What programs have YOU discovered?

[RyanX]

This is a topic that deserves daily input from many of you as you discover and observe programs.

I think the biggest program I’ve found has to do with my relationship pattern. I tend to get involved in relationships where I feel the need to be the hero or “save” the person in some way.

I can honestly say that my last three relationships fit this pattern and the ones before that were probably too insignificant to count. Recently I read somewhere that men who carry this attitude tend to mysteriously attract women who are severely wounded in some way, or maybe even pathological. I think Laura has written about how the Universe always sends you that person who reflects exactly who you are at the time. I can definitely see how this has been true with my past relationships!

Part of this, I think, has to do with not having a lot of confidence when it comes to dating and whatnot. It always seemed like I would settle for women who were just basket cases. I hate to call them that, especially now that I realize that I was more of a basket case than I realize. I’ve dated three women who were the victims of rape from a previous relationship (one was a case of incest no less). One of these women was diagnosed with BPD and another who I suspect was at the very least Borderline. I think you get the idea.

In all cases, I didn’t know any of this information from the start, although looking back there were always warning signs from the beginning that something might not be right underneath the surface. Regardless, I didn’t have the right motivations for starting the serious relationships that I did. I wanted to save them or be the Hero and win their love and affection and raise them up from their troubled lives. I was immersed in too much ego thinking at the time to realize just how wrong a mindset this is.

I’m not really sure what to do about this or where the program comes from. I can see how I wasn’t given much meaningful attention as a boy and I’m peripherally aware that this makes me vulnerable to anybody who comes along that gives me “attention” in some way. I can tell this has an affect on me because when somebody, in the sense of a romantic partner, goes from giving me attention to distancing themselves, I can feel all sorts of programs triggered off – if that makes sense. Suddenly a simple misunderstanding becomes a huge deal in my mind and I just feel stupid afterwards. I think this is just paranoia because my predator perceives that it’s going to lose its food.

So what should I do about it? I think I need to do some serious inner-child work. I’ve read a couple of parenting books recently that helped me see some of the ways my own upbringing was lacking, particularly when it came to getting healthy attention from my parents. Believe it or not, playing games and sitting on the couch, cuddled up with my daughters watching movies has been a very therapeutic thing in this regard. I made me realize how much I would have loved to have my own parents give me that sort of healthy attention.

Sorry that this turned out to be more of a swamp post. If the mods feel it is best to move this to the swamp, this is fine with me. Either way, it was good to spend some time thinking and writing about this program of mine. Thanks Laura for reminding me about this thread!

 

[Nienna]

Ryan, maybe you should start doing things for your inner child. Give him some things he didn't have. Pay attention to him and do some things that he would like to do. Mentally tell him that he is loved because YOU love him. Give him mental hugs and tell him that he is safe and loved. If you see something that you would like to get for yourself, then get it. To heck with reasons why you shouldn't. They don't have to be big things. Just something for fun.

Just some thoughts.

 

[EmeraldHope]

This is a topic that deserves daily input from many of you as you discover and observe programs.

I think the biggest program I’ve found has to do with my relationship pattern. I tend to get involved in relationships where I feel the need to be the hero or “save” the person in some way.

Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?

Is it also possible, that women that display some of the behaviours that you mentioned here, seem "exciting" to you in some way?

If you have not read the Big 5 psychology books yet, I think they may benefit you are great deal.


You may also find some useful information here: http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&source=hp&q=relationships-+the+rescuer&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CWn3TYPWDTL9_i4SFBMjj-aAGAAAAqgQFT9Bgvmc&pbx=1&rlz=1R2GGLL_en&fp=2b2990c53e669d73

 

[Beau]

This is a topic that deserves daily input from many of you as you discover and observe programs.

I think the biggest program I’ve found has to do with my relationship pattern. I tend to get involved in relationships where I feel the need to be the hero or “save” the person in some way.

Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?

Is it also possible, that women that display some of the behaviours that you mentioned here, seem "exciting" to you in some way?

I think another possibility is that Ryan falls for the waif/feminine vampire archetype who purposefully feed off and attract men who have that savior mentality. They display all the "right" characteristics to activate your hero programs. Perhaps another read through Unholy Hungers would do you good?

 

[herondancer]

Hmm....

This is a topic that deserves daily input from many of you as you discover and observe programs.

I think the biggest program I’ve found has to do with my relationship pattern. I tend to get involved in relationships where I feel the need to be the hero or “save” the person in some way.

Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?

Is it also possible, that women that display some of the behaviours that you mentioned here, seem "exciting" to you in some way?

That might be possible, but just as Heimdallr says, it could be other than a power issue, i.e., if the rescuer had such poor self-esteem, they unconsciously felt only partners they worthy of were those more damaged than themselves. I've observed several relationships with this dynamic. In fact, the person being rescued tended to be the dominant one, to the detriment of the rescuer.

And true intimacy is impossible in any relationship where there is a power imbalance, regardless of the kinds of inter-locking programs that create it.

 

[EmeraldHope]

Hmm....

This is a topic that deserves daily input from many of you as you discover and observe programs.

I think the biggest program I’ve found has to do with my relationship pattern. I tend to get involved in relationships where I feel the need to be the hero or “save” the person in some way.

Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?

Is it also possible, that women that display some of the behaviours that you mentioned here, seem "exciting" to you in some way?

That might be possible, but just as Heimdallr says, it could be other than a power issue, i.e., if the rescuer had such poor self-esteem, they unconsciously felt only partners they worthy of were those more damaged than themselves. I've observed several relationships with this dynamic. In fact, the person being rescued tended to be the dominant one, to the detriment of the rescuer.
And true intimacy is impossible in any relationship where there is a power imbalance, regardless of the kinds of inter-locking programs that create it.

I agree. I was practicing framing my responses in the form of questions as Laura had suggested to enhance my skills . The link that I gave him above goes to information about the " rescuer" syndrome and addresses these very things, as well as others. The big 5 books of course will address the core issues.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: What programs have YOU discovered?

That might be possible, but just as Heimdallr says, it could be other than a power issue, i.e., if the rescuer had such poor self-esteem, they unconsciously felt only partners they worthy of were those more damaged than themselves. I've observed several relationships with this dynamic. In fact, the person being rescued tended to be the dominant one, to the detriment of the rescuer.

And true intimacy is impossible in any relationship where there is a power imbalance, regardless of the kinds of inter-locking programs that create it.

That's very interesting, thanks. Like Ryan I also have the need to be the hero or save the person in some way. I think the hero program is pretty complex. There is some sincerity to it, lots of lying of course and some selfishness too. You recognize the hurt, which I think is the sincerity part and mostly it should stop there...

So this is what I've observed in myself, and it's how I've been thinking about it. Any mirrors welcome. I could always be wrong.

You start liking a girl, well let's not say you, but your programs start liking a girl, and you start getting to know her. And when you do, you already (or so you think) have discovered where the girl's "unhappiness" might come from and that you could help her with "becoming happy". This doesn't mean she is unhappy, and even if she is, she hasn't said she wants you to make her happy. So selfishness kicks in here, you are determining her needs. But then, there are also girls who tell you they're unhappy and want you to make them happy, well not in those exact terms, but you know what I mean. I'm guessing both types could be vampiric. And in both cases there is determining their needs from your side, because their understanding of 'needs' might differ from how you understand it. Or her needs were clear to some extent, but you decided to change your plans at some point and wanted to 'help' her more than she ever asked for.

At the same time, you might or might not recognize you don't give the same 'heroic' attention to the other people around you (including yourself), you mostly give it to her. Especially when she is around, she gets your full heroic attention. This is because at the same time, you want her attention, you want to feed from her. And she would probably use you, or feed from you, either way, there's a high chance it will be an imbalanced relationship because it all started for the wrong reasons. It's not love, imo, and also not really about making each other happy, it's mostly just feeding.

The sad part I think is, that you were the one who needed help. You can't deny you loved her attention sometimes, that you were longing for it. You have holes in your heart, caused by your childhood perhaps, but she can't fill them, because she can't see them, hell, you might not even see them or understand them yourself. You just know there is this empty place inside of you. All those moments, she was just covering the holes, not filling them.
We've always needed help, support, love, understanding... instead of trying to work on that ourselves, or even acknowledge that, we hide it away, we lie to ourselves that we are able to help others instead. But in the end, we find ourselves broken. Unsuccessful maybe, too. The heroic plan did not work.

