Trump era: Fascist dawn, or road to liberation?

Hello H2O said:
My God, even meltdowns from the Super Bowl. Things sure are polarizing alright.


A Legion of Liberals in Despair Over Patriots Win

_http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/02/06/legion-liberals-despair-patriots-win/
I am not sure how much of that is due to Breitbart stoking the fire, but I suspect that it is just a Breitbart story with little value. I somehow doubt that there is a genuine despair. If that was the case, Russia would have gotten the blame and I didn't see even one comment on the twitter link going there :lol:
 
Aeneas said:
Hello H2O said:
My God, even meltdowns from the Super Bowl. Things sure are polarizing alright.


A Legion of Liberals in Despair Over Patriots Win

_http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/02/06/legion-liberals-despair-patriots-win/
I am not sure how much of that is due to Breitbart stoking the fire, but I suspect that it is just a Breitbart story with little value. I somehow doubt that there is a genuine despair. If that was the case, Russia would have gotten the blame and I didn't see even one comment on the twitter link going there :lol:

You know in light of Scottie's post, I was thinking the same thing when I was reading it. It takes two to tango they say, and the right side of the media seems to be dancing to the tune as well. I suppose it is from a basic human response, when you are ridiculed, you want to ridicule back. But in the end you are just stoking the fires. Thank you Scottie for pointing it out. I am learning many things here... :)
 
Thanks for your thoughts Scottie and others. With things seeming to increase in chaos in many different ways and so much information flowing from this with no real break in sight, I was thinking after getting caught up on this thread today that the forum and threads like this are like a virtual Noah’s Ark to help keep individuals here connected to reality, the Work, trying to see things objectively and keep from getting caught up in and going under with the chaos. A lot of the time I’m a little blown away with the perspectives of many different members provided via this network to try to see the unseen.

It seems to be a rare thing for people I know in real life or witness on facebook from the US, outside of the scope of those associated with the forum, to question themselves. It is almost like the election has pushed a majority and masses of people to have the bias of illusory superiority and/or Dunning–Kruger effect (https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=34946.0). It seems to be happening to all those who are choosing a side be it the left or the right and not seeking to critically examine what is going on. The election seems to have pushed the emotional buttons to the point where the emotional reactions are totally overwhelming many people’s ability to think and is amplifying perspectives they have and what they think they know. They just know they are right (and thus superior) and some it seems are willing to start taking action based on this set of perspectives without having a clue of the level of their ignorance in so many fields of knowledge or what agendas might be at play.

Often times, especially since the inauguration, I’ve been having thoughts about just how much I don’t know and try to keep this in mind moving forward as a means to keep me humble and from getting caught up in the chaos.
 
Neil said:
Lada is supposed to release a follow-up webinar Friday where she is supposed to address unanswered questions and she has allowed us to ask additional questions. I threw in a question about her opinion of Steve Bannon since there has been quite a bit of buzz about him here in recent posts, so we'll see if she gets to it. Maybe herondancer and bear could submit a question if you all have a consensus on something you really want to ask her.

@Bear, no need to worry about the question I wanted you to ask, because it was kind of addressed in an amalgamation of different questions. The answer was that Trump could be considered karma in a way, the overarching theme is that the planet's Yin and Yang forces must be balanced in order for the Earth Shift to proceed. The US is aberrantly powerful and the universe needs it to weaken so that it is on more or less equal footing with Russia and China. This is a requirement so that the incarnate environment of Earth can support 5D consciousness (her definition) with balanced higher dimensional energies infusing and driving the different cultures. Trump and Tillerson are tools for this to manifest in a less disruptive and more constructive way. She didn't say it all in one place, it was kind of touched in 2 or 3 different places in the video, so I am kind of summarizing.

Thanks Neil for making notes on Lada's webinar. Very informative. In her references to Trump, like in the quote below, does Lada give any indication that Soro's will succeed in his "Color Revolution" against Trump? There does seem to be a balancing act going on, first Hillary and her Clinton Foundation have taken a direct hit, by her losing the election. In the same vain, Soro's who was heavily backing her, is now finding the tables reversing on him, due to his Color Revolutions in other Countries. People are waking up to the heavy manipulation. At the moment, a recent financial data breech has the Dutch and the Netherland's openly against Soro's and his financial manipulation and destabilization operations. Along with the Dutch, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban now leads the anti-Soros groundswell in Europe. Macedonia, Poland, the Czech Republic, Latvia and Lithuania - all want Soros's and his NGO's - OUT! Maybe, the destabilization will prevent Soro's from accomplishing his Color Revolution in the US?

1:30:00-According to Lada's multidimensional analysis, the probability favors Trump only lasting in office 2-3 years. There are apparently fluctuations in the timelines which are making this difficult to see. He may last 5 years or so, but she doesn't see him lasting two full terms in any event. She thinks he will avoid assassination, he may be impeached, but it is all very clouded and unpredictable.

