Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
Palinurus
The Living Force
ka said:
Hi ka,
Thanks for sharing. I agree with your assessment. The website you mentioned is one of the sources I've found but there are more.
I hope to post really soon about it elsewhere but I cannot do so until I've first read those sources and fully understood their implications, in order to make a contribution to the Historical Events Database thread that's really worthwhile for others and for the project as a whole.
I'm sure you'll understand. ;)
ka
Padawan Learner
Palinurus said:
Hi Palinurus:
I DO understand, and appreciate that you don’t want to endorse faulty information.
I’ve had a chance now to look through both the E.L. Martin books I mentioned, and I find that he is a committed Christian believer, with loyalties to Judaism.
However, he arrived at the same date for the Varus War as you did, which may make some of his other chronology useful to us. he does present a lot of data that I haven’t found assembled elsewhere. So, I can’t recommend his all-over point of view, but I am interested.
And I will try to be patient for whatever the team chooses to release, in the confidence that you all are really jealous about keeping to the truth!
Thank you very much for the link. I was looking for an introduction (mostly to show friends and family) subtitled in English of Carotta's work. :D
Palinurus
The Living Force
While researching around yet another obscure passage in Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus, I ran into the very intriguing website of Charles N. Pope about whom I couldn't find nothing more than that he's an American and probably lives somewhere in Texas. This is the site: _http://www.domainofman.com/
In there, I found that he has written a book entitled Alexander the Great: Beyond the Divide which proposes the hypothesis that the life of Jesus was modeled to the template of the life of Alexander the Great -- which might make sense insofar as Caesar himself modeled his own life, warfare and political exploits, to the example of Alexander. I don't know whether that was the case or not, but via the Cs we could ask him personally about that if the need arises.
Anyway, this is how the author introduces his work:
From the way this is worded as well as from the rest of his vast website (a veritable maze of cross referenced entries, of which I've barely scratched the surface after more than a week), one gets the impression that Pope considers any and all ancient texts with historical contents as some sort of roman-à-clef, while history itself is seen as a repetition of archetypal persons, situations, configurations, and so on. In short, the hypothesis of eternal return (Eliade, Nietzsche, and others). Pope is aware of Atwill (among many others, like Carotta and so on), has reviewed his book, and even drew some comments from him with details he left out of the published version. A site search yielded 8 pages of mentions for Atwill alone, so I have decided to make other posts about that in the Historical Events Database thread shortly.
This book is available on his website as a PDF-file after a donation of at least $ 20.-- Just click here to order: _http://www.domainofman.com/donate.html
An abridged version is available on Kindle for $ 8.07 here: _http://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Great-Beyond-Abridged-Version-ebook/dp/B00O4LJP2A
The author posted something about it on the daily grail website recently with a slightly altered title, but withdrew "due to lack of interest" : _http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-Pope/2014/10/Alexander-the-Great-and-the-Grail-Tradition
I have to confess I didn't read the work myself yet, for lack of time and currently different priorities.
I'm only signaling its existence now here for those who might be interested in his angle of approaching these materials. I'm unable to make any judgment about that myself and I feel totally inadequate at the moment vis-a-vis the overwhelming wealth of material amassed on his website -- a feeling I don't experience often I might add.
So, it may well be just another diversion, red herring and a dead end as well; I simply don't know. Sorry about that.
In there, I found that he has written a book entitled Alexander the Great: Beyond the Divide which proposes the hypothesis that the life of Jesus was modeled to the template of the life of Alexander the Great -- which might make sense insofar as Caesar himself modeled his own life, warfare and political exploits, to the example of Alexander. I don't know whether that was the case or not, but via the Cs we could ask him personally about that if the need arises.