The key I think is to acknowledge that we need help too, we are victims too, and we are not necessarily stronger than others, or more knowledgeable than others. We are just who we are, who we think we are and we do what we think is the best thing to do, which is Working on ourselves and help spreading the truth, in some way or another, THIS is how we help ourselves. We also should not think that others are necessarily stronger than us, or more knowledgeable than us. Of course there might be, such as some people in this forum, but still as a rule, keep all options open and be there to learn. If you wanna be a hero, be one for yourself, be one for Life itself, and who knows what Life will bring to you. We cannot take very lives in our own hands and start helping people out while sacrificing our own lives, we're no doctors or therapists, but we can give tips and advices, share a little info here and there, but not be personal trainers... PLUS a lot of effort has to come from the other side as well. And it is not nice to ignore or violate the Free Will of others for your own selfish desires masked by a fake heroic program.

And someone once said:
"Learn to see the person and like them for who they are and how they treat you, instead of how much they resemble the person you want to save."

 

[EmeraldHope]

Re: What programs have YOU discovered?

That might be possible, but just as Heimdallr says, it could be other than a power issue, i.e., if the rescuer had such poor self-esteem, they unconsciously felt only partners they worthy of were those more damaged than themselves. I've observed several relationships with this dynamic. In fact, the person being rescued tended to be the dominant one, to the detriment of the rescuer.

And true intimacy is impossible in any relationship where there is a power imbalance, regardless of the kinds of inter-locking programs that create it.

That's very interesting, thanks. Like Ryan I also have the need to be the hero or save the person in some way. I think the hero program is pretty complex. There is some sincerity to it, lots of lying of course and some selfishness too. You recognize the hurt, which I think is the sincerity part and mostly it should stop there...

So this is what I've observed in myself, and it's how I've been thinking about it. Any mirrors welcome. I could always be wrong.

You start liking a girl, well let's not say you, but your programs start liking a girl, and you start getting to know her. And when you do, you already (or so you think) have discovered where the girl's "unhappiness" might come from and that you could help her with "becoming happy". This doesn't mean she is unhappy, and even if she is, she hasn't said she wants you to make her happy. So selfishness kicks in here, you are determining her needs. But then, there are also girls who tell you they're unhappy and want you to make them happy, well not in those exact terms, but you know what I mean. I'm guessing both types could be vampiric. And in both cases there is determining their needs from your side, because their understanding of 'needs' might differ from how you understand it. Or her needs were clear to some extent, but you decided to change your plans at some point and wanted to 'help' her more than she ever asked for.

At the same time, you might or might not recognize you don't give the same 'heroic' attention to the other people around you (including yourself), you mostly give it to her. Especially when she is around, she gets your full heroic attention. This is because at the same time, you want her attention, you want to feed from her. And she would probably use you, or feed from you, either way, there's a high chance it will be an imbalanced relationship because it all started for the wrong reasons. It's not love, imo, and also not really about making each other happy, it's mostly just feeding.

The sad part I think is, that you were the one who needed help. You can't deny you loved her attention sometimes, that you were longing for it. You have holes in your heart, caused by your childhood perhaps, but she can't fill them, because she can't see them, hell, you might not even see them or understand them yourself. You just know there is this empty place inside of you. All those moments, she was just covering the holes, not filling them.
We've always needed help, support, love, understanding... instead of trying to work on that ourselves, or even acknowledge that, we hide it away, we lie to ourselves that we are able to help others instead. But in the end, we find ourselves broken. Unsuccessful maybe, too. The heroic plan did not work.

In my original response, I had asked- "Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?"


I just remembered an article which addresses this part of what I was asking pretty well, and I will quote an excerpt:

THE CAREGIVER EQUATES BEING NEEDED, WITH BEING LOVED.

Your caregiving nature is drawn to codependent relationship dynamics with friends or lovers who are either handicapped, in crisis, emotionally/sexually underdeveloped, substance addicted or in recovery/rehab. You've unwittingly selected partners whose self-esteem is flagging, or whom in some way need rescuing--or extreme amounts of support or nurturing. Quite often, feelings of boredom or emptiness will prompt phone calls to friends who allow you to fuel/fix them with 'pep talks' or emotional/psychological bolstering, and you feel better afterward. Occasionally, you'll romantically connect with someone who initially shows promise or "potential," only to be disappointed and angry at the end of this relationship, having carried the financial and/or emotional weight for both of you! The subconscious theme that underlies this pairing process is: "If you NEED me, you'll never leave me."