Soros on the Ropes
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/01/29/soros-on-ropes.html

Although multi-billionaire hedge fund tycoon and international political pot-stirrer George Soros lost big with the election of Donald Trump as president of the United States and the victory of the Brexit referendum in the United Kingdom, he stands to lose further ground, politically and financially, as the winds of political change sweep across the globe.

Soros, who fancies himself as the master of placing short put options on stocks, often cleaning up to the tune of billions of dollars in the process when the stock values collapse, has been dealt a few financial body blows. Recently, the Dutch securities market regulator AFM «accidentally» revealed on line all of Soros's short trades since 2012. Soros's trades were revealed on AFM's website and were removed after the regulator realized the «error». However, the Soros data had already been captured by automatic data capturing software programs operated by intelligence agencies and brokerage firms that routinely scour the Internet looking for such «mistakes».

Among the bank shares targeted by Soros was the Ing Groep NV, a major institution and important element of the Dutch economy. After campaigning against Brexit, Soros bet against the stock of Deutsche Bank AG, which he believed would fall in value after Britain voted to leave the EU. Deutsche Bank stock fell 14 percent and Soros cleaned up. But Soros’s celebration was temporary. With Trump's election, Soros lost a whopping $1 billion in stock speculation. Surrounded by his fellow financial manipulators, Soros explained his recent losses while attending the recent World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

Soros’s mega-wealthy cronies placed their own bets against smaller Dutch firms. Those firms included Ordina, an information technology firm; Advanced Metallurgical Group; and the real estate group Wereldhave N.V.

Beware the Ides of March - The Soros data release comes at a particularly sensitive time in Dutch politics. The center-right government led by Prime Minister Mark Rutte is on the political ropes as it tries to fend off, in an election scheduled for March 15, a serious challenge by the right-nationalist Party for Freedom (PVV) of anti-migrant and anti-European Union leader Geert Wilders. An ally of Donald Trump, Wilders is likely to make political hay out of the fact that Soros, the champion of European open borders and mass migration, bet against Dutch banks. The Ides of March looks favorably upon a Wilders victory, an event that will drive another nail into the coffin of the European Union and Soros’s mass migration and open borders dream.

The Netherlands has not been particularly friendly to Soros and his goals. In November 2016, Soros's Open Society Foundations, and two groups funded by Soros - the European Network Against Racism and Gender Concerns International - advertised job openings for Dutch youth «between the ages 17-26» who are Muslim immigrants and the children or grandchildren of Muslim immigrants to campaign against parties like those of Wilders and Rutte.

Prime Minister Rutte recently issued a warning to migrants who refuse to assimilate into Dutch society. Of course, Rutte was not referring to the thousands of migrants from former Dutch colonies in the Dutch East and West Indies who had no problem adopting Dutch culture, religion, and social manners. Rutte, who faces a 9-point lead by Wilders’s PVV, had some pointed words for the Muslim migrants in the Netherlands. In an interview with «Algemeen Dagblad», Rutte, in what could have been a speech by Wilders, said:

«I tell everyone. If you don’t like it here in this country, get out, get out! That’s the choice you have. If you live in a country where the ways of dealing with others annoys you, you have a choice, go away. You do not need to be here.» Rutte had particular disdain for those who «don’t want to adapt… who attack gay people, shout at women in short skirts, or call ordinary Dutch people racist». Rutte left very little doubt about to whom he was referring, the recently-arrived Muslim migrants, «There have always been people who exhibited deviant behavior. But something has come to pass in the last year where we, as a society, should have an answer. With the arrival of large groups of refugees, the question arises: will the Netherlands still be the Netherlands?»

Coming from a one-time committed Euroatlanticist supporter of NATO, the EU, and the World Bank, Rutte’s words about migrants must have come as a complete shock to Soros and his minions.

The exposure of Soros's financial manipulation of the Dutch economy is sure to enrage Dutch citizens already weary of migrants and diktats by the European Union. In April 2016, Dutch citizens overwhelmingly rejected the EU-Ukraine treaty that called for closer ties between the EU and the Kiev regime. The outcome enraged Soros, who is one of the Kiev regime's principal puppet masters.

NGO «Santa Claus» now faces many closed doors - Europe once praised Soros as some sort of benevolent «Santa Claus,» who handed out millions for «good deeds» to one-world government proponents and other starry-eyed utopians. However, the veneer of Soros is wearing thin.

Russia was the first to call out Soros for his interference in Russian politics. The Soros plan to destabilize Russia, dubbed the «Russia Project» by Soros's Open Society Institute and Foundation, foresaw the outbreak of Ukrainian-style «Maidan Square» uprisings in cities across Russia. In November 2015, the Russian Prosecutor-General's office announced the proscription of activities of the Open Society Institute and the Open Society Institute Assistance Foundation for endangering Russia’s constitutional order and national security.

