Us in the future : technological civilisation or what ?

[lindrie]

IMO technology is only ever neutral, whether its Industrial Technology or Digital Technology or anything in between. How its use, the mindset, makes the outcome positive or negative.

Our current world is STS, so of course its destructive. Industrial technology just allows us, 3D STS, to be destructive on an industrial scale. Coercion of the masses is a side effect of the STS creatures, not the technology.

In this era, we have not had the opportunity to even attempt to implement a "positive" technology, on a mass scale, without corruption co-opting it early on, or even intentionally derailing it, so I think. Nobody from the bottom got together and said "we want, specifically, a lithium battery to power an EV" or fill in whatever tech that is causing massive environmental destruction. The gov't, banks (like ESG scores), whoever's on top pushed subsidies to incentivize business to move towards it. This is the nature of the STS society, not the tech.

So while I understand the negative mentality towards our current usage of technology, I think it blocked out any future potential of positive movement towards an STO type of technology if technology is only seen as a negative.

I'm mean, think about it, we're going to eventually have to create some kind of technology to clean up the mass amount of pollution we're generating. Or should we not even bother since all technology is authoritarian and will damage the environment?

 

[curious_richard]

Industrial technology is never ever neutral. You need a coercitive mass civilisation in order to built it.

I do not agree.

 

[Esote]

@lindrie and @curious_richard : How do you build a technological-industrial civilisation without coercition and exploitation, which comes with a psychopathic mindset in the first place as mentioned previously, I wonder ?

Of course now we need more high techno in order to try to repair a tiny part of the damages, adding other pollutions, destructions and mass control in the process, hoping to continue more or less our way of life, the very one being the problem itself.

The purpose of this thread is to understand what really means a technological civilisation and what our future has in store, according to the C's in particular, about this topic.
So far, I'm inclined to see our times as the end of a devolution cycle, when materialistic-psychopathic values are at their climax, where industrial technology is the consequence, like it or not

 

[lindrie]

How do you build a technological-industrial civilisation without coercition and exploitation,

Ask. Every step of the way.

The bigger question is, is this feasible in our STS world? What steps can we do now to orient ourselves in that manner (to not be coercive and exploitative when technology is in-use)?

The waste processing plant example earlier is what I think of as an STO-oriented technology that exist now while still living in our STS world. We don't have to clean up our (even literal) poop, but we have implemented tech to do so. Is it implemented well? Of course not, we still have pollution everywhere. There are companies which don't even use it.

which comes with a psychopathic mindset in the first place as mentioned previously, I wonder ?

A logical fallacy, which I had hoped to highlight to you by contrasting with the above, non-hypothetical example.

Let's flip it around:
A psychopathic mindset, leads to a technological-industrial civilisation - I highly disagree. I have yet to see anything touched by a psychopathic mindset grow, even by a little. Small groups of people fall part so fast with them around, how can a civilization even form from that? I don't believe it can.

A psychopathic mindset, leads to coercition and exploitation - I absolutely agree. Hopefully, needs no further explanation.

Is our current technological-industrial civilization, coercive and exploitative? Yes, I think so. However, for me, its not the technology that causes the coercion and exploitation, its the psychopathic mindset. My stance: the mindset determines whether the technology is created in a coercive and exploitative manner, or, created in a regenerative or non-destructive manner.

---

What would an STO-oriented technological-industrial civilization look like? What would an STO-oriented technology look like? I'd like to know as well. But it's going to be hard to have an open discussion if technology, itself, is already marked as something that needs to be thrown away while being the crux of what is to be discussed.

 

[Esote]

What would an STO-oriented technological-industrial civilization look like? What would an STO-oriented technology look like? I'd like to know as well. But it's going to be hard to have an open discussion if technology, itself, is already marked as something that needs to be thrown away while being the crux of what is to be discussed.

Let me be clear :
An STO-oriented technological-industrial civilization can't exist in any way, because it would always need exploitation-destruction of nature plus a hierarchical coercitive society in order to expand, OSIT.
Another STO-oriented technology is conceivable, but certainly not industrial, which comes inevitably with huge environmental and social negative impacts and is a byproduct of the psychopathic mindset.
Our world as it is nowadays is doomed to change drastically. In an STO evolution perspective, there is no place for massive abuse like in any techno-industrial society.
Then in an STO world in our future, would we need any kind of technology?

