The Vegetarian Myth

[Deleted member 8431]

Maybe veganism is like the false alternative to the mainstream American diet, like new age is the false alternative to the 3 monotheistic religions. All methods to keep people trapped in the control system.

Yup, that's pretty much my take on it, as well.

You could indeed see this as a form of religion. As far as I can see, most people who get into vegetarianism/veganism usually do it for ethic and moral reasons which leads them to adopt strong beliefs in which they are very emotionally involved.

A powerful control system indeed. Moreover, such a diet is damaging and makes them weaker, more vulnerable, emotionally unbalanced and perhaps more ''edible'' who knows.

I have a vegetarian friend and one time as she was saying how she at least has some convictions which people lack (as if not eating animals was the only conviction a person can have), I tried to bring some objectivity in the discussion by mentioning the environmental impacts of modern agriculture which failed miserably as her cup is full and overflowing. So I could only say in the end that I respect her opinion but that I will not discuss in that way.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Maybe veganism is like the false alternative to the mainstream American diet, like new age is the false alternative to the 3 monotheistic religions. All methods to keep people trapped in the control system.

Yup, that's pretty much my take on it, as well.

You could indeed see this as a form of religion. As far as I can see, most people who get into vegetarianism/veganism usually do it for ethic and moral reasons which leads them to adopt strong beliefs in which they are very emotionally involved.

A powerful control system indeed. Moreover, such a diet is damaging and makes them weaker, more vulnerable, emotionally unbalanced and perhaps more ''edible'' who knows.

I have a vegetarian friend and one time as she was saying how she at least has some convictions which people lack (as if not eating animals was the only conviction a person can have), I tried to bring some objectivity in the discussion by mentioning the environmental impacts of modern agriculture which failed miserably as her cup is full and overflowing. So I could only say in the end that I respect her opinion but that I will not discuss in that way.

Yes, I just posted the following in the SOTT Talk Radio Show - Show #36 - Lierre Keith Interview: The Vegetarian Myth (which is very relevant to have linked to this current thread) thread:

Great show! Thanks for having Lierre on the show, she really is so knowledgeable and engaging to listen to.

Two books that she mentioned was the Mood Cure by Julia Ross to help with depression, anxiety and fatigue, which is something she suffered from and Lost Language of Plants by Stephen Harrod, which came up when Lierre was discussing how plants form communities by feeding and helping one another as well as take measures to protect their young. So the whole thing about how it's okay to eat plants because they don't have nervous systems but it's wrong to eat animals is pretty much BS. Looking forward to adding those two books to the stacks of other books I need to read. :P

Thanks for an excellent interview with Lierre Keith. I've ordered her book thru the public library, but this is definitely one to own.
Ditto for The Language of Plants. I had no idea that plants, bacteria, and other so-called primitive life forms had such incredible powers of communication and sentience, and it's mind-blowing that indigenous peoples could actually converse with plants.

Yeah, the whole not eating animals reminds me of the whole anti-abortion debate, i.e. people arguing heatedly about things they can't conclusively know about and insisting on it - lots of wiseacring. It's like those who will eat eggs but not chickens, those that will compromise and eat fish, but no other animals, etc. It's all just arbitrary, subjective stuff. There's no way of definitely knowing "when a soul actually becomes connected to a body" in the case of the pro and ant-abortion arguments, and there's plenty of good reasons to keep abortions legal.

Much lifelong suffering and even perpetuation throughout generations can be avoided by conscientious decisions for abortion. Of course, the best would be to avoid the unwanted pregnancy in the first place. And I think the trauma of a woman having an abortion should be considered very carefully as well. Finally, and very importantly, even when abortion is made illegal, women continue to have them in much more dangerous and inappropriate places and circumstances (just like everything else that's made illegal, it certainly doesn't stop the practice).

Then there's the REALLY fanatical anti-abortion people who want to stop abortions from even rape / incest. BUT, many of them are pro capital punishment (really bad idea in the current "justice system"), support all the war mongering, and the most extreme of them end up blowing up abortion clinics killing the doctors/staff, pregnant women and the unborn children. I mean, how twisted is THAT?! And they call themselves "pro life?"

It really strikes me as having many similarities to the militant vegans/vegetarians that don't seem to give a damn (and would NOT even consider the issues and dismiss them out of hand claiming them to be nonsense spread by ignorant people - talk about projection) that large scale agriculture kills MANY more animals, plants, and even microbes in the soil and actually destroys the topsoil which is the foundation for all life on the planet: in short, ecocide.


Haven't listened to the show yet. I'll be listening to it tomorrow and am really looking forward to it.

I think you could say that religions that vehemently promote "being fruitful and multiplying" and especially being fanatically antiabortion are very similar to the vegan/vegetarian movements in that they both serve to provide and increase "food for the 'Matrix'" or as Gurdjieff put it, "Food for the Moon." Or so I think.

 

[Muxel]

I think you could say that religions that vehemently promote "being fruitful and multiplying" and especially being fanatically antiabortion are very similar to the vegan/vegetarian movements in that they both serve to provide and increase "food for the 'Matrix'" or as Gurdjieff put it, "Food for the Moon." Or so I think.