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban now leads the anti-Soros groundswell in Europe. The optics of Orban becoming the first European Union leader to go after the Hungarian-born Soros and his destabilization operations has not been lost on other EU leaders, including those in Poland and the Czech Republic. Orban has accused Soros of masterminding the migrant invasion of Europe. In retaliation for these and other moves by Soros, Orban has warned that the various non-governmental organizations (NGOs) backed by Soros risk being expelled from Europe altogether.

Orban has been joined in venting his anger about Soros by former Macedonian prime minister Nikola Gruevski, who was forced from office and an early election after Soros-inspired demonstrations in his country took place amid a massive influx of Muslim migrants from Greece.

Referring to Soros's global political operations, the former Macedonian prime minister said in a recent interview, «He is not doing that just in Macedonia, but in the Balkans, across Eastern Europe, and now, most recently, in the United States. Secondly, from what I’ve read about him, in some countries he does it for material and financial reasons, to earn a lot of money, while in others for ideological reasons».

In Poland, where Soros has been very influential, a Member of Parliament for the ruling right-wing Law and Justice Party (PiS), Krystyna Pawłowicz, recently demanded that Soros be stripped of Poland's highest honor for foreigners, the Commander with Star of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Poland. Pawłowicz considers Soros's operations in Poland to be illegal. She also believes that Soros's organizations are «financing the anti-democratic and anti-Polish element with a view to fight Polish sovereignty and indigenous Christian culture».

Czech President Milos said, in a 2016 interview, «some of his [Soros's] activities are at least suspicious and they strikingly remind of interferences in [countries'] internal affairs. The organizing of what is known as color revolutions in individual countries is an interesting hobby, but it brings more harm than benefit to the countries concerned». Zeman claimed Soros was planning a color revolution for the Czech Republic.

Aivars Lembergs, the mayor of Ventspils, Latvia and a leader of the Union of Greens and Peasants, wants Soros and his NGOs banned from Latvia. Lembergs argues that two Soros publications in Latvia - Delna and Providus – have propagandized in favor of Latvia receiving Muslim migrants. Lembergs sees the migrants and Soros's support for them as endangering Latvian state security. The mayor believes that «George Soros must be outlawed in Latvia. He must be banned from entering the country».

In neighboring Lithuania, the Labor Party has also questioned Soros's activities in the country. The party and its parliamentary allies have asked Lithuania's security services to investigate the «financial schemes and networks» of Soros because of the threat they pose to national security. The Lithuanian parties claim that Soros groups specialize at «not consolidating, but dividing, society».

It is no longer easy being a meddlesome multibillionaire who overthrows governments with the snap of a finger. Soros has not only alienated the President of Russia and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom but now the President of the United States. Soros is also enemy number one among the leaders of China. With such an array of enemies, it is doubtful Soros will have any more political successes like Ukraine or Georgia. With all of his billions, Mr. Soros now only commands a «paper doll army».
 
Well, watching how things have transpired and developed over the past couple of weeks, one thing is clear, we need to pick our battles very carefully. Nothing is black and white. Trump's immigration order was ham-handed for sure and his guy "Mad Dog Mattis" is making a muddle, and Nikki Haley is an embarrassment. The main positive things I've noted are Trump admitting that the US doesn't have clean hands in his interview with that cretin O'Reilly, and saying he would defer to those who think torture is ineffective. And that last one doesn't say much positive about Trump himself!

One thing that really puzzles me: for the past 15 years we've been bombarded with "Radical Islamic Terrorism" by the state terrorists who launched the war of terror against the whole world on 9-11. That, certainly, turned a significant number of Muslims into terrorists, but mainly the ones who would be terrorists no matter what their religion. Heck, probably most of them aren't even real devout Muslims of any kind, and a whole LOT of terrorist activity is committed by the aforementioned state terrorists in the form of false flag ops. Okay, so why didn't that propaganda "take" on the screaming lefties??? Why did it only "take" on the Trump supporter types?

A related question is: why did these lefties buy into the Obama lies so willingly? After all, Obama has done more evil killing of Muslims than Bush did... well, excluding the LOTS of Iraqis who died in the destruction of that country.

So, the lefties didn't get the "Radical Muslim Terrorist" programming, and they DID get the "Obama is a good guy even though he's worse than Bush ever was" programming. And I'm not even sure that the Trump supporter types really grok how evil Obama was, they just know they don't have jobs and there are immigrants getting welfare and jobs.

It's all very puzzling. Both sides seem to be susceptible to particular forms of propaganda, lies and self-deception.

Even some of what we thought were the "good guys" have gone whacko. See: https://www.sott.net/article/341631-People-be-losing-their-minds-Even-The-Intercept-gets-Trumps-immigration-order-so-wrong

It's about an article with the "muslim ban" term in the headline, but in the first sentence, says: "President Trump’s January 27 executive order temporarily banning immigrants and refugees from seven majority Muslim countries." In other words, it is not really a MUSLIM ban. ‌

_‌https://theintercept.com/2017/02/03/trump-muslim-ban-executive-order-violated-executive-order-about-executive-orders/

The intercept is the gang that Greenwald helped found with his Snowden files.