In the rare event a selected lover presents as self-sufficient and non-needy, Caregivers are still compelled to encourage some level of dependency. This can be demonstrated by attempts to subtly undermine a partner's confidence in body image, wardrobe preference, dietary habits, work proficiency, sexual adequacy, etc. Basically, if there's opportunity to create (at least) an illusion of being indispensable and needed, abandonment concerns are averted. This behavior is driven by our subconscious determination to maintain inequity in relationships, for the one who needs the least is always the one in power.

Partners may unwittingly undermine themselves by losing jobs, getting sick, failing, etc., to be complicit with the dynamic you've needed to maintain in the relationship. There's always a payoff in this--as the unspoken agreement or 'contract' you two created when you first joined, remains intact.

When a mate/partner is perceived as diminished (or less than) you feel more secure, in that you can control the relationship dynamic and manipulate its emotional climate to suit internal comfort levels. In truth, feeling needed is enhancing to your self-image, and reinforces a sense of well-being/safety; but if a lover gains some empowerment and develops a more equal footing, your Caregiver prowess feels suddenly diluted. This is when your emotional equilibrium is compromised and abandonment anxiety surfaces, prompting either sabotaging or clinging behaviors. Selection strategy generally insures against this outcome, as you will turn away from lovers or friends who are capable of meeting you on a more balanced playing field. Healthier choices require authentic self-esteem, which you may never have had opportunity to develop. You'll naturally guard against anybody discovering this secret, as covert shame (a remnant from childhood) steers you away from more viable, fully-integrated people who might notice your fragility and/or shortcomings.

The full article is available here: _http://www.sharischreiber.com/needlove.html

 

[anart]

Re: What programs have YOU discovered?

In my original response, I had asked- "Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?"

Often, 'saving someone' is the height of narcissism. Also, it is quite important to remember that there can be no real intimacy without real love and the VAST majority of human beings cannot even approach real love, much less express it and live it. As the C's said, we tend to confuse the issue of love horribly - and often take 'need' for love or 'control' for love or brain chemicals for love. Sleeping mechanical humanity can no more love and have real intimacy than it can observe and understand its own state of being. I suppose my question at this point would be, "what do you think 'real intimacy' is?"

 

[EmeraldHope]

Re: What programs have YOU discovered?

In my original response, I had asked- "Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?"

Often, 'saving someone' is the height of narcissism. Also, it is quite important to remember that there can be no real intimacy without real love and the VAST majority of human beings cannot even approach real love, much less express it and live it. As the C's said, we tend to confuse the issue of love horribly - and often take 'need' for love or 'control' for love or brain chemicals for love. Sleeping mechanical humanity can no more love and have real intimacy than it can observe and understand its own state of being. I suppose my question at this point would be, "what do you think 'real intimacy' is?"

For me personally, where I am right now, I think that intimacy in a physcial realtionship would be along the lines of a relationship between myself and someone else who was also doing the work, accepting each other fully, communicating honestly, and also working on an ideal bigger than ourselves. Ark and Laura's relationship comes to mind as an example of intimacy in that regards. I personally am not in a relationship, but this would be my ideal, and my idea of intimacy.

Saving someone is ineed narcissistic, which is why the big 5 books are so important. I try to keep in mind that all of those reading this, are at different phases of their growth and may or may not want to end up in the same place that I do. So when I respond, I am trying to address where the person posting is giving me clues as to where the are right now, to the best of my ability. In my mind, they have to get the basics of the dynamics before they can even pose the question of real intimacy, in the manner I describe above. So in posting this question, I mean intimacy being defined as a more healthy way of relating to dating partners, making better choices, and developing a real closeness- not simply choosing and responding based on programs and feeding patterns.

 

[anart]

Re: What programs have YOU discovered?

For me personally, where I am right now, I think that intimacy in a physcial realtionship would be along the lines of a relationship between myself and someone else who was also doing the work, accepting each other fully, communicating honestly, and also working on an ideal bigger than ourselves. Ark and Laura's relationship comes to mind as an example of intimacy in that regards. I personally am not in a relationship, but this would be my ideal, and my idea of intimacy.

I think that's an accurate ideal. It's also the case that the ideal and the manifestation of the ideal are often worlds apart - but therein lies the learning.

Saving someone is ineed narcissistic, which is why the big 5 books are so important.

True, it's what they reveal about ourselves, much more than others, that matters.

I try to keep in mind that all of those reading this, are at different phases of their growth and may or may not want to end up in the same place that I do. So when I respond, I am trying to address where the person posting is giving me clues as to where the are right now, to the best of my ability.