Anyway, this is how the author introduces his work:
From the way this is worded as well as from the rest of his vast website (a veritable maze of cross referenced entries, of which I've barely scratched the surface after more than a week), one gets the impression that Pope considers any and all ancient texts with historical contents as some sort of roman-à-clef, while history itself is seen as a repetition of archetypal persons, situations, configurations, and so on. In short, the hypothesis of eternal return (Eliade, Nietzsche, and others). Pope is aware of Atwill (among many others, like Carotta and so on), has reviewed his book, and even drew some comments from him with details he left out of the published version. A site search yielded 8 pages of mentions for Atwill alone, so I have decided to make other posts about that in the Historical Events Database thread shortly.
This book is available on his website as a PDF-file after a donation of at least $ 20.-- Just click here to order: _http://www.domainofman.com/donate.html
An abridged version is available on Kindle for $ 8.07 here: _http://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Great-Beyond-Abridged-Version-ebook/dp/B00O4LJP2A
The author posted something about it on the daily grail website recently with a slightly altered title, but withdrew "due to lack of interest" : _http://www.dailygrail.com/blogs/Charles-Pope/2014/10/Alexander-the-Great-and-the-Grail-Tradition
I have to confess I didn't read the work myself yet, for lack of time and currently different priorities.
I'm only signaling its existence now here for those who might be interested in his angle of approaching these materials. I'm unable to make any judgment about that myself and I feel totally inadequate at the moment vis-a-vis the overwhelming wealth of material amassed on his website -- a feeling I don't experience often I might add.
So, it may well be just another diversion, red herring and a dead end as well; I simply don't know. Sorry about that.
Thank you for taking your time and sharing one more source here. I'll try to get the abridged Kindle edition, for now, as the review you posted caught my interest!
l apprenti de forgeron
The Living Force
There seems to be interesting details to see in Pope's work. [years ago I read "The Archaeology And The Patriarchs." Like an introduction to certain topics on high strangeness and manipulation of history may have been interesting, but not recommendable, if I remember correctly. Maybe I should read it again.]
Thanks for sharing, Palinurus.
Thanks for sharing, Palinurus.
It was common even back in the time of the pharaohs (prior to the Bronze Age collapse) to "re-write" the bio of kings and leaders with miraculous birth stories, fathered/mothered by gods/goddesses, etc. So, from that point of view, the mythicized Jesus birth story could be said to be the same as about any of them.
The Jesus birth story is modeled particularly on the Mithras birth story which is based on even older models so there's really no cigar in noticing this.
What is MOST important about the "Jesus" story is the terrible betrayal/death, being lifted up on a cross/tropheum, and then apotheosis as a god who will do in the heavenly realms what he did on earth, i.e. manifest his great clemency and forgiveness for all who adhere to his example. These elements appear to belong exclusively to Caesar, not Alexander or others. Also, connected with this, is the great, almost universal EMOTIONAL SHOCK, that was manifested at the time of Caesar's murder.
The Jesus birth story is modeled particularly on the Mithras birth story which is based on even older models so there's really no cigar in noticing this.
What is MOST important about the "Jesus" story is the terrible betrayal/death, being lifted up on a cross/tropheum, and then apotheosis as a god who will do in the heavenly realms what he did on earth, i.e. manifest his great clemency and forgiveness for all who adhere to his example. These elements appear to belong exclusively to Caesar, not Alexander or others. Also, connected with this, is the great, almost universal EMOTIONAL SHOCK, that was manifested at the time of Caesar's murder.
Marcion, Paul, and early Christianity
So I've been doing a bit of reading on a few topics. I'll probably post more about them as I learn some more, but for now just wanted to say a few things about Marcion. He was a guy, early 2nd century, and the first "Christian" to make a canon of Christian works, which included an early version of Luke (minus the birth story and the end, and minus Acts) and versions of 10 of Paul's letters. His Gospel and beliefs are only known through his enemies, e.g. Tertullian and Epiphanius, who say he edited the works to his liking, removing the stuff he didn't like. (Marcion was adamant Christianity was not in any way Jewish, and was a bit of a dualist.)