In Snowden's latest interview with Katie Couric, he sounds very reasonable and I like him, but there is an odd flavor to it that is disturbing.

So, anyway, it just seems to me that the whole thing is a minefield and we need to pick our way with care and not get taken in by either side.
 
Alana and Scottie, what you said is something that usually occupies my mind.

When I find Sott I was on the other side and although the information resonated with me, sometimes I was struck by some "sensational" comments that prevented me from sharing with my friends. Since I had the idea that a serious media should communicate "impartially" like the BBC or something. And now I'm being "sensational" for other people probably :D

The world is upside down, how can we avoid offending or generating more division by telling the truth? I think it's like an art that has to be perfected, with impeccability and compassion as Scottie says. With empathy according to whom we are addressing and being clear that the objective by which one refutes a lie or publishes news is to plant seeds that can go to the place less expected, sometimes that involves frictions that we should not take personally. I think I repeated what you said

I find it interesting to listen or see other people's evidence to the information that seems wrong to me, to see how and why these people think so and to raise or seek information here, I am surprised how they abandon the conversation most of the time, including scientists.

A while ago, before starting to help in sott I wondered why I shared news if no one liked, but then I was surprised when several people I met at different stages of my life told me about my interesting posts with which they never interacted and some told me that they recommended the subject to another friend. I also noticed that other people with whom I usually talk, who never liked sott news maybe because their ego, fear or shame (as it happen to me sometimes because I don't want to frighten potential clients) however they investigate and raise the issue from other sources in their profiles. Maybe they won't do the work but can motivate other people to motivate others. As the movies Pay It Forward or The Butterfly Effect :)
 
Laura said:
It's all very puzzling. Both sides seem to be susceptible to particular forms of propaganda, lies and self-deception.

One interesting thing is that both sides, including the semi-alternative news crowd on the left and the right (like the Intercept and the right-wing media), don't get much into the big 'conspiracy' angles - 9/11, false flags etc. Then you have the conspiracy crowd going bonkers with flat earth, actors theory and so on.

I think it was good that the focus recently was more on semi-mainstream-compatible angles like imperialism, US meddling etc., but maybe it's time to bring back some of the more far-out things? I mean, the 'terrorism' narrative of the right-wingers completely crumbles once you factor in 9/11 and other false flags. The narrative on the left also crumbles in light of the massive deception across all party lines.

Not sure though, but I find it interesting that the conspiracy angle kind of faded to the background of the alternative discourse (if that's the case). It's worth noting as well that RT, while doing such a remarkable job navigating the waters and neither siding with the left nor the right, also stopped talking about 9/11 and false flags completely. But that's kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it?
 
Laura said:
One thing that really puzzles me: for the past 15 years we've been bombarded with "Radical Islamic Terrorism" by the state terrorists who launched the war of terror against the whole world on 9-11. That, certainly, turned a significant number of Muslims into terrorists, but mainly the ones who would be terrorists no matter what their religion. Heck, probably most of them aren't even real devout Muslims of any kind, and a whole LOT of terrorist activity is committed by the aforementioned state terrorists in the form of false flag ops. Okay, so why didn't that propaganda "take" on the screaming lefties??? Why did it only "take" on the Trump supporter types?

I'm wondering if the 'Trump supporter types' were just anti-Hillary? I'm fairly sure it was these people who got Trump elected, not those who think he's the 'best thing since sliced bread'. Just not as bad or as evil as Hillary!

Both sides seem to have their propaganda, lies and, if we're honest complete evil lurking beneath. They also have their good points too. Unfortunately most of the general public seems completely oblivious to it all and believe and behave entirely in the way they are 'meant' to, due to the manipulation of mainstream media and fogging by environmental toxins.
 
luc said:
Not sure though, but I find it interesting that the conspiracy angle kind of faded to the background of the alternative discourse (if that's the case). It's worth noting as well that RT, while doing such a remarkable job navigating the waters and neither siding with the left nor the right, also stopped talking about 9/11 and false flags completely. But that's kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it?

Actually I think the elephant in the room is the fall of the American Empire. Which Trump will be blamed for, of course.

Recently, I watched this vid again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1m3TjokVU4

And I was speculating at what 'fascist dawn' actually meant, as apposed to the situation we are currently in. It is obvious how little rights we have anymore. We are no longer free or trusted human beings by those in control. We are as serfs were in the middle ages. The difference between the top and the lower classes has become disparate, and we have no power anymore.

If Hitler had got in as President (I mean Hillary), I definitely think there would have been a repeat of the sort of totalitarian regime that Hitler would have approved of. But, because now that Trump is in, have we skipped that part? It was just a speculation.

I thought the music in the end credits was eerily appropriate. 'Darkness is Coming' by Kevin MacLeod. Spooky.
 
Scottie said:
So anyway, what I'm seeing in some cases is that some of us are condemning the "liberal left" with rather emotionally-charged language as if they are Untermensch.

[...]