 

[iamthatis]

Let me be clear :
An STO-oriented technological-industrial civilization can't exist in any way, because it would always need exploitation-destruction of nature plus a hierarchical coercitive society in order to expand, OSIT.
Another STO-oriented technology is conceivable, but certainly not industrial, which comes inevitably with huge environmental and social negative impacts and is a byproduct of the psychopathic mindset.
Our world as it is nowadays is doomed to change drastically. In an STO evolution perspective, there is no place for massive abuse like in any techno-industrial society.
Then in an STO world in our future, would we need any kind of technology?

In the sessions it’s mentioned that Mother Earth offers up her resources for our use. She does so willingly. So what to make of that?

One could see an open pit mine as a travesty, or it could be simply making use of what is offered. The question is, how is it taken, and for what purpose?

Many pre-modern and shamanic peoples around the globe understood that making use of what is offered (natural materials) must be paid for. Just like Gurdjieff said - if you want to advance, you must pay. Shamanic peoples were and are very different than us tho, and made sacrificial offerings in order to pay to use a resource. Here’s one perspective on that:

The Sun Magazine | Saving The Indigenous Soul | By Derrick Jensen | Issue 304

The Mayans say that the other world sings us into being. We are its song. We’re made of sound, and as the sound passes through the sieve between this worl

www.thesunmagazine.org

Technological inventions take from the earth but give nothing in return. Look at automobiles. They were, in a sense, dreamed up over a period of time, with different people adding on to each other’s dreams — or, if you prefer, adding on to each other’s studies and trials. But all along the way, very little, if anything, was given back to the hungry, invisible divinity that gave people the ability to invent those cars. Now, in a healthy culture, that’s where the shamans would come in, because with every invention comes a spiritual debt that must be paid, either ritually, or else taken out of us in warfare, grief, or depression.

A knife, for instance, is a very minimal, almost primitive tool to people in a modern industrial society. But for the Mayan people, the spiritual debt that must be paid for the creation of such a tool is great. To start with, the person who is going to make the knife has to build a fire hot enough to produce coals. To pay for that, he’s got to give a sacrificial gift to the fuel, to the fire.

Jensen: Like what?

Prechtel: Ideally, the gift should be something made by hand, which is the one thing humans have that spirits don’t.

Once the fire is hot enough, the knife maker must smelt the iron ore out of the rock. The part that’s left over, which gets thrown away in Western culture, is the most holy part in shamanic rituals. What’s left over represents the debt, the hollowness that’s been carved out of the universe by human ingenuity, and so must be refilled with human ingenuity. A ritual gift equal to the amount that was removed from the other world has to be put back to make up for the wound caused to the divine. Human ingenuity is a wonderful thing, but only so long as it’s used to feed the deities that give us the ability to perform such extravagant feats in the first place.

So, just to get the iron, the shaman has to pay for the ore, the fire, the wind, and so on — not in dollars and cents, but in ritual activity equal to what’s been given. Then that iron must be made into steel, and the steel has to be hammered into the shape of a knife, sharpened, and tempered, and a handle must be put on it. There is a deity to be fed for each part of the procedure. When the knife is finished, it is called the “tooth of earth.” It will cut wood, meat, and plants. But if the necessary sacrifices have been ignored in the name of rationalism, literalism, and human superiority, it will cut humans instead.

All of those ritual gifts make the knife enormously “expensive,” and make the process quite involved and time-consuming. The need for ritual makes some things too spiritually expensive to bother with. That’s why the Mayans didn’t invent space shuttles or shopping malls or backhoes. They live as they do not because it’s a romantic way to live — it’s not; it’s enormously hard — but because it works.

Western culture believes that all material is dead, and so there is no debt incurred when human ingenuity removes something from the other world. Consequently, we end up with shopping malls and space shuttles and other examples of “advanced” technology, while the spirits who give us the ability to make those things are starving, becoming bony and thin, which is one reason why anorexia is such a problem: the young are acting out this image. The universe is in a state of starvation and emotional grief because it has not been given what it needs in the form of ritual food and actual physical gifts. We think we’re getting away with something by stealing from the other side, but it all leads to violence. The Greek oracle at Delphi saw this a long time ago and said, “Woe to humans, the invention of steel.”

I’m not sure if I agree with this payment of spiritual debt thing. But at least for certain societies, they had an inbuilt measure to prevent runaway accumulation and destruction. At any rate, their technology was based on honouring the gifts at hand.

Exploitation of natural resources is not inherently bad, it’s just the manner in which it is done today - a product of our lack of ability to see beyond this culture’s mode of production and materialist philosophy that limits us to thinking technology is evil. It’s not.

