen on the surface of things.

The sproutarian diet can have ample amounts of protein also... plus raw and uncooked, fermented then protein is made very digestible. Again its just so many variables that most people don't take into account, and most people don't address them all to even be able to consider any other possibility.

 

[Laura]

As it is written here in a review of "The Vegetarian Myth":

"It’s next to impossible to review this book; it is so packed with misinformation and confusion that refuting the claims could be another book itself. This is a long post, and it doesn't begin to address all of the problems in The Vegetarian Myth."
- See more at: http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/09/review-of-the-vegetarian-myth.html#sthash.nLMht1E0.dpuf

Written by someone who can't refute it.

This is how I feel about coming on here and trying to refute some of the points made on here by forum members. Plus I dont have much research articles to give anyways. But along the way in my journey of being vegan I have of course read many articles, I just can't source them all and again I just dont have time for it all. I can say many various things, the fact is though I think no one will ever listen. If that's the case then so be it. I thought some would be open minded as to veganism here. I guess I was wrong.

Yes, you were wrong. This is a research forum. You have to be able to back up what you say with research and source citations. The forum diet and health section is loaded with them, often excerpted and condensed. Please avail yourself of the facts supported by EVIDENCE.

 

[shijing]

Hi thest0rm,

This is how I feel about coming on here and trying to refute some of the points made on here by forum members. Plus I dont have much research articles to give anyways. But along the way in my journey of being vegan I have of course read many articles, I just can't source them all and again I just dont have time for it all. I can say many various things, the fact is though I think no one will ever listen. If that's the case then so be it. I thought some would be open minded as to veganism here. I guess I was wrong.

The thing is, we have members who've come from a variety of backgrounds, many of whom have suffered several kinds of severe health problems. We've not only invested time doing the actual research, we've experimented and actively applied the concepts we've learned about, and discovered that -- in practical terms -- the most optimal diet seems to be the ketogenic diet (which we learned about as a result of first having learned about and tested the paleo diet). People have resolved health issues, had more energy, and basically function better eating this way -- and that's putting aside the other environmental and philosophical issues that we've also struggled through as we try to learn more about this topic.

Maybe the problem here is that you're seeing this as a kind of debate -- you feel like there's a "right" side and a "wrong" side, and either you're going to convince us or vice versa. Well, we're not interested in convincing you -- we know what we've discovered practically through reading a broad range of material and then trying it out and observing what the effects were, but you have every right to your own beliefs (and the right to change them, which is true for anyone here). But maybe it would be better to not worry so much about arguing your point of view, and to take some time to just keep reading and process it for awhile. If you take the attitude that this is an experiment and we're here to help each other learn, then we can make progress. If your attitude is one of defending your own beliefs at any cost, on the other hand, then we won't try to force your beliefs into alignment with ours -- it may just mean that this isn't the right place for you at this time. And that's OK too.

 

[thest0rm]

it's possible to be a vegan ketonic. As for me it's basically sprout greens/grass and algaes, sprouted and fermented seeds. Weeds are also pretty good but I haven't gotten into foraging yet. Is it practical? Maybe not by most standards but it does come closest to the optimal diet for me.