I think the best way to deal with this stuff is to post things WITHOUT directly addressing any person or group. Give data that contradicts something, and ask simple questions in an emotionally-neutral way so that MAYBE people will think. If not now, then the seed is planted for the future. Maybe...

I’ve been thinking along similar lines. There are a couple of problems that go together here, you mentioned the strange facts of left suddenly becoming right, of Hillary being a sure thing to trump getting in etc, etc, I think those repeated twists of fate are a massive shock to the system, and the way things are breaking down it’s affecting people’s identities, on a personal and social level. So you go to bed, wake up the next day and "poof" your reality disappeared!

Most folk are asleep most of the time, are basically just reacting to stuff and conforming to the social conditioning pressures from the perceived majority. Well it’s a huge emotional shock when that comfortable little life gets disrupted! And in that state it’s easy to swing out and react, some folk though do seem to have gone too far the other way and I wonder if that’s an unconscious way to try and get back onto the stable ground of "us" and "them", of wanting to conform to the new majority, to be socially conditioned once again and find comfort in being a follower.

Some folk on the "left" are obviously pathological, as are some on the "right". The problem at the moment is that it’s easy for them to agitate others who are in a state of shock, Amygdala hijacking on masse. It looks coherent, in a 'yeah, we’re all in this together, we can fight back, there’s so many of us and we all think and feel the same, yay!' (and partly 'yay' because it gives a temporary sense of identity and belonging once again).

Problem is, when everything was cozy and comfortable they didn’t seem to have the same problems, didn’t all get out on the streets. Why is that then? Well this chicken was doing the rounds on FB yesterday and seems to sum the problem up pretty well I think...


Obviously the chicken hasn’t learned to play the sing by heart, it’s just pecking at the red dots and going after the stimulus as any chicken would. But take away the context of the lights in the keys flashing as they do, and it appears to be coherent, spontaneous. Amazing. Now, consider each red dot as a meme, a share, a reactive comment on social media. If there were some unseen overarching intelligence behind which 'dots' appear where and in what order, well that couldn’t that similarly produce the appearance of spontaneous coherent thought/actions, but spread across millions of people?

If that’s the case, which seems pretty sure to be so, then if we go with the meme-based reactive style of posting and commenting, then aren’t we just popping a red dot up there along with the rest of them? For others to then peck away at after their own fashion? We create more problems 'out there' if we’re then triggering others rather than encouraging them to think, and we’re doing ourselves a disservice by similarly failing to think and falling prey to whoever it was that set out to push our 'take that you son of a...' button.

So it’s kind of a battle going on, between maintaining sovereign thoughts and/or going with the emotions of the group. And what if it’s not just via memes etc that the social construct of reality is shared and experienced? What we project and receive the 'agreed upon terms of reference' on masse via some more 'psychic' means. Wouldn’t that create huge pressure to conform and also change behaviors? No wonder it’s making so many people crazy if so.

Our job then, is to keep our heads I think!:

[quote author=If by Rudyard Kipling]
IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son![/quote]
 
Thank you for the inspiring comments Scottie and Alana!

For me, I tend to reject the tweets or FB posts that are offensive, although I did get carried away sharing some things that were a bit offensive probably. And, as I said before, I got caught up in a discussion with my brother that was difficult to navigate because of the mixed emotional charge. As Ant22 said, when it's someone close, it's harder to keep cool about it.

When I talk to people, I'm trying to find a common ground from which to discuss things, what I find (most of the time) is that we can agree in general things, for example, the idea that the elites play their own games and that we don't really know yet what will come. The common ground with the average people is that they want to work and live their lives well enough, have food and goods for their children, be respected, etc. I love to talk to people because most of the time (at least around me) they give a very simple and common sense view of things, and so I find it amazing how then, they tend to be pushed to one side or the other regarding political issues. What I'm thinking is that, most of the time, people aren't reflecting on ideas behind policies, or on the policies themselves, and what they mean or what would be the consequence. Normally they listen to commentators across different places such as the TV, radio and social media. So, if they like one particular commentator, they normally go with his/her ideas without much thought. With that, I'm not bashing people by saying they are ignorant, it's just one of the things that appear to be happening. So, how do I approach the hairdresser or my colleagues at work? I try to listen to them, because I'm actually curious about what they think. I sometimes ask what they think about something in particular, and then, if they seem to be interested I tell them what I think in very general terms. If they seem more interested, I share articles or even books with them.

What I've seen is that left or right, atheist or religious, there are good people in every group, and also bad people. Unfortunately, my experience has been that that those who tend to hold the microphones in these groups are normally the "bad" ones, because it's easier for them to go up and talk, talk, talk, to be certain about what they think because they do not consider that they might be wrong. Again, I'm not saying that this is always the case, but I've seen this in many movements of organizations.
 
Laura said:
In Snowden's latest interview with Katie Couric, he sounds very reasonable and I like him, but there is an odd flavor to it that is disturbing.