That's interesting because it sounds like you are focusing more on 'where others are' than 'where you are'. What this might (or might not) indicate is that you are not looking at your own level of development as much as you are looking at the level of others. In short, you're paying more attention to what others need to learn (by your definition) than what you need to learn. This is a really common and really great way to avoid looking at ourselves.

In my mind, they have to get the basics of the dynamics before they can even pose the question of real intimacy, in the manner I describe above.

And what do you have to get? I'm not asking that to be offensive at all, I'm just trying to offer the possibility that when constantly thinking about what others need to understand or perceive, we often lose the most important aspect, which is what WE have to understand and perceive.

So in posting this question, I mean intimacy being defined as a more healthy way of relating to dating partners, making better choices, and developing a real closeness- not simply choosing and responding based on programs and feeding patterns.

And, as I said, there is no real intimacy between sleeping machines. The VAST majority of human beings are sleeping machines. It really comes back to the Work - to the horror of the situation that talking about intimacy between sleeping machines is folly and wiseacring. In most people, there are hundreds of 'i's that come between them and their supposed beloved - all day, every day, hundreds of 'i's' get in the way. But, I suppose I digress since I tend to take things to their core, and at the end of the day, until a human being begins to deal with their programs and their mechanical nature, intimacy of any kind is the farthest thing from them.

 

[EmeraldHope]

Quote from anart;

That's interesting because it sounds like you are focusing more on 'where others are' than 'where you are'. What this might (or might not) indicate is that you are not looking at your own level of development as much as you are looking at the level of others. In short, you're paying more attention to what others need to learn (by your definition) than what you need to learn. This is a really common and really great way to avoid looking at ourselves.

That is not exactly true. What I am trying to do, actually, is attempt to help where others are asking, based on what I know. I am slo attempting to develop an accurate way of relating to and communicating with the forum. That is directly related to my development level and it is an area I am finding difficult right now.
I beleive so much in everything you all do, and it took a lot of work for me to even join in on a real level here, although I have wanted to for a very long time. I do not have very much experience with relating within a group. It may be helpful for you to read my posted reply to Laura in this thread, here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=17777.0 I have to start in areas I feel more comfortable with, and there is no way I can convery to you how difficult it is for me, as I am sure it makes little sense.

Quote from anart

And what do you have to get? I'm not asking that to be offensive at all, I'm just trying to offer the possibility that when constantly thinking about what others need to understand or perceive, we often lose the most important aspect, which is what WE have to understand and perceive.

Again, I am trying to be helpful, in the best way I know how. Perhaps my wording is wrong.


Quote from anart

And, as I said, there is no real intimacy between sleeping machines. The VAST majority of human beings are sleeping machines. It really comes back to the Work - to the horror of the situation that talking about intimacy between sleeping machines is folly and wiseacring. In most people, there are hundreds of 'i's that come between them and their supposed beloved - all day, every day, hundreds of 'i's' get in the way. But, I suppose I digress since I tend to take things to their core, and at the end of the day, until a human being begins to deal with their programs and their mechanical nature, intimacy of any kind is the farthest thing from them.

I am sorry that I ever used a reference with the word intimacy in it. I was trying to help with the overall dynamic.

 

[anart]

Quote from anart;

That's interesting because it sounds like you are focusing more on 'where others are' than 'where you are'. What this might (or might not) indicate is that you are not looking at your own level of development as much as you are looking at the level of others. In short, you're paying more attention to what others need to learn (by your definition) than what you need to learn. This is a really common and really great way to avoid looking at ourselves.

That is not exactly true. What I am trying to do, actually, is attempt to help where others are asking, based on what I know. I am slo attempting to develop an accurate way of relating to and communicating with the forum. That is directly related to my development level and it is an area I am finding difficult right now.
I beleive so much in everything you all do, and it took a lot of work for me to even join in on a real level here, although I have wanted to for a very long time. I do not have very much experience with relating within a group. It may be helpful for you to read my posted reply to Laura in this thread, here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=17777.0 I have to start in areas I feel more comfortable with, and there is no way I can convery to you how difficult it is for me, as I am sure it makes little sense.

I read your other thread when you posted it, and it makes sense. It might be helpful to remember that input is merely that and to not get defensive or take it as criticism. Most people on this forum have exactly the same thoughts and trepidations as you have had, so there is really no reason to identify with that or use it as some sort of shield to hide behind. We are all very similar in that regard.