For instance, the open pit mine, and its toxic tailing ponds, could easily be designed differently in order to minimize pollution. There are plenty of ecological restorationists who work on mine reclamation. Throw as much money at that as the military industrial complex, and there would be no problem. But the economic bottom line doesn’t allow it. Nor does the psychopathic need for domination. That’s the main thing. And in this case of restoring mine sites, no shamanic sacrifices in the fire necessary.

You might say there will still be destruction even if it’s restored later. Sure. But there must always be something like destruction in 3D creation, or the use of some sort of material, and it’s transformation. Take the example of childbirth. There’s pain, blood, screaming - and new life. That’s the initiatory process of a mother giving birth. Makes no sense to me to complain about the suffering inherent in it. It’s the price to be paid for bringing new life into this world.

In the same way, a hierarchy is very often necessary. Look up hierarchies of competence, as written about in Ponerology. Plenty of material on that. You don’t want a teenager managing an open pit mine. You want a competent professional.

And sometimes coercion is necessary - the C’s recently said slavery in the past was justified because it was a means of training OPs to be more civilized. And a mother will need to dominate her children (a hierarchical relationship) to teach them certain lessons. Etc.

So things are more complex than what you’re presenting. Id suggest you read a bit more on the history of the philosophies of technology, across different societies. Plus keep in mind that the information field is endless in possibility. The C’s have encouraged limitless thinking. If you use the same linear materialist thinking of our everyday lives to approach this question, you’ll come up against a wall. Even more so if you’re already convinced of the conclusion, which appears to be the case.

 

[artofdream]

I would take it from the following angle: Information - Awareness - Intent - FRV
and split your initial post between definition and scope/use.

The facts that any kind of technology leads to :

- environmental destruction (even with the Green Deal scam or, worst, with "free" energy like would be nuclear fusion for instance, which may only aggravate the human impacts on Earth),
- needs an authoritarian society where the exploitation of people and nature at large is the rule,

make me wonder about what the C's and forum members have to say about such an essential question.

The kind of future in store is very limited if we keep destroying life with "Progress" for our materialistic comfort in 3D, and using technological means in order to reach higher levels of evolution seems to be a huge, impossible paradox, isn't it ?

[likely need corrections & adjustments]
How do you define technology? originates from knowledge: Information structured by truth and organized by awareness
How do you use technology? and one's FRV scopes its contextualized application/orientation | mindset

In our current 3rd STS density world, technology at large is thus, more often than not, STS oriented.
However there has been references to techno-spiritual practices/techniques remnants from the 3DSTO Edenic state in the transcripts. Extensive work/researches/books corroborated/expanded/augmented some of these hypotheses in this forum, thus providing us with some of the knowledge to apply (the work, diet, history, ...) to strive enhancing one's FRV toward STO.
Finally, technology has a definition and a contextualized application with the following to keep in regard to the orientation.

STO tends to do the process within the natural flow of things. STS seeks to alter creation processes to fit their ends.

For reference, following feedbacks are returned on Cassiopaean Session Transcripts Search against these keywords: techno-spiritual, engineers, FRV

techno-spiritual | Source: Session 16 July 2009

A: There were elements of the archaic techno-spiritual practice in a couple of them. The first and second were closest in step and pace.

Q: (L) Okay, well, what could be added to the step and the pace to get it closer?

A: One of two ways: dance a spiral with the "bridge" on the turn out of the center or dance a formal maze and the same maneuver on the turns.

Q: (L) I guess the bridge is where they have their hands together and they kind of turn inside out. (DD) Right, that was cool. Is the time signature of the music that they're doing this to of any significance?

A: Yes, but it can be different depending on the aim. Remember that these maneuvers literally change the "field" in which the participants are moving. This can change things on many levels, even including turning DNA on or off.

Q: (L) I once speculated, and I don't remember where I speculated about it, that a human being has a certain field - like a morphic field - and they are connected in various ways to the field in which they interact... that everything else has a field and all these fields interconnect and intersperse, and that people who perform certain formalized maneuvers based on some technology which we don't know or understand, that it's in a sense - because somebody had told me once that information is stored or retrieved on a computer by a single electron being moved in a certain way on a microchip, that it was a pathway that it follows, and that the pathway that it follows means something - so my idea was perhaps human beings in a sense can be like electrons moving within a certain field. If a group of electrons line themselves up and move in a certain way, it adds some sort of considerable - it's like a significant movement of energy - it creates a current. And this creation of a current is like something that enables you to connect to this other realm, this other density. It's almost like you're creating a cord or something, a tube, or some kind of...