So, anyway, it just seems to me that the whole thing is a minefield and we need to pick our way with care and not get taken in by either side.

I can understand and appreciate as the C's have expressed to know one's self. With the prospects of disabling the triggering mechanisms that put us in danger of the pandemic mind set.

It is a mind-field. Not to change the wording of what is meant. But it does help to fully understand how pernicious is in the United States and to quote "one thing is clear, we need to pick our battles very carefully. Nothing is black and white."

So like so many others have come to Know. We have been gifted many safe guards as means of guidance that we continue to share and network.

And as we do we may for fill our lesson plan, in this incarnation, and hopefully graduate to 4DSTO. That would be so Cool.

 
Laura said:
Well, watching how things have transpired and developed over the past couple of weeks, one thing is clear, we need to pick our battles very carefully. Nothing is black and white. Trump's immigration order was ham-handed for sure and his guy "Mad Dog Mattis" is making a muddle, and Nikki Haley is an embarrassment. The main positive things I've noted are Trump admitting that the US doesn't have clean hands in his interview with that cretin O'Reilly, and saying he would defer to those who think torture is ineffective. And that last one doesn't say much positive about Trump himself!

One thing that really puzzles me: for the past 15 years we've been bombarded with "Radical Islamic Terrorism" by the state terrorists who launched the war of terror against the whole world on 9-11. That, certainly, turned a significant number of Muslims into terrorists, but mainly the ones who would be terrorists no matter what their religion. Heck, probably most of them aren't even real devout Muslims of any kind, and a whole LOT of terrorist activity is committed by the aforementioned state terrorists in the form of false flag ops. Okay, so why didn't that propaganda "take" on the screaming lefties??? Why did it only "take" on the Trump supporter types?
Might it be that the "screaming lefties" have less religious programming?

A related question is: why did these lefties buy into the Obama lies so willingly? After all, Obama has done more evil killing of Muslims than Bush did... well, excluding the LOTS of Iraqis who died in the destruction of that country.
In Europe, the fact that he was the first black president and Democrat gave him a HUGE amount of good will. And he got a peace prize:
From the Wikipedia about the motivations for giving Obama the Nobel Prize:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Nobel_Peace_Prize said:
Jagland said "We have not given the prize for what may happen in the future. We are awarding Obama for what he has done in the past year. And we are hoping this may contribute a little bit for what he is trying to do," noting that he hoped the award would assist Obama's foreign policy efforts. Jagland said the committee was influenced by a speech Obama gave about Islam in Cairo in June 2009, the president's efforts to prevent nuclear proliferation and climate change, and Obama's support for using established international bodies such as the United Nations to pursue foreign policy goals.[11] The New York Times reported that Jagland shrugged off the question of whether "the committee feared being labeled naïve for accepting a young politician's promises at face value", stating that "no one could deny that 'the international climate' had suddenly improved, and that Mr. Obama was the main reason...'We want to embrace the message that he stands for.'"[9]
While it is true that Obama did not end wars, many did not think it was so bad as Bush who had started the wars that killed also many NATO soldiers. Obama went seriously for Libya but it was soon forgotten, as the country was demolished in half a year and almost everyone believed in the necessity of the NATO action in the first place.

Not only was Obama black, with women like Rice, Clinton, Power, Nuland ... in prominent posts, what could possibly be wrong and go wrong?

It's all very puzzling. Both sides seem to be susceptible to particular forms of propaganda, lies and self-deception.
Evidence is apparently interpreted to confirm already existing thought patterns and this can be found in many other countries too.
 
luc said:
One interesting thing is that both sides, including the semi-alternative news crowd on the left and the right (like the Intercept and the right-wing media), don't get much into the big 'conspiracy' angles - 9/11, false flags etc. Then you have the conspiracy crowd going bonkers with flat earth, actors theory and so on.

I think it was good that the focus recently was more on semi-mainstream-compatible angles like imperialism, US meddling etc., but maybe it's time to bring back some of the more far-out things? I mean, the 'terrorism' narrative of the right-wingers completely crumbles once you factor in 9/11 and other false flags. The narrative on the left also crumbles in light of the massive deception across all party lines.

Not sure though, but I find it interesting that the conspiracy angle kind of faded to the background of the alternative discourse (if that's the case). It's worth noting as well that RT, while doing such a remarkable job navigating the waters and neither siding with the left nor the right, also stopped talking about 9/11 and false flags completely. But that's kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it?

Yeah. We need to get back to the roots of the issues: 9-11 as an inside/MOSSAD job designed to demonize Muslims; the War OF Terror waged by the Terror State and its cronies in the ME and EU; ignoring real climate change while propagandizing global warming and carbon taxes; and of course, the biggies, psychopaths and pedophiles in power.

All we have to do is read Protocol 12 to get our bearings:

PROTOCOL No. 12

1. The word "freedom," which can be interpreted in various ways, is defined by us as follows –

2. Freedom is the right to do what which the law allows. This interpretation of the word will at the proper time be of service to us, because all freedom will thus be in our hands, since the laws will abolish or create only that which is desirable for us according to the aforesaid program.