Again, I am trying to be helpful, in the best way I know how. Perhaps my wording is wrong.

No, I don't think your wording is wrong. I was just referring to the idea that before we can direct others, we must have cleared out a lot of things ourselves, otherwise we are directing others from our own programs/noise that we've picked up throughout our lives. This is why - always and in everything - it is so important to work on ourselves first - long before we try to 'help others'.

I am sorry that I ever used a reference with the word intimacy in it. I was trying to help with the overall dynamic.

Why would you be sorry when all there is is lessons? :)

 

[RyanX]

Ryan, maybe you should start doing things for your inner child. Give him some things he didn't have. Pay attention to him and do some things that he would like to do. Mentally tell him that he is loved because YOU love him. Give him mental hugs and tell him that he is safe and loved. If you see something that you would like to get for yourself, then get it. To heck with reasons why you shouldn't. They don't have to be big things. Just something for fun.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks Nienna, this is good advise. I need to make it a point to sit down by myself and listen to this inner voice and give it some comfort. I'm not a total stranger to this, but I think I also have a ways to go yet. I will keep this in mind.

Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?

Is it also possible, that women that display some of the behaviours that you mentioned here, seem "exciting" to you in some way?

If you have not read the Big 5 psychology books yet, I think they may benefit you are great deal.


You may also find some useful information here: http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&source=hp&q=relationships-+the+rescuer&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CWn3TYPWDTL9_i4SFBMjj-aAGAAAAqgQFT9Bgvmc&pbx=1&rlz=1R2GGLL_en&fp=2b2990c53e669d73

Thanks EmeraldHope.

I don't think it's a matter of avoiding intimacy. I only say that because I can't honestly say I understand what "intimacy" really is. So in that sense, this program (along with others) prevents me from even understanding what intimacy is, OSIT.

Do I feel like I need to have the upper hand in relationships? I don't know. It certainly seems that in my last three relationships there were power struggles, but it was never completely one sided that I recall. I mean, I have NO idea what a co-linear relationship would be like, I only understand this concept intellectually. How many people can claim they've experienced one? It seems pretty rare to me. Anything less than co-linear is inevitably going to devolve into overt or subtle power struggles, or so it seems...

The link you provided was helpful. I could definitely see myself fitting part of the "rescuer" profile.

I've read the Big 5 psychology books, but I could probably brush up on them again since it's been over a year.

I think another possibility is that Ryan falls for the waif/feminine vampire archetype who purposefully feed off and attract men who have that savior mentality. They display all the "right" characteristics to activate your hero programs. Perhaps another read through Unholy Hungers would do you good?

Yes, I think I should re-read it again! This gets back to what I posted in my original post about this program, about how carrying this attitude, this mentality of the "hero" or "rescuer", inevitably leads to attracting partners would would feed on that weakness. It just goes to show that until the program is dealt with at the root level, the same pattern will inevitably erupt again and again.

Hmm....

Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?

Is it also possible, that women that display some of the behaviours that you mentioned here, seem "exciting" to you in some way?

That might be possible, but just as Heimdallr says, it could be other than a power issue, i.e., if the rescuer had such poor self-esteem, they unconsciously felt only partners they worthy of were those more damaged than themselves. I've observed several relationships with this dynamic. In fact, the person being rescued tended to be the dominant one, to the detriment of the rescuer.

And true intimacy is impossible in any relationship where there is a power imbalance, regardless of the kinds of inter-locking programs that create it.

Herondancer,

For some reason the part that I bolded above stands out as being remarkably true in my situation. I'm going to have to ponder this some more. Thanks.

At the same time, you might or might not recognize you don't give the same 'heroic' attention to the other people around you (including yourself), you mostly give it to her. Especially when she is around, she gets your full heroic attention. This is because at the same time, you want her attention, you want to feed from her. And she would probably use you, or feed from you, either way, there's a high chance it will be an imbalanced relationship because it all started for the wrong reasons. It's not love, imo, and also not really about making each other happy, it's mostly just feeding.