I think it ties into to how agriculture encouraged being fruitful and multiplying both because human sexual cycles got accelerated by it and because it was in the interest of families to have more hands to work the fields. And agriculture, for me at least, brings up mental associations of religion and perhaps the odd blood sacrifice when the ground provideth not and people are getting hysterical. Not to mention that agriculture is basically humans exploiting one facet of nature and deliberately abrading the earth to simulate an environment in which annuals can take hold. And we know from Ernest Gellner that agriculture is followed by war and domination, and all the trappings of "civilization" as we know it. A society on opioids, botched activation of genetics that present as schizophrenia, the imbalance that we create by interfering with the "intelligence" of an ecosystem (not sentient in the way that we are sentient, but certainly sentient in a combined, concerted way; we are talking about second density after all)...There is so much more but it all seems to be part of the same elephant. And what is the elephant - is it just hyperdimensional vectoring of all energy? In any case, agriculture is going to be a short ride for us humans as we will soon find ourselves pitted against cycles far more ancient than we can fathom: the end of this interglacial, and the terrible visitation of electrified space rocks from the Oort cloud.

The vegans, well, they're hurting themselves more than they're hurting the planet. Give them a break. Modern agriculture doesn't depend on them as much as it does the SAD'ers: the people of corn, living in a world of things derived from corn.

 

[Old McDonald]

I have only read the last few pages of this thread because I lack the time to read it all. As a farmer in several countries over about 60 years, there is one thing I have come to know, and that is that continual cropping of land has never, in the time since farming began, been a sustainable system. Grass (the term used by farmers around the world to describe sown pastures of grasses, legumes, herbs, etc) grazed by livestock to give the land a break from cropping and to restore fertility, has always been a necessary part of systems where the land has been been successfully farmed for more than just a few decades. Obviously these grazing livestock are consumed by humans.

Veganism, and even vegetarianism, cannot be a lifestyle to permit continuing food production for more than a very short period of time. Has anyone ever met a vegan farmer?

 

[sarahelizabeth]

I had a recent encounter with a Naturopath at my work who is a vegetarian. He made a comment on my diet. I was eating a handful of almonds and he proceeds with "you can't sit on your butt all day and eat those you'll get fat". I couldn't help but laugh.

It saddens me that even those in the complimentary health community don't seek knowledge beyond what they learnt when they studied (he would have studied at least 20 years ago). I am currently studying Naturopathy and I've learning very fast that a Ketogenic diet is the best possible diet for optimal health & a "food is medicine" approach.

I went on to e-mail him the sott link to the Keto diet overview and haven't heard a peep from him since ;D

I understand the motives behind vegetarianism/ veganism. I love animals too! I have tried both for ethical reasons and got very sick each time within only a few months - instant indicator that it simply wasn't sustainable for me.

 

[Nienna]

I had a recent encounter with a Naturopath at my work who is a vegetarian. He made a comment on my diet. I was eating a handful of almonds and he proceeds with "you can't sit on your butt all day and eat those you'll get fat". I couldn't help but laugh.

Just a note that many nuts, if not all, do damage to our bodies. Many here on the forum have eliminated various nuts from their diet for 2 -4 weeks and, when re-introducing them into their diet, had some bad reactions to them. You may want to give the elimination a try to make sure that you are not harming yourself.

 

[sarahelizabeth]

I had a recent encounter with a Naturopath at my work who is a vegetarian. He made a comment on my diet. I was eating a handful of almonds and he proceeds with "you can't sit on your butt all day and eat those you'll get fat". I couldn't help but laugh.

Just a note that many nuts, if not all, do damage to our bodies. Many here on the forum have eliminated various nuts from their diet for 2 -4 weeks and, when re-introducing them into their diet, had some bad reactions to them. You may want to give the elimination a try to make sure that you are not harming yourself.

Thanks Nienna, gosh there is so much to learn! I feel like I haven't even skimmed the top of the ice burg.

 

[PERLOU]

Je ne mange ni viande ni poissons depuis quelques années ne voulant pas me nourrir de souffrance animale comme le fond les lézards avec nous...
Je suis en bonne santé et en harmonie avec mes pensées, paroles et actions...
Cependant je sais cuisiner de la viande et des poissons pour ceux qui ne sont pas végétariens par respect de leur libre arbitre...

I do not eat meat or fish for some years not wanting to feed on animal suffering like the back lizards with us ...
I am healthy and in harmony with my thoughts, words and actions ...
But I know how to cook meat and fish for those who are not vegetarians by respecting their free will ...

 

[rrraven]

Je ne mange ni viande ni poissons depuis quelques années ne voulant pas me nourrir de souffrance animale comme le fond les lézards avec nous...
Je suis en bonne santé et en harmonie avec mes pensées, paroles et actions...
Cependant je sais cuisiner de la viande et des poissons pour ceux qui ne sont pas végétariens par respect de leur libre arbitre...