3. We shall deal with the press in the following way: what is the part played by the press to-day? It serves to excite and inflame those passions which are needed for our purpose or else it serves selfish ends of parties. It is often vapid, unjust, mendacious, and the majority of the public have not the slightest idea what ends the press really serves. We shall saddle and bridle it with a tight curb: we shall do the same also with all productions of the printing press, for where would be the sense of getting rid of the attacks of the press if we remain targets for pamphlets and books? The produce of publicity, which nowadays is a source of heavy expense owing to the necessity of censoring it, will be turned by us into a very lucrative source of income to our State: we shall lay on it a special stamp tax and require deposits of caution-money before permitting the establishment of any organ of the press or of printing offices; these will then have to guarantee our government against any kind of attack on the part of the press. For any attempt to attack us, if such still be possible, we shall inflict fines without mercy. Such measures as stamp tax, deposit of caution-money and fines secured by these deposits, will bring in a huge income to the government. It is true that party organs might not spare money for the sake of publicity, but these we shall shut up at the second attack upon us. No one shall with impunity lay a finger on the aureole of our government infallibility. The pretext for stopping any publication will be the alleged plea that it is agitating the public mind without occasion or justification. I BEG YOU TO NOTE THAT AMONG THOSE MAKING ATTACKS UPON US WILL ALSO BE ORGANS ESTABLISHED BY US, BUT THEY WILL ATTACK EXCLUSIVELY POINTS THAT WE HAVE PRE-DETERMINED TO ALTER.
WE CONTROL THE PRESS

4. NOT A SINGLE ANNOUNCEMENT WILL REACH THE PUBLIC WITHOUT OUR CONTROL. Even now this is already being attained by us inasmuch as all news items are received by a few agencies, in whose offices they are focused from all parts of the world. These agencies will then be already entirely ours and will give publicity only to what we dictate to them.

5. If already now we have contrived to possess ourselves of the minds of the GOY communities to such an extent the they all come near looking upon the events of the world through the colored glasses of those spectacles we are setting astride their noses; if already now there is not a single State where there exist for us any barriers to admittance into what GOY stupidity calls State secrets: what will our positions be then, when we shall be acknowledged supreme lords of the world in the person of our king of all the world ....

6. Let us turn again to the FUTURE OF THE PRINTING PRESS. Every one desirous of being a publisher, librarian, or printer, will be obliged to provide himself with the diploma instituted therefore, which, in case of any fault, will be immediately impounded. With such measures THE INSTRUMENT OF THOUGHT WILL BECOME AN EDUCATIVE MEANS ON THE HANDS OF OUR GOVERNMENT, WHICH WILL NO LONGER ALLOW THE MASS OF THE NATION TO BE LED ASTRAY IN BY-WAYS AND FANTASIES ABOUT THE BLESSINGS OF PROGRESS. Is there any one of us who does not know that these phantom blessings are the direct roads to foolish imaginings which give birth to anarchical relations of men among themselves and towards authority, because progress, or rather the idea of progress, has introduced the conception of every kind of emancipation, but has failed to establish its limits .... All the so-called liberals are anarchists, if not in fact, at any rate in thought. Every one of them in hunting after phantoms of freedom, and falling exclusively into license, that is, into the anarchy of protest for the sake of protest....
FREE PRESS DESTROYED

7. We turn to the periodical press. We shall impose on it, as on all printed matter, stamp taxes per sheet and deposits of caution-money, and books of less than 30 sheets will pay double. We shall reckon them as pamphlets in order, on the one hand, to reduce the number of magazines, which are the worst form of printed poison, and, on the other, in order that this measure may force writers into such lengthy productions that they will be little read, especially as they will be costly. At the same time what we shall publish ourselves to influence mental development in the direction laid down for our profit will be cheap and will be read voraciously. The tax will bring vapid literary ambitions within bounds and the liability to penalties will make literary men dependent upon us. And if there should be any found who are desirous of writing against us, they will not find any person eager to print their productions. Before accepting any production for publication in print, the publisher or printer will have to apply to the authorities for permission to do so. Thus we shall know beforehand of all tricks preparing against us and shall nullify them by getting ahead with explanations on the subject treated of.

8. Literature and journalism are two of the most important educative forces, and therefore our government will become proprietor of the majority of the journals. This will neutralize the injurious influence of the privately-owned press and will put us in possession of a tremendous influence upon the public mind .... If we give permits for ten journals, we shall ourselves found thirty, and so on in the same proportion. This, however, must in no wise be suspected by the public. For which reason all journals published by us will be of the most opposite, in appearance, tendencies and opinions, thereby creating confidence in us and bringing over to us quite unsuspicious opponents, who will thus fall into our trap and be rendered harmless.

9. In the front rank will stand organs of an official character. They will always stand guard over our interests, and therefore their influence will be comparatively insignificant.