<snip>

The key I think is to acknowledge that we need help too, we are victims too, and we are not necessarily stronger than others, or more knowledgeable than others. We are just who we are, who we think we are and we do what we think is the best thing to do, which is Working on ourselves and help spreading the truth, in some way or another, THIS is how we help ourselves. We also should not think that others are necessarily stronger than us, or more knowledgeable than us. Of course there might be, such as some people in this forum, but still as a rule, keep all options open and be there to learn. If you wanna be a hero, be one for yourself, be one for Life itself, and who knows what Life will bring to you. We cannot take very lives in our own hands and start helping people out while sacrificing our own lives, we're no doctors or therapists, but we can give tips and advices, share a little info here and there, but not be personal trainers... PLUS a lot of effort has to come from the other side as well. And it is not nice to ignore or violate the Free Will of others for your own selfish desires masked by a fake heroic program.

Oxajil,

This makes a lot of sense. I've highlighted a couple of points that stick out to me. I've accepted as a working hypothesis that until I can learn to help others unconditionally and with no expectation of feedback or reward in return, this program will still linger. This is, obviously, still a work in progress.

Can I ask how you see this program as relating to your own situation?

In my original response, I had asked- "Is it possible that by " saving" someone you subconciously think that you retain the upper hand, or control, so to speak, in the relationship? In other words, is it a way to aviod real intimacy?"

Often, 'saving someone' is the height of narcissism. Also, it is quite important to remember that there can be no real intimacy without real love and the VAST majority of human beings cannot even approach real love, much less express it and live it. As the C's said, we tend to confuse the issue of love horribly - and often take 'need' for love or 'control' for love or brain chemicals for love. Sleeping mechanical humanity can no more love and have real intimacy than it can observe and understand its own state of being. I suppose my question at this point would be, "what do you think 'real intimacy' is?"

This is a good reminder Anart. 'Saving someone' presumes one has all the answers, is all knowledgable, and knows more about a person than that person could know about themselves. It is the highest form of "determining the needs of others", which ironically is more of an obsession of the self than genuine concern for others. Of course, I never saw it that way while in these relationships. I can see it now and it makes me sad knowing the problems this caused my partners. All I can say at this point is that I have a lot more to learn...

 

[EmeraldHope]

Quote from anart;

That's interesting because it sounds like you are focusing more on 'where others are' than 'where you are'. What this might (or might not) indicate is that you are not looking at your own level of development as much as you are looking at the level of others. In short, you're paying more attention to what others need to learn (by your definition) than what you need to learn. This is a really common and really great way to avoid looking at ourselves.

That is not exactly true. What I am trying to do, actually, is attempt to help where others are asking, based on what I know. I am slo attempting to develop an accurate way of relating to and communicating with the forum. That is directly related to my development level and it is an area I am finding difficult right now.
I beleive so much in everything you all do, and it took a lot of work for me to even join in on a real level here, although I have wanted to for a very long time. I do not have very much experience with relating within a group. It may be helpful for you to read my posted reply to Laura in this thread, here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=17777.0 I have to start in areas I feel more comfortable with, and there is no way I can convery to you how difficult it is for me, as I am sure it makes little sense.

I read your other thread when you posted it, and it makes sense. It might be helpful to remember that input is merely that and to not get defensive or take it as criticism. Most people on this forum have exactly the same thoughts and trepidations as you have had, so there is really no reason to identify with that or use it as some sort of shield to hide behind. We are all very similar in that regard.

Again, I am trying to be helpful, in the best way I know how. Perhaps my wording is wrong.

No, I don't think your wording is wrong. I was just referring to the idea that before we can direct others, we must have cleared out a lot of things ourselves, otherwise we are directing others from our own programs/noise that we've picked up throughout our lives. This is why - always and in everything - it is so important to work on ourselves first - long before we try to 'help others'.

I am sorry that I ever used a reference with the word intimacy in it. I was trying to help with the overall dynamic.

Why would you be sorry when all there is is lessons? :)

Anart ,I am not trying to hide behind a shield, or identify with it. I am just being very honest. It has been my experience, in the past, that unless I am very honest , I cannot address an issue properly.

I guess it boils down to this, I feel like on the one hand, I should just sit back again and not inject anything, because I am not done working on myself yet. How long will I be sitting? Then on the other hand, I know I need to relate here because I believe so much in everything that is being done and I want to help and also contine to grow , so I can in turn help more, but if I do not jump in and start somethwere, I am back to square one. I also am not being defensive per se, I just feel misunderstood in the context of what I was trying to accomplish.

I am sorry I used the word because it was only a small part of the point I was trying to make overall, and the back and forth with you that has resulted from using it is very frusturating to me. And yes, I do know there is a lesson in that.