I do not eat meat or fish for some years not wanting to feed on animal suffering like the back lizards with us ...
I am healthy and in harmony with my thoughts, words and actions ...
But I know how to cook meat and fish for those who are not vegetarians by respecting their free will ...

have you read ''The Vegetarian Myth'' at all? or ever this whole thread? agriculture causes way more suffering
and needless death for animals (native fauna) than you may think

I won't eat animals or plants that have not been sustainable raised/fished and are local and in season is a better aim ,I think.

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Perlou, si tu souhaites le lire, Le Mythe Végétarien - livre discuté dans ce fil de discussion - est disponible en français.

Perlou, if you want to read it, The Vegetarian Myth - the book discussed in this thread - is available in French.

 

[PERLOU]

Merci pour vos messages Rrraven et Mrs. Tigersoap pour l'info sur ce livre que je viens d'aller voir sur Amazon...
Comme le dit Karma sur son post du 1er janvier 2014 : Il n'est nul besoin de manger de la viande, certains produits comme les oeufs sont des aliments complets et n'engendrent pas de souffrance, A LA CONDITION que les élevages soient faits dans le respect de l'animal, c'est bien là tout le fond du problème.

Je mange des oeufs "bio" que pondent des poules qui ont accès à l'extérieur et ne vivent pas dans des hangars concentrationnaires...
Si les animaux étaient tués proprement sans douleur et avec respect, je reverrais peut être mes idées mais en France,
c'est la mort hallal qui prédomine et cela m'est insupportable...
Je continuerai donc à ne pas manger de viande ni poisson car ceci me permet d'être alignée : pensées, paroles, actions...
Ce ci est mon choix ce qui ne m'empêche pas de respecter le vôtre...



Thank you for your messages and Mrs. Rrraven Tigersoap for the info on this book that I just go on Amazon ...
As Karma said on his post 1 January 2014: There is no need to eat meat, some products such as eggs are whole foods and do not cause suffering, PROVIDED that the farms are made in respect for the animal, this is where the entire bottom of the issue.

I eat eggs 'bio' laid by hens that have access to the outdoors and do not live in concentration camps sheds ...
If animals were killed painlessly and cleanly with respect, I would see my ideas can be but in France,
it is halal death prevails and this is unbearable ...
I will continue to not eat meat or fish as this allows me to be aligned: thoughts, words, actions ...
This is my choice which does not prevent me to respect yours ...

 

[Konstantin]

Parlou, i respect your choices. We here are doing the work. Our main goal is to understand the objective reality and to work on ourselves. Vegetarian diet is another myth. Another new age manifestation that claims that if you are vegetarian you will be better aligned with some gods, some vibrations some angels and i don't know what else.
Its nothing more then a program running inside you. And we are trying to identify and neutralize all those programs inside us because they are preventing us to see the objective reality.
Agriculture is causing more pain and more deaths to animals then anything else. We have some members on this forum that were in a situation similar to your , and they were or still are on a transition from vegetarian to a meet eater. Find that posts are read them. Maybe things will be more clear.
Take care.

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Merci pour vos messages Rrraven et Mrs. Tigersoap pour l'info sur ce livre que je viens d'aller voir sur Amazon...
Comme le dit Karma sur son post du 1er janvier 2014 : Il n'est nul besoin de manger de la viande, certains produits comme les oeufs sont des aliments complets et n'engendrent pas de souffrance, A LA CONDITION que les élevages soient faits dans le respect de l'animal, c'est bien là tout le fond du problème.Je mange des oeufs "bio" que pondent des poules qui ont accès à l'extérieur et ne vivent pas dans des hangars concentrationnaires...

Thank you for your messages and Mrs. Rrraven Tigersoap for the info on this book that I just go on Amazon ...
As Karma said on his post 1 January 2014: There is no need to eat meat, some products such as eggs are whole foods and do not cause suffering, PROVIDED that the farms are made in respect for the animal, this is where the entire bottom of the issue.
I eat eggs 'bio' laid by hens that have access to the outdoors and do not live in concentration camps sheds ...

Le respect de l'animal, de la nature ET le respect des besoins nutritionnels de l'homme, c'est exactement ce qui est discuté dans le livre.

Respect for animals, for nature AND respect for man's nutrition needs, this is exactly what is discussed in the book.

Si les animaux étaient tués proprement sans douleur et avec respect, je reverrais peut être mes idées mais en France,
c'est la mort hallal qui prédomine et cela m'est insupportable...
If animals were killed painlessly and cleanly with respect, I would see my ideas can be but in France,
it is halal death prevails and this is unbearable ...

Je ne suis pas sûre de bien comprendre ce que vous voulez dire par "en France, c'est la mort halal qui prédomine".

I'm not really sure I understand what you mean by "in France, it is halal death which prevails'.

 

[SeekinTruth]

The halal (Muslim, as also Kosher for Jews) practice of killing the animal having to drain the blood is probably what's being referred to. But I'm not sure why one couldn't buy meat that wasn't halal or kosher in France.

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

The halal (Muslim, as also Kosher for Jews) practice of killing the animal having to drain the blood is probably what's being referred to.

I know what halal is of course, I just don't understand how/why it 'prevails in France'.

But I'm not sure why one couldn't buy meat that wasn't halal or kosher in France.

My thoughts exactly. ;)