A: A "conduit" maybe?

Q: (L) But anyhow, does that idea make sense? (Ark) Well, theoretically it makes sense. But my question is suppose it is done. And it has probably been done by many people. What are the visible consequences?

A: Under the right circumstances, with knowledge, awareness and, most important of all, BEING (letters came very slowly in contrast to the rest of the message, which was fast), there can be openings of portals for many purposes. Remember the Maruts and their baskets? How about a little "travel" if needed for a positive purpose?

Q: (L) Okay, the Maruts were referred to as - they were like all of a special bloodline - and they danced, and their dance produced benefits for the tribe. I mean, the heavens opened, and baskets came down with food and whatever they needed. I mean, it's like the original story of Manna from heaven. Only it wasn't just something tasteless, it was whatever they wanted or needed. Krunchy (healthy cereal)! (laughter)

A: Keep in mind that in order for the techno-spiritual techniques to work, the people of the "blood" must be purified and their chakras must be "connected". If this is done, there are even more important functions. For example: mental blocking of 4D STS attacks. Do you realize that 200 or so people assembled this way, and a block against the marauders could be put in place? Furthermore the wave is coming, the "dancers" could very well determine how it affects your planet and reality. Can you imagine what would happen if the "elite" of your world were cut off from their 4D STS power supply? What if their mind control techniques and frequency fences just "fizzled"?

Engineers | Source: Session 13 January 2024

Q: (L) But essentially, is it the case that all languages are derived in some sense from say, fourth density engineers?
A: Yes
Q: (L) And are those words, are the languages, are they related to the FRV of the group of engineers that are creating a particular group of people?
A: Yes
Q: (L) So that could answer the reason for the difference in languages: It's the difference in FRV or status or orientation of the engineersdoing the work?
A: Yes
Q: (L) And since I just mentioned it, something has always driven me crazy and that's the idea of slaves and slavery. You know, I don't know quite how to ask this, but is slavery a purely STS approach?
A: Mostly. In some cases what was seen as slavery was more like paternal care of young souls recently graduated from 2D.
Q: (L) But I'm assuming that that was way in the past?
A: Yes
Q: (L) So anymore, like within our civilizational history as we understand it, any case would've been purely an STS manifestation?
A: Yes
Q: (L) All right. Next question:
(thorbiorn) Session 23 March 2019:

A: In 4D, eventually it will be your job to engineer lifeforms on new worlds.

New question: Could you say something about what 4D STO does in this capacity? (Compared to 4D STS)
A: Populates worlds and guides them benevolently. SPA.
Q: (L) Oh, how does that compare to 4D STS?
A: 4D STS engineers to be fed and served.
Q: (thorbiorn) Session 26 February 2022:

(L) [...] The C's also said something about that Nordic Covenant business... That peoples of Nordic descent, i.e. Kantekkian, could be of positive or negative orientation. It's representative of a power center in their genetics...

New question: Was the origin of this genetic feature originally a design by STO biogenetic engineers?

FRV | Source: Session 5 August 2000

Q: So, we can forget that one for now. Okay, last session you brought up the subject of Frequency Resonance Vibration. You suggested that there are certain STS forces who are developing or creating or managing physical bodies that they are trying to increase the frequency in so that they will have bodies that are wired so that they can manifest directly into 3rd density, since that seems to be the real barrier that prevents an all-out invasion, the fact that we are in 3rd density and they are in 4th. Now, I assumed that the same function could be true for STO individuals. It seems that many individuals who have come into this time period from the future, coming back into the past via the incarnational cycle so as not to violate free will, have carefully selected bodies with particular DNA, which they are, little by little, activating so that there 4th density selves, or higher, can manifest in this reality. Is it possible for those energies to manifest into such bodies which have been awakened or tuned in 3rd density?

A: STO tends to do the process within the natural flow of things. STS seeks to alter creation processes to fit their ends.

Finally, I tend to align with the following from @iamthatis, though

The C's have said our future is 4D, so the possibilities are potentially endless and far beyond our wildest dreams. So when speaking about a future (of which there are probably many), there's no reason to assume any technology will lead to environmental destruction. Nor is there any reason to assume that any technology needs authoritarian rule.