But there are some scholars who think his gospel was original. It makes more sense that Catholic editors added stuff to the versions he had than the opposite. It also provides a reasonable alternative to the "2 source" hypothesis, with Marcion's gospel being a source used for Matthew and Luke. There are a few sites on the Net with attempts to reconstruct his versions, but since they only exist in quotation from later sources, it's hard to be 100% sure about certain parts.
For those curious to check out these reconstructions, see:
_http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/Marcionite_Bible.htm
_http://sgwau2cbeginnings.blogspot.ca/ (this guy is the most radical - he thinks Marcion WAS Paul, and composed the letters himself, and his reconstructions remove most of the Jewish stuff, unattested in the later sources)
And there's a recent book with reconstructions out (haven't checked it out yet), published by the peeps that put out "The Authentic Letters of Paul", which I'm reading right now.
But what I really wanted to mention right now is this:
Syria is where Paul did a lot of his missionary work. We probably wouldn't have Paul's letters today if it weren't for Marcion. Other sources online (haven't verified them yet) say the Syrian spelling of Jesus was ISU, so the name was ISU CHRESTOS, not IESOUS CHRISTOS. IS (IuliuS, as Carotta points out) was a common abbreviation for "Jesus". Khrēstós is Greek for 'good'. As Carotta points out, Plutarch used this adjective to describe Caesar (along with Alexander and Caecilius Metellus, both of whom were deified like Caesar).
So I've been doing a bit of reading on a few topics. I'll probably post more about them as I learn some more, but for now just wanted to say a few things about Marcion. He was a guy, early 2nd century, and the first "Christian" to make a canon of Christian works, which included an early version of Luke (minus the birth story and the end, and minus Acts) and versions of 10 of Paul's letters. His Gospel and beliefs are only known through his enemies, e.g. Tertullian and Epiphanius, who say he edited the works to his liking, removing the stuff he didn't like. (Marcion was adamant Christianity was not in any way Jewish, and was a bit of a dualist.)
But there are some scholars who think his gospel was original. It makes more sense that Catholic editors added stuff to the versions he had than the opposite. It also provides a reasonable alternative to the "2 source" hypothesis, with Marcion's gospel being a source used for Matthew and Luke. There are a few sites on the Net with attempts to reconstruct his versions, but since they only exist in quotation from later sources, it's hard to be 100% sure about certain parts.
For those curious to check out these reconstructions, see:
_http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/Marcionite_Bible.htm
_http://sgwau2cbeginnings.blogspot.ca/ (this guy is the most radical - he thinks Marcion WAS Paul, and composed the letters himself, and his reconstructions remove most of the Jewish stuff, unattested in the later sources)
And there's a recent book with reconstructions out (haven't checked it out yet), published by the peeps that put out "The Authentic Letters of Paul", which I'm reading right now.
But what I really wanted to mention right now is this:
_http://gnosis.org/library/meadmarcion.htm
Syria is where Paul did a lot of his missionary work. We probably wouldn't have Paul's letters today if it weren't for Marcion. Other sources online (haven't verified them yet) say the Syrian spelling of Jesus was ISU, so the name was ISU CHRESTOS, not IESOUS CHRISTOS. IS (IuliuS, as Carotta points out) was a common abbreviation for "Jesus". Khrēstós is Greek for 'good'. As Carotta points out, Plutarch used this adjective to describe Caesar (along with Alexander and Caecilius Metellus, both of whom were deified like Caesar).