10. In the second rank will be the semi-official organs, whose part it will be to attack the tepid and indifferent.

11. In the third rank we shall set up our own, to all appearance, opposition, which, in at least one of its organs [Nazism? – Ed], will present what looks like the very antipodes to us. Our real opponents at heart will accept this simulated opposition as their own and will show us their cards.

12. All our newspapers will be of all possible complexions— aristocratic, republican, revolutionary, even anarchical—for so long, of course, as the constitution exists .... Like the Indian idol "Vishnu" they will have a hundred hands, and every one of them will have a finger on any one of the public opinions as required. When a pulse quickens these hands will lead opinion in the direction of our aims, for an excited patient loses all power of judgment and easily yields to suggestion. Those fools who will think they are repeating the opinion of a newspaper of their own camp will be repeating our opinion or any opinion that seems desirable for us. In the vain belief that they are following the organ of their party they will, in fact, follow the flag which we hang out for them.

13. In order to direct our newspaper militia in this sense we must take special and minute care in organizing this matter. Under the title of central department of the press we shall institute literary gatherings at which our agents will without attracting attention issue the orders and watchwords of the day. By discussing and controverting, but always superficially, without touching the essence of the matter, our organs will carry on a sham fight fusillade with the official newspapers solely for the purpose of giving occasion for us to express ourselves more fully than could well be done from the outset in official announcements, whenever, of course, that is to our advantage.

14. THESE ATTACKS UPON US WILL ALSO SERVE ANOTHER PURPOSE, NAMELY, THAT OUR SUBJECTS WILL BE CONVINCED TO THE EXISTENCE OF FULL FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND SO GIVE OUR AGENTS AN OCCASION TO AFFIRM THAT ALL ORGANS WHICH OPPOSE US ARE EMPTY BABBLERS, since they are incapable of finding any substantial objections to our orders.
ONLY LIES PRINTED

15. Methods of organization like these, imperceptible to the public eye but absolutely sure, are the best calculated to succeed in bringing the attention and the confidence of the public to the side of our government. Thanks to such methods we shall be in a position as from time to time may be required, to excite or to tranquillize the public mind on political questions, to persuade or to confuse, printing now truth, now lies, facts or their contradictions, according as they may be well or ill received, always very cautiously feeling our ground before stepping upon it .... WE SHALL HAVE A SURE TRIUMPH OVER OUR OPPONENTS SINCE THEY WILL NOT HAVE AT THEIR DISPOSITION ORGANS OF THE PRESS IN WHICH THEY CAN GIVE FULL AND FINAL EXPRESSION TO THEIR VIEWS owing to the aforesaid methods of dealing with the press. We shall not even need to refute them except very superficially.

16. Trial shots like these, fired by us in the third rank of our press, in case of need, will be energetically refuted by us in our semi-official organs.

17. Even nowadays, already, to take only the French press, there are forms which reveal masonic solidarity in acting on the watchword: all organs of the press are bound together by professional secrecy; like the augurs of old, not one of their numbers will give away the secret of his sources of information unless it be resolved to make announcement of them. Not one journalist will venture to betray this secret, for not one of them is ever admitted to practice literature unless his whole past has some disgraceful sore or other .... These sores would be immediately revealed. So long as they remain the secret of a few the prestige of the journalist attracts the majority of the country—the mob follow after him with enthusiasm.

18. Our calculations are especially extended to the provinces. It is indispensable for us to inflame there those hopes and impulses with which we could at any moment fall upon the capital, and we shall represent to the capitals that these expressions are the independent hopes and impulses of the provinces. Naturally, the source of them will be always one and the same—ours. WHAT WE NEED IS THAT, UNTIL SUCH TIME AS WE ARE IN THE PLENITUDE POWER, THE CAPITALS SHOULD FIND THEMSELVES STIFLED BY THE PROVINCIAL OPINION OF THE NATIONS, I.E., OF A MAJORITY ARRANGED BY OUR AGENTUR. What we need is that at the psychological moment the capitals should not be in a position to discuss an accomplished fact for the simple reason, if for no other, that it has been accepted by the public opinion of a majority in the provinces.

19. WHEN WE ARE IN THE PERIOD OF THE NEW REGIME TRANSITIONAL TO THAT OF OUR ASSUMPTION OF FULL SOVEREIGNTY WE MUST NOT ADMIT ANY REVELATION BY THE PRESS OF ANY FORM OF PUBLIC DISHONESTY; IT IS NECESSARY THAT THE NEW REGIME SHOULD BE THOUGHT TO HAVE SO PERFECTLY CONTENDED EVERYBODY THAT EVEN CRIMINALITY HAS DISAPPEARED ... Cases of the manifestation of criminality should remain known only to their victims and to chance witnesses—no more.

Consider also this:
https://www.sott.net/article/275994-Protocol-12-How-American-neocons-stage-attacks-against-alternative-media-report
 
Some food for thought.

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_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXyZ3K3bje8

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_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLS5h1ZDKvE
 

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