There have been technologies on 3D earth that weren't wholly destructive and enslaving, and could have been said to be highly STO-aligned. The secret ancient technology is in fact human beings, as Laura wrote in Secret History of the World. Do you remember the discussion of the 'circle people' who sang to the stones and received everything they needed? That's probably the best example I can think of.

We live in an STS realm, so it makes good sense that today's environmental catastrophe, and the main use of today's technology, is mostly a result of psychopaths in power, plus left-brained ignorance. If there was a future where psychopaths were not in power, but there was more of a 'level playing field', and also maybe souls who had more a balance of right and left brains - and also a 4D future of variable physicality - then we can also imagine there is, at the very least, a distinct probability that there will be a technology that is not so damaging to people and planet. There is even a possibility that there will be future technologies that are health-enhancing for All and Everything. OSIT.



Yeah, what's called Progress is a difficult notion to untangle. Heidegger already put his finger on it nearly a hundred years ago in his essay On the Question Concerning Technology. It's one of the key themes in the rise of the West - what precisely has been done in our name? How did we get here? What are the implications? And then there are various philosophical camps who accept it, or reject it, or even ignore it completely.

I think Progress through technology has obviously made lives better. At the same time, it has also made them much worse. As Gurdjieff said, civilization is violence and slavery and fine words. I like how Walter Benjamin describes it, too:



Just as an example, the colonization of Native peoples in the Americas was terrible. But it turns out the C's say it was akin to paying for their time as the violent Atlanteans, so karma is involved. In a way, it could be seen as divine justice. Another example is the various improvements that the bloodthirsty Mongols brought to the people they conquered. Civilizations are weird system that usually improves things through horror and destruction. But that's how nature works, too - a wildfire clears the dead wood and makes room for new growth.

And in the same way, comets are destructive forces, and also forces of regeneration, as noted in Pierre's last book, as well as Randall Carlson's series of essays on the Holy Grail. Destruction and Creation go hand in hand.

I used to spend a lot of time in the anti-Progress, anti-technology, anti-civilization camp. Nowadays, not so much. But I also resist the temptation to romanticize a new techno-future, and become totally pro-Progress. Like, all those high-tech Chinese cities don't impress me much. For me, the question of Progress has become something different than simply choosing a side, it's more of attempting to remember that I don't know much, and so I try to understand how we got here, and bear witness to what's around me.

As for the future in store being very limited, maybe, but I wouldn't say that, either. It depends on what you mean by limited. Maybe things need to be limited for a while so they can grow later one. The universe is infinitely powerful:

Feb 23, 2002:


In the same way, when you are ready to revive your soul, you can bet it will revive. It all depends on which future you attract through your daily choices and actions. That's the Progress that makes sense to me - my own personal Progress in the Work, and my own actions in daily life. I don't worry about using technology as being a paradox, or being trapped in materialism or whatever. I see no paradox. Our world is what it is, and I can't change it, I just do the best I can with what I have in my own little corner. Getting too comfortable and falling asleep, however, is a good one to keep an eye out for, and that's a big trap of technology, which can generally be understood as a labor-saving device. Once we start relying on it too much, it weakens the spirit IMO. Intentional suffering becomes even more important in an era when machines are slowly rocking us to sleep.

 

[Wandering Star]

The industry is polluting, dirty and has many problems for the environment, but this happens because of our STS environment.

It is quite likely that you are more or less good people, so you cannot get an idea of the people who run and produce these industries (all of them, in all sections, from agricultural to industrial).

They don't mind destroying entire forests, polluting rivers, poisoning their own workers, if it means they get more money and power.

There is the knowledge and technology to carry out all tasks, both agricultural and industrial, without contaminating anything and taking care of the planet, but...

Other types of people are needed in charge.

S.T.O.

 

[Esote]

Not being convinced in anything, except about having a subjective conditioned point of view, I guess that with the techno-industrial topic I hit (one of) the most deeply buried collective 'sacred cows'.

The 'Predator's mind' imposed on us ('that came from the depths of the cosmos and took over the rule of our lives' - Castaneda's) might be the reason why our humanity let develop a psychopathic mindset leading to our techno-industrial civilisation, with all its process of unsustainable destruction and mass enslavement in the name of Progress (or rather Profit).
Even 'techno-spiritual techniques' seem dubious to me. For some it would just go against True spirituality.

'All there is is lessons' and is part of our evolution (presently devolution?).
Here we are, dealing with our human 3D STS condition. Sharing and helping one another 'within the natural flow of things' to reach out of the cave (Plato's), that's a great way to follow and why I keep participating in this forum