Re: Marcion, Paul, and early Christianity
Found a source for the inscription online (not the original, which is in Le Bas and Waddington, Inscriptions vol. iii, no. 2558) here. Looks like Iesous is abbreviated IE (Ἰη), not ISU. But the Marcionites apparently did call Jesus ISU (at least, the Syrian ones did):
_http://books.google.com/books?id=12dxBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&dq=marcion+jesus+isu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UspvVMCGKoOgNrXqg5gI&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=marcion%20jesus%20isu&f=false
_http://books.google.com/books?id=B2VIAQAAIAAJ&q=marcion+jesus+isu&dq=marcion+jesus+isu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UspvVMCGKoOgNrXqg5gI&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ
_http://books.google.com/books?id=sw_rslKdy8AC&pg=PT95&dq=marcion+jesus+isu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UspvVMCGKoOgNrXqg5gI&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=marcion%20jesus%20isu&f=false
Found a source for the inscription online (not the original, which is in Le Bas and Waddington, Inscriptions vol. iii, no. 2558) here. Looks like Iesous is abbreviated IE (Ἰη), not ISU. But the Marcionites apparently did call Jesus ISU (at least, the Syrian ones did):
_http://books.google.com/books?id=12dxBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&dq=marcion+jesus+isu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UspvVMCGKoOgNrXqg5gI&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=marcion%20jesus%20isu&f=false
_http://books.google.com/books?id=B2VIAQAAIAAJ&q=marcion+jesus+isu&dq=marcion+jesus+isu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UspvVMCGKoOgNrXqg5gI&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ
_http://books.google.com/books?id=sw_rslKdy8AC&pg=PT95&dq=marcion+jesus+isu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UspvVMCGKoOgNrXqg5gI&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=marcion%20jesus%20isu&f=false
Re: Marcion, Paul, and early Christianity
Very interesting. In "Forged" by Bart Ehrman there is a small section about Marcion. Apparently this person went to Rome from Asia minor (Sinope) where he was in the ship building business. According to Ehrman, his theology admits the existence of two gods, the lesser god of the ancient testament, who created the world, jealous and revengeful, tied to the materialistic world, and the higher god of a non-human Jesus, with a different character and nature. It looks as if there were some connection with gnostics' duality and maybe some teachings. Tertullian, his opponent, claims according to a note in French Wikipedia that Marcion is epicurian or stoic
Very interesting. In "Forged" by Bart Ehrman there is a small section about Marcion. Apparently this person went to Rome from Asia minor (Sinope) where he was in the ship building business. According to Ehrman, his theology admits the existence of two gods, the lesser god of the ancient testament, who created the world, jealous and revengeful, tied to the materialistic world, and the higher god of a non-human Jesus, with a different character and nature. It looks as if there were some connection with gnostics' duality and maybe some teachings. Tertullian, his opponent, claims according to a note in French Wikipedia that Marcion is epicurian or stoic
Re: Marcion, Paul, and early Christianity
This very, very, early conflict between whether Christ was Jewish or not is furiously interesting. Marcion was sensitive to it probably for good reason, though his solution was a little strange. He didn't conclude the obvious: that the Jewish god probably wasn't the "supreme god" as they claimed, but just a transmogrified tribal god.
This very, very, early conflict between whether Christ was Jewish or not is furiously interesting. Marcion was sensitive to it probably for good reason, though his solution was a little strange. He didn't conclude the obvious: that the Jewish god probably wasn't the "supreme god" as they claimed, but just a transmogrified tribal god.
Re: Marcion, Paul, and early Christianity
Yeah, his conclusion was built on a bad assumption, kind of like:
1) assuming the Jewish books have some basis in reality
and
2) assuming the Gospel has some basis in reality
then
3) because of their contradictions, Yahweh must be a jerk who created the world
What's funny is that anti-Marcion peeps say HE edited Paul and Luke by cutting stuff out to suit his theological agenda. But nowhere in his versions of those works is there ANY evidence that he included/added anything to support his 'weird' theology. There's even stuff in 'his' Gospel that contradicts his theology. So the argument doesn't fly.
Yeah, his conclusion was built on a bad assumption, kind of like:
1) assuming the Jewish books have some basis in reality
and
2) assuming the Gospel has some basis in reality
then
3) because of their contradictions, Yahweh must be a jerk who created the world
What's funny is that anti-Marcion peeps say HE edited Paul and Luke by cutting stuff out to suit his theological agenda. But nowhere in his versions of those works is there ANY evidence that he included/added anything to support his 'weird' theology. There's even stuff in 'his' Gospel that contradicts his theology. So the argument doesn't fly.
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